• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

Lord Viper

SS Rank
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
9,023
Location
Detroit/MI
NNID
LordViper
3DS FC
2363-5881-2519
Ah ****, the replies are too many pages back for me to bring them up again, I'll try to be less of a fan boy, (though I don't know how my arguments was fan boyish in the first place), just trying to make sure that Kirby's not unappreciated, you know how it is.

But I'll start with an easy one, as Kirby rides the Dragoon, king of the sky's, though I can't say how fast Dragoon can truly go, (it wasn't said), but it flies 10x+ faster than the Warp Star. This Air Ride Machine has a great about of destructive power if collided with many objects, though not as strong as Hydra, it's strong enough to bring havoc on his enemies that are uber strong. Your responds? Waiting for someone to take my bait. >=]
 

WhatIsRaizen?

Smash Ace
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
894
Location
USA
Guys, I'm slowing stating to add characters from the bottom upwards.

This is what I've done so far:

F Tier

Pichu

- The devolve form of Pikachu. It's basically a weaker, slower, and punier version of Pikachu. Some of it's attack causes a 'recoil'. It stands at 1'00" and weight 4.4 lbs. Pichu's cheeks are pink, and it has a small, plump body with a short, jagged tail, and large ears. It isn't skilled at storing electricity, so when amused or startled, it often discharge jolts of electricity strong enough to affect adult humans.

Jigglypuff

- Jigglypuff is shaped like a round ball, with pink skin, large blue or green eyes, catlike ears, and a tuft of fur on its forehead. Its skin is rubbery and stretchy. It can inflate its body like a balloon (usually when it becomes angry; this is accompanied by a distinctive "honk" sound), or flatten its body, much like our fellow Kirby. An exact limit to the size it can grow to in this manner is unknown. Jigglypuff is characterized by putting enemies to sleep by singing a lullaby. It can easily adjust the wavelength of its voice to that of the brain waves of a sleeping being, allowing for it's pleasing melody to put its audience to sleep. It sings without pausing to take a breath, so if the opponent is resistant to sleeping, it'll potentially run out of air.

Jigglypuff's only threat move is "sing", which is resistible.

Popo & Nana

- Collectively known as the Ice Climbers. The only tool they carry, in their respective games, are wooden mallets to carve openings in ice and to club enemies. Other than that, they climb mountains.. basically anything could hurt these guys. What puts them above those in G Tiers, though, is their astonishing good teamwork.

G Tier

Olimar & Pikmin

- Can gather up to a hundred Pikmins.. and throw them at you.. Oh did I say that his Pikmins are the size of ants, and Olimar is the size of a queen ant? Okay well, not really, but you get the point. Olimar also has a ship, the S.S Dolphin. It broke after getting hit by a meteorite and then crashing down into a unknown planet, so I doubt the ship is on par with some other characters. What else can Olimar do? Hm.. most of his traits and abilities rely on his Pikmins (throwing them, plucking them), but they're pretty darn useless. Olimar could throw out a punch to weaken it's enemy... yeah. Olimar's species can't even breath oxygen, it's toxic to it's kind. - Break it's space suit! In S.S.B.B Olimar is about the size of half a human, but in his games he's the size of a quarter. Olimar has no superpowers, so he can't survive without the aid of his Pikmins.

R.O.B

- R.O.B is just a Robotic Operating Buddy. "R.O.B. receives commands via optical flashes in the screen. Once it lights up, it is ready to receive six commands. R.O.B. only functions correctly when coupled with a CRT type television, much like the NES Zapper." - In other words, it can not move without a T.V, let alone a CRT type.

Mr. Game & Watch

- Game & Watch is a hand-held game system, and Mr. Game & Watch is it's mascot.

What do you think? Accurate enough?
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
Thing is, Japan got Giyg who got 2 games, we got got Giygas who has one. Giyg was countering or getting his revenge, but Giygas was just declaring war. You have no interviews saying they are the same. Mother 2 got Giyg from Mother 1 while Earthbound got Giygas, a seemingly new alien with no prior appearances.

