Match-Up Rediscussion #4! Zero Suit Samus

noradseven · Jul 15, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
No time for babies when ur saving the world and killing your former comrades that betrayed you know what I'm saying?

And yeah they mentioned her former commanding officer as a potential love interest.

TOO BAD HE'S DEAD M I RITE GAIZ?!

But seriously, gay jokes have been done to death and the Marth boards have heard it all. If you insist on doing them make it tasteful and interesting at the very least.

Not that I care too much.

I just lurk.

Posts: 5,837 <---- :rotfl:

About the jokes, its tradition man its tradition, ZSS players have too put up with them too its part of the character.

Marth has better outfits than ZSS that is for sure his white one is just FABULOUS.
*seriously its awesome

Emblem Lord · Jul 15, 2009

A good 3800 of the posts are from when I was a Melee player then the rest are from when I was playing Brawl.

TKD+ITA+Mar= · Jul 15, 2009

Steel must be right because his name is red.

C.box · Jul 15, 2009

How is zss better in the air?

He should not be able to stay inside long because of this?

Curiously, how do you intend to stay inside? Utilt comes out on frame3, powershield+uair on any attack you do at close range is pretty much guaranteed. Dash attack is frame 6, jab is frame 1. At best you can deal some serious damage to her at close range but your best options will just knock her into mid-range again.

Marth's jab and dancing blade come out in frame 4 and outrange both utilt and jab, dash attack isn't safe.

Like steel said if you RUN away your putting yourself in a corner... Whats happens when your at the edge and can't run anymore? You gonna try to run past marth? Go on the ledge?

How is powershield uair reliable on a character with 4 frame fair, 5 frame nair, 4 frame jab, 4 frame side b, and a 7 frame dtilt considering to powershield you need to put up your shield 3 frames before the initial hit.

OmegaXF · Jul 15, 2009

C.box said:
How is zss better in the air?

How is powershield uair reliable on a character with 4 frame fair, 5 frame nair, 4 frame jab, 4 frame side b, and a 7 frame dtilt considering to powershield you need to put up your shield 3 frames before the initial hit.

Dolphin Slash 1-5 Sex frames....

∫unk · Jul 15, 2009

Dolphin Slash is terrible vs ZSS... you get ***** too hard if you miss.

feardragon64 · Jul 15, 2009

This discussion went from useful, to nice, to meh, to Steel being bored, to EL being bored, to useless.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 15, 2009

norad's right, this match-up is like 90:10 Marth's favor. How can ZSS beat Marth in the air? She's not Marth after all. Yeah, there's no way. 90:10 sounds about right.

Shaya · Jul 15, 2009

Chill kids.

60:40 is definitely not horrible. But for a while now I've thought it to be close to 55:45 (Marth), with Marth just loving ZSS's lightweight and play style that falls right into Marth's utilts and nairs.

ZSS will not be beating Marth in the air with her bair like let's say... Wolf.

60:40 could still be accurate.

90:10 if you want to include the bthrow to fsmash that works at like 65%. loooooooooooooool.

noradseven · Jul 15, 2009

Shaya said:
Chill kids.

60:40 is definitely not horrible. But for a while now I've thought it to be close to 55:45 (Marth), with Marth just loving ZSS's lightweight and play style that falls right into Marth's utilts and nairs.

ZSS will not be beating Marth in the air with her bair like let's say... Wolf.

60:40 could still be accurate.

90:10 if you want to include the bthrow to fsmash that works at like 65%. loooooooooooooool.

Did they try down B-ing, it gets out of p. much anything, plus even if it works the bthrow to f-smash is very damage specific, so I doubt it will come up much. If it was sacrasm sorry its hard to tell sarcasm with text sometimes.

Our b-air beats wolfs :D.... but wolfs movement pattern makes it easier to get off.

Also u-air is our air supremacy move, its 4 frames and recovers crazy fast and has dumb *** range. That being said I really don't think we beat marth air, we go around even *many factors included, but because of marths movement pattern and the way he approaches is actually great for ZSS's, like when SFP says we run away, he means we block your f-air step back(or forward if you are crossing up, yes we can see it its telegraphed), over B back marth really doesn't have a punish for this because his dash attack isn't very good which is really the only thing keeping this match being even otherwise I would completely agree with 6:4 marth's favor.

