Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

Tien2500 said:

I think DC summed up everything failry well. As a ZSS main I agree with him.

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Kirby avatar, no character selected, never seen you in the ZSS boards which is where 90% of my posting is, and you have like 450+ posts, are you really a ZSS main???

noradseven said:

Kirby avatar, no character selected, never seen you in the ZSS boards which is where 90% of my posting is, and you have like 450+ posts, are you really a ZSS main???

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I have an MK avatar with Squirtle as my icon, and I haven't posted here in quite some time. And I still main Kirby.

Looks can be deceiving.

Ummm.... DC, while you do make intelligent posts, you give the impression Kirby players don't know what to do when their air-camping is neutralized, which, as you stated, in this matchup it kind of is.

For one, you are completely right on your summary if all we do is air camp and Bair. This is a horrible idea vs ZSS, and we're better off approaching by shieldwalking and PSing until we get in.

Comboing will be ****ed up by DownB, but it's still possible. Gimping can also be ****ed by her DownB, but also potentially aided by it, since you can inhale her out of it if you predict it, and you can footstool her out of that.
Also, if you do a pummel break (only possible at the edge), it sets up perfectly for a gimp, since she really has very few options in that position, and all of them have a similar trajectory.

Most ZSS' will space with sideB and neutral B, and attempt to do midrange camping until they can start a combo, usually involving multiple Uairs. While these combos are very effective, we can avoid them by simply not getting hit by the 2-3 moves that can set them up.
Generally speaking, the way a ZSS player sets up combos will be either through a Dthrow, a Dtilt, or a Utilt. 2 of these require we be really close, and one requires she commit to a laggy grab. None of them are extremely hard to see coming. This doesn't negate them, since you will undoubtedly get comboed a few times, considering how well ZSS does that, but we shouldn't really be starting every stock getting comboed. In fact, I personally tend to do okay avoiding those Uair chains.

Yeah, her UpB clanks with our Dair most of the time, but for some reason, when they clank, our hitbox doesn't get canceled out like hers does, so we can still FF it and hit, whereas she won't be able to do anything about it. However, that's pretty situational, and you shouldn't be above ZSS anyway.

ZSS has better aerials and better air speed than us. Don't try to take this fight to the air.
Also, contrary to what some would like to believe, she is quite tough to gimp, and I wouldn't try to go too far away from the edge to gimp.

As for her armor pieces, try to get one and get rid of the others. You can then keep that one for a long time the same way she can: SH smash throw down, then regrab with an aerial (I use Uair).

ZSS' main problem is that she has no real response to excessive shielding, especially powershielding, due to her slow and fairly telegraphed grab. This makes getting in a lot simpler than it first appears. However, she does have tools for when you get in, so don't be too careless.

About her Dsmash:
It hurts... a lot... and it sets up for kills. That being said, it is also pretty telegraphed, and not all that fast... I mean, it isn't slow, but it's not incredibly fast either. However, the hitbox is bigger than it appears, and it does linger a bit, which makes it easy to follow up a Dsmash that hits a shield with another Dsmash. Because of this and it's ability to hit through the ground and ledges, while Dsmash is easy to see coming, it's not always easy to avoid, and it can be very hard to escape when getting Dsmashed on your shield.

Surprisingly, stone edgeguarding also works pretty well against ZSS, though it is risky, since if you miss, you can be punished hard, since ZSS can effectively gimp us as well when we recover from below (or if we need to use FC in general, or get too predictable.).

Also, you can duck her projectile unless it's fully charged, as well as her dash attack, which can force her to use SideB to reach you, which allows you a chance to powershield and approach her.
her aerials, while amazing, are also bad for approaches, especially on a character as short as Kirby.

noradseven said:

Kirby's +
ZSS however is light , a fresh b-air will kill before 80%, f-smash far earlier.

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With DI and DownB momentum canceling, there's no way a fresh Bair kills you at 80%. A Fsmash, MAYBE, but even then I doubt it would kill a good ZSS before 100-120%. I mean, I can't say I land too many Fsmashes at that percent on ZSS, but Bair killing at 80% sounds ridiculously wrong. Can someone test this?




Ugh... I've stopped and started this post so many times over the last 6 hours... I know I had other stuff to say, but I don't remember what anymore...

Not sure what I'd put this matchup at TBH. Somewhere between 50-50 and 40-60 IMO, though I wouldn't be TOO surprised if it were in Kirby's advantage... I don't know... It honestly depends on the style of ZSS and how gay the Kirby player is willing to be IMO (Also depends on the stage.).

It's not Kirby's advantage except on Wifi. I think Hence once said he thought this was 30:70.

I don't agree it's 30:70 (that's pretty intense), but 40:60 sounds appropriate. A few notes:

The out-of-grab shenanigans don't work on ZSS, afaik. We can down-b after the first throw, however that can be predicted and punished.

Kirby is one of few characters that can't shield our jab combo, which makes this pretty **** in close quarters.

Our air game > your air game, but on the ground you can be dangerous if you get inside our mid range spacing tools. That's really hard for you to do though.

As a reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgnC7X4v4GE This is the most recent match between two good players I can find on Youtube and there's nothing about it that isn't applicable today (and it's not even really that old).

Edit: ugh, the commentary in this video is terrible. Talk about meatriding.

