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Potassium Overdose: What opponents can really do with our Bananas (1/29/10)

Ingulit

Ing-u-lit
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
1,828
Location
Huntsville/Tuscaloosa, AL
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POTASSIUM OVERDOSE
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Too many Bananas can be a bad thing
V. 0.5

We’ve all heard it before: in countless match-up threads the point is raised that “if you can use Diddy’s Bananas against him, the match-up is easy,” but rarely is what other characters can do with our Bananas even mentioned. Indeed, when this point is raised, it seems like Diddy mains don’t even care if, or even how, they can use Bananas against us. For example, did you know that we’re not the only ones with a Single Banana Lock, that Sheik has discovered one too? What about Ganondorf; did you know he has the real “Banana Choke,” which can lead to a GUARANTEED WIZARD PUNCH if we unknowingly buffer a get-up attack? It’s this not knowing, this ignorance towards the other character’s attempts with Bananas that will ultimately get us punched in the face. And with Diddy’s new spot in the top of the tier list, you can be sure the other character boards are working to try and break our Banana game to bring us back down. While our current strategies are working well, a character that might have even a terrible match-up against us could suddenly become a decent counter because they discovered a Banana tech we couldn’t adjust to in time. Therefore, it is the goal of this thread ensure we Diddy mains know what the other boards are doing, so that we’ll be better prepared for when the opponent “uses Diddy’s Bananas against him.”

This will be a list all known Banana techs exclusive to characters other than Diddy, and to serve as a discussion about how to avoid/nullify the opponent’s ability to use these techs.

This will be organized by first listing what characters can perform certain general techniques (Dribbling, Banana Locking, etc). Then the character techs will first be split into two categories under their respective characters: ones we know have Banana techs and ones we don't. These two categories will then be organized by the characters' positions on the Tier List 3.0. And to spell out the obvious: Diddy Kong will not be covered :rolleyes:

The techs and combos listed here will be those that have unconventional approaches, are not often noticed or encountered, or are particularly devastating if the opponent should pull the tech/combo off. Glide Toss > F-Smash combos are rather well known, and most Diddys will be looking out for that kind of approach when facing characters who can do that, simply because we all have encountered these approaches before (and use them!). If we are caught off-guard by something weird the opponent does with a Banana, then it goes here to be discussed.

I must conclude by stressing that this will NOT be the only update of this thread (as of 7/20/09, an entire section is missing!); I only play a select few characters and only know of so many Banana techs. For this to succeed, we must all work together to collect the techs other characters are researching so that we may defend ourselves when the match-up comes around. In short: I NEED YOUR HELP. This cannot work without it.

And on the noting of Player-1, I also want to stress that we are simply gathering what the other character boards have done, NOT trying to advance their Banana game against us. This is NOT a research thread, but more of a complement to the match-up thread with a focus on Bananas. We just want to know what they know what they can do, not tell them new things ;)

-=-=-=-=-=-
-= UPDATES =-
-=-=-=-=-=-

7/20/09
- Thread started, still in a WIP phase.
- Thread begins at V. 0.3
- General Techs is not yet up and running.
- Added Sheik's Single Banana Lock tech.
- Added Ganondorf's Banana Choke tech.
- Added the "Has no Banana Techs" and "Unchecked" sections

7/21/09
- Cleaned up the format
- Change in format brings thread to V. 0.5
- Added the "Damaged/Pain Caused" sections
- Added the lists for Dribbling, Single-, and Double Banana Locking
- Moved Captain Falcon to the "Has no Banana Techs" section
- Added Snake's Wavebounced "Z-Drop" Grenade Pull tech
- Added Ganondorf's HRC Banana Choke Starter tech
- Added Bowser's Klaw Hop Over Bananas tech
- Added Bowser's Banana Bomber tech
- Added Sonic's Spin Dash Over Bananas tech
- Added Sonic's Spring Regrabbing tech

7/22/09
- Corrected some consistency issues in the Character Specific Techs section
- Fixed the order of the Character Specific Techs section
- Added Snake's Double Drop Tech Chase tech
- Added Zero Suit Samus's Stun Gun Chain tech

8/1/09
- Updated Snake's Double Drop/Banana Tech Chase tech

8/13/09
- Added Pit's Wingdashing tech
- Added Squirtle's Itemplane tech
- Added Squirtle's Hydro Tossing tech
- Added Yoshi's DJC Item Throw tech
- Updated Ganondorf's HRC Banana Choke Starter tech

9/9/09
- Added Zero Suit Samus's Stun Banana Choke tech

1/10/10

- Added Fox's Drillshine Banana Combo tech
- Added Wolf's Double-Trip Cross-Up Combo tech

1/23/10
- Added Donkey Kong's Cargo Banana Choke tech

1/29/10
- Added the Banana Choke Chaingrab section under General Techs
- Added Captain Falcon's Knee Combo tech

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-= GENERAL TECHS =-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I'll make these pretty later

List of Characters who can Banana Choke Chaingrab

  • :mad088:
    NOBODY!!
    If you're about to post any combo involving Grab Release > Banana Slip > Re-Grab, DON'T. It is NOT a combo for any character; you can be sure we researched the **** out of it.

