The Nameless Wanderer
Smash Lord
Bowser has one of the best Defensive games in the entire game. Since only Ivysaur has a projectile. Bowser can put this monstourous defense to use. He is also surprisingly fast,boasting range and power as well.
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Pokemon Trainer vs Bowser
- Thread starter The Nameless Wanderer
- Start date
Bowser has one of the best Defensive games in the entire game. Since only Ivysaur has a projectile. Bowser can put this monstourous defense to use. He is also surprisingly fast,boasting range and power as well.
B!squick
Smash Master
Don't use Ivysaur. He may have range and power and might seem like a good idea, but Bowser has an infinite grab release on him. So if you do use Ivysaur, you had better space the **** out of your attacks.
I'm not sure about the other two. I know Charizard would offer the coolest battle and Squirtle would have the best chance at winning. He seems to have an aerial mobility on par with Wario, so you shouldn't have too much trouble not getting grabbed.
Other than grabs, watch out for Bowser's UpB OoS and the Klaw.
I'm not sure about the other two. I know Charizard would offer the coolest battle and Squirtle would have the best chance at winning. He seems to have an aerial mobility on par with Wario, so you shouldn't have too much trouble not getting grabbed.
Other than grabs, watch out for Bowser's UpB OoS and the Klaw.
Ixisnaugus
Smash Journeyman
I think Charizard does pretty well against Bowser, ironically. Squirtle may be the best choice but he doesn't outright destroy Bowser and i'm pretty sure can be chaingrabbed.
I'm not too knowledgeable on this matchup as it's been too long since I've played a competent PT player. The ratio does not go beyond 55:45 in PT's favor though.
I'm not too knowledgeable on this matchup as it's been too long since I've played a competent PT player. The ratio does not go beyond 55:45 in PT's favor though.
The Nameless Wanderer
Smash Lord
It was bait to draw you outIn our thread you claim Bowser to be slow and here you say he's surprisingly fast
(I'd go with neither)
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anax4aero
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2009
- Messages
- 39
Good tip on Ivysaur, I actually thought ivysaur would do best in this match before I knew about the grab-release.
Given that, Charizard vs. Bowser is the most epic you can get. Squirtle is probably good, but I'm sure a few hits from Bowser would send squirtle flying, so I'd go for Zard. With his great grab range, tilts and OoS attacks, he can space and counter Bowser quite well, he can withstand Bowser's power, and Bowser's size means RS is likely do do insane damage if it hits.
I don't know what the Bowsers have to say about Zard though. For me this is a rare match-up.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Charizard does the best. Bowser's great at defense, and that coupled with Bowser's immense weight can lead to Squirtle getting fatigued, making Bowser even harder to kill. That said, Squirtle's not bad against Bowser, but Charizard just doesn't have as much trouble killing Bowser as Squirtle does. Plus Bowser can KO Squirtle much easier than Squirtle can KO Bowser.
Squirtle is the best IMO, but then again my charizard kinda sucks so I might be wrong.
Squirtle is just too fast and maneuverable. Bowser is a huge target for everything, and can get combod/juggled pretty badly. As long as squirtle takes care to avoid shieldgrabs (very important, since bowser has some nasty grab release stuff on squirtle), things should go great. Bowser will have a tough time hitting you, and screw fatigue/killing, you can rack up damage like crazy once you get bowser in the air or offstage, just do that until he'll die from a fatigued dthrow or fair. Maybe gimp with water gun... Is there FIHL on bowser's upB?
Squirtle is just too fast and maneuverable. Bowser is a huge target for everything, and can get combod/juggled pretty badly. As long as squirtle takes care to avoid shieldgrabs (very important, since bowser has some nasty grab release stuff on squirtle), things should go great. Bowser will have a tough time hitting you, and screw fatigue/killing, you can rack up damage like crazy once you get bowser in the air or offstage, just do that until he'll die from a fatigued dthrow or fair. Maybe gimp with water gun... Is there FIHL on bowser's upB?
I used to be a bowser main, and i know that if he lands a good attack on squirtle, he's dead. but since bowser doesn't have a good air game, and squirtle is best in the air, you should keep both of you in the air. Charizard's flamethrower has higher priority than bowsers fire breath, and he's faster then bowser, he's also a good choice.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Yep. Catch Squirtle near the beginning of your Flame Breath, and he'll take some damage. Since he's a small character, though, I don't think the reduced knockback adds that much damage on. I can't completely remember how easily my Squirtle got stuck in a Bowser's breath in-tourney.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
OK, as a Charizard expert (which translates to be "I know a lot about Charizard but have to ask about everyone else"), I have several things to mention before evaluating.
1: Charizard isn't Bowser:
When I was looking at the Bowser match up boards, I noticed that facing Charizard was a 50:50. Their claim is that Charizard is essentially a more agile and lighter Bowser. While this seems apparent, with a game primarily based off grabs and their B move pretty similar (I actually did tests, Bowser's fire breath goes farther, but Charizard's flamethower lasts longer), this isn't true. Their standard attacks are of course the death nail to the idea that they are clones in a sense of the Links (Link and Toon Link are the only Characters in Brawl with a similar standard moveset). However, this doesn't mean that Charizard is semi-cloned (or Luigified, to give an obvious example). It just takes several B moves to prove so. They already have one. So let's look at the other three:
While Both are partially reliant on their side B, Bowser's is a grab move that can be used as a suicide KO. In Contrast, Charizard doubles as a KO move and a damage racking move with proper placement.