I'm thinking more along the lines of 65:35. ZSS outrages Kirby so much, it's ridiculous. Gimping a ZSS is much harder than it really should be, but they're just so good, they get around it.

Kirby being a lightweight, she doesn't have nearly as much trouble killing him.

It's just as hard, if not harder than MK imo. But that's just my consise input. I don't have the time for the Kirby boards any more. Kirby's only real saving grace is HER getting killed just as early.

☆ I still don't see how this is ZSS favor, I don't find this match up hard at all, I mean Lucario is even harder than ZSS IMO, but his match up is 55/45 his hand, (based on the old match up thread). ZSS only kill moves is U-Air, F-Air, B-Air, Side-B and Down-B, but most of those attacks are hard to land on unless you get hit by her D-Smash but even still, your percent has to be over 110ish to have a good chance to kill. But how are you going to land it? Camping? Sorry, ZSS attacks doesn't work like that. Baiting? That's your only option, but how are you going to bait, you only have a few attacks that can lead to that. Punishing? Only a F-Smash spammer and a Up-B spammer you can punish, I dare you to punish our grab with your move, or with a grab. ☆

☆ That being said, ZSS can be gimped easily than you think, have you tried Stone gimping? It seems to work on her just fine. That being said, don't listen to me, because I can beat ZSS with out breaking a sweat. =/ ☆

☆ That being said, 60/40 Kirby, yes it's ok to hate me now. =P ☆

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTAeEmcHhaI First in a series of 5 friendlies between FadedImage and TwilightKirby (watch them all). lol at match 2

Fact is "brawler" type characters like Kirby, GaW, etc. are ZSS' specialty. He has no projectiles to speak of (unless he takes her paralyzer shot which i do recommend), wrecks him at mid-range with her superior spacing game and combos him to hell in the air. It's not good for Kirby at all. If you're beating ZSS players consistently then they don't know the match-up or aren't very good.

Supermodel From Paris said:

It's not Kirby's advantage except on Wifi. I think Hence once said he thought this was 30:70.

I don't agree it's 30:70 (that's pretty intense), but 40:60 sounds appropriate. A few notes:

The out-of-grab shenanigans don't work on ZSS, afaik. We can down-b after the first throw, however that can be predicted and punished.

Kirby is one of few characters that can't shield our jab combo, which makes this pretty **** in close quarters.

Our air game > your air game, but on the ground you can be dangerous if you get inside our mid range spacing tools. That's really hard for you to do though.

As a reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgnC7X4v4GE This is the most recent match between two good players I can find on Youtube and there's nothing about it that isn't applicable today (and it's not even really that old).

Edit: ugh, the commentary in this video is terrible. Talk about meatriding.

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When did he say this, since last time we played (Well, no, last time we played and he was playing well, since last time we played he was obviously out of it.), while he won, it was a fairly close match. On my end, I was beating myself up at having lost to a ZSS, a matchup that seems too easy for me to lose (Due to a lot of ZSS experience and knowing a LOT of tricks I can pull out on her.).

Also, the grab shenanigans don't work, very true. HOWEVER, with Dthrow (which is so much better than Fthrow anyway), we still have a lot of followups. If you decide to double jump away, we can follow and punish your landing.

Viper, those are a lot of KO moves (though with proper SDI Fair shouldn't be killing, and unless you're being careless, you shouldn't really die much to DownB either.), especially when you add Dsmash in, since it sets up for every kill move. When it comes to killing, we are pretty even, or maybe she even has an easier time.

SFP, I may be wrong, but I am almost certain we can also shield the 3rd jab so long as we didn't DI the first two hits upwards.

Also, one of the biggest problems for ZSS in this matchup it seems is that we can force her to rely on SideB, since an aerial approach would be easily punished, and we can punish that pretty easily.
I really don't find getting in your mid range spacing hard to do at all, especially since your paralizer is pretty much useless unless you fully charge it (since we can duck under it) and you can't follow it up with a DA to mix things up (since we'll still be ducking when you sail over us with that. That really only leaves your SideB, which as I already stated, is easily punishable if you know how to perfect shield.

Also SFP, Snakee is so much fun to watch!

Tell Hence to go to the Springfield Tourny this weekend, so we can play this matchup again. It's been over a month since our last real match.

Straked said:

Was that intentional?

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No I meant to say fairly. Might have been a clever joke if it had been intentional but just a typo.

noradseven said:

Kirby avatar, no character selected, never seen you in the ZSS boards which is where 90% of my posting is, and you have like 450+ posts, are you really a ZSS main???

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Pretty sure I'm a ZSS main. I do use her in most of my matches O_O... I have a Kirby avatar because Kirby is awesome and my favorite video game character and I used him in Melee. I haven't found many interesting conversations to jump into on the ZSS boards but I lurk there.

Supermodel From Paris said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTAeEmcHhaI First in a series of 5 friendlies between FadedImage and TwilightKirby (watch them all). lol at match 2

Fact is "brawler" type characters like Kirby, GaW, etc. are ZSS' specialty. He has no projectiles to speak of (unless he takes her paralyzer shot which i do recommend), wrecks him at mid-range with her superior spacing game and combos him to hell in the air. It's not good for Kirby at all. If you're beating ZSS players consistently then they don't know the match-up or aren't very good.