    EXCEPTION: DK's Cargo Banana Choke is legit.
List of Characters who can Dribble

  • :snake:
    Snake (Hard to do; only backwards)
    .
  • :lucario:
    Lucario
    .
  • :zerosuitsamus:
    Zero Suit Samus (Hard to do)
    .
  • :mario2:
    Mario
    .
  • :samus2:
    Samus
    .
  • :ganondorf:
    Ganondorf (it sucks)
List of Characters who can Double Banana Lock

  • :zerosuitsamus:
    Zero Suit Samus (?)
    .
  • :wario:
    Wario (?)
List of Characters who can Single Banana Lock
A description and video of this is under Shiek's section; these characters all do it the same way

  • :gw:
    Mr. Game and Watch
    .
  • :lucario:
    Lucario (?)
    .
  • :sheik:
    Sheik
    .
  • :falcon:
    Captain Falcon
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-= CHARACTER SPECIFIC TECHS =-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

:snake:
Snake
Wavebounced "Z-Drop" Grenade Pull
OP: Susa's Post

Conditions:
Snake must have a Banana in hand

Description:
If Snake pulls out a Grenade while holding a Banana, he'll drop the Banana in a manner very like Z-Dropping. The difference here is that if he pulls a Grenade out in the air, he can B-Reverse and Wavebounce the Grenade pull WHILE Z-Dropping the Banana as a defensive maneuver.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Makes juggling Snake harder

How to avoid/punish:
...


Double Drop/Banana Tech Chase
OP: Susa's Post

Conditions:
Snake must have a Banana in hand

Description:
An application of Double Dropping a Banana (Short Hop > Z-Drop > Trip Opponent > Instant Throw the Bounced Banana Down again), Snake's Double Drop lead directly into his Grab, and therefore his D-Throw. When he uses the D-Throw, the Banana is now behind you, and if you roll into it, you will trip and (if the Snake predicts right) eat a full F-Tilt. OR, Snake can run up Pivot Grab you again, and if you decide to roll backwards AGAIN you'll slip again and start the whole mess over again. The Grab > Banana Slip chain can also be started by Snake using a Forward Glide Toss > Boosted Pivot Grab.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: 41% if F-Tilted after rolling into Banana
Damage: A lot if Pivot Grabbed out of the Banana slip and you continue to roll into it
Removes the option of safely rolling behind Snake out of the D-Throw, making you predictable

How to Avoid/Punish:
If you think you see this coming, turn around; it's harder for Snake to do this off of our back. In any case, Snake is very slow when approaching for something like this, and you shouldn't be letting him this close to you anyway. Just F-Air him if he's in front of you or B-Air him if he's in back. The way he'll usually get you with this is if he predicts you rolling behind him, so avoid that if possible. As for the Glide Toss setup, simply avoid the Glide Toss like you normally would.
:zerosuitsamus:
Zero Suit Samus
Stun Gun Chain
OP: Susa's Post

Conditions:
Works at any % (easier at higher percents)
Zero Suit Samus must have a Banana in hand

Description:
If Zamus gets off a Stun Gun while holding a Banana, she can immediately Glide Toss forwards to trip you out of the stun animation and then start a D-Smash chain/follow-up.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: 31%+
Sets up a D-Smash follow-up

How to Avoid/Punish:
...


Stun Banana Choke
OP: ZSS infinite on Diddy
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVsYrsefqCQ
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lHyIWqLWfg


Conditions:
Diddy has at least 28% (Training Mode percent)
Zero Suit Samus must have a Banana in her control right behind you
Zero Suit Samus must be in very specific spacing

Description:
This is essentially a more advanced (and much more painful) version of what Diddy mains used to call the Banana Choke. Zamus's combines Banana trips, her stunning D-Smash, and her tether Grab to keep the chain working. This is an infinite until the Banana disappears, meaning if the Banana was relatively fresh (or if you were at a high percent to begin with), this is a to-death combo. If she has a Banana on the ground near her and is near you (and you have at least 28%), this is the chain to watch out for:

D-Smash > Banana Pick-up > Banana Throw > Grab > Pummel > Grounded Grab Release > D-Smash (> D-Smash) > Dash Grab > Pummel > Grounded Grab Release > ... > D-Smash (> D-Smash) > Follow-up

Note that this is easily done out of a JCT or Stun Gun, both of which are relatively easy setups for Zamus to pull off. The reason this needs to be used once Diddy is past 28% is because the D-Smash at higher percents will keep Diddy held still when the Banana is thrown at him, creating perfect spacing for the rest of the combo. Below 28% Diddy will break free of the D-Smash's stun quick enough for the Banana to hit him as though it hit him in the air (IE, it won't trip him).

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: A lot of %
Can be a to-death combo

How to Avoid/Punish:
Once you're caught in it, know the Grab Release > Banana Trip > D-Smash is not a true combo (just like the Banana Choke), and you can roll away from ZSS in the amount of time before the D-Smash comes out. Do so quickly, though, or you'll fall right back into the combo again.
:pit:
Pit
Wingdashing

Conditions:
A Banana must be nearby Pit

Description:
Wingdashing is a well-known but not-often used Advanced Technique for Pit. To do it, you Jump > Up-B > D-Air in rapid succession. While Wingdashing, you can move left or right, which looks very much like the old Wavedash. Because of the use of D-Air and because using Up-B close to the ground allows Pit to move over Bananas without being tripped, this can be a way for Pit to grab grounded (or even thrown) Bananas. His Up-B also produces Windboxes that will push you back if you are close.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Pit picks up a Banana for use
Windboxes can push you back or negate moves

How to Avoid/Punish:
...
:dk2:
Donkey Kong
Cargo Banana Choke
OP: Luigi player's Post
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq9PcOYrzOU#t=2m26s


Conditions:
There must be a nearby Banana under DK's control

Description:
Donkey Kong has his own version of the Banana Choke Chaingrab (the Grab Release-into-Banana Choke, not Ganondorf's AT) where he puts you into a Cargo hold and lets you go near a Banana. The Cargo's Grab Release animation is much shorter than other Grab Releases, allowing DK to re-grab Diddy before he can react. Once Diddy is at a high percent, DK can also finish Diddy off by using a D-Smash instead of a re-grab.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: Varies by number of re-grabs and the use of D-Smash
Leads into a kill move

