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Is Human Compassion Illogical?

Fatmanonice

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Link to original post: [drupal=1868]Is Human Compassion Illogical? [/drupal]


These thoughts are based on a rather brief conversation my Evolutionary Studies professor and I had last semester. Is human compassion illogical? Before I start, I’d simply define compassion as caring for people who are suffering from some sort of misfortune whether minor or grandiose. To give everyone some background on the topic ahead, here are some things to consider. When life is viewed through an evolutionary lens, its purpose is to survive long enough to reproduce offspring. Basically, as long as you are involved in the creation of one child at some point in time, your life isn’t meaningless. You don’t even have to take care of your kids if you don’t want to because, once they’re past a certain age, it’s supposed to be their responsibility to keep themselves alive. All of this may sound cruel but keep in mind that this is evolutionary theory and, as such, it has about as much emotion attached to it as a phone book.

Compassion is a rarity in nature. Weaker offspring will usually be abandoned, purposely neglected, or killed by their siblings or even their parents. Mutants and cripples are given the same treatment. The discussion between my professor and I had to do with humans raising and caring for other humans with abnormalities and “unfit” characteristics (ie; characteristics that may decrease your chances of reproducing like being ugly or fat). Under evolutionary theory, this could be viewed as extremely illogical because it takes away energy from caring for humans with fit characteristics and possibly taint the gene pool. For example, if an ugly person with “strong genes” reproduces with a normal person, then that greatly increases the chance of them producing ugly “unfit” kids and be, overall, counterproductive to the future of the human species. This becomes even more so with mutants (in the negative sense) and people with physical handicaps. Oddly enough, this could be seen as slightly logical when shown in a different light. Under a different theory, keeping these children alive gives a community more individuals who are capable of reproducing given their abnormalities don’t entirely prevent it. Even if it ends up being bad for the gene pool, it produces more offspring who have the potential to reproduce as well.

Obviously, these are not what are going through people’s minds when they are raising kids now-a-days but did compassion evolve from our own instincts or does it have another source? This has been one of the long standing debates in ethics: where did ethics and rules of social conduct even come from? In basic human ethics, it is generally viewed as wrong to kill someone but, under evolutionary theory, it’s fully excused because you are merely increasing your own chances of survival by eliminating competition and, besides, your victim deserved it for being ill prepared for your onslaught. Stealing is also generally seen as wrong but, again, under evolutionary theory it’s excused to ensure your own survival. Could it be that the purpose of ethics is to create an environment more suited for reproduction? If so, how did humanity come to such a conclusion and, even more puzzling, how was it decided that the well being of a community was more important than the well being of a species when, technically, weaker individuals of are not “punished” for being less “fit”? As I’ve pointed out, if this is by instinct, it is highly illogical in terms of basic evolutionary theory and detrimental to the human race but, if it is by another source, how did humanity reach such a complex conclusion that goes against evolutionary theory and still manages to be successful although not to its full potential like it supposedly ought to be?

What makes humans so much different from other animals? Obviously, there is our intelligence but even then there are definitely varying degrees of it thus suggesting that evolutionary theory should still be in play but, as I’ve sort of outlined, humanity has gone against these boundaries despite being animals ourselves. Has humanity created its own “breed” of evolution that’s entirely different from any other species? Has our evolution evolved itself into more of a sociological or technological based system rather than biological?

It is questions like this that keep me in awe of life itself and how astoundingly complex it really is. Chances are these questions will never be truly answered due to varying opinions but it shows what a thrill that learning and thinking are all onto themselves even when they produce nothing but dead ends. Mahatma Gandhi once said “Live like you were to die tomorrow and learn like you were to live forever.” On this closing note, I’d like to know what this blog has made you think about and I’d love to see other theories as well.
 

:mad:

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I think human compassion is perfectly legal.
I don't see why it should be considered illegal.
 

OutlawStar

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Hmmm, I never really thought about it this way,
it sure raises a lot of questions on how complex we
really are. Cats have love too, they don't kill the weak
ones, I guess killing the "unfit" is only in the wild, where
you really need to survive, in our domesticated and 'safe'
world, you don't have to worry as much on surviving, because
we are a community! :)
 

Chaco

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Well from my quick skim read I have a few comments. First off, comparing our society to the animal kingdom isn't a good comparison and never has been. It sooo much different. We have the capabilities and know how to give these "mutants" and weaker offspring a chance at life. Plus as human beings we feel the need to help others. Well, most do. We have our basic needs covered so we can focus more on these things.

