A1lion835
Smash Champion
But then we'd have 37 threads on the first page that will never be posted in again. : /
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Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!
- Thread starter Kewkky
- Start date
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Falconv1.0
Smash Master
I hate export threads. Dun do it.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Let's not end it just yet, Bunny has yet to give us her summery since she mains both characters and I don't see any other Ice Climber main to drop by. ☆
Triple R
Smash Lord
I really don't have that much to input. We all know we should space bair with care (hehe that rhymes!). I don't advise dair unless you absolutely know it will land. Sometimes since when it hits both Ice Climbers' sheilds it has enough stun that the they might release their shields too early, but, really, don't count on it (basically the same for dash attack). i wouldn't suggest grabbing them at all either. I know people say use upthrow when you grab them, but I don't think that's the best idea since most people with even a little experience can time a smash as you come back down simply getting you hit. It's probably still the best option has for as grabs go. I guess I wouldn't advise grabbing at all. Utilt is useful but risky if you are hitting their sheilds. It works wonders if you land it though. Cutter...... I know it can't be useful for hitting them back when they use blizzard and such, but I wouldn't use it if they are desynced. If they are desynced it's possible they might be able to retaliate before you recover from lag. If synced and doing blizzard/ice shot, go ahead and final cutter. It's feels satisfying, just be careful and know what they/you are doing. Watch out for blizzard to grab/death combos. That is really annoying... Personally I try to land some little chip damage as soon as the match starts and then when I'm ahead platform camp and let them come to me. It may be boring, but it's more satisfying than getting CGed to death <------ that makes me this >:0 Platform camping only makes me this 
Something I like to do in this match up is try to suck up one of the icies and spit them under the stage. It's extremely hard to get smart icies in this position though. If you happen to do this though, good. It doesn't equal instant death, but it's enough to create confusion for the opponent, mainly the nana, and that's where you might have a chance of putting it in your favor. I just thought I'd give some thoughts since the discussion is kinda non existent.
P.S. SPACE BAIR WITH CARE! <------- It's a new catchphrase, I swear
Something I like to do in this match up is try to suck up one of the icies and spit them under the stage. It's extremely hard to get smart icies in this position though. If you happen to do this though, good. It doesn't equal instant death, but it's enough to create confusion for the opponent, mainly the nana, and that's where you might have a chance of putting it in your favor. I just thought I'd give some thoughts since the discussion is kinda non existent.P.S. SPACE BAIR WITH CARE! <------- It's a new catchphrase, I swear
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Bunny : /. This wait is longer than the outrageously long voting sessions of a few weeks ago.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Patience is a virtue.
In the meantime, I'll post some thoughts on the Sonic MU. I'll get to Zelda after Bunny and/or some other IC mains post their thoughts on the Kirby/IC MU.
1: There is one thing that is more important than anything else in this MU, and that is to NOT PANIC!!! As soon as you let yourself get flustered, you will get owned. Remember that he is out prioritized by you, and even if he can move across the screen quickly, his approach moves are still a bit slower than yours frame-wise (note, I'm not 100% sure on this, it just seems like it and I don't know where the Sonic frame data is off-hand) and require more precision, seeing as you are a small target. Take advantage of it and think about where you want to be when he tries to attack.
2. He is going to approach because he has no horizontally moving projectile, and when he does he isn't going to attack with spin-dash almost ever. Any time he spins is a time when he wants you to think about what he is doing so you can over-think and he can capitalize on it. He can do all the cancels and fancy stuff he wants. At the end of the day, he is going to attack using a move other than spin-dash (though the attack may come out of it) and you need to be ready for it with a tilt or a low flying bair. They both beat out almost everything Sonic has, and if you are patient, they will connect.
3. If you get footstooled while close to the ground (about SH height) IMMEDIATELY DI towards the direction Sonic just came from. He will be trying to set up a jab lock using the spring as a "flop" attack and to give him enough time to get back into position. If you DI towards where he came from, you can give yourself more time due to him needing to dair in the other direction, and you should be able to escape it. If the lock does happen to you, DI towards the end of the stage to try and end the lock faster. He can use a kill move directly out of the lock, so the less damage you take from it, the better your chances of survival.