EDIT: Uffe. Earthbound NES (Earthbound Zero) was never released. And there, the alien was called Giegue. Since Giygas is not taking revenge, isn't confirmed to be the same as Giegue, and looks much different, you can make the case that they are different.
It'd only make sense for the US to call it "EarthBound: The War Against Giygas!" since the first Mother game was never released in the US. And here's my proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLLTijc0sNE

@ WhatIsRaizen? If you wanted to go by reality with that, Mr. Game & Watch is nothing more than ink in an LCD screen and R.O.B. is a plastic toy. The other two are waaay too low if you ask me. But I won't go into that since they're not the remaining six. Scratch that. Olimar is pretty small, isn't he?

@ Viper: What other appearances have these Air Rides made other than Kirby Air Ride? If anything, I'd think Hydra was more threatening than Dragoon ever was. It's slow, but as it gains speed, it also gains power. Dragoon is quick, but light. It really doesn't have power from what I've seen. Sub Space Emissary doesn't count, either.
 

Lord Viper

SS Rank
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
9,023
Location
Detroit/MI
NNID
LordViper
3DS FC
2363-5881-2519
What other appearances have these Air Rides made other than Kirby Air Ride? If anything, I'd think Hydra was more threatening than Dragoon ever was. It's slow, but as it gains speed, it also gains power. Dragoon is quick, but light. It really doesn't have power from what I've seen. Sub Space Emissary doesn't count, either.
The Kirby manga, almost the anime but they showed the main the Rocket Star, Wing Star, Formula Star, and Shadow Star. D=

And yes, since Hydra has better battle power, it does pose more of a threat, but it take too much energy to activate it, or in Air Ride takes 10 seconds to charge half power, and 15 for full power, it will run at half power. I feel that the Kirby games should focus on the Air Ride Machines, IMO.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
Where in Metroid Prime does she take damage from long falls? Bottom-less pits hurt her, but long falls where she hits the ground do no damage. The 2D Metroid's have no pits, therefore no pain.
Do you know why there aren't any bottomless pits in any of the side-scrolling Metroid games? Because, for once, we had a realistic game that didn't have bottomless pits like in Mario, or the strange way to die in Kid Icarus just by going up, but never being capable of going down, lest you die.

If you are seriously going to use AR to justify something, we might as well make everyone invunerable, super fast, and capable of high-speed flight. Do you want that?
I see no reason to make "everyone invulnerable, super fast, and capable of high-speed flight." I wasn't even aware that "super fast" and "high-speed flight," were AR cheats. I also am wondering who "everyone" is. It sure wouldn't be fun to play Metroid Prime if everyone was invulnerable, super fast, or capable of high-speed flight. Well, all right. Maybe super fast characters. I'd love to see a super fast Geemer.

Anyway, again, you're either missing or ignoring the point. (I don't know how someone could. This isn't rocket science.) I'm only bringing up the AR to show you that without something to cause Samus to return to the same spot from which she fell would mean that she would fall endlessly. But hey, if you want those other cheats in, knock yourself out. I don't know why you'd want whoever "everyone" is to be equal as you.

You don't have an official statement. Therefore you can't prove it non-canon.
And I have no reason to believe you, either. Where in all of the Metroid series does Samus even mention once that she met someone named Kirby? Nowhere. Not in Super Metroid at the beginning, not in any of the instruction booklets. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nothing. I don't have to accept it as canon. Strange how Samus just changes sizes! Whoa! I didn't know that. The burden of proof isn't on me. Essentially, there's no reason for me to believe that Samus ever met Kirby. What's your reason? She shows up? Oh, that's not a good enough reason. I'd like in-game evidence, as well as evidence from the instruction booklets from the Metroid series.

Viper JLT4GOV, Kirby is the weakest of the six. Telling us about things he can fly on just isn't going to cut it. I honestly don't see how he even beat Marth. Really?
 

Lovely

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,461
♣ So far currently my list after looking at some of the post: Samus> Sonic> Kirby> Ness> Lucas> Ganondorf. Sorry, I haven't seen enough proof that Ganondorf can mess with the rest above, sure he's immortal, but the rest of the cast has power beyond any other Nintendo characters, but of course I can be proved wrong still. ♥
 

bobson

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,674
I still don't see how in the hell Ness even stands a chance against Mewtwo, let alone Lucas. All the PSI in the world doesn't mean **** if your mind is erased before you even knew you were fighting someone.
 

metaXzero

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
2,586
Location
Under the ground.
And yet, comes Metroid Prime 2 which introduces Samus to pits and she teleports where she fell with damage. This doesn't contradict anything in the 2D games since you see no bottom-less pits there. IDK or care why the 2D games lack pits (don't say realism in this discussion or is their a suit that puts that increases our abilities and puts us into ball shapes now?). What I'm saying is what currently happens when Samus meets Pits.

