Zero Suit Matchup Discussion - The Unproven - Pokemon Trainer

Zero · Jul 28, 2009

TheZeroSuit said:
Introduction

It has generally been concluded that Ørion's thread and Snakeee's thread should be combined into a more comprehensive and complete guide. This will also give us a chance to go over any information that is outdated or lacking and fill in the gaps.

Re-introduction

Much time has passed since the release of Brawl to the complete Smashboards community, and much of the initial matchup discussion has been completed in many of the character boards. Due to the unusually small number of contributors to our board, our matchup discussions often linger and stagnate for many weeks, and as a consequence, we have only completed 12 complete discussions.

This thread's purpose is to begin matchup discussion on character's who as of the Tier List v3, exist underneath position 21. The characters to be discussed are:

:shiek:

Current Discussion: Pokemon Trainer

This triple team brings a smorgasbord of options to the battletable. Is it enough to defeat our strong fundamentals?

Ratio Chart:

Large Advantage (70+):

Advantage (60-65):

Sonic

Even (45-55):

Disadvantage (35-40):

Large Disadvantage (30-):

After all discussion has been concluded, the information will be compiled into one matchup thread.

Format:

Strengths:

Weaknesses:

Final Verdict:

Matchup Advice:

Exploiting Strengths:
Minimizing Weaknesses:
Suitpiece Strategy:
Approach Alterations:
In the Air:
Attacks to Look for:
- xxxx
  Description:
  How to Counter/Avoid:
  DI: 0°
  SDI: 0°
How to Edgeguard:
How to Recover:
Special Information:

Counterpick Advice:

Stages to Counter-pick:
Stages to Avoid:

<character> Contributors:

xxxx

<character>'s Thread

Tien2500 · Jul 28, 2009

Personally I'd like to do PT since I second him. But I guess Sheik would be most logical to start with since its a match several people think is hard for ZSS.

ThreeSided · Jul 28, 2009

Sheik is hard, yes, but it really all comes down to playing carefully with her. Don't underestimate her range, watch for needles, and escape from Ftilt lock. It's hard, but the concept behind beating her is fairly simple in thought, so it's not as much a learning issue as a practicing one.

My friend mains Zelda, and he always beats me. It's supposed to be in our favor, I believe. I just can't seem to beat him, though. But much like Tien2500, this would be a personal choice. I believe we would most benefit from discussing Lucas, due to his odd hitboxes/movement, we could all probably use some more understanding about this not-so-common match up. A quick one would be sonic, since he's not incredibly hard, unless you don't know how to deal with him, so that could probably be figured out and decided fast.

Zero · Jul 28, 2009

It shouldn't take a week to do the Sonic matchup, I'll give the Sonic Boards a yell.

Sonic

The fastest hedgehog on Earth, at a first glance he appears to completely shut down our spacing game, but can he step it up on the playing field?

Strengths:

Outprioritise, impede and outrange Sonic on the ground.
More reliable, safer kill moves.
Advantageous ground game.
Dominate Sonic in the air.
Cannot effectively hinder our recovery.

Weaknesses:

Susceptible to Sonic's strong grab game.
Arguably weaker armour piece game.
We're too slow.
Difficult to edgeguard effectively.

Final Verdict: 60:40 ZSS

Matchup Advice:

Exploiting Strengths: Put Sonic in the air, this is your area, and so abuse it with all of your strength. Your jab does negate many of Sonic's approaches, so simply holding A and reacting to it is an effective strategy. Use Dtilt when Sonic is on the ground, and Utilt if Sonic whiffs a grab, or attempts to approach you from the air. Uair is the most effective anti-air move you have, and combined with your other options, shuts down Sonic's air game. Sonic's killing moves are rather telegraphed and so space well and pay attention to what Sonic is doing.
Minimizing Weaknesses: A useful Sonic approach is SH RAR Bair: crouching will leave you impervious and able to punish with a rising Uair. Sonic's main advantage is sheer intimidation due to his speed, however if you FOCUS, the opportunities become apparent. Side B and Paralyser are both telegraphed and laggy and Sonic's speed can take advantage of both, so minimise use of these. Sonic will rarely be hit by a Dsmash, but as the ending lag is negligible, it isn't as dangerous as a grounded side B or paralyser.
Suitpiece Strategy: Sonic has an above average armour piece game, which highlights the need to be careful with them. As always, use them at your discretion, but as Sonic is fast, he can dash towards you at the start of the game in order to attempt to capitalise on the armour pieces. If you throw one directly at him at the start of the match, he either shields, putting him on the defensive and allowing you time to manage your pieces, or drops down/spotdodges, which eliminates one piece to manage. The armour piece game against Sonic is all about management. Just try to not let him get them, as he is more potent with them than many other characters.
Approach Alterations: Advancing SH Side B isn't very effective in this matchup. Retreating Side B can punish a Sonic who commits to using Bair/Uair too early. Otherwise, no major alterations.
In the Air: Your combined options overwhelm Sonic in the air, as long as you remain in control. Sonic's aerial game isn't so shabby and he can have some aerial spotlight. His upB can escape many combos, however it leaves him high above you and he either floats down and relies on timing an airdodge to avoid an aerial string, or uses Dair to return to the floor, which can be met with Uair and, when well spaced, will hit Sonic out. Otherwise, it will clash. Your aerial kill moves are more reliable than his, and your Nair outspaces anything Sonic has. So basically, play your standard aerial game with Sonic's upB in mind.
Attacks to Look for:
- Fair
  Description: Sonic spins without his ball form, executing many aerial pirouettes.
  How to Counter/Avoid: SDI down and uair if you ever get hit with it. It'll be more advantageous to get hit with it since it's probably guaranteed uair.
  DI: if you fail to SDI, I guess either up or down, depending on your judgement. Just SDI it, it's really not hard.
  SDI: any direction, down is much better.
  
  Kinzer said:
  
  Are you talknig about SDIing Sonic's Fair or Zero Suit's Fair?
  
  I'm gonig to assume you're talking about Sonics, and if you are you have the right idea but the wrong way to get to the result.
  
  Well, at least with descending Fair, which is where it should be used anyway, I'm certainly not going to try to attack you head on with Fair which doesn't have that much range until the end. Again I don't theorycraft/worry about what bad players do, good Sonic's would be attacking you with Bair.
  
  If you really want to DI Sonic's Fair, it depends where you are. If you're in front of him and/or haven't been hit yet, you want to DI away. This is also assuming that he just started it up, not almost ending, in which case hope you don't get hit by the last part.
  
  If you're caught in the middle, DI towards his back.
  
  If Sonic's Rising with his Fairs and you're above him, I hope you have Godly SDI to back up Ding down, otherwise you're going to eat it. If you're below him when he's doing Rising Fairs feel free to DI down, though I don't know how often this will happen, my guess is not very likely.
  
  Descending Fairs? Oh yeah as I already said before, they're bad, since they'll put Sonic in a fish-like state if he touches ground, but again nobody who is any good will leave them open oh heavens no.
  