4. Find a section of the stage and plant yourself there, making sure to keep it from being invaded. Sonic has nothing to make you approach. If you try to, you are leaving yourself much more open than you need to. Let him come to you on your terms.
5. Sonic is going to have a very hard time outright killing you. Kirby is a small target, and you can play that up by making yourself hard to reach with his KO attacks whenever you are in KO range by doing SH shenanigans. Because of this, Sonic's best bet is to gimp you, and he is surprisingly good at it. Beware when you are off the stage. Sonic can go out a fair deal, has a strong gimping move in bair, and has more air mobility than you do (albeit, its not NEARLY as flexible as Kirby's offstage movement). Also be careful not to follow him on his spring. He may just be hoping you will follow so he can get an easy u-air gimp off the top. Just be cautious and you should be fine.
6. Don't use a Smash attack unless you know it is going to hit. The lag can hurt you pretty bad in this MU, even more so than usual.
7. A couple final things. Keep close to the ground in this MU. Some of Sonic's best stuff is from ground -> air, and if you keep low, he will have to come closer to you when he attacks to make sure his moves connect. This makes his movements when approaching seem a lot less sporadic. Finally, don't let Sonic get a percentage lead. As long as you have the lead, you are in control of who approaches who, and with your projectile (as bad as it can be at times) he is the one who will logicly be approaching in this MU.
All in all, this MU isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. Then again, my regular sparing partner has, like, a 5 frame reaction time and I'm used to seeing a lot of **** fly at me at ludicrous speeds. XD
I'm gonna go with 55-45 Kirby's favor. If the sonic mains think I missed something, please let me know.
Edit: Oh, and sorry for derailing the current MU discussion! XD
mohongwort
Smash Cadet
i would say, kirby and ice climbers the kirby has the advantage 60-40 cause if the kirby plays smart and doesnt get grabed it is kirby in favor imo and kirby could keep them seperate by using b-air and so it could be easy still get chaingrabed but it will be easier and you could gimp popo easaly
Why is it that people think Ice Climbers RELY on grabs to win?
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Because people don't take the time to learn about much lol.
Good IC's do all kinds of **** besides attempting grabs, those aerials are no joke and blizzard can sting your balls. Admittedly I don't know too many specifics but I've played it enough to know they aren't all grabs.
TEECO
Smash Ace
Because their grabs are the only reason they're so high on the tier list.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
True, but they're grabs force you to play differently, which make other parts of their game (especially Blizzard in this MU) more effective.
They can still win against the majority of low tiers without them. It's pretty **** difficult to pull them off, they can win games. You get grabbed at 50%, they'll just toss you around until you're at 110 and Usmash.
momochuu
Smash Legend
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- Momochuu
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Okay, first. This matchup is 70:30. If you think otherwise, you probably haven't played many good Ice Climbers players which isn't hard to believe because there's like four good ICs players. The main idea to beating the Ice Climbers that everyone knows is "don't get grabbed". Unfortunately, Kirby isn't very good at pulling this off. And even if he doesn't get grabbed, the Ice Climbers can still deal small amounts of damage through Up-air, Blizzard, Ice Blocks, and other attacks like those.
What Kirby can do:
It's actually less of "What Kirby can do" and more of "What Kirby can attempt to do". It's almost comical how little options Kirby has in the matchup.
His safest options are:
That's it. And even Back Air can get shield grabbed. Kirby does have a few other options however. They aren't very safe, but they're still options.
Out of those three, Forward Tilt is your best option. It's fast and you probably won't get shield grabbed if you space it correctly...maybe. Up Tilt works fine because of it's speed as well.