How to Avoid/Punish:
This one is obvious: don't get grabbed. Once you've been grabbed, take comfort in the fact that the Banana disappears fairly quickly, and that you'll be stuck in the Cargo hold longer at higher percents (meaning it may disappear before you're released, meaning he can't get the D-Smash off).
:fox:
Fox
Drillshine Banana Combo
OP: Banana Combo to Hyphen Smash for use against Diddy Kong
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78clPnFWMgU


Conditions:
Fox must have a Banana in hand

Description:
The combo: Full Hop > Z-Drop > Fast Fall + D-Air + Banana Pickup > Shine > Jump Canceled Item Toss > Hyphen Smash

This combo can be used at high percents to lead into a Hyphen Smash, ultimately a kill move. See the thread and video for a better explanation.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Kills from: ~80%-150%

How to Avoid/Punish:
Fox must approach out of a Full Hop directly above you for this combo to work, meaning an up-thrown Banana or an U-Tilt should stop it. If you get caught in it, you can tech the Shine at higher percents, or (according to ADHD) you can DI either the D-Air or the Shine to avoid the Shine or Hyphen Smash, respectively. If the D-Air causes you to trip, however, the Shine is guaranteed, meaning you'll have to tech it or DI it to save yourself.
:wolf:
Wolf
Double-Trip Cross-up Combo
OP: Charged F-Smash + 26% Banana combo for use against Diddy
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDBik39ITko

Conditions:
Wolf must have a Banana in hand

Description:
The combo: Short Hop over Diddy so that you'll land behind him > Throw the Banana down so it hits him in the "front" > The Banana will push Diddy backwards as he trips > Land behind Diddy and use Down-B > Diddy will be pushed back the other direction and will trip on the Banana again > Charged F-Smash or Hyphen Smash

This is a guaranteed combo at any percent due to Wolf's Shine's fixed knockback. This combo causes you to trip twice, allowing Wolf to tack on some damage and land a charged F-Smash or a Hyphen Smash after the second trip. This is a kill combo at any percent over ~120% if they use Hyphen Smash.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: ~26%
Kills from: ~120%+

How to Avoid/Punish:
Wolf must short hop over you with very specific spacing in order to get this to work, so keeping Wolf at bay with Bananas and Peanuts might hurt his ability to get in range. Once you're in the combo, you're stuck, so start buffering a get-up attack or a regular stand-up in the hopes that the Wolf will have charged his F-Smash for too long.
:sonic:
Sonic
Spin Dash Over Bananas

Conditions:
None

Description:

This one is simple, and everyone should know it. Sonic can go over a Banana and not trip when he uses one of his Spin Dashes.

Damage/Pain Caused:
He won't be tripped by grounded Bananas

How to Avoid/Punish:
Sonic can still be tripped out of a Spin Dash by a thrown Banana, so just keep one in hand in case he tries to approach.


Spring Regrabbing
OP: BlazingKatakiri's Post

Conditions:
Sonic must have a Banana in hand (or you must have recently thrown one upwards)

Description:
This is mostly a mindgame, though it probably has some juggling uses. Sonic can throw a Banana upwards and immediately catch it with his Up-B. He can also use this tactic to catch Bananas that WE threw upwards.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Potential Mindgame
Can catch your up-thrown Bananas

How to Avoid/Punish:
...
:sheik:
Sheik
Single Banana Lock
OP: InnocentRoad's Sheik tech vid things
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHHb_JRmmTk


Conditions:
Works at any %
Sheik must have a Banana in hand

Description:
While I'm not convinced this is frame-perfect, this is a scary tactic if a Sheik player has mastered it. Like our own Single Nana Lock, it appears quite hard to do consistently, but it leads into painful follow-ups if landed.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: You're ****ed
Leads into a ton of combos, but you'll be at such a high percent that a Mario D-Tilt could kill you

How to Avoid/Punish:
...​
:bowser2:
Bowser
Klaw Hop Over Bananas

Conditions:
None

Description:
Bowser can use his Klaw Hop (that is, his ISJR using his Side-B repeatedly) to avoid landing on a Banana, and thereby not be tripped.

Damage/Pain Caused:
He won't be tripped by grounded Bananas

How to Avoid/Punish:
Peanut volleys and thrown Bananas will take Bowser down to the ground, where he'll trip on the Banana.


Banana Bomber
OP: Susa's Post

Conditions:
Bowser must have a Banana in hand

Description:
While in the air, Bowser Z-Drops the Banana, and while you are tripped, he lands and uses Down-B. The Down-B will hit you into the slam, which is a guaranteed kill move at relatively low percents.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: 28%
Kills from: 100%-110%

How to Avoid/Punish:
...
:pt: :squirtle:
Squirtle
Itemplane
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230879

Conditions:
Squirtle must have a Banana in hand

Description:
This is an application of the ability to use an F-Smash while holding a Banana. While Squirtle is in his Dash turnaround animation, he can start holding Attack without Jabbing or in any way interrupting the animation. This means Squirtle can then press the C-Stick forward to start charging an F-Smash, just like the normal application. Unfortunately, that's not the end of the story; by holding Attack during the Dash turnaround animation and then inputting the commands for a Hyrdoplane F-Smash, Squirtle can perform a huge slide (all the way across Smashville, for length reference) while charging his F-Smash, which, when Squirtle lets go of Attack, will cancel the slide at that point and unleash the F-Smash. That allows him to approach from very far away with a Banana in hand and still hit us with a powerful smash. Squirtle also gets Super Armor frames during the F-Smash, which can make this further irritating.

Damage/Pain Caused:
One charged F-Smash to the face; varying percents
Squritle gets Super Armor frames during the F-Smash
Can be used from very long distances in a very short amount of time
Can be used as an excellent fake-out if one is not careful

How to Avoid/Punish:
...


