-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Falco matchup discussion
- Thread starter Guilhe
- Start date
Teh Brettster
Smash Master
It happened to me yesterday, actually. It's complete crap. Best thing is to eat lasers until you're out of CG range (45%). Then you have at least a fighting chance.
Oh, his jab is 1 frame faster than ours, which sucks. Lasers are annoying and a gay Falco will SH phantasm past you as soon as you approach. This is truly a gay match-up when that happens.
Even when they're not 110% gay, it's definitely tough to win. I played Sethlon a couple of weeks ago and had to use a wall infinite just to get him to last stock.
Oh, his jab is 1 frame faster than ours, which sucks. Lasers are annoying and a gay Falco will SH phantasm past you as soon as you approach. This is truly a gay match-up when that happens.
Even when they're not 110% gay, it's definitely tough to win. I played Sethlon a couple of weeks ago and had to use a wall infinite just to get him to last stock.
clowsui
Smash Legend
i've done that, though it's better to hog the edge as a reaction to their jump since you have a good # of frames before the up b
don't up b stall on the ledge, it's stagespike-able
falco's jab is as good if not better than yours
lasers are annoying to deal with
falcos will play to grab you at the beginning of the stock if they're good, regardless of how much you put on them because one grab for you = death
tech hits if you don't feel like being laser locked on reaction (ppl will start getting good at this, believe me)
if you guys hit anything on falco's shield at the wrong space, if it's aerial he can jc bair you unless you do a cross up bair but shielddrop fsmash will reach you
basically don't misspace and don't get grabbed, falco has too many ways to limit ike's options + punish him
don't up b stall on the ledge, it's stagespike-able
falco's jab is as good if not better than yours
lasers are annoying to deal with
falcos will play to grab you at the beginning of the stock if they're good, regardless of how much you put on them because one grab for you = death
tech hits if you don't feel like being laser locked on reaction (ppl will start getting good at this, believe me)
if you guys hit anything on falco's shield at the wrong space, if it's aerial he can jc bair you unless you do a cross up bair but shielddrop fsmash will reach you
basically don't misspace and don't get grabbed, falco has too many ways to limit ike's options + punish him
Kimchi
Smash Ace
What I do really is just Erupt myself to a point where they can't CG me. This matchup is very difficult. Getting through lasers itself is a pain. Falco also can go right into jab cancel -> grab if he short hop double lasers in your face so grabbing's not really a great option if you shield his lasers. I can't emphasize how important it is to get past the lasers. Once you're in, rack up as much damage as possible and don't let him escape. Again, approaching Falco is very very difficult. Some Falcos I played liked to laser me constantly and force me to approach and once I got close, just short hop illusion away and then repeat. Very, very annoying and I have to say that Ike can't really do much about it except powershield every single laser.
Seriously, this match is annoying to say the very, very least. Basically the match starts after you get to 45%, whether you get CG'd or Erupt or just stand there and get hit by lasers.
His lasers are a pain. Between SHDL or even Silent Lasers (lagless, chains into anything IIRC), you're gonna have a tough time getting around them. If by some miracle you get past the lasers, you will get hit by phantasm. Good Falcos will try to mindgame you and alter the length of their phantasm(short, medium, long). If you can't PS them, you'll be in tears.
The positives we have are that Falco's recovery isn't all that great. If you force him into using Firebird, you should take his stock. The distance it travels is pitiful. If he's under you trying to recover, you can always Dair him or time an edgehog. Also, Falco has a hard time killing us. His only reliable kill move is Usmash which is really nasty as part of the Gatling combo (Dash attack ->USmash). But apart from that, he won't be killing us until were @ ~150% (Good DI pending).
I'll wait for a Falco main to show up before I continue or post a ratio.
His lasers are a pain. Between SHDL or even Silent Lasers (lagless, chains into anything IIRC), you're gonna have a tough time getting around them. If by some miracle you get past the lasers, you will get hit by phantasm. Good Falcos will try to mindgame you and alter the length of their phantasm(short, medium, long). If you can't PS them, you'll be in tears.