If you can manage to get Nana and Popo separated, WoP the AI Ice Climber until she dies or comes back extremely hurt. If the difference in damage is good enough, the AI Ice Climber is still in a bad spot because of how far back she gets hit compared to the human controlled Ice Climber. Swallowcides also work, if the ICs player you're fighting isn't used to it. If you swallow the AI IC, spit them out under the stage or something. If the human comes to save her, gimp them. DAir, BAir, FAir, anything that works.
In this matchup, look-out for the grab of course, Blizzard, and FSmash. Blizzard grabs are dangerous and Kirby can't afford to get grabbed. He's probably one of the easiest characters to chaingrab
Edit: Double Post. Oh well.
What Kirby can do:
It's actually less of "What Kirby can do" and more of "What Kirby can attempt to do". It's almost comical how little options Kirby has in the matchup.
His safest options are:
- Back Air
That's it. And even Back Air can get shield grabbed. Kirby does have a few other options however. They aren't very safe, but they're still options.
- Forward Tilt
- Down Tilt
- Up Tilt
Out of those three, Forward Tilt is your best option. It's fast and you probably won't get shield grabbed if you space it correctly...maybe. Up Tilt works fine because of it's speed as well.
If you can manage to get Nana and Popo separated, WoP the AI Ice Climber until she dies or comes back extremely hurt. If the difference in damage is good enough, the AI Ice Climber is still in a bad spot because of how far back she gets hit compared to the human controlled Ice Climber. Swallowcides also work, if the ICs player you're fighting isn't used to it. If you swallow the AI IC, spit them out under the stage or something. If the human comes to save her, gimp them. DAir, BAir, FAir, anything that works.
In this matchup, look-out for the grab of course, Blizzard, and FSmash. Blizzard grabs are dangerous and Kirby can't afford to get grabbed. He's probably one of the easiest characters to chaingrab
Edit: Double Post. Oh well.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
heeyyy
:D
The Olimar boards are discussing the Kirby Matchup
You guys should give us the opinions from your end
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172222&page=120
:D
The Olimar boards are discussing the Kirby Matchup
You guys should give us the opinions from your end
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172222&page=120
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Hrm...t1mmy also thinks it's 70:30. What's the stage situation like? As I recall, Brinstar and RC are good cps (RC more so).
Edit: 3 discussions at once, lol. Are there any complaints if we don't do a matchup until we finish Olimar and Link?
Edit: 3 discussions at once, lol. Are there any complaints if we don't do a matchup until we finish Olimar and Link?
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ If the match up is 70/30 then I must be playing extremely weak Ice Climbers mains and one Ice Climbers main that everyone loves lives in my state or I must play one hell of a Kirby... what I'm saying is that I don't agree with 70/30 and still on the mindset of 40/60. A that low of a match up seems unwinable in many people's eyes and we have a good amount of stage picks for Ice Climbers, though Ice Climbers have almost 45% of the starter stages above us, (Final Destination, Smashville being the most annoying for us so strike those), and we have stages like Pokemon Stadium, Norfair, Brinstar, Delfino Plaza, Frigate Orpheon Rainbow Cruise, and maybe more. ☆
☆ Alright, I won't rant anymore since typing match up's isn't my fortay, but playing them in person is. =P ☆
☆ Alright, I won't rant anymore since typing match up's isn't my fortay, but playing them in person is. =P ☆
A1lion835
Smash Champion
But what are some stages each side should go to/ban? Also, suggestions for next character?
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Whatever happened to the comedic genius that was Sheer Madness, who was certain it was 6/4 our favor.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ I blame the de-sync strategies they have. The only good news is Ice Climbers mains with the high skill level is hard to find, I'm not talking about Ice Climbers that's good with chain grabs, but the Ice Climbers that can abuse a whole lot of stuff with Ice Climbers like de-sync Blizzard or what my friend calls "Frozen Love". >.> ☆
☆ I think he's in the SSB64 forms or something, I only saw him post once on this match up thread. ☆
§leepy God
Smash Master
♪ You know there's not a lot of Kirby that plays the same as you Viper. especially anyother Kirby main that went to a tourney and got thrid place after everymatch of Kirby's disavantage match up. But it had to be a G&W main then Judge in losers finals to beat you. D: †
♪ Now come on, start a character I main, (that would be Marth, Ness, Ike, Pit, and ROB), since I sometimes hange around the Kirby boards for a few reasons. †
♪ Now come on, start a character I main, (that would be Marth, Ness, Ike, Pit, and ROB), since I sometimes hange around the Kirby boards for a few reasons.