My point is in order to fall into a bottom-less area in Metroid Prime, you have to use AR. Officially in game, anything could happen if you could fall into a pit, but you are unable to reach any of those areas so it's unknown. If you have to use a cheat device to find out what happens, we could just use that same device to make everyone utterly god-like. Points using AR are..,well moot.

My Samus-Kirby point is actually that YOU can't prove their meeting non-canon. Kirby's game has them meet, Samus's games don't deny it or contradict it. It very well may not be canon, but that can't be proven.

You can believe it or not, but you can't prove it false.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
The 2D games lack pits because R&D1 weren't lazy ****ers, and Retro Studios were. That's the big reason.

The real point, though, MX0, is that Samus teleporting out of bottomless pits is not an ability. It's a design device; a workaround. If every design device were to be implemented, Mario could actually slide backwards out of crawl spaces while standing at full height and with his upper body simply passing through the ceiling as if it weren't there.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
And yet, comes Metroid Prime 2 which introduces Samus to pits and she teleports where she fell with damage.
I know this. You told me a thousand times already. What's your point? Those aren't really pits to begin with. Samus is in the Sanctuary Fortress, which is high up. Retro Studios isn't going to make the Las Vegas-esque landscape below a playable part, and therefore, Samus is just going to return. Ta-da! Now, how many times do I have to tell you that before I go crazy? Why are we even talking about this?

This doesn't contradict anything in the 2D games since you see no bottom-less pits there.
There aren't any bottomless pits in any of the Metroid games. You've played all the Metroid games, right?

IDK or care why the 2D games lack pits (don't say realism in this discussion or is their a suit that puts that increases our abilities and puts us into ball shapes now?). What I'm saying is what currently happens when Samus meets Pits.
Realism. Sorry, but it's true. It's unrealistic for a planet to have a bottomless pit. Why? Because, you're going to be hitting something, and unless there isn't anything at the bottom, and if the place which you are in has gravity, you're going to be going back and forth, since there wouldn't be anything to fall onto.

My point is in order to fall into a bottom-less area in Metroid Prime, you have to use AR.
Duh. Here's another reality check. Had Samus gone to the other side, there would be land.

Officially in game, anything could happen if you could fall into a pit, but you are unable to reach any of those areas so it's unknown.
Oh, you want in-game without the AR? You know, there's a method for getting the Ice Beam before fighting Flaahgrah without having the proper tools to acquire the Ice Beam. Here's the fun part. Turn into the Morph Ball, and you fall forever. No, no, better yet, here's something else you can do without the AR. In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, it's possible to make the game cause Samus to fly in the air while on planet Elysia.

If you have to use a cheat device to find out what happens, we could just use that same device to make everyone utterly god-like. Points using AR are..,well moot.
You can, but what's the point of doing that? It serves no purpose for the reason I'm bringing up, which you continuously and blatantly ignore.

My Samus-Kirby point is actually that YOU can't prove their meeting non-canon.
I don't have to. There's no reason for me to. The burden of proof isn't on me.

Kirby's game has them meet, Samus's games don't deny it or contradict it.
They say nothing, either. Oh ****!

It very well may not be canon, but that can't be proven.
The burden of proof isn't on me. Ask anyone who knows anything about Metroid, and they'll laugh at you.

You can believe it or not, but you can't prove it false.
I don't have to prove it in the first place, because the burden of proof isn't on me.
 

Ray_Kalm

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,305
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
Ray_Kalm7
3DS FC
3626-0429-4546
SOTR had it right, pretty much. Though, I think Samus should've been higher on his list.
 

Lord Viper

SS Rank
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
9,023
Location
Detroit/MI
NNID
LordViper
3DS FC
2363-5881-2519
Kirby is the weakest of the six. Telling us about things he can fly on just isn't going to cut it. I honestly don't see how he even beat Marth. Really?
His games is proof that he's not, you don't want me to post a 2 page post about why Kirby should be top would you? I really don't want to because I would have to base it out of all his platforming games, and use his strongest advantages in all his games, etc. It may take hours to explain, and I don't like typing big in one post.