Trust me lacking a good ground approach attack against ZSS is not good for you, a stutter step into our over B dead zone can be quite gay though, but then again we could just f-smash *actually useful against marth.

Its a weird match and in my opinion one of the hardest to accuratly read, but just dismissing it as lol ZSS walks right into us, do you really expect us to keep doing the same thing if it doesn't work, ZSS is a relatively flexible character, thats why ZSS players have varying styles and different prefered moves/approachs.

Emblem Lord · Jul 15, 2009

You guys need to stop being so hostile towards the Marth boards.

Actually every character board needs to stop.

Swear on my life I read between the words of every single match-up thread the Marth boards has and the animosity from the other boards just leaps at me.

Nobody is dismissing your character gawd****. No one even said anything like that to give you that idea.

I personally see this as 55/45 Marth. Not so much because of Marth himself. More due to ZSS's shortcomings.

Marth has d-tilt on the ground btw.

noradseven · Jul 15, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
You guys need to stop being so hostile towards the Marth boards.

Actually every character board needs to stop.

Swear on my life I read between the words of every single match-up thread the Marth boards has and the animosity from the other boards just leaps at me.

Nobody is dismissing your character gawd****. No one even said anything like that to give you that idea.

I personally see this as 55/45 Marth. Not so much because of Marth himself. More due to ZSS's shortcomings.

Marth has d-tilt on the ground btw.

The main reason ppl are hostile, is ppl are stubborn, and they don't like other ppl telling them they are wrong(conflicting opinions), its true.

If someone has an opinion different then yours the first thought is they must be wrong, this is normal, I mean its not what you think, that is why ppl seem so hostile, but in actuality you are just as hostile.

"More due to ZSS's shortcomings."

Trust me d-tilt has a bad angle for hitting ZSS our over B extends our hitbox, but it extends it fairly high, and marths d-tilt will go under it by a little. Not too say it still isn't useful but there is really no ace in the hole for either side in this match, if fact ZSS should be hitting marth more than visa versa, however marth is more than likely going to kill earlier.

I personally think we do not have enough data on this match of top ZSS player vs top marth player recently and in numerous results to really make a solid judgement.

Steel · Jul 15, 2009

Results should have nothing to do with discussions/ratios : /

noradseven · Jul 15, 2009

Steel2nd said:
Results should have nothing to do with discussions/ratios : /

Are you serious???, bwhahahahaha, sorry I am from SRK origially and I find this absolutely hilarious, Im quoting that in my sig.

Emblem Lord · Jul 15, 2009

You are from SRK and you play Brawl.

The **** is wrong with you? lol.

Now THAT'S sig worthy.

And Steel is right to a point. Match-ups are based on theory and then tested on the battlefield then the theory is reworked accordingly.

It's an on going process.

noradseven · Jul 15, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
You are from SRK and you play Brawl.

The **** is wrong with you? lol.

Now THAT'S sig worthy.

And Steel is right to a point. Match-ups are based on theory and then tested on the battlefield then the theory is reworked accordingly.

It's an on going process.

Its just backwards cause, every other fighter(RTS's as well), base the tier list off of tourney results, normally only taking the results of maybe the 3-5 most successful players in the country, and the results when they fought each other, or something like this, regardless its normally very accurate after about 1 year.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 15, 2009

norad brawl has too many characters for that. I can't think of a single recent ZSS vs Marth match between "top players" that wasn't won by ZSS. That doesn't mean the match-up is in ZSS' favor, though.

Also, Shaya, this is not a 60:40 match-up. Your only experience in the match-up is Zero, and while Zero is good enough to compete, he isn't as good a player as you by a stretch and just from watching his videos I can tell he isn't as experienced or technical. A better ZSS player would give you a much harder time. I'm aware that 60:40 isn't "that bad." But you guys are still talking about ZSS like the game is four months old, or like Zero and Supermodel From Paris-quality players are the only ones you're playing.