†
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Speaking of Judge, we need to break the tie me and him have, I won one, and he won one, but we never got to Brawl eachother after that tourney, and that was before I knew that he was one of the top 5 best of MI. I'll agree with starting ROB. ☆
§leepy God
Smash Master
♪ Glad you agree with me from time to time. But it is up to the Kirby's on the decision of the next match up. †
†
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Bleh, sure. ROB.
Aww, I really wanted it to be Marth...
ROB? 60:40, ROB's favor. His fair and uair outrange and beat us in the air, and his ftilt and jabs bother us quite a lot on the ground... And even though his projectiles are very easy to powershield, not approaching and powershielding everything won't get the match anywhere, especially if we're on the losing side, forcing us to approach... All he has to do is rely on his fast attacks and camping, then use his fire attacks to finish us off (or his dsmash).
Kirby can gimp him easily if we're offstage and kirby's on top of him (dair>footstool, rinse and repeat), otherwise it's a bait-and-punish approach (make them do an attack, then punish them for it). If we're below him offstage, then we can just fly around him, us having lots of jumps and him two plus boosters limit his edgeguarding, whereas we have more aerial liberty+mobility.
Our grab game is great, but if it's a ROB that knows when to grab your approaches, you'll have a bit of a problem here... Stick to dthrows, since (if i recall properly) our fthrow combo doesn't work on him. And be careful of his dsmash! If he sees you're about to approach and attempt a grab, he'll most likely spotdodge>dsmash, leaving only a small window of frames for you to put your shields up (your grab won't be fast enough).
60:40, ROB's. I have a buttload of experience in this MU, and my opponents have been ranging between decent and great... And one of my crewmates mains ROB (along G&W and Yoshi), and his ROB is pretty freakin' good, and has Kirby experience thanks to me.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
you can also spam neutral A jab to avoid ic's grabs
it really works
i've seen how ic's can SDI behind falco when he's jabbing and still grab him
but can they do it to kirby? dunno but anyway. kirby's jabs can work in those moments. even if he gets fsmashed out of it, at least its not a grab
i suppose at low % ic's can shield grab it but
just bair them till they're no longer at low % haha
it really works
i've seen how ic's can SDI behind falco when he's jabbing and still grab him
but can they do it to kirby? dunno
but anyway. kirby's jabs can work in those moments. even if he gets fsmashed out of it, at least its not a grabi suppose at low % ic's can shield grab it but
just bair them till they're no longer at low % haha
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Nice summary, kewkky! I just have a few things I'd like to add...
1. Beware of glide toss approaches! He can glide toss -> f-smash, glide toss -> u-smash and if you shield the gyro, he can glide toss -> grab. This can help him to score some KOs at the higher percentages, or get you off-stage to try and WoP you off the side. I haven't played a ROB with my Kirby in about a month so I haven't tried this, but maybe you can spot dodge after shielding the gyro to set up to punish.
2. Be aware of the possible angles of his lasers, especially if you are off stage. One well placed laser can push you to the side wall, especially if you just momentum canceled an attack and are close to the edge. They can be a pain to deal with, but are slow enough to respond to on sight if you keep tabs on what he can do.