Him being able to battle in the air is of course is an advantage by it's self, I mean how many characters can even battle in the air and out of space without being in a ship? Only characters I could think of is Sonic characters and Kirby characters. And about Marth, you should know better than to just use sarcasm like that. XD
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,774
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
I still don't see how in the hell Ness even stands a chance against Mewtwo, let alone Lucas. All the PSI in the world doesn't mean **** if your mind is erased before you even knew you were fighting someone.
Ness has the ability to stop time and powershield anything that is not psi and 'splode people's brains. Also rolling hp meter + healing psi + recovering pp with items = best staller (excluding when he stops time).

Also according to the games, Mewtwo is only allowed 4 moves (I have no clue what his special ability is from the new games).

Lucas is also an excellent staller, but the recovery items from his game are terrible. He makes up for that by having the ability to powershield everything. He can't stop time like Ness though. He can also splode people's brains.

Also as a note from the EB/Mother games, powershielded attacks means that the person with the powershield up takes half damage and the other half is reflected back at the opponent (this damage ignores how much defense the opponent has). The only characters in this smash who could be considered as having "psi" moves are Ness, Lucas, and Mewtwo (Mewtwo is debateable). Lasers can be reflected by non psi powershields. They only work for three (can be buffered) hits and you can only have one type of shield up at a time. Psychic lighting attackss can go through them, but no clue of the chu's electricity count as
"psychic."

My list (no particular order within tiers):

Top:
Ness/Lucas

High:
Sonic
Samus
Kirby
Ganon
 

bobson

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,674
Also according to the games, Mewtwo is only allowed 4 moves (I have no clue what his special ability is from the new games).
If we go by the games, it's the same scenario. Mewtwo uses his ridiculous speed and sp. attack stats to attack first and either kill Ness in one hit or disable him and then finish him off afterward.

Incidentally, his ability is Pressure, which makes PP usage double for all of his opponent's attacks.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,774
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
If we go by the games, it's the same scenario. Mewtwo uses his ridiculous speed and sp. attack stats to attack first and either kill Ness in one hit or disable him and then finish him off afterward.

Incidentally, his ability is Pressure, which makes PP usage double for all of his opponent's attacks.
It's impossible to ORKO Ness due to his rolling hp meter. Also any damage done to Ness is reflected back to Mewtwo unless his abilities fall under PSI energy. A Ness who abuses the rock candy glitch has 255 in all of his stats and 999 hp and pp. Without abusing that glitch and simply through rng abuse Ness at level 99 has the stats of:

HP: 924
PP: 666 (loldevilwut)
Offense: 179 (+100) = 279 [ingame this counts the same as 255 though]
Defense: 51 (+80) (+30) (+80) = 221
Speed: 62
Guts: 85 (+127) = 212
Vitality: 61
IQ: 86
Luck: 81 (+30) (+35) = 146 [see notes]

Numbers in parentheses are stat boosts from equipment. Numbers in {} are from stat boosting capsules found throughout the game.

Equipment:

Gutsy Bat
Goddess Band
Star Pendant
Souvenir Coin

Resistance to sleep, fire, freeze [ice], flash, and paralysis.

*Offense and Defense deal with non psi moves. IQ is the same as the special stat in red and blue. When Ness uses his offensive move, he has a 1/16 chance of missing. I cannot find the guide that lists all the details on how critical hits and his evasion is calculated though...

Notes: HP and PP cap at 999. All other stats cap at 255 (even if his equipment would raise it past that number, it would still act the same as being at 255). With the way the game calculates Luck, it is worthless to increase it past 80.

Also, if we allow Ness to use items then he becomes practically invincible. Kraken soup fully heals his hp. Brain Food Lunch heals 300 hp and 50 pp by itself and combined with a jar of delisauce fully heals hp and a large amount of pp (dunno the exact amount of pp). There is also the magic truffle whcih heals 80 pp and is also boosted by the jar of delisauce (forgot the amount it's boosted). He can carry several of these.