The positives we have are that Falco's recovery isn't all that great. If you force him into using Firebird, you should take his stock. The distance it travels is pitiful. If he's under you trying to recover, you can always Dair him or time an edgehog. Also, Falco has a hard time killing us. His only reliable kill move is Usmash which is really nasty as part of the Gatling combo (Dash attack ->USmash). But apart from that, he won't be killing us until were @ ~150% (Good DI pending).
I'll wait for a Falco main to show up before I continue or post a ratio.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
Aether can reach high enough to land on the stage if the Ike knows how to meteor cancel properly.
How?
You said that ledgehogging was a better option than following Ike with Bair, but the first option can be avoided easily. Which aerials can follow with after a Dair spike and how can Ike avoid it?
I didn’t understand this part; you’ve meant to say that Falco can turn around and Bair as an OOS punishment? You’ve said that Falco can punish aerials with Fsmash OOS?
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
Falco is annoying for poor Ike. I get chainspiked by Falco players sometimes. >_<
Ussi
Smash Legend
Guilhe, aerials can be done by jumping OoS as jumping will cancel a shield.. He meant spacing you're aerials wrong..
Guilhe
Smash Ace
That's it? What about that shielddrop Fsmash punishment? Is it simply letting go of the shield and Fsmashing?
Ussi
Smash Legend
well yea, but fair and dair are the only two aerials he can do it on. And a FF fair doesn't have enough time.
Kimchi
Smash Ace
I consider this an almost 75:25 matchup now after playing two extremely good Falcos. Falco's Jab cancel is extremely good. Getting by his laser game will just result in him SH lasering then quickly following up with jabs so you can't punish him if you get past his lasers. The game is all about getting within aerial reach of Falco then spacing your aerials. That's about it. Whenever I got into jab range, I either got Phantasmed or Lasered then jabbed by Falco. Not nice.
Narigo1
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2009
- Messages
- 317
- 3DS FC
- 4098-2763-4068
Falco can chaingrab ike to 50% due to to ike heavy weight and Falco can rack up more damage easily with laser. Ban either Jungle japes or Final Destination and cp Norfair is a good idea since Falco dominates ike on FD and ike does so poorly on Jungle Japes. I think ike retreating Fair works well against Falco. 70-30 in Falco's favor
Guilhe
Smash Ace
Falco can chaingrab Ike to 40%. The methods for punishing suggested by clowsui will work only if Ike screw his approach big time, his jab cancel to grab provides more reliable setups in my opinion. Let's not start mentioning ratios at the first page of discussion...
Cross.
Smash Ace
Gatling combo doesnt work after the chain grab just di up and away to avoid the Usmash. wtf? Falcos best option after a chain grab is Dair since it can lead to so many other things.
falcos phantasm gets beat out by ikes jab guys. If he just lasers and then phantasms away just jab to interupt it. laser->phantasm isnt a true combo, heck laser-> anything isnt a true combo.
D
Deleted member
Guest
this match is proof that this game was never playtested.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I hate this match-up.
3-7. It's winnable for Ike, but EXTREMELY hard. I consider anything worse then 3-7 to be unwinnable. Like, Bowser VS ICs. Ikes have beaten Falcos before, but I can only think of two (Ninjalink and Kirk).
Falco's jab is faster, but not better. He doesn't have as many options out of it, and there is some point in the jab where Ike can SDI down and jab before Falco's next move comes out due to lack of hitstun. (Ninjalink did it in his match against a Falco, which lead to him winning). We also have that nice, if VERY situational air release on stage edge -> walk-off fair true combo on Falco. That sends him to a dead zone very easily.
If you hated Jungle Japes before, you will hate it even more if you're stupid enough not to strike it against Falco. Pirate Ship still works, as his spike is a lot weaker then Ike's, and he can't do anything about us being in the water. Aether will shut down any attempts by him to get out out of the water. This is one of the few match-ups I would recommend water camping the MOMENT you manage to scrape out a % lead.
3-7. It's winnable for Ike, but EXTREMELY hard. I consider anything worse then 3-7 to be unwinnable. Like, Bowser VS ICs. Ikes have beaten Falcos before, but I can only think of two (Ninjalink and Kirk).