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I don't think we should be basing our matchup ratios on these friendlies lol -_- It's obvious they were fooling around. Kirby edgeguards? by doing a grounded stone so zss can come back and dsmash>bair him to death. I don't see that too often in a tourny. Kirby, on his last stock, obviously upbing way to far from the stage in a weird position. I couldn't watch the rest of the matches after the first.

Triple R said:

I don't think we should be basing our matchup ratios on these friendlies lol -_- It's obvious they were fooling around. Kirby edgeguards? by doing a grounded stone so zss can come back and dsmash>bair him to death. I don't see that too often in a tourny. Kirby, on his last stock, obviously upbing way to far from the stage in a weird position. I couldn't watch the rest of the matches after the first.

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The UP B at the end of the stage seemed like an "eff it I lost" thing. Overall they both seemed pretty competent with their characters. Obviously a matchup shouldn't be decided by one set no matter what but they're somewhat helpful in getting a feel for the match.

☆ I just played a random good ZSS main, like I said, nothings going to change my mind to say that she has the advantage and say it's in Kirby's hands. But I do admit that Brawling her on Final Destination is a big no no. I officially SD myself twice because I couldn't stand Brawling her there. T_T ☆

☆ Kirby's D-Air and B-Air can block her Plasma Gun or what the **** ever that **** is called, and tilts work wonders on her if you try to punish or get her while she's trying to get out of her shield. ☆

Viper JLT4GOV said:

☆ I just played a random good ZSS main, like I said, nothings going to change my mind to say that she has the advantage and say it's in Kirby's hands. But I do admit that Brawling her on Final Destination is a big no no. I officially SD myself twice because I couldn't stand Brawling her there. T_T ☆

☆ Kirby's D-Air and B-Air can block her Plasma Gun or what the **** ever that **** is called, and tilts work wonders on her if you try to punish or get her while she's trying to get out of her shield. ☆

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What? What ZSS is using Paralyzer Shot on you while you're in the air? lol

It's been accepted by good players for a very very long time now that this matchup is in ZSS' favor. For instance, last time Chu faced Snakeee, Chu went Marth because he thought he'd stand a better chance (and lost) and was forced to go Kirby and... lost on a stage Snakeee doesn't even like.

The match-up is not good for Kirby at the highest level. And I know you didn't play a "good" ZSS main unless it was on wi-fi, because there are like 5 good ZSS mains and none of them live in MI. Actually, I take that back, there's Hence; but while Hence is pretty good, but even he'd tell you he's not national tourney quality. And I don't get the impression you played Hence based on what you said.

If you're basing this on wifi matches please don't, because on wifi ZSS' best matchup is like 30:70 and you can literally spam bair and fsmash and win.

This is like Marth mains trying to argue that the MK matchup is in their favor. It just isn't no matter how much you say "it's not!" and stamp your foot down.

The UP B at the end of the stage seemed like an "eff it I lost" thing. Overall they both seemed pretty competent with their characters. Obviously a matchup shouldn't be decided by one set no matter what but they're somewhat helpful in getting a feel for the match.

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What he said, but I like to link videos between good players in match-up discussions because usually the people discussing it are basing it on anecdotes and not point-for-point, character comparisons. While these matches are still anecdotal, they help illustrate my point; even on stages that are better for Kirby, he has a hard time getting inside.

Kirby has a better CQC game and potentially better aerial mobility, but that's it. Every aerial we have outranges or outprioritizes yours, we can escape your chain grabs and grab combos, we aren't easily gimped by Kirby, and we can avoid your CQC. Your biggest advantage is the potential for an early kill if ZSS makes a mistake. I'm not seeing how this adds up to a winning formula. So far your only argument is "I played a good ZSS and gimped them at 80% with an edgeguard." Great, what that says to me is they weren't a good ZSS. Do you have an argument that shows you know the match-up at a high level that doesn't boil down to an anecdote? Can you at least give me an example of a high level Kirby player beating a ZSS player recently? I doubt it.

☆ Nope, not based off of Wifi, I'll just quit and pick someone else if I do see a ZSS main online, lol. But like I'd said, it was someone random not known at all but he was good enough for me to try to win. ☆

☆ And of course I can't type examples, I'm terrible at that. XD ☆

how is it evan with kirby and sonic

Viper JLT4GOV said:

☆ Nope, not based off of Wifi, I'll just quit and pick someone else if I do see a ZSS main online, lol. But like I'd said, it was someone random not known at all but he was good enough for me to try to win. ☆

☆ And of course I can't type examples, I'm terrible at that. XD ☆

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No offense but random ZSS main doesn't really cut it. I'm a bit confused about Dair and Bair being used against the paralyzer as well. I'm not sure in what situation Dairing a paralizer would be at all useful. Personally I use that attack VERY rarely against an airborne opponent and if I do its not against someone with Kirby's aerial mobility and its at a safe distance. I think most ZSS mains do this very seldomly if at all.

Why exactly did you find FD a bad stage for ZSS? Does Kirby have problems approaching here or something?

Supermodel From Paris said:

[...]
This is like Marth mains trying to argue that the MK matchup is in their favor. It just isn't no matter how much you say "it's not!" and stamp your foot down. [...]

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While I don't care for either character much, from what I'd gathered, it had been agreed that it was about even UNTIL Marth gets knocked offstage, at which point it becomes radically in MK's favor. Both sides presented arguements, and it definitely hasn't appeared to be just "NUH UH!".