Animals however have to worry about their basic needs as it can drastically change for them quickly. It's natural selection for them as well.

I only anwsered to a tiny bit of that, but I saw it and wanted too.
 

Oracle

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Humans used to not have compassion

The top priority in human nature is to keep the species going, meaning saving every life possible. We feel compassion and we want to help because we can. if we couldn't help those who suffered, then nature probably would tell us to abandon them
 

Frown

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I love topics about evolution.

I think compassion is needed in order to make a group of such intelligent creatures stick together. A human doesn't survive alone.
 

Sosuke

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Well, unlike humans, animals can't always take care of the ill/ handicapped. So they toss them aside in hopes of getting another animal that can take care of itself and stuff.

And with the ugly kids? Who cares? Who judges who's ugly or not? As long as you don't have some big defect like a missing arm or something, what does it matter? "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", so going with the "majority" is just stupid.

For the killing and stealing, but people often think of those things as "unfair". You could compare it to MK's IDC. "Well, I can do it, so why not"? And it increases your chances of "survival" indefinitely. But your life isn't at that big a risk to have to resort to such things most of the time.

If we just stopped taking care of the weak, we'd be screwed. What if someone gets sick? No hospital/doctor, right? Well what if there's an outbreak? Everyone dies? if the president gets sick? oh well? Going out of our way to take care of the weak isn't really a bad thing. It's pretty much the reason humans still exist.


Compassion is just like, idk, needed almost. A lot of people have it due to religion I guess and not going to hell and all that jazz. But, i mean, that whole "what if that was me?" thing gets to you. It only seems fair to help, I guess.
 

Fatmanonice

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Without attaching any theology, philosophy, or human emotion to it, the meaning of life is rather simple, if not to the point of being insulting. You have to be careful with this way of thinking though because countless philosphers have commited suicide from dwelling too much on it. Really, every individual person decides for themselves what the meaning of life is and, if anything, it's a trivial pursuit to think anyone else can tell you what it is.
 

RyuReiatsu

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Emotions are pretty much illogical.

/thread
Yes.

Humanity is pretty much illogical, then.

/thread
And Yes.

Well yeah, life is pointless pretty much. The universe doesn't really need it at all. The universe is pointless, why is it even there?
Good question.

Hell what's the point of anything really? It'd be easier with everything gone tbqh.
That leads to another existential question... Which will lead to another one and another one and another one. In the end, no real answer. Only questions.
 

Lily

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Honestly, animals are capable of feeling compassion just as we are. They can feel hate, love, angst, empathy and sorrow too.

There are reports of mother gorilla's babies dying, and the mother is obviously upset and in shock. She is unable to accept that her baby is no longer living. She cradles her baby and mourns the loss. That is compassion.

There are also reports of a pod of dolphins going out of their way to protect humans from a shark attack. Can you tell me that they don't feel empathy? They weren't benefiting anything from the situation.

Just the other day, I saw a tragic scene unfold on the roadway. A mother and father bonded pair of mallard ducks were crossing the street. The pregnant mother was hit by a speeding car and I turned around in shock to see the male on top of the lifeless female flapping it's wings trying to get her to get up. It was so sad. I felt so terrible. Can you tell me that's not compassion? I think not.

Lovebirds in captivity mate for life and when one of them dies, often the other will die soon after of a "broken heart". I had a pair of bonded lovebirds growing up, and this happened to me. Animals are as capable as having compassion as we are.

We as human beings began to evolve really once we had an abundance of time. We weren't busy running around, gathering food and worrying about surviving so much. I believe that this is where the line crosses from natural selection to the capability of having feelings.

Human compassion is most definitely logical. In fact, it is necessary for our species to evolve.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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I think that might be the best first post ever Lily. I think you should go to the debate hall. can't really say much on the subject , because alll to say has been covered


to the thing about life being pointless. How did you come up with that? think lift is a what? A gift and what do you do with a gift? you open it and enjoy it and if nothing was there then that point would be to fill it up. like a box.
 