Falco's jab is faster, but not better. He doesn't have as many options out of it, and there is some point in the jab where Ike can SDI down and jab before Falco's next move comes out due to lack of hitstun. (Ninjalink did it in his match against a Falco, which lead to him winning). We also have that nice, if VERY situational air release on stage edge -> walk-off fair true combo on Falco. That sends him to a dead zone very easily.
If you hated Jungle Japes before, you will hate it even more if you're stupid enough not to strike it against Falco. Pirate Ship still works, as his spike is a lot weaker then Ike's, and he can't do anything about us being in the water. Aether will shut down any attempts by him to get out out of the water. This is one of the few match-ups I would recommend water camping the MOMENT you manage to scrape out a % lead.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
When people start to eat lasers and erupt themselves in fear of a chaingrab, you know they've lost their hopes. The Falcos still haven’t commented on the possible setups for gimp following CG -> Dair, I’ll check for it directly at their board. As it is now, this matchup doesn’t look that nightmarish for me. The CG will “only” cause 40%, CG -> Dair won’t be enough to kill, and the gatling combo is a very evident follow-up to Dthrow on-stage. Taking into consideration that Falco has some issues with finishing opponents, Ike could survive well over 160% with proper DI. I’m not sure about gimping, but I believe the Falco player should probably try to spam lasers, wall of pain Bairs or walk-off Fair. Ike’s approach should be limited to the ground only, but Ike’s approach by the ground never was a bad thing and Ike does beat Falco at close range combat in my opinion.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
No, eating a few lasers is defiantly a good thing in this match. And even with proper DI I doubt Ike will normally live to 160%. A lot of Falco's moves have horizontal knockback to them, with very little vertical. (At least the ones that got me). Try around 130%.
And Falco can compete with Ike on the ground due to his jab being faster. It's not at Ike's level overall, but it's still a pain. Silent Laser also gives Falco a small grab advantage, enough to combo into jab, which leads into grab. Ugh I hate this match. Such a pain.....
You should attempt to get him above you. There isn't much he can do if you're right below him onstage.
metroid1117
Smash Master
The match-up is hard because Falco has [arguably] the best spammable projectile in the game; after you take 50%+ from the chaingrab (chaingrab up to 45% then DAir spike or DAC USmash for more damage), you can't even approach him properly because of his lasers. It doesn't matter if you die at high %s if you can't even get close to do some damage; the best thing you can do is to run in while powershielding the lasers and, if you think he's going to grab you, shieldgrab right after powershielding to get him first. He can short-hop Illusion to get away from you; it is possible to hit him out of it with practice, but it is annoying since jabbing or grabbing are your best options, both of which don't have very big hitboxes.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
There are two KO moves that knock opponents horizontally: Dsmash and Fsmash. Dsmash is very swift and reliable as an OOS response but it’s still very weak even when fresh. Fsmash is very strong though only when it hits with its sweetspot, it’s also much laggier. Usmash is his most reliable killing move, being something more “in between” those two previously stated options, but then there’s the fact Ike’s heavy. So, as you can see, his killing game is lacking. I didn’t come up with the (160%) percentage, it is just how far I usually survive to when fighting Falcos.
Kimchi
Smash Ace
Falco's Fsmash is not too hard to sweetspot. Even sourspotting it sends Ike far enough so Falco could run and continue to SHDL.Guilhe said:
Unfortunately, as I found, powershielding then attempting to grab Falco is not pretty. Falco's Jab comes out ridiculously fast and I was unable to grab Falco. Instead, I suffered a Jab cancel -> Dthrow into Gatling Combo.metroid1117 said:
As metroid has said, the matchup is hard because it is VERY difficult to approach Falco. Even after getting inside Falco and jabbing the hell out of him, the most damage you're going to rack up is probably 30% and above. Then the whole hellish process of getting inside Falco repeats over and over. Meanwhile, Falco already has 50-70% on you and he can drain you down really quickly with lasers. Falco's Dash attack is also fantastic. This matchup is at least 70:30 Falco's favor.