Supermodel From Paris said:

[...] Do you have an argument that shows you know the match-up at a high level that doesn't boil down to an anecdote? Can you at least give me an example of a high level Kirby player beating a ZSS player recently? I doubt it.

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While you continue to quote Viper when he does give anecdotes, you completely ignore the posts, like my own, that argue matchup points. True, I can't give you an example of a high level Kirby player beating a high level ZSS main recently (though if you count Hence as a good ZSS main, he might have played YbM or Asdioh at one of the WnB events or MWC events. I also played him at WnB a few times and they were relatively even except for the time he was completely out of it, which I won't count for exactly that reason.), but to be honest, other than that match between Chu and Snakee, I don't think that matchup has happened at a high level of play recently. That being said, just because I haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, so I could be wrong.


Also, SFP, to be fair, when you speak of Chu vs Snakee, if you're talking about the matches you linked, then I have to wonder what the hell he was thinking that day.
As both sides have said, ZSS wins in the air. Brinstar is a stage that limits our ground game. Very bad formula.

with kirby all you have to do is wiatch your spacing and sonic will get owned

Tien2500 said:

No offense but random ZSS main doesn't really cut it. I'm a bit confused about Dair and Bair being used against the paralyzer as well. I'm not sure in what situation Dairing a paralizer would be at all useful. Personally I use that attack VERY rarely against an airborne opponent and if I do its not against someone with Kirby's aerial mobility and its at a safe distance. I think most ZSS mains do this very seldomly if at all.

Why exactly did you find FD a bad stage for ZSS? Does Kirby have problems approaching here or something?

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☆ Me, as a random Kirby main doesn't cut it either. ._. ☆

☆ Unlike some people that try to play defensive, I try anything to see what will work, and I constnaly hit her Paralyzer with B-Air and D-Air with no problem, I mean I might be on drugs because I saw it with my own eyes. ☆

☆ And on FD, theres nothing to abuse this stage when your fighting ZSS, while she can start out with her parts of her suit and long range attacks. It's personally not a stage that I would take her to. ☆

Viper JLT4GOV said:

☆ Me, as a random Kirby main doesn't cut it either. ._. ☆

☆ Unlike some people that try to play defensive, I try anything to see what will work, and I constnaly hit her Paralyzer with B-Air and D-Air with no problem, I mean I might be on drugs because I saw it with my own eyes. ☆

☆ And on FD, theres nothing to abuse this stage when your fighting ZSS, while she can start out with her parts of her suit and long range attacks. It's personally not a stage that I would take her to. ☆

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You definitely can hit her paralyzer with a bair or a dair but I'm not sure how this is particularly useful. Dair in particular seems pointless as a way to counter the paralyzer.

Kewkky said:

And what if Sonic watches his spacing, as well as yours...? Spacing doesn't give us super armor or invincibility frames.

And I wish I could play against a high level ZSS player (or any ZSS player, even), but sadly I can't so I'm stuck outside of this discussion. Still haven't heard ZSS mains talking about excessive shielding agaist them, and their highly telegraphed grab game...


OH and, props to the ZSS boards for being so active in this discussion! I like those boards because they're active and intent on getting the last juice out of ZSS. :D

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Shielding shouldn't be too much of a problem I think. Even if powershielded the side B isn't very punishable (assuming its spaced correctly). Dsmash should be out of range of Kirby's tilts if shielded. (to the best of my knowledge) and the cooldown isn't enough to get an fsmash or anything.

We're still unsure as to whether the final attack of the jab combo is blockable by Kirby.

Dtilt should be safe when shielded. Utilt on the other hand is unsafe. It has a bit of cooldown. Enough for a tilt or a grab definitely. Dunno if the lag is enough for much else. Don't think so. Dashattack if powershielded can be grabbed or tilted.

Fsmash is laggy and punishable but you shouldn't expect to see it ever. Really one of the worst moves in the game . Ftilt is less punishable but again isn't used enough to be relevant. I think that covers most things.

Also beware or overshielding. If you're careless about it you'll most likely windup getting shieldstabbed by a side B.

A ZSS main shouldn't be using grabs carelessly. Basically when an opponent does something laggy and sometimes mixed in with the dash attack to keep people guessing. Also if the opponent is at the correct range (meaning the end of her grab range) what kirby can do to punish is somewhat limited.. I don't think Kirby moves through the air fast enough to get her with an aerial and you'll have to run to get to her which cuts down on the options. Dash attack, and dashgrab mainly. I'm pretty sure dash/Usmash is too slow.

fromundaman said:

While I don't care for either character much, from what I'd gathered, it had been agreed that it was about even UNTIL Marth gets knocked offstage, at which point it becomes radically in MK's favor. Both sides presented arguements, and it definitely hasn't appeared to be just "NUH UH!".

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I wasn't saying the match-up discussion happened that way, I was offering a hypothetical. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

While you continue to quote Viper when he does give anecdotes, you completely ignore the posts, like my own, that argue matchup points. True, I can't give you an example of a high level Kirby player beating a high level ZSS main recently (though if you count Hence as a good ZSS main, he might have played YbM or Asdioh at one of the WnB events or MWC events. I also played him at WnB a few times and they were relatively even except for the time he was completely out of it, which I won't count for exactly that reason.), but to be honest, other than that match between Chu and Snakee, I don't think that matchup has happened at a high level of play recently. That being said, just because I haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, so I could be wrong.