  Click to expand...
- Fsmash
  Description: Sonic winds up all of the strength in his stick arms and throws his hand at you with all his might.
  How to Counter/Avoid: It is telegraphed if you're keeping your eyes on the Sonic. Must be done from either a standing, walking position or a pivot. Maintain good spacing and keep your eye on the ball, so to speak.
  DI: 0° (straight up)
  SDI: -
- Dsmash
  Description: Sonic curls up and sweeps the ground in ball form.
  How to Counter/Avoid: Don't get hit.
  DI: 0°
  SDI: -
- Bair
  Description: Probably Sonic's main kill move. A reverse kick, much alike our own, except without the steely legs of justice
  How to Counter/Avoid: Stay in front of Sonic at higher percentages. Not too dangerous since your OoS options are faster than this, negating its use as a GTFO move, if it were ever used for that.
  DI: 0°
  SDI: -
- Uair
  Description: Sonic traps you with a whirlwind spin of his legs and brings you in for a scissor finish. A vertical killer.
  How to Counter/Avoid: Don't be above Sonic. It's an often used move out of spring and can get a surprise KO. Be careful if you are ever above Sonic, try to return to the ground. As per normal.
  DI: 90°/270° (straight right or left)
  SDI: -
How to Edgeguard: Sonic is not game for an easy edgeguard, he has many, if not more, recovery tools than us. However, Sonic is always facing the stage as he is returning, which removes the possibility for surprise bairs. If he is recovering high, your best bet is to utilise fair walls just underneath him, or if you are high enough, uair. There are not many options to edgeguard a low recovering Sonic, however if you read the distance of his upB and decide whether or not he is going to attach to the ledge, you can meet him with an aerial of your choice. Or a dsmash as he comes up.
How to Recover: Sonic has a few options to edgeguard you if you attempt to recover low. If you are too slow, the Sonic can run off the stage and bair stagespike you before you repel your tether. If you still have your downB, a nifty trick to mix up your recovery is to downB immediately after tethering, giving you invincibility frames and putting you safely onto the stage. Sonic can also attempt to spring gimp a dangling ZSS, and can also charge into an offstage fair, however this is SDIable so it is not particularly dangerous. Nevertheless, a high recovery is essential against Sonic. Although do be careful, as Sonic's bair is an effective kill move near the sides of the stage, so time your airdodges well. It's a bit slower than our own, and so if you're paying attention, then you should be able to airdodge on reaction.
Special Information: Sonic upB = ZSS dB regarding combo breaking. It is, however, a little more punishable as it gives you more time to react to whatever option the Sonic commits to. You have no grab shenanigans on Sonic, so often there is a better option than to grab. It is useful, as always, to put them in the air with Fthrow/Dthrow, so it is an effective mixup. Sonic has an excellent momentum cancel, and so you want to put him near the sides of the stage before you attempt your kill moves.

Counterpick Advice: Sonic negates his lack of a projectile with his demon speeding, so FD is not as useful as it normally would be. Otherwise, the stages remain as normal to a ZSS matchup.

Stages to Counter-pick:
- Battlefield
- Brinstar
- Rainbow Cruise
Stages to Avoid:
- Final Destination
- Frigate Orpheon

Sonic Contributors: Camalange, Kinzer

Zero · Jul 28, 2009

I think that this matchup is at least even, if not slightly in ZSS' advantage. Sonic's speed only really hinders the 'spam side b' mentality: I would invite any Sonic main to zoom in close and eat an utilt/dtilt/jab. Our paralyser can hinder spindash assaults and thus our range game has the potential to camp Sonic. However, that being said, there's not a chance that you can keep a Sonic at bay, as we're too slow, so this matchup is constantly going to be in your face. This isn't exactly a bad thing, as our ground game outclasses Sonic's and it puts him where we want him: in the air.

Our air game completely and utterly shatters Sonics. Every one of our aerials ~~outprioritises~~, with the exception of nair because it has aerial priority beats out Sonic's options in the air, including all spins, so an aerial spin can be read and met with a string of uairs. However, if left with a brief period of time, Sonic can either escape with upB + dair and quickly be below us again, where Sonic's uair can be harmful.

Offstage, it's tough to gimp a Sonic by means of edgehogging. An offstage assault with bair and fair has high potential to KO him off the side, which is accentuated by the lack of risk of Sonic meteor smashing us or KOing us offstage (when Sonic is recovering, he'll generally be facing the stage and you, which means bair cannot hit you without you seriously messing up spacing). However, a careful Sonic will probably not be edgeguarded, as they have many versatile tools for their recovery.

Likewise, Sonic will find it tough to edgeguard us, as most characters do, with his lack of projectiles and weak aerial game. There's nothing that particularly affects our ability to recover here, so just use your discretion when flip jumping and boost jumping and whether or not to tether the edge or to land above.

Although our ground and air games are superior to Sonic, his speed in both the air and on the ground can overwhelm us and practically shut down a meticulous spacing game. Due to this, I would give this brief analysis the matchup of 55:45 ZSS.

Tien2500 · Jul 28, 2009

Pretty fair assessment. I'd just throw in the fact that Sonic has a lot of trouble KOing but I guess that goes without saying. Side B isn't generally that useful in this match but on the plus side it should be relatively fresh when it comes time to KO.