Hydro Tossing

Conditions:
Squirtle must have a Banana in hand

Description:
Squirtle does a standard Hydroplane (IE, slides a huge distance across the stage out of a Dash turnaround animation) but instead of U-Smashing, he throws the item sort of like a ridiculously long Glide Toss.

Damage/Pain Caused:
The Banana will trip Diddy
Squirtle can follow up with an attack after closing in from a long distance to capitalize on the Banana trip

How to Avoid/Punish:
...
:yoshi2:
Yoshi
DJC Item Throw

Conditions:
Yoshi must have a Banana in hand

Description:
Yoshi can cancel the vertical momentum of his second jump at any time by using either a Special move or an Item throw; this is called Double Jump Canceling, or DJC. By doing this, Yoshi can obtain much horizontal momentum, which is particularly notable when he uses DJC close to the ground. Yoshi can use this at any time during a short hop, be it empty or after an aerial such as B-Air. By throwing a Banana with this technique, Yoshi can safely retreat or approach after using a short hop option and then follow with a Jab if one Spot Dodges the Banana or with a Down-B for a kill at higher percentages.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: Potentially 20%-ish
Leads into a kill move
Allows Yoshi to space our attacks
Can be mixed up with Neural-B to switch between a Banana throw and essentially an air Grab

How to Avoid/Punish:
To keep this basic, have a second Banana out and use it to stop Yoshi from approaching with this.
:falcon:
Captian Falcon
Knee Combo
OP: "Handling your Banana" - Falcon's Banana Assisted ATs.
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2Or3DsxboI&fmt=22


Conditions:
Works at any %
Captain Falcon must have a Banana in hand

Description:
This is a simple yet effective combo. All Captain Falcon does is Short Hop over Diddy, throw a Banana down onto Diddy's head, and uses a sweetspotted Knee right before he lands.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: 23%
Can be a kill combo

How to Avoid/Punish:
...
:ganondorf:
Ganondorf
Banana Choke
OP: Ganon Likes Fruit
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz6EMulsx00


Conditions:
Works at any %
Ganon must have a Banana in hand

Description:
This is a rather devastating combo if performed correctly. I'd recommend seeing the OP or at least watching the video, because my explanation wouldn't do it justice. Ganon does the following:
Banana in hand > Gerudo > Glide Toss Downwards > Follow-Up
If you find yourself in this situation, do NOT use a get-up attack out of the trip; it's a GUARANTEED WIZARD PUNCH if you buffer one and he predicts it correctly. Even without that, it is a solid 41% chunk if performed correctly, and leads into a kill move.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: 41%
Finishes with a kill move
Can tech chase you with a Wizard Punch if you get-up attack

How to Avoid/Punish:
As you should already be doing when facing Ganon, simply avoid the Gerudo altogether. It's got a decent amount of lag, and with your Banana game it's hard for him to space it safely. There isn't a way to punish this if it hits, so just don't get grabbed that first time.


HRC Banana Choke Starter
OP: Susa's Post

Conditions:
Diddy must be at a "low" percent
Ganon must have a Banana in hand

Description:
In sort of a fancy Thunderstorm fused with HRC techniques, Ganon can abuse the spike-stopping effects of a well-timed Banana drop to lead us into the Banana Choke. The method for doing this is detailed in Susa's post. Note that this will likely be used to punish a bad roll.

Damage/Pain Caused:
Damage: ???
Leads into a Banana Choke

How to Avoid/Punish:
To do this technique, Ganon must first Short Hop and then Double Jump in front of you while dropping the Banana; in short, he has to use a Short Hop to get above us. If that isn't spelling it out for you enough, it's rather easy to stop a Ganondorf from doing this thanks to his poor speed and jump height, so just keep on the pressure. However, he probably wouldn't be approaching it from that angle; it's more likely he'll use this to punish a bad roll. So, well, don't roll towards him :) Also, if you're at a high percent, you can tech the spike to escape. If you get caught in it, it's a direct lead into the Banana Choke... In other words, pray.​
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-= UNCHECKED CHARACTERS =-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

:metaknight: :wario: :falco: :dedede: :marth: :gw: :pikachu2: :olimar: :popo: :rob: :kirby2: :lucario: :toonlink: :peach: :luigi2: :zelda: :ivysaur: :charizard: :ike: :lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :samus2: :jigglypuff: :link2:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-= C
HARACTERS WITHOUT CHARACTER =-
-=-=-= SPECIFIC BANANA TECHS =-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

:mad088:

-=-=-=-
-= Misc =-
-=-=-=-

That's a lot of yellow.
- Well, yeah, it's called an overdose for a reason :p

Wait, are we trying to actually advance other character's metagames here?
- Lord no. As said above, we are simply gathering what the other character boards have done, NOT trying to advance their Banana game against us. I figure this should be said twice.

How does the General Techs section work?
- (7/20/09) Forgive me, but I have to edit that in once I'm done researching it enough. I posted this in this form to begin conversation that will hopefully lead me in the right direction.

Okay, are we talking about combos or techs here?
- Really sort of both. Basic combos, like a simple Glide Toss > Kill Move, are very well-known and telegraphed, and therefore will not be discussed. If you have a combo that's not well known, has a funny or unusual approach, or that leads into a particularly devastating combo/move, then it will be added.

I don't get it; you've got x character in the "Unchecked Characters" section, yet they're in x General Tech list. What gives?
- The General Tech lists are, well, general, and only tell you that "x character can Dribble" or "x character can use the Single Banana Lock." By "Unchecked," I mean that we have not yet looked for or found any techs specific to that character, techs you wouldn't find anywhere else.

If that's the case, then what's with Sheik's certain "Character Specific Tech"?
- Sheik is an exception; she has Single Banana Lock in her section even though other characters can do it because the explanation behind how she does it is shown in a video and thread that can be viewed for more detail. The other characters that can Single Banana Lock do it in the exact same way Sheik does, but they didn't have videos or anything to help describe it.