I'll say this: the gap between a player like me, or Zero, and a player like Nick Riddle is ridiculous with ZSS. Just by the way some of you guys talk about certain moves I can tell this discussion isn't worth having.

noradseven · Jul 15, 2009

Supermodel From Paris said:
norad brawl has too many characters for that. I can't think of a single ZSS vs Marth match between "top players" that wasn't won by ZSS. That doesn't mean the match-up is in ZSS' favor, though.

Thats why I said we don't have enough data to really make a good call :/.

Also 35 characters are alot, but MvC2 somehow got a defined tier list and it has like 50-60 characters and a team system, which made they have to develop 2 different tier lists and a 3rd which was the 2 put together.

Emblem Lord · Jul 15, 2009

MvC2 lists are PURE data tested theory though.

There aren't really any talks of match-ups.

Just space control strats and the like.

Emblem Lord · Jul 15, 2009

noradseven said:
Its just backwards cause, every other fighter(RTS's as well), base the tier list off of tourney results, normally only taking the results of maybe the 3-5 most successful players in the country, and the results when they fought each other, or something like this, regardless its normally very accurate after about 1 year.

Also I'm inclined to disagree because tourney results can be misleading when not everything about a match is being used. Just because someone is a top player does not necessarily mean they know a match well or that they are even tapping the full potential of the character.

That's why people study their characters and apply knowledge of movesets and blah blah.

∫unk · Jul 15, 2009

WarpStatus is ranked in SoCal. WarpStatus and I play each other more than anyone. We both know the matchup pretty **** good.

It basically comes down to... Marth is a fast character. Marth can get inside because of this by simply running and shielding. If the ZSS didn't space perfect then Marth's inside, if not Marth resets. MK gets the same benefit. Someone like DDD on the other hand (with a terrible shield and slow as hell) is not reaching ZSS quickly. His lack of a good aerial out of shield to hit the 7'o clock area (like Marth's f-air and MK's d-air out of shield) also hinders him.

WarpStatus runs into the ~6 good Marths in SoCal all the time >_> He's beaten MikeHAZE once when he wasn't playing well, Mike has beaten him every other time.

I think BoA has an even record vs Warp. He beat him at Genesis.

I have a winning record vs Warp.

Warp says fighting Marth is hard because you can't really have a simple gameplan to beat him, you have to constantly think and adjust to different playstyles and tricks (especially off of db1 since ZSS has so few viable out of shield options at that range vs Marth).

Does this mean he doesn't know the matchup or he's inexperienced? Definitely not. He's the first ZSS that I saw really abuse Marth's weak point under him to the point where full hopping/platforms are just stupid vs him.

So whoever said that a good ZSS doesn't fight a good Marth and ZSS usually wins a high level match just has no idea what they're talking about.

Just because you don't hear about WarpStatus on SWF because he likes to lurk instead of post doesn't mean he's ****** it up on the West Coast. He was the top placing ZSS at Genesis.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 15, 2009

Warp is the best ZSS on the west coast, well maybe Faded is better I dunno, but he's only the top-placing ZSS at Genesis because Snakeee, Dazwa, and Riddle weren't there.

There wasn't a single "top" ZSS at Genesis and there are no "top" ZSS players on the West Coast.

∫unk · Jul 15, 2009

I'd agree with that statement but it's kind of a silly point...

"If a better player was there then they would have placed better."

Steel · Jul 15, 2009

noradseven said:
Are you serious???, bwhahahahaha, sorry I am from SRK origially and I find this absolutely hilarious, Im quoting that in my sig.

Yeah, I'm pretty serious. I don't need to explain though since EL just did that.

If you're from SRK this should all look pretty familiar right? : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 15, 2009

JunkInTheTrunk said:
I'd agree with that statement but it's kind of a silly point...

"If a better player was there then they would have placed better."

All I was saying is your match-up experience against Warp means less than you think it does. Warp is very talented and is a very good player. He is not "top level" although he probably could be (I really like WarpStatus, tell him I said hello and to come on IRC more often lol).

My point is that top level ZSS vs high level ZSS is another ball game. The difference is huge. I'm confident that anyone who's played a top ZSS will agree.