Reiterating what I said earlier, I believe getting into aerial range than spacing your aerials is the best way to fight Falco. Throwing in a few jabs here and there will definitely help, but relying on Ike's ground game will not win you this matchup. Bair really helps here.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
I don't agree that running in while powershielding is your best option, SHAD is just as nice. Phantasm won't be enough for Falco to escape Ike, it has enough starting lag for Ike to shield it and ending lag for him to close in afterwards. It is possible to punish phantasm with if the Falco players uses it in a predictable manner. Anyway, if the Ike player shields it, the Falco player won't regain any space.
Against Ike, hitting a Fsmash is only possible through mindgames or if Ike lags right at his face. Fsmash hitbox becomes active during the 16 to 18 frames of execution. Also, DI up and you'll avoid the SHDL, the gatling combo, and survive longer while you are at it.
I agree that aerials are necessary for winning this matchup, but still, it is only possible to perform it safely in a very limited zone. Thanks to the SHDL laser, most of the approach will be done mostly on the ground wherever you like it or not.
metroid1117
Smash Master
Short-hopping with an airdodge won't work if Falco firing silent lasers; once he sees that you airdodged, he'll just rush in and attack when you land (there's still at least 2 frames of landing lag). Powershielding is, in my opinion, a better option because shields are only beaten by grabs; if you know he's coming in for a grab, you can just grab him right after you powershield.
I'm not talking about a grounded Phantasm; an aerial Phantasm has considerably less ending lag than a grounded Phantasm, making it much harder to punish. Phantasm is also very long, so if they use it to get behind you the only attacks that might work after you shield it are short-hopped FAir or dash attack; while both options can put the Falco in a bad position, they don't really lead into situations that can rack up a lot of damage like jabs can.
Falco doesn't have to kill with FSmash; he also has DSmash and BAir, both of which are very quick and can set up for edgeguards rather than out-right kills. For an FSmash, 16 frames is actually reasonable; Marth's FSmash is only slightly faster than that (10 frames for the hitbox to come out, but if you're hitting a target in front of you it will take slightly longer to come out in front). DI'ing won't help you avoid lasers, that's what airdodging/jumping/shielding is for.
Kimchi
Smash Ace
Hey, guess what? I just figured out Falco's jab comes out faster than ours.
Jab - Spinning Wings
-Damage: 4% - 2% - 1%, 1%
-Speed: Awesome, 2 frames for the first hit.
Jab - Spinning Wings
-Damage: 4% - 2% - 1%, 1%
-Speed: Awesome, 2 frames for the first hit.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
^No duh. Anyone knows that. :/
Fortunately for us Ike users though, Ike has a sweet jab cancel too. xP
Fortunately for us Ike users though, Ike has a sweet jab cancel too. xP
Ussi
Smash Legend
Fortunately, there is a point where you can shield/jab before the spinning part.
theeboredone
Smash Legend
Not everyone knows that, I think a lot of Brawl players have come to believe that Ike has one of the best jabs in the game, therefore, limiting their thought on that.
Also Kimchi, I think a few people in this topic have already said that Falco's jab is faster >_>...
Palpi
Smash Hero
Dashing under the first SHDL then power shielding is the best method for marth, im fairly sure.
As shown by sethlon the lagless silent lasers have proven more useful.
As shown by sethlon the lagless silent lasers have proven more useful.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
^yes, that's why I've been practicing Ike's jab canceling. 
Kimchi
Smash Ace
Reiteration does help those people who don't read
.Unfortunately, many good Falcos will cancel their first jab and proceed into a shield grab if you try to jab them after they cancel their jab.Ussi said:
Also, anyone notice that most of the spacies give Ike trouble? >_<
Guilhe
Smash Ace
I was talking about Phantasm in general. If the Ike manages to shield those, Falco can't resume his camping.
Meneil
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2008
- Messages
- 196
No matter how you look at it, this matchup is just terrible for Ike. You can't really 'rely' on any one particular strategy to work. Ground or aeriel games, power shielding or air dodging lasers, grabbing or jabs - you'll need to mix it ALL up. It's kind of like rock, paper, scissors, except if you both pick 'rock' (i.e. Falco jabs; at the same time Ike jabs), you lose, so you've got a 2/3rd chance of winning even at the most even of even-ness.