Why are the different Character Specific Techs listed in the Updates section as being "techs," even though some obviously aren't?
- That's simply to keep the Updates section neat; by calling them all techs, it's easier to know where there were added.
 

Ingulit

Ing-u-lit
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
1,828
Location
Huntsville/Tuscaloosa, AL
Sorry for the screw-up earlier, but this is the post I tried to make when the boards decided to post it early for me. This is a double post for both space, and to put the thread back at the top so people know it's been edited.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
Location
Rainbow Cruise
Nice, didn't know about the gannondorf stuff, but are we actually going to research what the chars can do ourselves? Or are we just going to get the info from the other boards? Cause I don't want to be evolving the anti-Diddy metagame FOR them >.>
 

Ingulit

Ing-u-lit
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
1,828
Location
Huntsville/Tuscaloosa, AL
Nice, didn't know about the gannondorf stuff, but are we actually going to research what the chars can do ourselves? Or are we just going to get the info from the other boards? Cause I don't want to be evolving the anti-Diddy metagame FOR them >.>
Neither do I xD This is definitely a Gatherer, not a Hunter, exercise. Copypasta and discussion!

EDIT: How should I go about the really general techs? Should I make a listing of what each character can do INSIDE the general tech section with the tech?

EDIT 2: Okay, the way you guys could help this thread the most right now is to check every character in the "Unchecked" category to see if they've found any techs. I'm going through them right now, and Bowser officially has nothing. Just search for "Banana" in the character board and look for non-match-up threads.

EDIT 3: 333 :3
 

blukberry

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
62
Location
montreal,CA
Well the ZSS' already know they can dribble. But instead of a regular GT which is too long, they can do a reverse downwards JCed throw while dashing. It sound complicated but is really just as easy as Diddys Dribble. Not too many use it but its still something to know. Also, I heard Fiction say that he Double Banana Locked someone.

EDIT: Opps this is Bellioes
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
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And on the noting of Player-1, I also want to stress that we are simply gathering what the other character boards have done, NOT trying to advance their Banana game against us. This is not a research thread, but more of a complement to the match-up thread with a focus on Bananas. We just want to know what they know what they can do, not tell them new things
I saved Diddy's metagame from destruction! You can all thank me now...with $50 =)
 

Ingulit

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Well the ZSS' already know they can dribble. But instead of a regular GT which is too long, they can do a reverse downwards JCed throw while dashing. It sound complicated but is really just as easy as Diddys Dribble. Not too many use it but its still something to know. Also, I heard Fiction say that he Double Banana Locked someone.

EDIT: Opps this is Bellioes
That's a good idea; I'll make a list of characters who can Dribble, and put that in the General Techs section. Also noting what they are doing while they Dribble could be of note as well, so I'll definitely mention it. I'll probably need to make one for Double Banana Locks as well, but that'd only be for characters that know how to do it as of now (I'm sure there are quite a few ways to do it for a few characters).

Wow... I keep coming up with ideas of things other characters should try, but then I remember we're trying to stop that from happening :laugh: I really shouldn't play any other character or I'd start looking for all their naner techs too!

I'll update this tomorrow after work... I'm already up wayyyy too late =.=
 

Le_THieN

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Excellent thread idea.

I've been doing a fair amount of experimenting with banana peel micromanagement with a lot of my secondaries and fun characters.

Honestly, I plan sharing everything I know or anything that I have come up with, precisely so I can speed up the anti-meta-game. It's better to develop counter-tactics to these methods now rather than later.

You will all thank me later, when I am dead and gone.
 

SuSa

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There is only one for Snake, and technically it's not really a tech. Considering it acts exactly like Z-dropping.

If we are holding a Banana, and we pull a Grenade. We drop the banana. This is only more useful then Z-dropping because we can B-reverse and change our momentum.

Yah. <_< That's it.
 

Dekar173

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Excellent thread idea.

I've been doing a fair amount of experimenting with banana peel micromanagement with a lot of my secondaries and fun characters.

Honestly, I plan sharing everything I know or anything that I have come up with, precisely so I can speed up the anti-meta-game. It's better to develop counter-tactics to these methods now rather than later.

You will all thank me later, when I am dead and gone.
I agree entirely.

Diddy's only going to get better, and with him being more and more of a force to be reckoned with in tourney, more and more people will be trying their best to utilize the bananas better in order to skew the match in their favor. So long as we know what we need to look out for and how to do so, we can keep ahead of the curve :)
 

SuSa

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Also something every character can do who has a spike that auto-cancels.

Ganon especially because this leads into what you already have listed

If you've ever done HRC, you know what I'm talking about.

Item Drop --> Spike + Regrab Item --> Throw Banana down (you slip) --> Follow up

Ganon's is performed as:

SH
Item drop/second jump
dair (don't fastfall)
press A to pick up banana
Side-B
GT forward+down
follow up

EDIT:
I'll see what I can do about getting a vid later today.

 

Dekar173

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Also something every character can do who has a spike that auto-cancels.

Ganon especially because this leads into what you already have listed

If you've ever done HRC, you know what I'm talking about.

Item Drop --> Spike + Regrab Item --> Throw Banana down (you slip) --> Follow up

Ganon's is performed as:

SH
Item drop/second jump
dair (don't fastfall)
press A to pick up banana
Side-B
GT forward+down
follow up

EDIT:
I'll see what I can do about getting a vid later today.

DI away from the spike (SDI like a madman) and tech, you should be able to escape it. Now the question is, would tech rolling be a safer option for Diddy, or no? It may be so slow he can just tech chase rinse repeat T.T


Also: Mario can dribble. Mario can also cape you upon trip, messing with your rolling/getup options, it makes for a backwards techchase but then again as long as we know :)
 

SuSa

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Starting at 0% to a certain %, if you are grounded you won't be able to tech. 90% sure of this.