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It's a fair point.

Per request, I picked a post with some points and will try to reply. Truth be told I'm one of two ZSS mains that even participate in these discussions, so it gets a little rough replying to everyting and it results in "text walls..."

fromundaman said:

When did he say this, since last time we played (Well, no, last time we played and he was playing well, since last time we played he was obviously out of it.), while he won, it was a fairly close match. On my end, I was beating myself up at having lost to a ZSS, a matchup that seems too easy for me to lose (Due to a lot of ZSS experience and knowing a LOT of tricks I can pull out on her.).

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Maybe a few months ago. BTW, I didn't say Hence wasn't good! Hence is good, and probably better than me. I said that he isn't national quality. However, it's not like if you played him and found the match to be in your favor I would discount that, I just doubt Hence couldn't beat a Kirby at his level of play most of the time.

Also, the grab shenanigans don't work, very true. HOWEVER, with Dthrow (which is so much better than Fthrow anyway), we still have a lot of followups. If you decide to double jump away, we can follow and punish your landing.

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Yeah, but that requires you to predict which is outside the scope of a match-up discussion (because we're talking about qualities of characters and not qualities of players). However, if you fail to predict where we go correct -you- end up getting punished.

SFP, I may be wrong, but I am almost certain we can also shield the 3rd jab so long as we didn't DI the first two hits upwards.

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As far as I know, if we jab you on the ground, you can PS by SDIing downwards after the second jab. If we jab you in the air, you can't DI.

Also, one of the biggest problems for ZSS in this matchup it seems is that we can force her to rely on SideB, since an aerial approach would be easily punished, and we can punish that pretty easily.

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How are her aerial approaches easily punished? I'm just curious because I'm surprised to see someone say this. RAR'd Back air is one of the strongest aerial approaches I can think of off the top of my head

I really don't find getting in your mid range spacing hard to do at all, especially since your paralizer is pretty much useless unless you fully charge it (since we can duck under it) and you can't follow it up with a DA to mix things up (since we'll still be ducking when you sail over us with that. That really only leaves your SideB, which as I already stated, is easily punishable if you know how to perfect shield.

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First, you are talking about the ZSS game like this is May of 2008. Back air, side b, and sometimes fair tend to be our spacing tools of choice and believe it or not they are very good. Our aerials have disjointed hitbox and beat you in priority even if we space wrong.

What you have to know about side-b and paralyzer shot is that the goal is never to hit, it is to force a reaction from the opponent. The thing about ZSS people ignore is that while the ground-level spacing tools are slow and even telegraphed, the only way to punish them is to go airborne, where is where we want you. A large part of ZSS' game in this match-up is forcing approaches, which she has the tools to do; Kirby does not have the tools to avoid this paradigm.

I want to mention that neutral b is one of our worst moves. I have no idea why you guys bring it up so often. Good ZSS players use that a few times a set at most for mindgame purposes. It's not a spammable attack and you don't aim to hit with it except to punish DACUSes.

^This

Air approaches generally suck arse vs ZSS do to her having more priority/range, but our bair is quicker so feel free to use it in the appropriate situations.

Honestly I have no idea whose ground game has a farther reach when not talking about side b. As in, in terms of tilts, who has more range?

Supermodel From Paris said:

I wasn't saying the match-up discussion happened that way, I was offering a hypothetical. Sorry if I wasn't clear.


It's a fair point.

Per request, I picked a post with some points and will try to reply. Truth be told I'm one of two ZSS mains that even participate in these discussions, so it gets a little rough replying to everyting and it results in "text walls..."

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No worries.

Also, that would explain why you're pretty much the only ZSS main in here

Supermodel From Paris said:

Maybe a few months ago. BTW, I didn't say Hence wasn't good! Hence is good, and probably better than me. I said that he isn't national quality. However, it's not like if you played him and found the match to be in your favor I would discount that, I just doubt Hence couldn't beat a Kirby at his level of play most of the time.

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It seems I misunderstood you yet again. Still, he's probably got the best ZSS in the MW atm, which sounds a lot more impressive until you realize there's only two (paradigm, whom I used to play daily and who now mains Marth/Samus and Hence.).
Again, it felt pretty even to me, but in hindsight, I probably know the matchup much better than he.

Supermodel From Paris said:

Yeah, but that requires you to predict which is outside the scope of a match-up discussion (because we're talking about qualities of characters and not qualities of players). However, if you fail to predict where we go correct -you- end up getting punished.

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While that is a fair point, there is really no way for you TO punish a Dthrow. Until about 40%, we can get a Utilt in after the Dthrow unless you buffer an AD to the ground. If you AD to the ground, we can punish it (though not if we commited to the Utilt.). If you try to DownB or do an aerial, I *believe* (I wish I had a working Wii to test stuff right now) you can only do them and actually get them out after 40%, and since after 40% we should be trying to shield then regrab, that won't actually hurt us, and we might be able to chase it and punish the landing (though if I remember correctly, DownB has only a little bit of lag, and none if you don't do the kick.), though odds are we'll be back in a neutral scenario.
We could attempt to follow in the air with a Uair, but that seems riskier than it's worth. Basically, my point is that while yes, a follow up is dependent on reading the opponent, in that situation, Kirby HAS a possibility to follow up, whereas ZSS can only really try to get away in that scenario.