Fatmanonice

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So much atheism. lol
I'm an agnostic theist. This means that I do not know if there is a God or not but I will at least entertain the idea. I do not believe in the God as the Christian Bible describes because I believe that Christianity has too many dead ends and logical fallacies. I fully support the moral teachings of the religion and am even a member of two churchs (due to the fact that, if American Christians are good at one thing, they are good at creating a good sense of community and comradery amongst themselves) but, again, I do not believe that the Bible is 100% right on their basis of theology.

I somewhat entertain the idea of a cosmic being on the basis of theories like I described in this thread and how science has its dead ends too. For example, as this thread explains, under evolutionary theory, human compassion and most of the moral codes established by ethics are highly illogical and cannot truly be explained through science. In my beliefs, I believe that many people come to the conclusion that there is or isn't a God without spending an appropriate amount of time taking into consideration various perspectives and flaws/holes within their own frame of thinking.
 

Fatmanonice

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Honestly, animals are capable of feeling compassion just as we are. They can feel hate, love, angst, empathy and sorrow too.

There are reports of mother gorilla's babies dying, and the mother is obviously upset and in shock. She is unable to accept that her baby is no longer living. She cradles her baby and mourns the loss. That is compassion.

There are also reports of a pod of dolphins going out of their way to protect humans from a shark attack. Can you tell me that they don't feel empathy? They weren't benefiting anything from the situation.

Just the other day, I saw a tragic scene unfold on the roadway. A mother and father bonded pair of mallard ducks were crossing the street. The pregnant mother was hit by a speeding car and I turned around in shock to see the male on top of the lifeless female flapping it's wings trying to get her to get up. It was so sad. I felt so terrible. Can you tell me that's not compassion? I think not.

Lovebirds in captivity mate for life and when one of them dies, often the other will die soon after of a "broken heart". I had a pair of bonded lovebirds growing up, and this happened to me. Animals are as capable as having compassion as we are.

We as human beings began to evolve really once we had an abundance of time. We weren't busy running around, gathering food and worrying about surviving so much. I believe that this is where the line crosses from natural selection to the capability of having feelings.

Human compassion is most definitely logical. In fact, it is necessary for our species to evolve.
I think compassion is being mistaken here for emotion in general which is not the arguement at hand. Compassion: a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering. This is the key element that seperates compassion from sympathy.

The mother gorilla will eventually reproduce again and you have to keep in mind that she's in mourning by herself. Baboons and chimps have also been noted for following this kind of behavior too.

It is often theorized that humans will get attacked by sharks for resembling sea turtles, large fish, or dolphins to the sharks. If the sharks can make this mistake, why can't the dolphins? With this in mind, the explanation, at least in scientific terms would be to save another dolphin who is capable of reproducing.

The male duck will also probably live to reproduce again. Just to clarify, this is an example of sympathy. An example of compassion would be if another duck came out of no where and tried to help the duck who was mourning.

Again, regarding the love birds, that's not compassion either and, in an odd sense, could be seen as the other love bird doing the species a favor and removing itself since it served its species purpose of mating for life with one mate thus, in theory, it could be argued that it commits suicide by instinct. Harsh sounding, yes, but that in itself is nature and, as the old joke goes, that's why we call it a mother.

As I somewhat mentioned earlier, what you said could be completely possible in how compassion evolved from sociological nessecity rather than biological. This, all in all, ties into my thought that humans could possibly follow a different kind of evolution than other organisms .


I think that might be the best first post ever Lily. I think you should go to the debate hall. can't really say much on the subject , because alll to say has been covered


to the thing about life being pointless. How did you come up with that? think lift is a what? A gift and what do you do with a gift? you open it and enjoy it and if nothing was there then that point would be to fill it up. like a box.
Like I said, everyone defines for themselves the meaning of life but when you remove all human emotion and theology, the meaning of life is meerly to reproduce. In the cosmic sense, life is pretty much trivial but, in the individual sense, it definately can be stuffed to the brim with meaning and purpose. In short, life is how you define it.
 

Lily

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I think compassion is being mistaken here for emotion in general which is not the arguement at hand. Compassion: a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering. This is the key element that seperates compassion from sympathy.

The mother gorilla will eventually reproduce again and you have to keep in mind that she's in mourning by herself. Baboons and chimps have also been noted for following this kind of behavior too.