Also the tech is when you are on the ground. The quick fix is to jump, then do what you said.
 

Katakiri

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Well, I've been looking into this monkey business (OH GOD) since I live in the ****ing Kongo Jungle (Ohio) and I haven't found much on Sonic that Diddy can't do, although I found a plethora of things he can do better than Diddy though.

Guess I'll start at the most obvious; Sonic's crazy long Glide-Toss. Covers half of FD.


EFFECTIVE things Sonic can do out of his glide-toss are:

D-Smash - His best kill move out of a glide toss IMO since it lasts for a good bit of time and is usually never stales as fast as F-Smash.

F-Smash - This is the one to watch out for, his glide-toss actually will put him in shudder-step distance of where the banana lands. Which means if you get tripped, Sonic gets a free F-Smash. Period.

Dash Attack - This it the most annoying for Diddys. He can dash attack to instantly get the banana back if it misses you.

Spin Dash Combo - If Sonic can trip you, he can quickly follow-up with Spin Dash Combo for a quick 30% damage. (Banana -> Spin Dash(ground) -> Spin Dash(Air) -> Any Aerial)

Homing Attack
- Free Homing Attack......yay....

Example of both F-Smash/Dash Attack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vXKqWFhhVw



As for the few things he can do that Diddy can't:

Spin Dash (both) can run over bananas w/o tripping - As long as you don't have a banana in you hand, Sonic can always attack you even if Sonic's holding a banana himself or if you have a mine field of naners on the stage. Throwing a banana at him while SDing will still trip him. Don't get confused.

Spring Regrabbing - Sonic can throw a banana up in the air and use his Spring Jump to regrab it. He can also use it to grab bananas you throw upward. Kinda useless but good to know.

Using Aerials with a Banana in hand - At the peak of Sonic's Spring Jump, he can use any aerial he wants and not throw the banana. Really only good if Sonic's recovering or needs to get to the ground fast with D-Air.


That's kinda all I have that's worth anything. I do have a vid where I do most of the things mentioned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnZ-zYrVhT4
Kinda went banana crazy. (Dare I say I went....bananas!)

If any of you notice anything in that vid that's of interest to you, please point it out since I don't have a very sharp eye for techs.
 

TreK

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good thread.
The only stuff I know :
Yoshi can cancel his double jump's opening frames to get a HUGE horizontal momentum with an item throw, and he can mix it up with his neutral B to prevent you to abuse shield bouncing. He profits a LOT of bananas since getting kills setup is one of Yoshi's major weaknesses, and at low % you'll eat a chaingrab. Plus he can do empty short hops, do it floored, blah blah blah... he seriously has ****loads of mixups that's scary lol
He has no way to pick the bananas consistently, but when he does you'll have a hard time getting your momentum back =/

Fortunately, we have two bananas :V
 

Skadorski

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I'm not sure I could be wrong but I think Lucario has a single Naner lock....
 

Dekar173

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Starting at 0% to a certain %, if you are grounded you won't be able to tech. 90% sure of this.

Also the tech is when you are on the ground. The quick fix is to jump, then do what you said.
Oh ya, that only happens when Ganon's dair is slightly stale.

As for avoiding Ganon's **** combos- don't get caught in them. Typically, a Ganon will try to catch you with a Gerudo to start up a tech chase and then chain that with whatever follow-ups he'd like, don't get caught by the Gerudo! It's a slow, predictable move.

I'd like for us to talk a bit more about what Snake, MK, and Luigi can do with the bananas. There WILL be more Luigi secondaries (at the very least, this character truly is a beast) meaning we need to have a heads up on what this little ******* can do :)
 

SuSa

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Banana with a side of Pineapple

Conditions:
Snake has a banana in his hand.

Description:
Snake pulls a grenade, the banana falls straight down as if he had Z-dropped it. He can B-reverse the grenade to change his momentum. Making this slightly safer then Z-dropping.

How to avoid/punish:
Don't fall for his shenanigans.

EDIT:

Ike can DACIT -- > Fsmash

This thread may help with DACIT:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212159
 

Ingulit

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I've been doing a fair amount of experimenting with banana peel micromanagement with a lot of my secondaries and fun characters.

Honestly, I plan sharing everything I know or anything that I have come up with, precisely so I can speed up the anti-meta-game. It's better to develop counter-tactics to these methods now rather than later.

You will all thank me later, when I am dead and gone.
In all honestly, I DO share this opinion, if only out of curiosity for what other characters can do with our Bananas. However, out of the desire to not harm Diddy's metagame for this community, I'm trying to resist x)

There is only one for Snake, and technically it's not really a tech. Considering it acts exactly like Z-dropping.

If we are holding a Banana, and we pull a Grenade. We drop the banana. This is only more useful then Z-dropping because we can B-reverse and change our momentum.
That's actually pretty significant; I mean, it's a Wavebounced Z-Drop to Grenade... Pretty handy for warding off approaching Diddys >.> I'll definitely add it.

Also something every character can do who has a spike that auto-cancels.

Ganon especially because this leads into what you already have listed

If you've ever done HRC, you know what I'm talking about.

Item Drop --> Spike + Regrab Item --> Throw Banana down (you slip) --> Follow up

Ganon's is performed as:

SH
Item drop/second jump
dair (don't fastfall)
press A to pick up banana
Side-B
GT forward+down
follow up


...Starting at 0% to a certain %, if you are grounded you won't be able to tech. 90% sure of this.
Also: Mario can dribble. Mario can also cape you upon trip, messing with your rolling/getup options, it makes for a backwards techchase but then again as long as we know :)
Thanks for confirming Mario can Dribble; I'll add him to the list. As for the Cape thing, it's not really a tech or anything, but that is a good tidbit of info to remember ;P

Well, I've been looking into this monkey business (OH GOD) since I live in the ****ing Kongo Jungle (Ohio) and I haven't found much on Sonic that Diddy can't do, although I found a plethora of things he can do better than Diddy though.