Zero · Jul 28, 2009

That is a good point. Both of Sonic's kill moves are drearily slow and are quite telegraphed, as well as not killing until high percentages. At high percentages, upsmash would also kill. The main concern is uair, which can be a surprise early killing move (compared to Sonic's other moves) , due to our light weight and tendency to be in the air. A surprise spring to uair can be deadly at even average percents, which makes it imperative that we stay below Sonic at all times. But there's really nothing that we have to focus on, if Sonic even tries a fsmash close, jab him out of it.

Something that I've been talking to few Sonic mains about is his armour piece game. Sonic's glide toss is allegedly remarkable, and being able to string many moves from his throw due to his speed. My main thought is that we don't exactly want to help Sonic's lack of priority and killing power, so I suggest being more careful with pieces against Sonic than normal.

sasook · Jul 28, 2009

I feel like you guys are underrating Sonic just a tad. Hmm....I'd correct you, because I have the mental image of what Sonic can do that hasn't been mentioned yet, but I dunno how to put it in words. It's like....D:

Get some Sonic mains here. Maybe Malcolm and Snakeee have played each other before.

Zero · Jul 28, 2009

I posted in their thread, and they've looked, but none of them have posted to refute my theory brothers prose.

Tien2500 · Jul 28, 2009

In terms of stages Norfair/Brinstar if they're legal and RC should be good. Any stages that force him to bounce between platforms and keep this match in the air.

When I've played Sonic's quite a few of them have CPed Halbred on me. Its a decent stage for him as it has room for him to run/spin around and small blast Zones which help him KO more easily.

Nefarious B · Jul 28, 2009

I can´t remember too well but I think Malcolm said h has a hard time against Snakeee when I was talking to him.

FUNKLAB · Jul 28, 2009

Firstly I'd just like to introduce myself. I've mained ZSS since maybe a 2 months after Brawl came out and am very active on AllisBrawl so I feel confident I can contribute here.

Anyway, onto the Sonic matchup. Uncharged paralyzer. I abuse this in this matchup and it has lead to success so far. Sonic's game for the most part revolves around starting any kind of string with Spin Dash. With reduced Side B spam, I throw in 2 uncharged paralyzers because they'll usually stop shielding after the first. Once that 2nd connects, dash attack and get em' into the air, where we thrive. I rarely grab, if ever, against Sonic's and they can easily punish the lag -_- so avoid grabs here unless you ABSOLUTELY know they will connect. At higher percents, if they grab you, be very weary of their Uthrow to UpB and Uair/Bair which I've seen done numerous times.

When edgeguarding, I don't really like to chase off stage unless I've stunned them offstage. Their UpB almost always is going to make it back onstage so I don't put myself at risk there. But in the air, chase chase with UpB's and Uair's as they rarely see it coming.

All in all I'd put this matchup at 60:40/55:45 ZSS as it's not too hard as most Sonic's are somewhat predictable and we have the superior ground and air game.

ThreeSided · Jul 28, 2009

FUNKLAB said:
Firstly I'd just like to introduce myself. I've mained ZSS since maybe a 2 months after Brawl came out and am very active on AllisBrawl so I feel confident I can contribute here.

What exactly does it mean to be "active" on AIB? Wouldn't that be sorta like talking to yourself? ._.

Anyway, onto the Sonic matchup. Uncharged paralyzer. I abuse this in this matchup and it has lead to success so far. Sonic's game for the most part revolves around starting any kind of string with Spin Dash. With reduced Side B spam, I throw in 2 uncharged paralyzers because they'll usually stop shielding after the first. Once that 2nd connects, dash attack and get em' into the air, where we thrive.

Really? That sounds like it would work once or twice at most... I'd just use it for spacing, like firing when they're out of range, so that they get hit if they decide to move in range. Otherwise, the move kinda has a decently large amount of lag, def. enough to give sonic an opening. And they can even still approach with Dair, or even Neutral-B, above your b-spam...

I rarely grab, if ever, against Sonic's and they can easily punish the lag -_- so avoid grabs here unless you ABSOLUTELY know they will connect.

Indeed. You should be grabbing seldomly as it is, I'd rather not even try normally against someone who can traverse FD in 1/3 of a second. ._.

At higher percents, if they grab you, be very weary of their Uthrow to UpB and Uair/Bair which I've seen done numerous times.