Abilities:

Psi teleport gives him the ability to teleport (duh), run really fast, and stop time. There is also an alternate version where he spins around wierdly. Cost: 2/8 (the spinny version is the more expensive one)
Psi lifeup he can fully restore his hp. Cost: 13
Psi Healing can heal any status affect that afflicts Ness. Cost: 5, 8, 20, 38 (depends on the status effect)
Psi powershield halves all non psi damage taken and reflects the other half back to the opponent. Cost: 10
Psi Paralysis and Pk Flash give him a wide variety of status effects he can afflict his enemies with (PK flash gives a chance for an instant KO) Cost: 8-32
Lastly Psi Rockin can deal up to 960 damage. It has a chance to miss, but I can't find the equation for that right now... Cost: 96

Now let's look at Mewtwo:

Max Stats:

HP: 416
Attack: 350
Defense: 306
SP. Attack: 447
SP. Defense: 306
Speed: 394

If we look at the strongest move he can learn [hyper beam, yea I know this move sucks, I just looked through his move list and picked the one with the highest possible power] and I'll assume it uses his SP. Attack stat (I have no clue if how moves are calculated in pokemon). I'll just use the equation attk power of move + sp. attack = damage dealt to Ness since I'm too lazy to factor in his defence. We see that 447 + 150 is 597 total attack power. Even if it had the power to ignore Ness's defences (which it doesn't) it is not powerful enough to deal 924 damage. It also should be noted that even if Mewtwo was able to deal that much damage to Ness, Ness hp is a rolling hp meter (look a video of a battle in earthbound if you don't understand) meaning that he would have enough time to heal himself.

Why did I take the time to post this? I dunno, I'm bored lol. I'm not done with this yet, but I really have to go to sleep now.

TL;DR version: Ness has a rolling hp counter, the ability to stop time, heal himself, and powershield himself. How does that not beat everybody besides maybe Lucas?
 

§leepy God

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
3,301
Location
On The Move....
Looks like _clinton isn't the only one who know Ness and Lucas epicness. But as I may have said, I still believe Ness is stronger than Lucas always, so I'll put Ness above Lucas.
 

bobson

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,674
It's impossible to ORKO Ness due to his rolling hp meter. Also any damage done to Ness is reflected back to Mewtwo unless his abilities fall under PSI energy. A Ness who abuses the rock candy glitch has 255 in all of his stats and 999 hp and pp. Without abusing that glitch and simply through rng abuse Ness at level 99 has the stats of:

HP: 924
PP: 666 (loldevilwut)
Offense: 179 (+100) = 279 [ingame this counts the same as 255 though]
Defense: 51 (+80) (+30) (+80) = 221
Speed: 62
Guts: 85 (+127) = 212
Vitality: 61
IQ: 86
Luck: 81 (+30) (+35) = 146 [see notes]

Numbers in parentheses are stat boosts from equipment. Numbers in {} are from stat boosting capsules found throughout the game.

Equipment:

Gutsy Bat
Goddess Band
Star Pendant
Souvenir Coin

Resistance to sleep, fire, freeze [ice], flash, and paralysis.

*Offense and Defense deal with non psi moves. IQ is the same as the special stat in red and blue. When Ness uses his offensive move, he has a 1/16 chance of missing. I cannot find the guide that lists all the details on how critical hits and his evasion is calculated though...

Notes: HP and PP cap at 999. All other stats cap at 255 (even if his equipment would raise it past that number, it would still act the same as being at 255). With the way the game calculates Luck, it is worthless to increase it past 80.

Also, if we allow Ness to use items then he becomes practically invincible. Kraken soup fully heals his hp. Brain Food Lunch heals 300 hp and 50 pp by itself and combined with a jar of delisauce fully heals hp and a large amount of pp (dunno the exact amount of pp). There is also the magic truffle whcih heals 80 pp and is also boosted by the jar of delisauce (forgot the amount it's boosted). He can carry several of these.

Abilities:

Psi teleport gives him the ability to teleport (duh), run really fast, and stop time. There is also an alternate version where he spins around wierdly. Cost: 2/8 (the spinny version is the more expensive one)
Psi lifeup he can fully restore his hp. Cost: 13
Psi Healing can heal any status affect that afflicts Ness. Cost: 5, 8, 20, 38 (depends on the status effect)
Psi powershield halves all non psi damage taken and reflects the other half back to the opponent. Cost: 10
Psi Paralysis and Pk Flash give him a wide variety of status effects he can afflict his enemies with (PK flash gives a chance for an instant KO) Cost: 8-32
Lastly Psi Rockin can deal up to 960 damage. It has a chance to miss, but I can't find the equation for that right now... Cost: 96

Now let's look at Mewtwo:

Max Stats:

HP: 416
Attack: 350
Defense: 306
SP. Attack: 447
SP. Defense: 306
Speed: 394

If we look at the strongest move he can learn [hyper beam, yea I know this move sucks, I just looked through his move list and picked the one with the highest possible power] and I'll assume it uses his SP. Attack stat (I have no clue if how moves are calculated in pokemon). I'll just use the equation attk power of move + sp. attack = damage dealt to Ness since I'm too lazy to factor in his defence. We see that 447 + 150 is 597 total attack power. Even if it had the power to ignore Ness's defences (which it doesn't) it is not powerful enough to deal 924 damage. It also should be noted that even if Mewtwo was able to deal that much damage to Ness, Ness hp is a rolling hp meter (look a video of a battle in earthbound if you don't understand) meaning that he would have enough time to heal himself.

Why did I take the time to post this? I dunno, I'm bored lol. I'm not done with this yet, but I really have to go to sleep now.

TL;DR version: Ness has a rolling hp counter, the ability to stop time, heal himself, and powershield himself. How does that not beat everybody besides maybe Lucas?
I don't know the battle mechanics for Earthbound, so let's go with Pokemon. This is the damage formula for attacks, with "attack" being determined by the user's attack or sp. attack stat depending on whether the move is physical or special (Mewtwo would always be going off sp. attack unless the trainer is an idiot.) and "defense" working off the same for the opponent's defense or sp. def.

For our own purposes, let's classify PSI as Psychic moves and Ness as a Psychic/Normal type. Psychic resists psychic, so any PSI would be doing half-damage, as well as Mewtwo's psychic attacks. And let's give Ness a rolling counter for the hell of it.

Mewtwo will always be going first. If Ness tries to open with PK Rockin', Mewtwo can use Me First and send it back at him with +50% damage on it before he uses it.

Because of the way damage is calculated, we have some complications. Let's go ahead and assume PK Rockin' is like other "ultimate attacks" and has a base damage of 200. Ness' most powerful attack against Mewtwo would then cause {[(2*99+10)86*200]/250*306}+2*0.5*1.5(Ness would get STAB)*rand, or 37 damage. Mewtwo's most powerful attack (Hyper Beam while holding Choice Specs, which increase special attack by 50% but force you to use only that move), on the other hand, would cause {[(2*100+10)671*150]/250*221}+2*0.5*1.5*rand, or 288 damage. 144 if Ness has a shield up (but only for Hyper Beam). Obviously Hyper Beam wouldn't be the choice attack for the match and Choice Specs would probably be a bad item to be holding, but Mewtwo can pump out the punishment much more than Ness can.

Since neither player can kill the other in one hit, it comes down to who lasts the longest. And for that, I give you one argument: Ness has a limited inventory. Mewtwo has an infinite one.


And where are you getting this "stop time" from? Ness' teleport doesn't stop time, it's just a game mechanic so you don't run into the NPCs. If we're going by that, Mewtwo can "stop time" by just waiting before taking his turn.


In any case, strict game mechanics are a terrible way of handling this, as it always comes down to which character has the most arbitrarily broken stat numbers or items or equipment in their game, let alone mechanic discrepancies.
 

Sonic on the Rocks

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
1,241
Location
In your base, killing your d00ds.
Basically, the list should be:

Ganondorf
Sonic
Samus
Lucas/Ness
Kirby

Samus has a beam that could go through Ness and Lucas's Powershields.
Lucas and Ness are pretty much the same, so I put them in the same spot. It depends on whether or not the offense or defense is better.

I have never heard a thing about Ness stopping time. Source?
And Ness cannot " 'splode people's brains '. Ness hasn't displayed focused telekinesis.
Mewtwo has already been eliminated. He's not better than Ness. PK Rockin has a maximum base strength of 960, for the record.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
Basically, the list should be:

Ganondorf
Sonic
Samus
Lucas/Ness
Kirby

Samus has a beam that could go through Ness and Lucas's Powershields.
Lucas and Ness are pretty much the same, so I put them in the same spot. It depends on whether or not the offense or defense is better.