Supermodel From Paris said:

As far as I know, if we jab you on the ground, you can PS by SDIing downwards after the second jab. If we jab you in the air, you can't DI.

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Ah, all right. That sounds about right.

Supermodel From Paris said:

How are her aerial approaches easily punished? I'm just curious because I'm surprised to see someone say this. RAR'd Back air is one of the strongest aerial approaches I can think of off the top of my head

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Retreating aerials, I wouldn't see punished easily, but approaching aerials? The thing is, you will have to land them, and TBH, Bair isn't too hard top PF IMO, though for the sake of arguement lets assume you don't. Depending on the spacing, it's unpunishable (Perfectly spaced Bair + no landing lag + 1 frame jab = no punishment unless we try Bair, and the air is not somewhere we want to willingly go unless we can see it will definitely work.). However, if you mispace it, you fall in grab range, and get punished with a grab. If perfect shielded, you are in grab range.
Also, Fair doesn't seem like an great approaching aerial against grounded opponents, though I could be wrong.
Dair is bad for obvious reasons...
Uair approaches, while I've seen them done as mixups, have too low of range to be effective IF you know the timing. People who don't realize how short Uair lasts will probably get hit by a decending Uair as they put down their shield. If you know how to punish it though, a Bair OoS, a Uair OoS, or a shieldgrab will suffice.

Supermodel From Paris said:

First, you are talking about the ZSS game like this is May of 2008. Back air, side b, and sometimes fair tend to be our spacing tools of choice and believe it or not they are very good. Our aerials have disjointed hitbox and beat you in priority even if we space wrong.

What you have to know about side-b and paralyzer shot is that the goal is never to hit, it is to force a reaction from the opponent. The thing about ZSS people ignore is that while the ground-level spacing tools are slow and even telegraphed, the only way to punish them is to go airborne, where is where we want you. A large part of ZSS' game in this match-up is forcing approaches, which she has the tools to do; Kirby does not have the tools to avoid this paradigm.

I want to mention that neutral b is one of our worst moves. I have no idea why you guys bring it up so often. Good ZSS players use that a few times a set at most for mindgame purposes. It's not a spammable attack and you don't aim to hit with it except to punish DACUSes.

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Hmmm... Be that as it may, I'm mentioning what I've noticed as being the strong points in this matchup based on how it's been played against me. Of course, I tend to play a lot more 'gay' than a lot of Kirbies, and usually people end up approaching me because of it, in which case they almost always seem to first shoot a paralyser to force a reaction, at which point I duck, walk out of range or SH over it, then seeing how that didn't work, they try to do a SideB approach, at which point depending on how well I shielded and it was spaced, I either punish or it resets.

I mean sure, I've seen you guys space with aerials and all that, but what good will it do if I refuse to approach? Hell, in that scenario I usually get to about the very end of FC range, and shoot my ****ty projectile at you. This almost always causes an approach. People tend to see that as an insult it seems like, or they somehow overestimate the astounding amount of landing lag and think no matter what it will get punished (which is usually true if you know how to/are in the right position.).

Of course, the style I am describing has trouble working on smaller stages, but on decently sized ones, it's not at all hard to do. We can afford to camp like a **** most of the time, even sometimes when we're losing, since even if they are situational, we still have an instant kill or two on ZSS.

That being said, we are undoubtedly going to at some point find ourselves needing to approach vs a patient ZSS, and it can be hell. It would really just degenerate to both sides baiting attacks, since neither side wants to approach.


By the way, since I know very little about them, who are the top ZSS players other than Snakee?

Kewkky said:

ZSS's dtilt has more range than all of Kirby's tilts, and her ftilt SLIGHTLY outranges kirby's ftilt if angled forward. At least that's what I've seen by using both characters.

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That's always been the impression I got too, though I never tested it.

^This

Air approaches generally suck arse vs ZSS do to her having more priority/range, but our bair is quicker so feel free to use it in the appropriate situations.

Honestly I have no idea whose ground game has a farther reach when not talking about side b. As in, in terms of tilts, who has more range?

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It's true, your bair has a two frame advantage on back air. Also, ZSS' tilts slightly outrange yours but I think they clank. Our utilt actually probably beats your tilts... but I'm not sure.

While that is a fair point, there is really no way for you TO punish a Dthrow. Until about 40%, we can get a Utilt in after the Dthrow unless you buffer an AD to the ground. If you AD to the ground, we can punish it (though not if we commited to the Utilt.)...

...Basically, my point is that while yes, a follow up is dependent on reading the opponent, in that situation, Kirby HAS a possibility to follow up, whereas ZSS can only really try to get away in that scenario.

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Isn't that true of most grab follow-ups? For instance, if I dthrow you, you can escape but you can't really punish it either. That isn't an advantage specific to Kirby, that's a universal truth.

Retreating aerials, I wouldn't see punished easily, but approaching aerials? The thing is, you will have to land them, and TBH, Bair isn't too hard top PF IMO, though for the sake of arguement lets assume you don't. Depending on the spacing, it's unpunishable (Perfectly spaced Bair + no landing lag + 1 frame jab = no punishment unless we try Bair, and the air is not somewhere we want to willingly go unless we can see it will definitely work.). However, if you mispace it, you fall in grab range, and get punished with a grab. If perfect shielded, you are in grab range.