I hate that. -_-

When edgeguarding, I don't really like to chase off stage unless I've stunned them offstage. Their UpB almost always is going to make it back onstage so I don't put myself at risk there.

No comment here.

But in the air, chase chase with UpB's and Uair's as they rarely see it coming.

wut.

Zero · Jul 28, 2009

If anyone rarely thinks a uair is coming from us, then they need to learn the matchup.

lol @ AiB ZSS boards, besides that, I think it's another solid analysis. If no Sonic main comes and disputes what we're saying, I"ll wait for a little synopsis from Dazwa and Snakeee and we'll move on to the next matchup.

Kain17 · Jul 29, 2009

I think this matchup is most definitely in ZSS' favor. As long as the zamus can stick to jabs and tilts, we can outspeed any sonic side b. Jab, dsmash, airgame, rinse, repeat.

FUNKLAB · Jul 29, 2009

ThreeSided said:
What exactly does it mean to be "active" on AIB? Wouldn't that be sorta like talking to yourself? ._.

It means I log in daily, play in free chat/ladder daily/contribute to any sort of boards/and interact with people in the community.

ThreeSided said:
wut.

I was referring to the boosted UpB's.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 29, 2009

I've only done this MU a few times and don't wanna offer like a huge synopsis or anything, but a few tricks:

Holding A > Spindash

Dtilt > Many of Sonic's ground approaches (lol, dtilt... sonic... lol)

ThreeSided · Jul 29, 2009

Supermodel From Paris said:
(lol, dtilt... sonic... lol)

I don't get it.

Zero · Jul 29, 2009

Snakeee asserts it's 60/40 in our favour, and I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be, considering Sonic can do nothing against us, really. So I'll finish off a summary and we'll get straight into the next one: Pokemon Trainer!

Kinzer · Jul 29, 2009

*Ahem*

Sorry I've kept you waiting, you would've thought with the kind of character we would play we would've been here faster than you could refresh your page...

...but we like to keep people waiting, see what they say when we're not actually here to say anything, instead of offering our opinion to just get tossed aside like the dark days...

With that said, I like what has been said so far, on some posts anyway... some things I just want to correct.

Only scrubby Sonic's approach or attack with Spindash, if your opponent if worth any salt they will run, as in we can shield any of the stuff you throw out, not get hit out of our crappy attacks that never worked except in March/April of '08.

Uair/Bair or majorly disjointed, don't be above Sonic or have his back facing you/close to you, but then again Fair can be made good too so long as he bumrushed you with it and/or punishes a commited attack with it. You know more about your character than I do but Sonic is not helpless in the air... especially since his Spring doesn't put him in there after hehe.

I'd agree with 55/45 Zero Suit Samus' favor, I think it's even but 5 points don't really matter.

Nixernator · Jul 29, 2009

As a note Sonics Uair either is Disjointed or has long range horizontally on the first part of the kick, and disjointed vertically on the 2nd part. His Fsmash has deceptive range and, well, don't run into hypno smashes Lol.

At low %'s some Sonics will try to pseudo CG you with Uthrow while reading DI while others will Uthrow to Uair, I believe that Down-B will avoid both options and would be fairly safe if they try to follow up (assuming you don't use the attack part). And if he uses Dthrow DI it down and try to tech it immediately for a free followup, if not you will be in a tech chase situation and Sonic's speed helps him greatly in that.

Uair does beat Dair and a common problem with many Sonic's is them using Dair as a quick and "lagless" way to get to ground after a spring, be ready for this and Uair him out of it and set up a juggle.

I don't think Side-B is that effective in this match if you are used to doing it SH aerialy retreating, Sonic can cover distance quickly and get into the deadzone of it quite well.

Ugh I've probably forgotten stuff but its late and physics write up has burnt my brain.

Kinzer · Jul 29, 2009

Oh that reminds me.

Sonic does not run 1/3 of FD in a second... he runs FD IN ONE SECOND. Even less than that really, he runs FD in 55 frames, 5 frames short of a second.

One more thing, don't leave yourself punishable but don't be too slow or hesitant to act either... With every game I play I learn how much more Sonic's Speed is a saving grace and can punish just about anything, like an instant Dash Attack after a shielded attack. That's just one I can think of, I'm sure there are more but I like it since it's safe and fast.