Now after making you suffer through my simile, and to completely contradict myself about giving general strategies, I shall offer a general tips. First: I'd rather take the gamble of possibly getting 40% from chain grabs than causing 35% damage to myself via lasers/eruption. It just doesn't feel worth it. So I'd say risk the chain grabs and try to get some damage in. Second, about approaching Falco. Well you have to, unless you want to get laser sniped. However approaching does not necessarily mean that you MUST attack! I usually wait to see what the Falco does when I approach. If they start going for a jab game, I concentrate on aeriel attacks. If they phantom illusion to the other side, make it look like you're going in for the approach and then backtrack to try and catch them. If they roll, go for jabs.
Once you've racked up some damage and can knock them into the air, putting pressure on the Falco is easier. It makes them harder to camp lasers/illusion. The tricky part is actually getting to this point, though.
After watching Kirk and Ren play against Arty, I've come to the conclusion that the best way to handle this matchup is to focus on Ike's fastest attacks - jabs, nairs, bair, ect. Falco's spot dodge is really too good to make any of Ike's range games work well.
CP Brinstar if it wasn't banned. :\
Anyway that's just what I think.
Now after making you suffer through my simile, and to completely contradict myself about giving general strategies, I shall offer a general tips. First: I'd rather take the gamble of possibly getting 40% from chain grabs than causing 35% damage to myself via lasers/eruption. It just doesn't feel worth it. So I'd say risk the chain grabs and try to get some damage in. Second, about approaching Falco. Well you have to, unless you want to get laser sniped. However approaching does not necessarily mean that you MUST attack! I usually wait to see what the Falco does when I approach. If they start going for a jab game, I concentrate on aeriel attacks. If they phantom illusion to the other side, make it look like you're going in for the approach and then backtrack to try and catch them. If they roll, go for jabs.
Once you've racked up some damage and can knock them into the air, putting pressure on the Falco is easier. It makes them harder to camp lasers/illusion. The tricky part is actually getting to this point, though.
After watching Kirk and Ren play against Arty, I've come to the conclusion that the best way to handle this matchup is to focus on Ike's fastest attacks - jabs, nairs, bair, ect. Falco's spot dodge is really too good to make any of Ike's range games work well.
CP Brinstar if it wasn't banned. :\
Anyway that's just what I think.
Ussi
Smash Legend
if i CP a stage, its Lylat. That stage is ANTI- spacies.
Using eruption to damage yourself is a fail idea. This isn't Snake's grenades which take a second to do (two nades + c4 + DI down + tech = 44% in 3 seconds) Falco can EASILY grab you in the after lag of eruption....
Using eruption to damage yourself is a fail idea. This isn't Snake's grenades which take a second to do (two nades + c4 + DI down + tech = 44% in 3 seconds) Falco can EASILY grab you in the after lag of eruption....
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
You know, I if Ike were more similar to the way he is in FE, he'd destroy Falco. XD
But anyway, yeah, there isn't really any effective strategy for Ike to use here. Best thing to do is pick another character that can take Falco easier.
But anyway, yeah, there isn't really any effective strategy for Ike to use here. Best thing to do is pick another character that can take Falco easier.
This may just be me, but I'm a lot more comfortable playing falco on brinstar. Less ways he can outcamp you, and there are plenty more options to approach, as well as the acid from the stage and low boundaries along with obstacles that eat lasers.
Ussi
Smash Legend
Brinstar is just a good stage for Ike in general san. Just there are lots of big names for brinstar too.
Arty
Smash Lord
Brinstar is definitely your guys best CP, but FD and Japes are almost unwinnable for you guys. I really don't know which one is worse. I would say FD because Falco can run circles around Ike on that stage.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
I went to the Falco’s Q&A thread and they recommended Dair to ledgegrab as well. I wasn’t betting Falco would have an awesome gimping game, most importantly, got to be careful to not get hit by those lasers. Shall we wrap things up and move on to the next discussion?
AvoiD
Smash Lord
So what did you guys agree on the matchup?
60-40 Falco's favor?
60-40 Falco's favor?