Guess I'll start at the most obvious; Sonic's crazy long Glide-Toss. Covers half of FD.


EFFECTIVE things Sonic can do out of his glide-toss are:

D-Smash - His best kill move out of a glide toss IMO since it lasts for a good bit of time and is usually never stales as fast as F-Smash.

F-Smash - This is the one to watch out for, his glide-toss actually will put him in shudder-step distance of where the banana lands. Which means if you get tripped, Sonic gets a free F-Smash. Period.

Dash Attack - This it the most annoying for Diddys. He can dash attack to instantly get the banana back if it misses you.

Spin Dash Combo - If Sonic can trip you, he can quickly follow-up with Spin Dash Combo for a quick 30% damage. (Banana -> Spin Dash(ground) -> Spin Dash(Air) -> Any Aerial)


Homing Attack
- Free Homing Attack......yay....

Example of both F-Smash/Dash Attack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vXKqWFhhVw



As for the few things he can do that Diddy can't:

Spin Dash (both) can run over bananas w/o tripping - As long as you don't have a banana in you hand, Sonic can always attack you even if Sonic's holding a banana himself or if you have a mine field of naners on the stage. Throwing a banana at him while SDing will still trip him. Don't get confused.

Spring Regrabbing - Sonic can throw a banana up in the air and use his Spring Jump to regrab it. He can also use it to grab bananas you throw upward. Kinda useless but good to know.

Using Aerials with a Banana in hand - At the peak of Sonic's Spring Jump, he can use any aerial he wants and not throw the banana. Really only good if Sonic's recovering or needs to get to the ground fast with D-Air.


That's kinda all I have that's worth anything. I do have a vid where I do most of the things mentioned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnZ-zYrVhT4
Kinda went banana crazy. (Dare I say I went....bananas!)

If any of you notice anything in that vid that's of interest to you, please point it out since I don't have a very sharp eye for techs.
You. ROCK. Thank you VERY much for this! If we could have one of these posts for each character, we'd be set!

I'm working on editing the OP now.

EDIT: All these posts are great, guys. Keep it coming!
 

iDeo

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good thread.
The only stuff I know :
Yoshi can cancel his double jump's opening frames to get a HUGE horizontal momentum with an item throw, and he can mix it up with his neutral B to prevent you to abuse shield bouncing. He profits a LOT of bananas since getting kills setup is one of Yoshi's major weaknesses, and at low % you'll eat a chaingrab. Plus he can do empty short hops, do it floored, blah blah blah... he seriously has ****loads of mixups that's scary lol
He has no way to pick the bananas consistently, but when he does you'll have a hard time getting your momentum back =/

Fortunately, we have two bananas :V

I should kno this from loads of exp., LOL. Bigman40 does it to me quite a bit when he gets a chance. Of course u can just monkey flip over it if ur at mid-distance from Yoshi.
 

SuSa

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I'm actually quite certain Bowser can use Klaw Hopping to avoid grounded bananas. Using this, he can hover over his own banana or one of yours.

Also Banana Bomber.

Z-drop Banana, land, down-B. Props you up into it and you get slammed. Does a great 28%, is guarenteed, and WILL KO YOU at around 100-110% <_<

Zamus can:

Stun Gun
Glide Toss Banana Forward
Dsmash
Dsmash/Followup

It does 31% or more
 

Ingulit

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I'm actually quite certain Bowser can use Klaw Hopping to avoid grounded bananas. Using this, he can hover over his own banana or one of yours.

Also Banana Bomber.

Z-drop Banana, land, down-B. Props you up into it and you get slammed. Does a great 28%, is guarenteed, and WILL KO YOU at around 100-110% <_<

Zamus can:

Stun Gun
Glide Toss Banana Forward
Dsmash
Dsmash/Followup

It does 31% or more
It's hard to keep up with you :laugh: This is all great stuff, and a lot of the OP has your name as the credit for the different techs (solely because I never found them anywhere else).

I'm working as fast as I can. I'm thinking of making a Combos section, but I'm having trouble discerning "Combos" from "Techs" anymore :ohwell:

And something that should be said: if you guys know a tech another character can do and know of an OP for it, please post a link so that credit can be properly distributed and so we can navigate to the original discussions.
 

SuSa

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So it turns out Ganon may have an 0-death on you guys. I know it at least works if you so much as hesitate doing a getup attack. 80% sure rolls will get you ****ed over. If you do a getup attack, we can try to set this up then get our nice little guaranteed warlock punch in.

Mindgames anyone? (Choose 0-death or choose warlock punch so far)

Needs waaaaaaay more testing though, so don't get scared. But just thought I'd let you know so you guys can either disprove it, or try and find a way around it.

Also most "combos" are more important then the "techs", so if I were you (besides obvious "glide toss --> This") I'd list the combos. Because 31% or more from Zamus is... a lot. <_<


EDIT:

Ganon can dribble, it's not effective at all.

EDIT:
It seems you have the Bowser Bomber wrong.

The banana trips you, stunning you enough to let us down-B. AFAIK the down-B prop that Bowser has leads into the down-B slap and it is guarenteed. If not, then... mash airdodge <_,

 

Ingulit

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Also most "combos" are more important then the "techs", so if I were you (besides obvious "glide toss --> This") I'd list the combos. Because 31% or more from Zamus is... a lot. <_<

Ganon can dribble, it's not effective at all.

EDIT:
It seems you have the Bowser Bomber wrong.