That probably isn't very clear... let me put it this way.

Don't get predictable, and unless you feel like something won't hit, don't do it. Let's just say you have a bad habit of using Down-B on stage and always, ALWAYS using the kick attack after, anybody who is good will pick up on it and punish you... try different things every now and then to keep yourself from being too unsafe within Sonic's premises.

...It's really that simple on paper, but much harder to perform and get done in practice. I'm really not too interested in theorycraft and how to beat what with what, most of it will not work in real play where it counts and things are different, and I doubt many of you have a lot of experience with Sonic, because both characters who are played by decent people are rare.

Vegas does have a nice variety of everything though.

Browny · Jul 29, 2009

lol kinzer i had a feeling someone would mess that up. he said FD in 1/3 of a second, not the other way around

Kinzer · Jul 29, 2009

Gah.

Okay then, I think this board has the mindgames covered.

'Cause I made a correction for the wrong reason. D; <- Is mah Sonic Unleashed face.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 29, 2009

omg it's djb ^_^

Camalange · Jul 29, 2009

Welp, I've played Snakeee a lot irl, but for whatever reason we only had like, one Sonic vs ZSS match (He wanted to practice his Zelda/Shiek so I used a lot of other characters (No Nanner Diddy whuuut) which I felt wasn't that bad. I lost, it was a close match but in all honesty I played bad..for whatever reason my DI was terrible which I proved was much better by living his Shiek's Usmash at around 160% on BF >_>

Anyway, I suppose you could say "No Johns" but I'd like to talk to Snakeee, because I feel it's an even MU.

Both character suck at killing, they're both good in the air, both have versatile recoveries, and both have a great item game.

I mean, each character slighly excels in each area, but there's enough trade offs for them to be an even MU.
It's easily 50:50

Does Snakeee come on the boards reguarly? If so I'd like to discuss with him.

Supermodel From Paris said:
Holding A > Spindash

Dtilt > Many of Sonic's ground approaches (lol, dtilt... sonic... lol)

I remember beating you on wifi (lol, approaching with spindash... wifi... lol)

Sonic doesn't approach with Spindash. Spindash is strictly a punisher. Think of it as a Falcon Kick but a million times better and can be combo'd into things.

Kinzer already mentioned this but I decided to reiterate.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 29, 2009

ZSS does not suck at killing, what are you talking about? lol ZSS should kill Sonic way before he kills her.

FUNKLAB · Jul 29, 2009

Supermodel From Paris said:
ZSS does not suck at killing, what are you talking about? lol ZSS should kill Sonic way before he kills her.

Fresh Bair could kill Sonic probably around %110 depending where it connects. Her killing power is so overlooked. Nowhere near best, but nowhere near worst.

Kinzer · Jul 29, 2009

ZZS not lacking killing power?

Sure why not, It's almost like the case with Sonic where his problem isn't power (to an extent), but moreso his lack of set-ups.

But besides DSmash and the Plasma Gun (with DSmash it should be shielded and DAed in Sonic's case, I don't know how well others can avoid it, Plasma Gun I can understand since it's a projectile), what set-ups for her kill moves does she have other than the opponent's incompetence?

Zero Suit is also sort of light.

P.S. Sonic is the 18th heaviest character A.K.A he's the borderline for the cast, where does Zero Suit Samus Stand? Please don't tell me Sonic is going to be dying sooner than Zero Suit without some kind of proof, the Jigglypuff boards tried to argue this and I couldn't help but laugh, I only hope you're more reasonable with your response.

Camalange · Jul 29, 2009

Supermodel From Paris said:
ZSS does not suck at killing, what are you talking about? lol ZSS should kill Sonic way before he kills her.

FUNKLAB said:
Fresh Bair could kill Sonic probably around %110 depending where it connects. Her killing power is so overlooked. Nowhere near best, but nowhere near worst.

Alright, well let me ask this.

How high of %s can ZSS live to? From my understanding she is very light. How great of a momentum cancel does she have?

Sonic is middleweight. He has FF Fair momentum cancel, when followed by DownB completely stops all momentum. Add on a great recovery plus fastest ground speed and you got yourselves a character who doesn't die until very high percents, is near impossible to gimp, and is hard to land a kill move on.