I have never heard a thing about Ness stopping time. Source?
And Ness cannot " 'splode people's brains '. Ness hasn't displayed focused telekinesis.
Mewtwo has already been eliminated. He's not better than Ness. PK Rockin has a maximum base strength of 960, for the record.
I agree with that list. I was a bit skeptical when it came to Sonic, but being Super Sonic, I'd reluctantly grant Sonic second place. As for Samus and her Arm Cannon, the Wave Beam is capable of passing through solid objects. The Hyper Beam, if we granted Samus that, is able to pass through solid objects as well, even breaking them down. But, without the Hyper Beam, Samus has a combination of the Long, Wide, Charge, Power, Ice, Wave, Nova, Spazer, and Plasma Beam. She can stack these, but the Spazer cannot be used if the Plasma Beam is used. That's fine, of course, since the Wide Beam would act like the Spazer Beam.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,774
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
I\Since neither player can kill the other in one hit, it comes down to who lasts the longest. And for that, I give you one argument: Ness has a limited inventory. Mewtwo has an infinite one.
Mewtwo does not have an inventory. Pokemon can only hold up to one item. I'll concede Ness's ability to stop time.

Also, the base for pk rockin is much higher than 200, but, I've found the battle calculations for eb... The way the pk rockin miss rate is calculated makes it unviable lol...

(((2 * target's speed) - Ness's speed) / 5)%

So now you may think Ness has no viable way of attacking Mewtwo due to that. Well I looked for some other stuff Ness could use and I remembered two other powerful moves.

A bag of Dragonite is an item in earthbound that turns its user into a dragon for one turn. It then deals a bunch of damage. The damage calculation for this is:

800 +/- 25%

It's also a fire elemental attack (but this only comes into play vs. Ivysaur and Squirtle). Another nice thing is that it ignores defence (all psi and item damage relies on formulas that ) and is entirely unreliant on it's users stats. So even if the bag of dragonite does the least amount of damage possible (600), that's still enough to ORKO Mewtwo. Even if you did factor in mewtwo's special defense, the maximum amount of damage would ORKO him (1000-306 > 416). There are 4 dragonite bags in eb.

Ness has another way to ORKO Mewtwo as well. Through pk flash:

Flash alpha
7/8: uncontrollable crying
1/8: feeling strange

Flash beta
5/8: uncontrollable crying
1/8: feeling strange
1/8: paralysis
1/8: instant death

Flash gamma
4/8: uncontrollable crying
1/8: feeling strange
1/8: paralysis
2/8: instant death


Flash Omega
3/8: uncontrollable crying
1/8: feeling strange
1/8: paralysis
3/8: instant death

*feeling strange is the same as confuse. Uncontrollable crying reduces the chance of your physical attack from hitting.

Since Mewtwo has no resistance to any of these status ailments (unless he uses safeguard, which doesn't protect from instant death), he will always be afflicted by at least one of them, if he isn't outright killed (which has a 3/8 chance of happening). He only needs to use it three to four times to get a ko on Mewtwo. This is also doesn't deal any damage that can be reflected at Ness.
 

bobson

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,674
Mewtwo has already been eliminated. He's not better than Ness. PK Rockin has a maximum base strength of 960, for the record.
Unfairly, yes he is, and 960 is the maximum damage the attack does, not the base strength from which it's derived.

I had a big reply typed up here but I deleted it because I realized how pointless this is. We are comparing two different games. Any conclusion we can come to on a strictly mechanic basis is completely arbitrary and in no way indicative of what would actually happen if the two, as characters, were pit against each other. The character from the RPG that uses the biggest numbers wins the whole contest by default, and for no other reason.
 

Lord Viper

SS Rank
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
9,023
Location
Detroit/MI
NNID
LordViper
3DS FC
2363-5881-2519
Wario, King Dedede, Mario, Luigi, Toon Link, Meta Knight, and Bowser is way too low. Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, and Snake is too high, IMO.
 

justaway12

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
4,139
Location
Over the hills and far away...
♥ The Mario chars are way too low especially in a game where items are allowed, even if they weren't I still think they should get higher mainly becuase of the RPG titles they starred in, but maybe i'm getting to ahead of myslef, I'm sure Raizen has a point, I guess I'll just be patient for the summeries, but I still think Bowser & Peach atleast>Capt.Falcon ♥

♥ I have a habit of getting ahead of myself sometime ^_^;. ♥
 

bobson

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,674
Kirby is eight inches tall. He beats Mewtwo?
Link beats Fox? Donkey Kong loses to Peach?

You'd think with a thread this long there would actually be some debate that went into this, but it looks pretty much like you just flipped coins.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

Smash Ace
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
894
Location
USA
Kirby is eight inches tall. He beats Mewtwo?
Link beats Fox? Donkey Kong loses to Peach?