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Well-spaced back air is safe on block unless the opponent has crazy grab range (and even then, usually). And yes, if we mis-space it is possible we will get grabbed or otherwise punished, but again, that's not a Kirby specific advantage and is true of every matchup and with every approach.

I wouldn't necessarily argue that ZSS has trouble approaching Kirby, by the way. In most cases, we won't be doing the approaching and if we have to, we have the tools.

Also, Fair doesn't seem like an great approaching aerial against grounded opponents, though I could be wrong.

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Yeah, on you guys probably not. Moreso on tall characters.

Uair approaches, while I've seen them done as mixups, have too low of range to be effective IF you know the timing.

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Uair's a good approach, but maybe not against Kirby. What is a good approach against Kirby is a fast fall'd nair, which hits even a ducking Kirby and is safe on block. Whoo! A use for nair.

Hmmm... Be that as it may, I'm mentioning what I've noticed as being the strong points in this matchup based on how it's been played against me. Of course, I tend to play a lot more 'gay' than a lot of Kirbies, and usually people end up approaching me because of it, in which case they almost always seem to first shoot a paralyser to force a reaction, at which point I duck, walk out of range or SH over it, then seeing how that didn't work, they try to do a SideB approach, at which point depending on how well I shielded and it was spaced, I either punish or it resets.

I mean sure, I've seen you guys space with aerials and all that, but what good will it do if I refuse to approach? Hell, in that scenario I usually get to about the very end of FC range, and shoot my ****ty projectile at you. This almost always causes an approach. People tend to see that as an insult it seems like, or they somehow overestimate the astounding amount of landing lag and think no matter what it will get punished (which is usually true if you know how to/are in the right position.).

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I'm curious how you plan on forcing ZSS to approach.

By the way, a ZSS player isn't going to fire a baby Paralyzer Shot at you on the ground, that's just asking for trouble. Side-b is a much better option. And your "projectile" is pretty easy to get inside/powershield/whatever. I'm not sure that counts for much as a long range spacing tool. It's also worthless at mid/close range because it will get punished every time.

Look at it this way: if you stand on the other side of FD and make me come to you, that's well and good, but I can stop at mid-range and camp the hell out of you. I don't have to walk all the way up to you and get punished by your superior CQC game. This seems to be where we're having the disconnect; I contend that even if ZSS is forced to 'approach' you (which she really isn't doing at all, closing the gap maybe but not approaching your melee combat game) Kirby still has a huge dead zone to deal with with side-b. Side-b may come out slow, but it has virtually no ending lag. If you jump over it, you get punished.

Of course, the style I am describing has trouble working on smaller stages, but on decently sized ones, it's not at all hard to do. We can afford to camp like a **** most of the time, even sometimes when we're losing, since even if they are situational, we still have an instant kill or two on ZSS.

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Again, I don't think you can out-camp ZSS. You've got a single "projectile" that is very easy to navigate around and a huge dead zone at mid range.

That being said, we are undoubtedly going to at some point find ourselves needing to approach vs a patient ZSS, and it can be hell. It would really just degenerate to both sides baiting attacks, since neither side wants to approach.

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This is very true. I'm just not sure you could argue that in the end, ZSS is going to want to come dashing at Kirby. It will likely be the other way around.

By the way, since I know very little about them, who are the top ZSS players other than Snakee?

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Dazwa and Nick Riddle are both #1 or #2 in their respective regions (competitive ones, too; Dazwa in New England and Nick in Florida). FadedImage is a very good ZSS from SoCal (best in that region) and WarpStatus isn't quite as good, but one day will be (the dude has a ton of raw talent).

Edit: Actually looks like Nick is #8, but the FL PRs are old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2--xdvyTyoA Unrelated, but Dazwa's so fun to watch.

Kewkky said:

I definitely believe ZSS will hit high tier next tier list. High level ZSS's are so fast, plus they have the most insane punishing options (like dsmash>downB spike... Can even kill at 0% too)...

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This is what I've been saying. ZSS is hard to play. The difference between a player like myself and Hence and a player like Dazwa or Snakeee is ridiculous, you can't even compare them. That's why ZSS match-up discussions are so hard to have. People play a mid or even high level ZSS and go "Oh, it's just side b." I've played against Snakeee on wifi, and even though it's just wifi, I can tell you that his ZSS is ridiculously difficult to punish and get inside even in dittos, lol.

.. i think the MU will end around 40:60, even if I wish it not to. I'd want to pull for 45:55, but the ZSS users won't let us, and I don't have proof to back up my thoughts, so... yeah.

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Matchup discussions are nebulous, but they also aren't political. This isn't a you vs. us situation. I'm trying to be unbiased and methodical.

Despite what I've said I recognize Kirby's strengths. We can die very early if we're not careful on stages with close blast zones, for instance. It's just that capitalizing on those strengths requires us to make mistakes.

Supermodel From Paris said:

Isn't that true of most grab follow-ups? For instance, if I dthrow you, you can escape but you can't really punish it either. That isn't an advantage specific to Kirby, that's a universal truth.