Charizard's up B is vertical. Bowser's is horizontal.
Down-B, nuff said.
Essentially, sans strategy bases, pretty much all similarities are superficial
2: Both are throw oriented:
Pretty the only non-superficial thing they have in common is that they are pretty grab oriented. What this means is that when facing each other, their main strategy is possibly their riskiest, since the other one can do around the same thing. This means other strategies are a necessity. Charizard being reasonably flexible, can do that. Not sure about Bowser though.
IMO, Charizard has an advantage over bowser, but considering similar strategies, it can be deemed Even (55:45 Charizard adv). 60:40 tops.
1: Charizard isn't Bowser:
When I was looking at the Bowser match up boards, I noticed that facing Charizard was a 50:50. Their claim is that Charizard is essentially a more agile and lighter Bowser. While this seems apparent, with a game primarily based off grabs and their B move pretty similar (I actually did tests, Bowser's fire breath goes farther, but Charizard's flamethower lasts longer), this isn't true. Their standard attacks are of course the death nail to the idea that they are clones in a sense of the Links (Link and Toon Link are the only Characters in Brawl with a similar standard moveset). However, this doesn't mean that Charizard is semi-cloned (or Luigified, to give an obvious example). It just takes several B moves to prove so. They already have one. So let's look at the other three:
While Both are partially reliant on their side B, Bowser's is a grab move that can be used as a suicide KO. In Contrast, Charizard doubles as a KO move and a damage racking move with proper placement.
Charizard's up B is vertical. Bowser's is horizontal.
Down-B, nuff said.
Essentially, sans strategy bases, pretty much all similarities are superficial
2: Both are throw oriented:
Pretty the only non-superficial thing they have in common is that they are pretty grab oriented. What this means is that when facing each other, their main strategy is possibly their riskiest, since the other one can do around the same thing. This means other strategies are a necessity. Charizard being reasonably flexible, can do that. Not sure about Bowser though.
IMO, Charizard has an advantage over bowser, but considering similar strategies, it can be deemed Even (55:45 Charizard adv). 60:40 tops.
MaTA
Smash Ace
im a charizard expert too
T-block
B2B TST
I don't think it takes a "Charizard expert" to see that they're not the same character and that their moves are different =P
Charizard does the best in my opinion...Squirtle has a hard time with his tilts.
Charizard does the best in my opinion...Squirtle has a hard time with his tilts.
Riddle
Smash Lord
Don't get grabbed. Squirtle and Charizard can be chaingrabbed with both grab releases, and ivysaur can be infinite grabbed. Squirtle is probably the best option as he can easily avoid being hit with his aerial mobility. Get Bowser in the air as much as you can, and keep him there. I'd say Squirtle 60-40, Ivysaur 40-60, and Charizard 55-45.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
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I agree with this guy^
TheREALShadowChaos
Smash Journeyman
Wario > Squirtle when it comes to Arial mobility. They are not on par.
Magik0722
Smash Champion
quit nitpicking, his point stands
TheREALShadowChaos
Smash Journeyman
Except that Squirtle is much easier to grab.
Edit: Also Bowser > Squirtle in horizontal air speed. =P
Miles.
Smash Champion
I think I can 3 stock Charizard92.
wtf why did you write this whole long post to essential say "charizard isn't bowser"
w t f
IThinkAboutIvysaur
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
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- 102
To prove that he's a Charizard expert lol.
But no jokes that thing about the two Flamethrowers is new to me. I always assumed that they were the same. Won't stop me from calling Bowsers Flamethrower Flamethrower though.
But no jokes that thing about the two Flamethrowers is new to me. I always assumed that they were the same. Won't stop me from calling Bowsers Flamethrower Flamethrower though.
anax4aero
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2009
- Messages
- 39
I really don't think Squirtle's aerial game has much of an effect when a couple of hits from Bowser can be deadly, while complete aerial **** from squirtle probably takes a long time to finish off Bowser.
Also, it is much easier for Charizard to grab Bowser than for Bowser to grab Charizard. Better overall range and versatility, imo, means Charizard > Bowser, probably 60:40.
Also, it is much easier for Charizard to grab Bowser than for Bowser to grab Charizard. Better overall range and versatility, imo, means Charizard > Bowser, probably 60:40.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
Probably, I don't exactly think I'm that great ( I may be among the best in my area, but that isn't saying much)
1: I barely even know myself, I may have not been thinking straight when I was writing
2: I thought it takes a long post to nail that Idea in the coffin. Apparently, some people do think they are the same.
Miles.
Smash Champion
Bowser isnt Squirtle.
IThinkAboutIvysaur
Smash Apprentice
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- Jul 26, 2009
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- 102
MaTA
Smash Ace
long post are annoying to read :-/
Miles.