I could say a fresh Sonic pawnch or Bair could kill at 110%, but I know well that Sonic's Bair won't be very fresh, and his pawnch is hard to land.

ZSS doesn't have a lot of kill move setups on Sonic that I'm aware of. If I'm wrong, please inform me. She also doesn't have a lot of powered kill moves, so it's pretty safe to say that both Sonic and ZSS suck when it comes to brute force killing.

SideB is very poor against Sonic imo cuz of it's moderate start up and ending lag and the attack itself can easily be avoided and punished with ASC (aerial spin charge)..not saying that good ZSS won't be landing them anyway xD Just saying it's not a saving grace.

mountain_tiger · Jul 29, 2009

If you're living past 140% against a ZSS player, they're doing it wrong.

Bair is fast, kills at 110% and when properly spaced is unpunishable on block.

Uair can chase her opponent up the stage, and is quick and reliable.

Side B is as powerful as Bair, except with more range and slower.

On topic, I think the matchup is 55:45 ZSS' favour.

sasook · Jul 29, 2009

ZSS with good DI lives to 140-150%.

Guys, Sonic has a better MC than we do. Both characters will probably be living to the same percents, at least I think so.

For the record, ZSS' KO moves are:

Uair
Bair
Fair
Flipkick, spike or not, doesn't matter
Plasma Whip

^generally. There are other situational ones, like plasma wire spike and stuff.

Camalange · Jul 29, 2009

sasook said:
ZSS with good DI lives to 140-150%.

Guys, Sonic has a better MC than we do. Both characters will probably be living to the same percents, at least I think so.

Considering this MU, I think they will generally be living around the same percents.

Also, I know ZSS has a great recovery, but I think Sonic still has enough tools to gimp her that she doesn't have on him. It won't be happening often, but it can be done. Her tether recovery leaves her susceptable to spring spikes and Dair semi spikes, so Sonic can kill that way. ZSS will probably get most of her kills from edguarding Sonic, not gimping.

For the record, ZSS' KO moves are:

Uair
Bair
Fair
Flipkick, spike or not, doesn't matter
Plasma Whip

Uair seems to me like it would get stale pretty quick since that's one of her best attacks against Sonic to rack up damage, and Fair? Does Fair honestly kill? >_>

Like, not at 160%?

mountain_tiger · Jul 29, 2009

Camalange said:
Uair seems to me like it would get stale pretty quick since that's one of her best attacks against Sonic to rack up damage, and Fair? Does Fair honestly kill? >_>

Like, not at 160%?

The second hit of Fair has pretty good knockback. Very slightly less so than Bair.

Kinzer · Jul 29, 2009

Camal mah boi, I honestly don't think you'll be gimping ZZS unless you happen to send her without her 2nd jump, or low enough where her flip-kick won't get the ledge.

I've tried it, and have been killed for it.

Zero · Jul 29, 2009

Kinzer said:
Camal mah boi, I honestly don't think you'll be gimping ZZS unless you happen to send her without her 2nd jump, or low enough where her flip-kick won't get the ledge.

I've tried it, and have been killed for it.

Yeah, Sonic doesn't exactly have the heavy projectile spam and aerial finesse required to say that it's a contributing factor to the matchup. If you're talking about MINDGAMES then it doesn't belong in this thread.

Kinzer said:
ZZS not lacking killing power?

Sure why not, It's almost like the case with Sonic where his problem isn't power (to an extent), but moreso his lack of set-ups.

But besides DSmash and the Plasma Gun (with DSmash it should be shielded and DAed in Sonic's case, I don't know how well others can avoid it, Plasma Gun I can understand since it's a projectile), what set-ups for her kill moves does she have other than the opponent's incompetence?

Zero Suit is also sort of light.

P.S. Sonic is the 18th heaviest character A.K.A he's the borderline for the cast, where does Zero Suit Samus Stand? Please don't tell me Sonic is going to be dying sooner than Zero Suit without some kind of proof, the Jigglypuff boards tried to argue this and I couldn't help but laugh, I only hope you're more reasonable with your response.