It is often theorized that humans will get attacked by sharks for resembling sea turtles, large fish, or dolphins to the sharks. If the sharks can make this mistake, why can't the dolphins? With this in mind, the explanation, at least in scientific terms would be to save another dolphin who is capable of reproducing.

The male duck will also probably live to reproduce again. Just to clarify, this is an example of sympathy. An example of compassion would be if another duck came out of no where and tried to help the duck who was mourning.

Again, regarding the love birds, that's not compassion either and, in an odd sense, could be seen as the other love bird doing the species a favor and removing itself since it served its species purpose of mating for life with one mate thus, in theory, it could be argued that it commits suicide by instinct. Harsh sounding, yes, but that in itself is nature and, as the old joke goes, that's why we call it a mother.

As I somewhat mentioned earlier, what you said could be completely possible in how compassion evolved from sociological nessecity rather than biological. This, all in all, ties into my thought that humans could possibly follow a different kind of evolution than other organisms .
Hmm. Good rebuttal. I believe you are right, I have confused my vocabulary as to the meanings of compassion and sympathy. I was trying to get my point across that animals, like people are subject to have emotions.
 

Redson

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Compassion is a highly illogical feeling, as much as it pains me to say it. The human nature is based mainly on the desire to survive in a world that consistantly desires to destroy us. However, despite the human being's purely selfish nature, we feel a strange sort of sympathy for those even not of our own species. I speak from experience when I say that while the soul of a human is an important thing that gives us a sense of self, it can also be our greatest downfall.

With compassion, we are pained by the sadness of others, and we often try to aid those who are in pain. However, often, this feeling can overtake us, completely destroying us from the inside. While the feeling of helping someone may never get old, and will always fill us with a brilliant swirl of emotion, you can easily be consumed by this desire to help. There are some people in the world who can simply not be helped, or don't want help. When this happens, the desire to make someone feel better may overcome your own desire to even live, at a point. I remember when my friend almost committed suicide, all I did was stay there with her, in an attempt to stop her from ever trying it again. I became so wrapped up in her life that I ended up forgetting about the importance of my own. My grades lowered steadily due to my lack of care or interest for my own self, and I lost weight from lack of eating. Perhaps it was just me that had such a reaction to empathy, but I like to believe that my point is still even partially valid.

Is an emotion capable of destroying us from the inside out truly a logical thing? No. Its not. However, it is the illogical things that push our species further and further in evolution. Without the aid of eachother, our being will fall apart in time, destroying itself through war and selfishness. Compassion inspires cooperation, which in turn, makes us inherently different from many other species on the planet.

Just my opinion, though.
 

Fatmanonice

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Hmm. Good rebuttal. I believe you are right, I have confused my vocabulary as to the meanings of compassion and sympathy. I was trying to get my point across that animals, like people are subject to have emotions.
That's fine and I do commend you, as someone else already said, for making your first post on this forum so thought provoking. Whether you're into competitive smash or not, I hope you have a good stay here.

wow, the above explanation hits the head of the nail here
Not to be a pug-nut but which explanation are you referring to? :laugh:

@ Redson:

*whistles*

I have to say, that was one helluva post. Great explanation and I agree entirely with what you said.
 

Lily

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That's fine and I do commend you, as someone else already said, for making your first post on this forum so thought provoking. Whether you're into competitive smash or not, I hope you have a good stay here.
Off topic: I am getting into competitive Smash mainly Brawl+ because of my boyfriend (The Cape). I will be lurking and making random posts off and on. =)

Back on topic: Redson, that was amazing. Definetly got me thinking. I agree on some of your points. It's a tough subject.

"Compassion inspires cooperation, which in turn, makes us inherently different from many other species on the planet."

I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.
 

Pakman

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As a species, human beings are not solely motivated by the need to reproduce and survive. People don't just want to live, they want to live well. Many people live for their career. Many people live for power. Many people live for art. Many people live for greed. Others live for the standard evolutionary motive i.e. children.

I contend that depending on what drives you, compassion can be either illogical or logical. Succeeding in art, parenting, and similar motives usually requires some kind of compassion. However, motives like money, and power are generally hindered by it.