3. While I don't disagree with you about dair to footstools kewwky, I do think ROB's u-air deserves some recognition when talking about trying to do it. Its a fast and good ranged multi-hit move that ROB can do while rising with up-b. Its got a bit of lag on it, but not too much. Also, I'd argue that ROB has MORE mobility offstage than we do. His bair can help him recover without using fuel, and he has more staying power than we do with his up-b capabilities. Tack on the fact that he has a killing move that covers the full radius of his hurtbox (nair) and you have a tough off-stage customer. If you suspect nair, hit him with bair ASAP. The nair is a bit slow to come out and you can beat it if you time it correctly.
4. This is the type of MU where its handy to know frame data. ROB's d-smash looks like its almost instant, but it takes
5. Punish, punish punish. That is the name of our game here. ROB's moves are fast and have good range, but still punishable. learn the timing of his moves and what we can do to him in the down time. Tilts are good in this MU and like kewkky said, go for d-throw rather than f-throw.
If I think of anything else, I'll make mention of it. Yeah, somewhere around 40-60 ROB's favor sounds about right.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
I'm pretty sure they can, but that Nana gets desynched in the process, and they take a lot of damage from doing this, since SDIing our jab is tougher than SDIing Falco's.you can also spam neutral A jab to avoid ic's grabs
it really works
i've seen how ic's can SDI behind falco when he's jabbing and still grab him
but can they do it to kirby? dunno
i suppose at low % ic's can shield grab it but
just bair them till they're no longer at low % haha
For ROB, I'll post something later. I agree with most of what Kewkky said though.
GwJ
Smash Hero
ROB vs. Kirby is, IMO, a straight 50-50 matchup. ROB can camp, but Kirby doesn't have TOO much trouble getting around that, Kirby's grab game is pretty good, but ROB doesn't have TOO much trouble getting around it either.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
ROB has the advantage. ROB has aerials that outrange Kirby in the air, and ROB also can outrange Kirby on the ground too, not only that, but ROB can attack pretty fast, and it's almost impossible to gimp ROB with his amazing recovery and his great camping game makes it hard for Kirby to approach, ROB is faster than Kirby in the air and also on the ground.
Kirby, can rack up damage quite easily on ROB, and off stage hammer's are very applicable since ROB's is recovering back on stage it gives you the opportunity to whack him. Kirby can combo ROB like crazy, but that's really the only advantage Kirby has on him.
Counter pick Pokemon Stadium 1 or 2 vs ROB. Since the different objects prevent certain projectiles from getting through while making it harder for ROB to camp.
It's probably 60:40 for ROB on the CP stages, and 65:35 for ROB on neutral stages.
Kirby, can rack up damage quite easily on ROB, and off stage hammer's are very applicable since ROB's is recovering back on stage it gives you the opportunity to whack him. Kirby can combo ROB like crazy, but that's really the only advantage Kirby has on him.
Counter pick Pokemon Stadium 1 or 2 vs ROB. Since the different objects prevent certain projectiles from getting through while making it harder for ROB to camp.
It's probably 60:40 for ROB on the CP stages, and 65:35 for ROB on neutral stages.
GwJ
Smash Hero
It's not 65:35 on neutrals, sorry.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
lol 65/35 ROB on neutrals, which would make MK like ****ing 70/30.
Yeeaaaah no.
ROB's air game out ranges ours, but it's not too hard to punish it/avoid. I'm fairly certain our bair is faster. His ground game is annoying too. All he really has is that he has more range with good speed, it's no where near close to 65/35.
Maybe it's just me, I've never had too much trouble dealing with the stupid laser/top thing.
Yeeaaaah no.
ROB's air game out ranges ours, but it's not too hard to punish it/avoid. I'm fairly certain our bair is faster. His ground game is annoying too. All he really has is that he has more range with good speed, it's no where near close to 65/35.
Maybe it's just me, I've never had too much trouble dealing with the stupid laser/top thing.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Its not just you. ROB's camp game isn't that great against Kirby until he starts to mix it up with his close range game. As for fair, I think its on par with our bair. I'll check the frame data again in a minute. IDK about 65-35 ROB, but I can easily see 60-40 ROB if the ROB knows the MU.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
You can't compare MK to ROB for match ups. I would say playing ROB is about the same or a little tougher than playing against a MK player. I would rate it 60:40 in MK's favor, while rating it 65:35 in ROB's favor. My reasons for my analysis is based off watching some tournament video sets of Chu Dat vs Chibo, in which Chu's Kirby lost to Chibo's ROB, and Holy Nightmare winning against Y.b.m. Kirby.
