Zero Suit Matchup Discussion - The Bad - Ness

Zero · Jul 28, 2009

TheZeroSuit said:
Introduction

It has generally been concluded that Ørion's thread and Snakeee's thread should be combined into a more comprehensive and complete guide. This will also give us a chance to go over any information that is outdated or lacking and fill in the gaps.

Re-introduction

Much time has passed since the release of Brawl to the complete Smashboards community, and much of the initial matchup discussion has been completed in many of the character boards. Due to the unusually small number of contributors to our board, our matchup discussions often linger and stagnate for many weeks, and as a consequence, we have only completed 12 complete discussions.

This thread's purpose is to begin matchup discussion on character's who as of the Tier List v3, exist underneath position 29. The characters to be discussed are:

After all discussion has been concluded, the information will be compiled into one matchup thread.

Current Discussion: Ness

NESS NESS NESS NESS NESS.The budding explorer from Eagleland packs a punch with his PSI throws and scary aerial game. Will our aerial options make Ness feel good? Or is his PK power overwhelming?

Ratio Chart:

Large Advantage (70+):

Advantage (60-65):

Even (45-55):

Disadvantage (35-40):

Large Disadvantage (30-):

Format:

Strengths:

Weaknesses:

Final Verdict:

Matchup Advice:

Exploiting Strengths:
Minimizing Weaknesses:
Suitpiece Strategy:
Approach Alterations:
In the Air:
Attacks to Look for:
- xxxx
  Description:
  How to Counter/Avoid:
  DI: 0°
  SDI: 0°
How to Edgeguard:
How to Recover:
Special Information:

Counterpick Advice:

Stages to Counter-pick:
Stages to Avoid:

<character> Contributors:

xxxx

<character>'s Thread

ThreeSided · Jul 28, 2009

I'd think that our top priorities for this would be Mario, Ness, Yoshi, and Samus. They seem to be issues for me, though I don't know about anyone else.

Zero · Jul 28, 2009

So the ones that some people use?

Personally I'd like to discuss Ness first, since I've had some trouble against him, losing pivotal matches x_x

Kain17 · Jul 28, 2009

I vote to do Yoshi first, he has some serious bull**** to work around. (Mostly on Yoshi's island.)

Zero · Jul 28, 2009

If that were all we had to worry about, cancel Yoshi's in round 1 and ban it in round 2, problem solved

Yankee · Jul 28, 2009

I say mario because i think he is the most annoying of that group. And maybe ness.

Tien2500 · Jul 31, 2009

For the sake of speeding this thing up I'm going to say start with Samus. Make the topic now.

FUNKLAB · Aug 1, 2009

I say Samus, please. Not that it's a tough matchup but a few things I'd like to work on.

Blade1844 · Aug 1, 2009

Zero_ said:
So the ones that some people use? Personally I'd like to discuss Ness first, since I've had some trouble against him, losing pivotal matches x_x

Agreed, I too have had issues with Ness and it may just be that I am not used to the match-up but there are a few things he can do to eff up ZSS's game.

Kain17 · Aug 1, 2009

ah, no one wants to discuss yoshi, so I vote we do samus, and get that ditto over with.

Nixernator · Aug 1, 2009

Can it be Ness?

Zero · Aug 1, 2009

This proves without a doubt that democracy will get us nowhere.

Ness

Strengths:

Weaknesses:

Final Verdict:

Matchup Advice:

Exploiting Strengths:
Minimizing Weaknesses:
Suitpiece Strategy:
Approach Alterations:
In the Air:
Attacks to Look for:
- xxxx
  Description:
  How to Counter/Avoid:
  DI: 0°
  SDI: 0°
How to Edgeguard:
How to Recover:
Special Information:

Counterpick Advice:

Stages to Counter-pick:
Stages to Avoid:

<character> Contributors:

xxxx

<character>'s Thread

Supermodel From Paris · Aug 1, 2009

ness sux gimp him and grab release LOL

AdmantNESS · Aug 3, 2009

Well, I may not be able to provide too much input but Ill try. When Zss was discussed last Sept/Oct., well I dunno how much of this is relevant now, but this what FadedImage said:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5478943&postcount=360

FadedImage said:
Okay, let's break it down a little bit, since ViceGrip and I probably have some of the best experience in this matchup possible, I mean, we're freaking doubles partners, we play each other all the time.

Here's how I see it breaking down:

55 - 45 Ness's Favor

Aerial:
When Ness is above ZSS, he has to worry about getting poked at with the up-b or u-air, he can't always rely on the d-air to cover him. However, ZSS has to also be really careful not to carelessly approach that d-air, since it ***** worlds. When ZSS is above Ness, he's got the advantage, u-airs will **** ZSS and she has no downward facing hitbox that is good. However, in the event Ness tries to PKT harass, ZSS can d-air through the head of the PKT (tail will still hit her if it's improperly spaced) and thusly run straight into Ness.