Competition in a sense has changed for most civilized human societies. It is no longer about killing their rivals, but rather surpassing them in society. Being "fit" for humans has evolved to mean more than physically fit but also economically fit.

Economic success has overtaken physical traits in the natural selection process of the modern human race.
 

Zero Beat

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Whether compassion is logical or illogical depends on what triggers the compassion in the first place. Now, making decisions based on compassion? Usually will result in a not so logical outcome.

I'll expand on this when I have the time.:)
 

Firus

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Assuming human compassion IS illogical, which it pretty much is...

So what? Are we going to become robots/Vulcans/rocks because of it? Humanity and emotions are pretty much illogical, so...

No offense, but I just don't see the point in wondering this.
 

Redson

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There often isn't a point at all as to wonder such things, but people do them anyway for reasons if not to slate their curiosity. Therefore, while there is no particular point in pondering, I believe it is still an interesting topic to discuss.

Thank you, good sir.
 

Fatmanonice

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Assuming human compassion IS illogical, which it pretty much is...

So what? Are we going to become robots/Vulcans/rocks because of it? Humanity and emotions are pretty much illogical, so...

No offense, but I just don't see the point in wondering this.
I think it's important to question tradition conventions every once in awhile. The topic at hand is definately one of those things that people overlook or don't really ever think about indepth. That's one of the blessings and curses of being human, you are born into this world but you don't have to fully understand it in order to carry on with your daily affairs despite having the mental capabilities to learn more about it. They say that ignorance is bliss and that excessive learning brings on its own pain but I believe that limiting yourself mentally also limits your potential as a person so it's good to endure some of the pain that comes with thinking about things more than they need to be thought of.

@ pakman:

Good to see yet another person who's thought of modern human evolution more as a sociological/technological process than biological. Honestly, I wish the Biology department at my school had a class like this.
 

Firus

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I recognize the ramifications of questioning traditions, I can easily see the merits myself and do so frequently, I just don't see this as something we ought to question. Yes, it's probably irrational, but I don't think society really needs to let go of compassion on top of all the other crap it already has.

I'm not questioning any variation of wondering or thinking or pondering things, it's the specific topic at hand that I see no point in questioning. Seriously, do we plan to give up compassion and emotions in general because they're illogical? They define us as humans. Humanity is fairly stupid, but life without emotions would be pretty dull.
 

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On that same note, does it benefit us to even wonder this? It's not going to make any sort of profound change in your life, and it's not going to happen any time soon, it's just useless thinking that should be put towards better use.
 

Redson

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It doesn't benifit us at all to discuss this, actually. But it is quite entertaining. Isn't that all that matters? Or does this have to be a discussion about something useful?
 

LordoftheMorning

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IMO, the only answer you'll find is a higher power (GOD). I've thought about this many times before. Also, where did the compassion start?

Why would one caveman sacrifice something to help another caveman? In a natural state, it's take-what-you-can-and-give-nothin'-back (yo-ho!). The first person to try being altruistic will A) have to have enormous amounts of courage, because he would know that he will just be taken advantage of- and B) likely die because he exposed a weakness, which would mean his idea would die out as well (failing the test of natural selection).

What I'm getting at is that no one person can start a compassionate society. It's got to be almost everyone or no one. How does everyone in a society decide to be a compassionate and altruistic person at the same time? It's not gonna happen. There will always be some troll to mess it up.

But because it already exists, and everyone knows that it works to some degree at least, altruism and compassion are common.

This makes me think that humans have a natural propensity toward being altruistic, but that must transcend an evolutionary level. Therefore, a possible answer to the question is that there must be a more profound design that just chaos and natural selection.
 

Fatmanonice

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On that same note, does it benefit us to even wonder this? It's not going to make any sort of profound change in your life, and it's not going to happen any time soon, it's just useless thinking that should be put towards better use.
Does it have to be benefital? What's wrong with thinking for sake of thinking? Really, if you wanted to be technical, a vast majority of thinking is useless in an immediate practical sense. For example, this forum as a whole and the hobbies we pursue. XD

@ Firus:

Who said that the goal here was to change the world? :ohwell: I'm not asking people to stop showing emotions. No need to take offense, I merely thought it was an interesting topic to talk about and offer something a little different on this board. Also, what Redson said.
 
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