You'd think with a thread this long there would actually be some debate that went into this, but it looks pretty much like you just flipped coins.
First off, I've already mentioned that the current tier list is NOT official. So certain characters could still move around.

Second, if you look back at the debates in this thread, you'll see why some characters are above others. I think it was Justaway who gave solid facts on why Peach should be higher than Donkey Kong, Bowser, and Zelda/Shiek. I may need to reconsider putting Link over the space animals though, but once again, the list is STILL changeable.
 

bobson

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,674
I think it was Justaway who gave solid facts on why Peach should be higher than Donkey Kong, Bowser, and Zelda/Shiek.
"Solid facts" like "Kirby can't be cut" and "Peach quite frankly just wins?" Or "solid facts" like they were in an RPG where there was some kind of bull**** rare item that they can abuse? I can hardly give you the benefit of the doubt after what I've seen in this thread.

I move for Bowser to beat everyone because he had a rod in Paper Mario that made him totally invincible.
 

Sonic on the Rocks

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
1,241
Location
In your base, killing your d00ds.
Tier List Comments

SS Tier
Ganondorf

S Tier
Sonic
Samus
Ness
Lucas
Kirby

A Tier
Mewtwo: Why is Mewtwo so high? He might be one of the strongest Pokemon, but he's not Uber.
Link: I forget, is this JUST Twilight Princess Link?

B Tier
Pokemon Trainer
Fox: Fox should be grouped with Falco; they have access to all of the same weaponry and vehicles.
Lucario: How'd he get here?
Wolf: Wolf should be right above Fox/Falco, Wolfens are better than Arwings and Wolf is stronger, faster, and more durable than either of them.
Falco
Snake: Switch him with Zero Suit Samus.
Zero Suit Samus:

C Tier
Ike: He, Roy, and Marth should all be higher than this.
Roy
Marth: Marth > Ike
Pit: Should be higher.

D Tier
Metaknight: Should be lower.
Pikachu
Young Link: Is this just OoT/Majora's Mask, or all of the "Young Links"?
Mario: [SIZE="3] WAY TOO LOW, ALONG WITH ALL OTHER MARIO CHARACTERS[/SIZE]. Imma call in some backup on this one. *goes to PM*
Toon Link: Too low; TL has a ton of weapons, and can freeze time.
Luigi

E Tier
Captain Falcon: Should be higher, he has a gun and his racecar, which is good for ramming people at a few hundred miles per hour.
Peach
Zelda/Shiek
Donkey Kong
Bowser: WTF

F Tier
King Dedede
Wario
Diddy Kong: Should be a little higher.
Pichu
Doctor Mario: Since he's pretty much the same as Mario, why don't we just ignore him?
Jigglypuff: Lolwut. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Jigglypuff_(Pokemon)#Learnset Jigglypuff has a ton of moves.
Ice Climbers
Yoshi: How did Yoshi fall all the way down here?

G Tier
Olimar & Pikmin
R.O.B
Mr. Game & Watch: G&W > ROB and Olimar, since he has all of that junk from his games. And the fact that ROB is basically a hunk of plastic.

Zolga, stop whining.
 

RyuReiatsu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
408
Kirby is eight inches tall. He beats Mewtwo?
Link beats Fox? Donkey Kong loses to Peach?

You'd think with a thread this long there would actually be some debate that went into this, but it looks pretty much like you just flipped coins.
"Solid facts" like "Kirby can't be cut" and "Peach quite frankly just wins?" Or "solid facts" like they were in an RPG where there was some kind of bull**** rare item that they can abuse? I can hardly give you the benefit of the doubt after what I've seen in this thread.

I move for Bowser to beat everyone because he had a rod in Paper Mario that made him totally invincible.
I agree with you at 200%, sir.
 

Lord Viper

SS Rank
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
9,023
Location
Detroit/MI
NNID
LordViper
3DS FC
2363-5881-2519
I almost agree with you Sonic on Rocks, though Meta Knight is like Kirby in terms of strength, except Kirby's stronger because of Copy Ability. And I think Wario's too low.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

Smash Ace
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
894
Location
USA
Link is TP Link, Young Link is OoT/Maj Link, and Toon Link is WW Link. I'll make some of those changes.
 
Top Bottom