Ground:
ZSS probably has the advantage as far as useful ground moves go. The problem is it's hard to get Ness in a situation where you're duking it out on equal footing. For the most part he will be short hopping aerials in your direction. Surprisingly enough, ZSS's grab is extremely useful in this matchup (most times it just blows). If a Ness tries to space an aerial by hitting the shield and then backing off to land, ZSS's grab range will allow her to still shield grab him, there's no outspacing it. Ness also has to watch out for retreating pivot grabs, since his short hop is fairly low and there's a good chance he'll get grabbed out of his approach. When ZSS lands a grab, she can aerially release grab combo him for a guaranteed u-air (10 dmg), and possibly a f-air (17 dmg, can KO). However, this still doesn't account for the super safe approaches Ness can do by short hopping a f-air and landing with jabs. There's basically nothing a ZSS can do against it.

Killing:
Ness has a pretty **** easy time killing ZSS. His b-throw is great and u-air does tend to kill fairly early. However, ZSS matches him in this regard. B-air can kill fairly early and Ness can be chased aerially easily enough for a u-air KO.

Edgeguarding:
ZSS can force Ness to recover high by tethering the edge (which result in a 'bounce' if Ness aimed for the ledge) which results in ZSS having a free aerial. However, on the flipside, if Ness properly predicts the tether when ZSS is recovering, there will be spikes a plenty. Luckily tether isn't ZSS's only option, and lucky for Ness, he won't often be in a situation where he's below the stage trying to recover (ZSS doesn't have anything that hits outward like that).

SOOO tl;dr version:
Basically equal everywhere, except Ness has much much safer and more reliable approaches.

Oh, and about psi-magnet: absorbing the gun just means that ZSS has one less spacing option, which means she'll just rely more heavily on side-b, no biggie.

This was the discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5380955#post5380955

Uffe · Aug 3, 2009

I'm not sure what to make of your list, but here's what I can say. I believe Ness has a better aerial game than ZSS while ZSS has a better ground game than Ness. ZSS however, if caught, can combo Ness in the air and has an anti-aerial attack. ZSS can space herself very well with her forward B, but Ness can still get around it with dodging and blocking. I believe Ness has the tools to deal with ZSS and overall I believe that this match up is very close.

Technically neither one has to approach. In the beginning of the match ZSS may or may not throw a piece of her armor downward to keep aerial attacks at bay and may also toss her armor pieces towards her opponent. Ness, as well as other characters can also do the same if they get their hands on the pieces of ZSS' armor. Ness can survive for a long amount of time, maybe around 130-140% while ZSS is able to rack up damage on Ness very quick!

Ness mains need to watch out for ZSS' grab release. She can use her uair twice after a grab release and possibly follow it up with her Plasma Whip to pull Ness down. It's not the worst thing for Ness, though. However, it can be used as a killer if you get grabbed, which isn't too likely. For ZSS, she's got to watch out for a lot of Ness' attacks for they can kill her somewhat early on in the match.

As far as counterpicking goes, Ness does bad on Yoshi's Island, Melee and Brawl. Lylat Cruise is another choice, but it's not that well for most characters. Overall, Ness doesn't do half bad on most stages. You might want to choose a stage where recovering may not work out so well for Ness such as Frigate Orpheon.

As far as recovery options go, I don't believe ZSS really has a gimping method other than edge hogging and edge guarding with her d-smash. Ness is somewhat the same, I suppose. ZSS can still make a good full recovery back to the stage without much of a problem.

Supermodel From Paris · Aug 3, 2009

Uffe: Good post.

- Side-b gimping can work on Ness surprisingly well if he is forced to recover high, because side-b "absorbs" PK Thunder (and can hit him of course) and ZSS isn't at risk to be hit by PKT2.

In response to faded's post:

- uair beats ness' dair but the spacing is pretty hard (read: like really hard)

Zero · Aug 3, 2009

Uffe said:
I'm not sure what to make of your list

Ahahaha, don't take it as an attack on Ness, it's basically a cover all label I used to divide the tier list into manageable groups. I personally think Ness is underrated and is a difficult matchup for ZSS.

The old information is generally very accurate, especially in the regard of a careless approach, as Ness' dair truly does **** worlds. However, ZSS' vertical speed allows her to judge the best possible option based on what you do, and if you don't dair, an uair will be very quick to appear. Generally you do not want to be above Ness as ZSS, and we do not want to be above Ness.

The general Ness approach is SH/DJ fair. The fair is great, however it has a crucial blind spot below him, which we can abuse, especially on a DJ fair. As far as I know, our nair does not outrange Ness fair, although if Ness approaches with bair, or is using bair, nair should beat it. Ness nair is quite easy for us to deal with, with all of our aerials beating it. It's quick and very good OoS though, so watch out.