The banana trips you, stunning you enough to let us down-B. AFAIK the down-B prop that Bowser has leads into the down-B slap and it is guarenteed. If not, then... mash airdodge <_,

Thank you for the clarification, I really wasn't that sure what you'd meant with the Banana Bomber. And yes, combos are definitely more useful to know (I was hesitating because I didn't want to include every single Glide Toss > Profit combo in the game, all of which are obvious and easily telegraphed). I'll fix the Banana Bomber and then I'm done for the night, but the Yoshi stuff and your Zamus combo are definitely going in. This will just take a lot of editing xD
 

SuSa

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Well most everyone has a Glide Toss/DACIT/JCT --> Profit, and it's almost all OBVIOUS.

What I've noticed is you guys are less aware of things that super-**** you.

The Bowser Bomb isn't widely known, and he usually has better options then it. I just felt it was worth posting that ONE that is "do something --> 1 move of profit" simply because its a vertical KO move, and if you aren't prepared... your going to die an early death.

 

Ingulit

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Well most everyone has a Glide Toss/DACIT/JCT --> Profit, and it's almost all OBVIOUS.

What I've noticed is you guys are less aware of things that super-**** you.

The Bowser Bomb isn't widely known, and he usually has better options then it. I just felt it was worth posting that ONE that is "do something --> 1 move of profit" simply because its a vertical KO move, and if you aren't prepared... your going to die an early death.

I think I worded it wrong; Glide Toss, DACIT, and JCT to Attack/Kill move are, as you said, ubiquitous, and therefore aren't being covered simply because those kind of combos are "obvious" (and, to be honest, I just don't have enough time to list all of them). We've generally mastered Glide Toss/DACIT/JCT lengths and have learned to predict and avoid those combos by noticing the opponent is at the appropriate spacing. In fact, it seems most Diddy mains only care about the Glide Toss/DACIT/JCT > Single Move combos because they think that's all the other mains know about! What I'm trying to do with this thread is show everyone the things they can do with Bananas that aren't what we'd expect, or that are particularly devastating when the oppoenet turns our Bananas against us. The Banana Bomber is a really good example of this because it's a Banana combo with an approach and method that we normally wouldn't look out for. By discussing it here, we can try to manage a way to get around it should the opponent know how to use it.
 

SuSa

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Add "Double drops" into that.

AFAIK most every character can z-drop > airdodge cancel throw > limited follow ups.

Snake can z-drop > ACT > grab > dthrow. If you roll back, you trip on the banana and take another 21% (max) from ftilt. This does a nice 41% if you roll into the banana.

To be honest I don't think us Snake's know about this. Partly because I just found it out for myself testing double item drops. XD

EDIT:
It's harder to perform on your back, it puts us at more risk. So if you think we'll be doing this. Just turn around. -_- The banana will miss you.

EDIT:

some double item drops aren't really worth the risk/damage dealt. Peach can z-drop > ACT > Grab :/ but nothing else. Snake at least has DACUS/dash attack and other things.
 

Ingulit

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Add "Double drops" into that.

AFAIK most every character can z-drop > airdodge cancel throw > limited follow ups.

Snake can z-drop > ACT > grab > dthrow. If you roll back, you trip on the banana and take another 21% (max) from ftilt. This does a nice 41% if you roll into the banana.

To be honest I don't think us Snake's know about this. Partly because I just found it out for myself testing double item drops. XD

EDIT:
It's harder to perform on your back, it puts us at more risk. So if you think we'll be doing this. Just turn around. -_- The banana will miss you.
Ah, that's actually a good example of what I'm talking about. Double Drops may indeed be common to most characters, but that particular Snake use continues to use the Banana in a creative way (as oppose to being a generic Double Drop > Grab combo). We can have some Glide Toss/etc combos, that's no doubt, but I want to avoid Glide Toss > F-Smash when I can.

I want to avoid this:
"What else would you do after a Glide Toss", the poor Diddy main thought. "Wait, he didn't use a kill move! Holy crap! I didn't know this character could keep using the Banana like that! AHH! I'm being comboed! O NOES HALP!")

EDIT: I'm done editing the OP for the evening... I'll get back to it tomorrow after work. There's lots to update :psycho:
 

SuSa

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Snake can dribble going backwards, the timing on it is rather strict however because he has a "I don't want to budge an inch" glide toss, then one that goes about as far as Diddy's....

Also I need to test:

You slip on Banana
Snake grabs and dthrows.
You roll back onto banana
He grabs and dthrows
Will your forward roll go OVER the banana, or will you slip yet again?

This would force you into a HORRIBLE position because it's "slip and get ***** more" or "choose a predictable forward roll/getup attack/getup that he knows I will do one of and get punished.

Which turns into a "your getting punished no matter what you do" sort of thing. :x

EDIT:

OH GOODY. I was SORT of correct.... We have to space it properly, which seems to involve a pivot grab
 

Bellioes

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Lucario can dribble too. He can also rising Fair pickup like us out of a GT back dthrow.

EDIT: Also, Wario can double banana lock too. It just requires specific timing since if he messes up, he'll do his super long GT or even not move at all. The only proof I have is Fiction saying he DBLed a Diddy a while back when I mained Wario.
 

chimpact

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Snake is too slow to get a Z drop on diddy. We can just fair him when he gets near us or bair if he's behind us.

And I doubt diddy kong is trapped for 32 frames after a trip cause it takes 32 frames for the first hit of bowser's aerial down b to connect.
 

Player-1

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Lucario can dribble too. He can also rising Fair pickup like us out of a GT back dthrow.

EDIT: Also, Wario can double banana lock too. It just requires specific timing since if he messes up, he'll do his super long GT or even not move at all. The only proof I have is Fiction saying he DBLed a Diddy a while back when I mained Wario.
I'm pretty sure every character can do a rising aerial and pick up an item.
 
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