Then you see matches of Chu's Kirby vs Inui's MK, in which Chu's Kirby wins, despite the fact that Inui is a good MK player. MK is overated while ROB is underated... in the Kirby matchup, and I knew people were going to complain about it while I was posting because of how ******** the brawl community is for overating MK to the point of having him banned from some tournaments.
As for Kirby's b-air, yeah its helpful, but would get predictable to the point where the opponent can match or beat the range on Kirby's b-air by using ROB's F-air, B-air, or N-air. Retreating N-air beats Kirby's B-air. ROB is faster, has more range, can outcamp Kirby, beat's Kirby in the air and also beat's Kirby on the ground (except for Kirby's F-smash), and it's hard for Kirby to go in for the kill when the ROB know's his frame data for N-air.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Umm... Why are you basing your MU ratio and information off of videos? I can understand watching vids to get ideas on how the characters play against each other, but you won't know the full story unless you a) have played the opposing character enough to get a feel for his/her options or b)you play both characters and already know all of the options. Vids NEVER tell the full story. If you have some personal experience, please use it. It makes it easier to talk. I digress though...
You shouldn't be spamming bair in this MU. With bit of clever footwork tilts can work very nicely.
ROB can indeed retreat his nair... in which case you don't bite and don't attack, just follow. It takes a full 18 frames for the first hit to come out. That is more than enough time to avoid the hit. Also, he just gave up some stage ground if you follow him and keep the pressure on.
Also, learn the ins and out of ROB's camp game and it becomes much less effective, especially considering how small of a target Kirby is. Sure, a good ROB can still hit you, but the margin or error is reduced DRAMATICALLY and so are the options for using his tools due to having to be in the precise location for them to work properly. On top of that, they aren't spam able.
Finally, for kills you should be looking for times to use a smash when it isn't expected or when you can use it as a punisher. We have no real set-ups for kill moves due to the range problem, so it would be a better bet to try and get ROB off-stage and attempt a gimp anyways. Just be REALLY careful when you do it for all the previously stated reasons.
Oh and sorry Falcon, you were right. Bair does beat out fair. Its only by one frame though, and ROB still has range on us.
§leepy God
Smash Master
♪ Not enough credit for the Pink Puff eh? Some of you guys are too soft on match up's. †
♪ Sure Kirby doesn't have the advantage on this match up over ROB but this match up is harder than you think. Stage picks matter and great timing over a Kirby main that moves a lot is hard to hit with the kill moves. Kirby has B-Air, D-Tilt, or even D-Air as a good approach, since ROB has projectiles, ROB can approach Kirby in many ways, but if a Kirby player is crafty, most of those idea approach won't work. Match up ratio: 45/55 ROB, ROB is hard to master that's for sure. D: †
† ♪ Sure Kirby doesn't have the advantage on this match up over ROB but this match up is harder than you think. Stage picks matter and great timing over a Kirby main that moves a lot is hard to hit with the kill moves. Kirby has B-Air, D-Tilt, or even D-Air as a good approach, since ROB has projectiles, ROB can approach Kirby in many ways, but if a Kirby player is crafty, most of those idea approach won't work. Match up ratio: 45/55 ROB, ROB is hard to master that's for sure. D: †
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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§leepy God
Smash Master
♪ Well, ROB's Down Tilt is more sexier so I'll give more credit to him.
† ♪ But the way I saw Viper approach with Down Tilt with Kirby was just confusing like Down Tilt to Forward Air, I don't know how he got that timing right, but then again, I'm no HolyKnightmare or ChiboSempai with ROB, those guys are barley human. ): †
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