Don't think that we'll only hit you if you're in stun. Bair shield pressure is probably one of the most effective ways to score a kill, and a kill setup, by putting you in the bair, off the edge of the stage. Now, side B is not as useful in this matchup, but that's not to say that we still won't use it. In the air, we're moving and it becomes a little safer, and the ending lag is made unnoticeable. Due to its lingering, it can punish an airdodge and as it will most probably be fresh in this matchup, it will probably kill you early.

As for other kill setups, you being in the air is a good setup. Fair walls will hurt you and can kill a careless Sonic offstage. Uair can kill even when staled if you're both up high, which we can reach via double boost jumps. I mentioned before how Sonic has no way of dealing with you when you're in front of him, and that will hurt.

Yes, Zero Suit is light, and lacking a good momentum cancel, however she is a fairly fast faller and after her 4 frame uair, fast falling will kill a lot of momentum. Your hypno smash won't often hit, since it's telegraphed, your bair will mostly be stale, just like ours, and well, uair will be the only move we have to worry about. I wrote a little bit on Dsmash just in case you guys considered it useable, but I don't think you do.

Camalange · Jul 29, 2009

Sonic is still great in the air. I personally feel it's stronger than his ground game (grab game is a whole different story...)

Sonic's Fair and Uair both start on 4th frame, Fair makes for a great aerial punisher/approach and Uair is great at juggling. Sonic can be just as much of a harrassment in the air as ZSS, she's just a more deadly because that's how she rely's on kills and can "climb the air" with hitboxes so to speak...it's like she has 5 jumps >_> whereas Sonic excels at gimping.

Sonic's Bair is also a very disjointed well ranged spacer. It will most likely be stale, but can still kill offstage when edgeguarding at higher %s. I still think ZSS > Sonic overall in that area, but Sonic is no joke either.

The only major things I see ZSS having over Sonic are her 1 frame jab and Uair.

I can settle for a 55:45 MU, but it might as well be even.

Zero · Jul 29, 2009

How to deal with fair: SDI down and uair. I'm sorry, but it's being negated.

Yeah, I acknowledged that your bair was a good option to cover your back, and is why I recommended against careless crossovers lest you eat a bair to the chest. That being said, our main aerial spacer, neutral air, will outprioritise it and most probably hit you out of it.

I thought it was 55:45 too, but Snakeee said it was 60:40 and upon rereading my analysis, I couldn't see why not.

I'll post more after I get to school, gotta get ready.

mountain_tiger · Jul 29, 2009

Zero_ said:
How to deal with fair: SDI down and uair. I'm sorry, but it's being negated.

Yeah, I acknowledged that your bair was a good option to cover your back, and is why I recommended against careless crossovers lest you eat a bair to the chest. That being said, our main aerial spacer, neutral air, will outprioritise it and most probably hit you out of it.

I thought it was 55:45 too, but Snakeee said it was 60:40 and upon rereading my analysis, I couldn't see why not.

I'll post more after I get to school, gotta get ready.

Do you live in the southern hemisphere by any chance? Summer vacation started here ages ago...

Camalange · Jul 29, 2009

Zero_ said:
How to deal with fair: SDI down and uair. I'm sorry, but it's being negated.

I gotta admit I laughed.

Diddy's Fsmash can be SDI'd and teched yet I still almost never see that happening. OS posted a video forever ago how to SDI out of Snake's Nair yet I still see people die from it.

I'm sorry, but my Fair is not going to be consistently SDI'd out of when I'm punishing.

Yeah, I acknowledged that your bair was a good option to cover your back, and is why I recommended against careless crossovers lest you eat a bair to the chest. That being said, our main aerial spacer, neutral air, will outprioritise it and most probably hit you out of it.

Most probably is very silly. I could say that any move in the game would beat out your attacks if I did it first.

I thought it was 55:45 too, but Snakeee said it was 60:40 and upon rereading my analysis, I couldn't see why not.

I just talked to Malcolm and he never said anything about ZSS being hard for Sonic, he said to Snakeee that Wario vs ZSS was 1011j922909 times harder than playing Sonic vs ZSS so I'm not convinced. He also refuses to post in this thread so that's gotta say something about the discussion...

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