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Guess I wasn't very clear. We have ways of punishing everything you do out of a Dthrow up until a certain percent, some of which is almost guaranteed until a 40% (limit your options to only two possibilities, both which can get punished), at which point we end up below you and pressure your landing, which doesn't seem a good position for ZSS.
It's kind of like how your Dthrow sets up for Uair combos, though ours has more options, but doesn't deal at much damage at once. In both cases, the other is unable to punish the Dthrow>follow-up attempt.

Supermodel From Paris said:

Well-spaced back air is safe on block unless the opponent has crazy grab range (and even then, usually). And yes, if we mis-space it is possible we will get grabbed or otherwise punished, but again, that's not a Kirby specific advantage and is true of every matchup and with every approach.

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Right, but Kirby DOES have crazy grab range and therefore can punish it with a grab so long as it's either mispaced or perfect shielded. If it hits our shield normally while well spaced, we get pushed out of grab range. The main point is that our grab range allows us to punish approaching aerials, especially if we know how to powershield.

Supermodel From Paris said:

Uair's a good approach, but maybe not against Kirby. What is a good approach against Kirby is a fast fall'd nair, which hits even a ducking Kirby and is safe on block. Whoo! A use for nair.

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Really? I thought Nair was completely useless, which is probably why no one has tried that approach on me yet.
Uair is pretty good, but it gets outranged by our aerials and grab, and possibly even our tilts, though I don't know why our tilts would be put against your Uair.

Supermodel From Paris said:

I wouldn't necessarily argue that ZSS has trouble approaching Kirby, by the way. In most cases, we won't be doing the approaching and if we have to, we have the tools.

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Supermodel From Paris said:

I'm curious how you plan on forcing ZSS to approach.

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Supermodel From Paris said:

By the way, a ZSS player isn't going to fire a baby Paralyzer Shot at you on the ground, that's just asking for trouble. Side-b is a much better option. And your "projectile" is pretty easy to get inside/powershield/whatever. I'm not sure that counts for much as a long range spacing tool. It's also worthless at mid/close range because it will get punished every time.

Look at it this way: if you stand on the other side of FD and make me come to you, that's well and good, but I can stop at mid-range and camp the hell out of you. I don't have to walk all the way up to you and get punished by your superior CQC game. This seems to be where we're having the disconnect; I contend that even if ZSS is forced to 'approach' you (which she really isn't doing at all, closing the gap maybe but not approaching your melee combat game) Kirby still has a huge dead zone to deal with with side-b. Side-b may come out slow, but it has virtually no ending lag. If you jump over it, you get punished.

Again, I don't think you can out-camp ZSS. You've got a single "projectile" that is very easy to navigate around and a huge dead zone at mid range.

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All of these points argue the same thing, so I'll answer them all at once. You're right, our projectile is pure garbage. However, you'd be surprised at often it baits attacks. That being said, it's by no means reliable, and often only used as a mixup, edgeguard, or random camping if it seems like you're in a position where you won't be able to punish it.

So yeah, you're absolutely right, we can't really projectile camp, and air camping is negated by you having a superior air game. However, when I say camp, for the purpose of this matchup, I do mean just sitting there and waiting for an approach, and baiting attacks when it looks like I can.

Again, this is by no means an ideal situation, but if I am patient enough, we are either going to run the timer or you're going to approach me, depending on how patient one is and who is winning. The thing is, the person who approaches is at a disadvantage, especially if that person is the Kirby player. Based on that knowledge, the Kirby player shouldn't be approaching unless A) he's losing, or B) the ZSS player makes a mistake and leaves an opening, or C) you have an armor piece.

Now supposing Kirby does have to approach. He has to powershield a lot. Powershielding will hurt your midrange game and allow punishment (this is also true when you're approaching us), as well as allowing us to get in. Odds are, we'll try to bait a sideB, perfect shield it, and go for a grab. Once we get enough damage, back to running the clock/waiting for you to approach.

When you do approach, you are right, midrange camping allows you to be close without actually being in our range, while still attacking us. That involves SideB, neutral B, and perhaps aerial spacing, correct? The first two, when perfect shielded, allow for punishment, so that's probably what we'll wait for.
That being said, I doubt you'll just sit there doing that over and over again, so I can't be *too* certain how this scenario would play out, since I have yet to be put into it.

Supermodel From Paris said:

This is very true. I'm just not sure you could argue that in the end, ZSS is going to want to come dashing at Kirby. It will likely be the other way around.

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I'm going to assume I missed something, since this sounds like the opposite of what you've been saying.

Supermodel From Paris said:

Dazwa and Nick Riddle are both #1 or #2 in their respective regions (competitive ones, too; Dazwa in New England and Nick in Florida). FadedImage is a very good ZSS from SoCal (best in that region) and WarpStatus isn't quite as good, but one day will be (the dude has a ton of raw talent).

Edit: Actually looks like Nick is #8, but the FL PRs are old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2--xdvyTyoA Unrelated, but Dazwa's so fun to watch.

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Thanks!

Falco boards rediscussing Kirby Matchup.

Go post!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239164

I can't be here for roughly the next 26 hours, so start a new matchup if you finish this one and I'll edit the thread when I come back.

I doubt the op will ever be edited/fixed.

=D

Falconv1.0 said:

I doubt the op will ever be edited/fixed.

=D

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See: g&w summary. Feel free to get angry at me for the half of the data I had to find on my own.

Game and Watch has no such technique named "Bucket Breaking", and you cannot fill up the bucket with bacon. It's not energy based. RAGEEEEEE.