What's SRK?

∫unk · Jul 15, 2009

"All I was saying is your match-up experience against Warp means less than you think it does."

There is no way to prove that, sorry.

Until Dazwa or another EC ZSS steps it up and shows up or I travel again, I can't really prove my experience. This is actually a huge gripe I have with Warp. He ONLY knows how to play ZSS well. I'm giving him multiple characters of experience, while he's giving me... ZSS experience. I've fought two ZSS other than him (Kokaloo and Fierce). Both I won (the games that were Marth vs ZSS).

You can't make a claim as to how much better they are because it's really just impossible to judge in the current situation.

I understand the difference between high level and top level. Playing other Falcos helps me fight DEHF... it's just DEHF is roughly 1000x smarter. In my experience that's never been matchup altering... but it might be different for Marth vs ZSS.

I don't think you really have any say on whether or not my experience would help vs EC ZSS.

TKD+ITA+Mar= · Jul 15, 2009

Supermodel From Paris said:
My point is that top level ZSS vs high level ZSS is another ball game. The difference is huge. I'm confident that anyone who's played a top ZSS will agree.

True, but doesn't that apply to every character?

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 15, 2009

Junk: Some ZSS players struggle at using other characters because she's very different to play and we have a lot of habits that don't mesh well with other characters. BTW, this isn't a good thing... I find it very hard to pick up and learn non-ZSS characters so picking a secondary has been challenging.

noradseven · Jul 15, 2009

Junk in the trunk I know the feeling I play random half the time and am well versed with the tactics/setups/play style, of the entire cast and I kinda lost my temper at 2 of my friends who only played MK and olimar all day long, for like 2 weeks straight, it was like lets have a falcon match, "nope practicing for tourny"

Steel2nd said:
Yeah, I'm pretty serious. I don't need to explain though since EL just did that.

If you're from SRK this should all look pretty familiar right? : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705

Ohhh I see what you are saying, I wasn't saying if X/Y was a better player blah de blah de blah, that is kinda stuff I hate.

I was saying I wish we had more high level ZSS's fighting high level marth's, its always good for reference and plus then ppl have some more claim rather than ppl just running off theory based off playing there 1 friend.

FIERCE · Jul 15, 2009

JunkInTheTrunk said:
"All I was saying is your match-up experience against Warp means less than you think it does."

There is no way to prove that, sorry.

Until Dazwa or another EC ZSS steps it up and shows up or I travel again, I can't really prove my experience. This is actually a huge gripe I have with Warp. He ONLY knows how to play ZSS well. I'm giving him multiple characters of experience, while he's giving me... ZSS experience. I've fought two ZSS other than him (Kokaloo and Fierce). Both I won (the games that were Marth vs ZSS).

You can't make a claim as to how much better they are because it's really just impossible to judge in the current situation.

I understand the difference between high level and top level. Playing other Falcos helps me fight DEHF... it's just DEHF is roughly 1000x smarter. In my experience that's never been matchup altering... but it might be different for Marth vs ZSS.

I don't think you really have any say on whether or not my experience would help vs EC ZSS.

But I won one of those matches and then the set? =X (ily junk)
But to add onto your comment about ZSS Mains, I find a lot of hthem just main ZSS exclusively and now that people are picking up Falco it's important to pick up other characters to counter him. (I go Sheik or Zelda usually. Peach if I feel nasty.)

I think in essence, all ZSS's play differently and all Marths play differently. When you & I played our match I had you figured out by the second game. I didn't have to know your character I just had to adjust to your playstyle (which is why I could gamble with Zelda since she could punish easier). When I played MikeHAZE in tournament recently I made sure to stay as far away from him as possible and UTILIZE the Neutral Special in our last two games (he won the first on SV) and I was able to hold a steady lead to win the set.

I play HavoK & Nabil all the time so I'm fairly strong in the matchup (when it comes to different playstyles since they're opposites). In the near future I might get back into going to tournaments but for now I go sparingly. I obtain my entertainment from other resources. (insert crack of whip here)

∫unk · Jul 15, 2009

I thought you ***** me with Zelda game 2 and 3? I forget it was a long time ago.