Smash Champion
Squirtle spits.
Squirte spits mad game to all the honeys.
Bowser is to drunk to talk. So he just grunts.
I bet IThinkAboutIvysaur is Charizard92's alternate account.
ON TOPIC: So basically if bowser grabs you, you get *****. Don't get grabbed. The question is, how good is each character at not getting grabbed against bowser? (All of this is theory btw, haven't had human experience in PT vs Bowser)
Squirtle can also be cg-***** (idk if it's air or ground) but can own bowser in the air, and his maneuverability aids in avoiding grabs. I would think that the bowser would be shieldcamping a lot to get these grabs, so use your grab tricksies and uthrow him to ensue the ****. Fatigue will be a serious problem though, as well as squirtle's vulnerability to shieldgrabs.
Ivysaur can be infinited, so unless you are really confident with your spacing, don't do it. Ivysaur is good with spacing though, so if you play your cards right boswer should have a very tough time getting that grab.
Charizard gets chaingrabbed by a ground release, which is probably worse because the bowser won't have to worry about stopping pummels early. However, charizard has a larger grab range and a 'better' flamethrower (in terms of priority) to maintain preferred spacing.
I'd CP someplace like BF with lots of platforms for safety/running like a pansy.
ON TOPIC: So basically if bowser grabs you, you get *****. Don't get grabbed. The question is, how good is each character at not getting grabbed against bowser? (All of this is theory btw, haven't had human experience in PT vs Bowser)
Squirtle can also be cg-***** (idk if it's air or ground) but can own bowser in the air, and his maneuverability aids in avoiding grabs. I would think that the bowser would be shieldcamping a lot to get these grabs, so use your grab tricksies and uthrow him to ensue the ****. Fatigue will be a serious problem though, as well as squirtle's vulnerability to shieldgrabs.
Ivysaur can be infinited, so unless you are really confident with your spacing, don't do it. Ivysaur is good with spacing though, so if you play your cards right boswer should have a very tough time getting that grab.
Charizard gets chaingrabbed by a ground release, which is probably worse because the bowser won't have to worry about stopping pummels early. However, charizard has a larger grab range and a 'better' flamethrower (in terms of priority) to maintain preferred spacing.
I'd CP someplace like BF with lots of platforms for safety/running like a pansy.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
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Uhh, no
Anyway, getting grabbed is problematic, so spacing is of priority with PT.
However, PT has quite some ability to space
bowser can't force ground releases (in fact, he has one of the slowest pummels in the game) so he does not actually "infinite" ivysaur.
all three get kinda ***** if you get grabbed regardless but isn't that the case for bowser vs everyone that isn't dk?
all three get kinda ***** if you get grabbed regardless but isn't that the case for bowser vs everyone that isn't dk?
Just out of curiousity any reason DK doesn't suffer from this?
Oh and I think Luigi would also be fine.
T-block
B2B TST
because dk has 20 frames to bowser's 10, as opposed to everyone else's 30
Ok thanks.
dre_89_
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2009
- Messages
- 73
I think people have got to remember it's Bowser vs. PT in general, not Bowser vs. each of his pokemon. What I mean is people say things like Squirtle can own him in the air, but can't KO him, well that shouldn't really affect the matchup because Squirtle doesn't have to be the one who KOs him, so it's not as if that is a real problem in the matchup.
Sorry if that didn't make sense.
And Charizard92, no offence but knowing Zard's moveset does not make you an expert, any PT noob would know that stuff, and if you could get 3 stocked by another PT you shouldn't really be giving advice, placing well in huge tournies makes you an expert.
Sorry if that didn't make sense.
And Charizard92, no offence but knowing Zard's moveset does not make you an expert, any PT noob would know that stuff, and if you could get 3 stocked by another PT you shouldn't really be giving advice, placing well in huge tournies makes you an expert.
Yeah I get what you're saying but Squirtle may have problems even getting a chance to switch in this match. Knocking out Bowser is a problem for any character and the only one of the three that do decently is Zard.
Yeah probably (although maybe he could get to you and get a grab before you switch). But Dthrow is the only practical option to get him far enough away unless your fair is actually fresh for some reason. Dair might too I guess but it can be a bit hard considering Bowser's weight.
Even if you switch to Ivy your KO options are a bit limited. Fsmash will work and Uair. And Usmash of course. Bthrow I don't think is powerful enough until really high percentages.
Anyways all I'm trying to say is that Bowser's weight is going to be an issue no matter who you are. He's the heaviest character in the game and with good DI he's going to live a long time against any of your pokemon. On the bright side he lacks any really quick aerials or any momentum cancelling moves so its not as bad as it could be.
Even if you switch to Ivy your KO options are a bit limited. Fsmash will work and Uair. And Usmash of course. Bthrow I don't think is powerful enough until really high percentages.
Anyways all I'm trying to say is that Bowser's weight is going to be an issue no matter who you are. He's the heaviest character in the game and with good DI he's going to live a long time against any of your pokemon. On the bright side he lacks any really quick aerials or any momentum cancelling moves so its not as bad as it could be.