I dunno either way I guess I suck. You **** though.

Another reason for me to not play Marth.

/emo

edit: I hate when people nitpick posts... I guess that's why no one joins these matchup discussions.

Oh well not posting in here again.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Jul 15, 2009

noradseven said:
Are you serious???, bwhahahahaha, sorry I am from SRK origially and I find this absolutely hilarious, Im quoting that in my sig.

You shouldn't to get too puffed up about what steel said because you look really silly. If results determined match up then it would be rather stupid. Because each player isn't on the same level. So if someone is ****** tournaments with no one there does it really matter when they go to a real tourney and get wrecked ?

FadedImage · Jul 15, 2009

lol sfp disregarding all west coast ZSS's. Warp and I are both legit ZSSs.

I go pretty even with MikeHAZE. Overall he's taken more matches off me, but that's probably because he's a better player imo (ranked top5 in socal right now?). This is of course anecdotal, but it's just to let you know I know the match-up.

besides theory, I can say that the spacing is difficult for both characters, close combat is tough for both characters, and recovering is tough for both characters. Really, there's so many ways for both of them to mess each other up, it really does boil down to a near even match-up.

imo it's 50:50. but 55:45 in either way is close enough to accurate. 60:40 would be too much of an exaggeration though.

Nefarious B · Jul 16, 2009

FadedImage said:
lol sfp disregarding all west coast ZSS's. Warp and I are both legit ZSSs.

I go pretty even with MikeHAZE. Overall he's taken more matches off me, but that's probably because he's a better player imo (ranked top5 in socal right now?). This is of course anecdotal, but it's just to let you know I know the match-up.

besides theory, I can say that the spacing is difficult for both characters, close combat is tough for both characters, and recovering is tough for both characters. Really, there's so many ways for both of them to mess each other up, it really does boil down to a near even match-up.

imo it's 50:50. but 55:45 in either way is close enough to accurate. 60:40 would be too much of an exaggeration though.

Agreed with this post. They both can wreck each other in many ways, it's really up to the players to take advantage of the ways they each can beat the other.

Shaya · Jul 16, 2009

Hi Nefarious, we met at genesis

My aussie mate beat you in pools ;_; and you didnt end up playing a friendly with me

Anyway, Zamus has good enough range, good enough kill power, combo potential (on Marth -> uair/utilt and dsmash starters) etc etc to make it pretty close to even. I guess DS can 'gimp' ZSS, counter becomes slightly more usable than normal...

THE REAL QUESTION IS whether or not jab will cancel/clash with ZSS's side-b.

Also I played some Zamus in friendlies on the Saturday morning, armor pieces are pretty **** good at giving ZSS an -almost- stock lead if used efficiently... Really because we can't exactly do any downwards vertical zoning and there's three of them... blah.

Oh and Supermodel, I did not consider my matches with zero anything to do with my opinion on match ups. I feel I understand the game well enough to go hmm this this this, oh well I lost against this specific player because they're better than me anyway BUT I know Marth has the advantage because of how well -this- works... etc etc

60:40 would really depend on how much potential Marth has for gimping Zamus, I personally haven't delved into that so much, hence why I'm sticking a 55:45 (Marth) due to Marth's superiority at midrange; better out of shield options, better horizontal combo potential, and ZSS not being able to really 'outspace' Marth's killing options as well as she'd hope to.

feardragon64 · Jul 17, 2009

Mkay, call it steel. Everyone seems pretty happy with saying it's between 55:45 and 50:50

TKD+ITA+Mar= · Jul 17, 2009

Compromise with 52.5:47.5 ? Hahaha

M4ge · Aug 1, 2009

My information is based on friendlies with a good ZSS main. Main things to watch out for in this matchup are dsmash and uair. Uair is gay, you can get juggled for a while if you get caught up in it. Dsmash leads to a whole crapload of options so that's another annoying thing to look out for. At high percents, the ZSS will probably try to kill with SH bair, Fspecial, and Dsmash to w/e. Careful when trying to gimp her, she can shoot that laser at you while she recovers, reversing the whole situation if you get hit with it.

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