You shouldn't be relying on your grab, however it does provide you with good damage and with putting Ness in a disadvantageous position. Ness' grab, however, should be avoided like the plague. Fthrow is great at low percents and Bthrow will kill very quickly, at roughly 120-130% from the centre with very good DI. Our ground options are quite better than Ness, with an array of quick options which when well spaced, will be tough to beat. The key is good spacing, both in the air and the ground, to avoid his grab and aerials.

Spacing with sB is an effective spacing tool, and can hinder an aerial approach quite well. Paralyser is also useful, and an activation of a PSI magnet can be accounted for and punished with a grab/dash attack. If you maintain good spacing, there really isn't much Ness can do.

Off the stage, both characters have few effective options of preventing the recovery of the other. However, saving the dB jump is a smart option as PKT spam can interrupt a smooth recovery. Being predictable with tether is also a nono, as your head is prone to dair. If you have no choice but to do this, meteor cancel with upB like your life depends on it. Which it does. Conversely, if Ness is offstage, PKT can be interrupted by either collision with a body or by contact with an attack, the safest of which is Plasma Whip.

The golden rule of offstage fighting is: BE CAREFUL AND BE WARY OF NESS DAIR.

I think this leads to a matchup slightly in ZSS favour, due to our options to restrict a Ness approach. Everything else is evenly contested.

Supermodel From Paris · Aug 3, 2009

BTW while we have the ness boards here I just wanna say Ness rocks hard. That is all

noradseven · Aug 3, 2009

I actually play this match alot I know a p. decent ness main, aka wins a few rounds in tournies before getting knocked, out.

The thing with ness is watch out for grab and d-air, and b-air/n-air at higher percents and ness well he really can't kill us.

Just evading grab and d-air is p. simple, and because ness's tend to take alot of risks to get grabs once we are at like 70% health, really start abusing it if you can predict it you can punish it, also up Bing ness's trying to run out and d-air is hilarious. Don't forget how crazy fast the earlier hits of up B come out.

Uffe · Aug 3, 2009

Zero_ said:
Ahahaha, don't take it as an attack on Ness, it's basically a cover all label I used to divide the tier list into manageable groups. I personally think Ness is underrated and is a difficult matchup for ZSS.

I know it wasn't an attack. I was just looking at it and wondering how to use it. I tried like three times until I just gave up and wrote whatever. :laugh:

Zero_ said:
The old information is generally very accurate, especially in the regard of a careless approach, as Ness' dair truly does **** worlds. However, ZSS' vertical speed allows her to judge the best possible option based on what you do, and if you don't dair, an uair will be very quick to appear. Generally you do not want to be above Ness as ZSS, and we do not want to be above Ness.

I think it's best if Ness doesn't hang around above ZSS too much as well since she can use her Plasma Whip as an anti-aerial.

Zero_ said:
The general Ness approach is SH/DJ fair. The fair is great, however it has a crucial blind spot below him, which we can abuse, especially on a DJ fair. As far as I know, our nair does not outrange Ness fair, although if Ness approaches with bair, or is using bair, nair should beat it. Ness nair is quite easy for us to deal with, with all of our aerials beating it. It's quick and very good OoS though, so watch out.

Yeah, the lower part does leave Ness open, but I don't think it does too much. As for bair, it's a good killer, but you're right, I think it leaves Ness open, but it's also risky for the other player to attack it as well since it can kill, even if it trades hits. Like if I'm in Ness dittos and I see the other Ness trying to use his bair, I may either break through it or get hit because I was too slow to hit him first.

Zero_ said:
You shouldn't be relying on your grab, however it does provide you with good damage and with putting Ness in a disadvantageous position. Ness' grab, however, should be avoided like the plague. Fthrow is great at low percents and Bthrow will kill very quickly, at roughly 120-130% from the centre with very good DI. Our ground options are quite better than Ness, with an array of quick options which when well spaced, will be tough to beat. The key is good spacing, both in the air and the ground, to avoid his grab and aerials.

Likewise. Except we have the air. But yeah, I generally don't grab ZSS too often because her attacks are quick and Ness can easily get punished by it. I think the best time to grab her is if she attempts to grab and miss first. Anyway, Ness' ground attacks are average, but ZSS makes them look like rubbish compared to hers.

Zero_ said:
Spacing with sB is an effective spacing tool, and can hinder an aerial approach quite well. Paralyser is also useful, and an activation of a PSI magnet can be accounted for and punished with a grab/dash attack. If you maintain good spacing, there really isn't much Ness can do.

Well, Ness can get around it, it's just a bit difficult is all. And this is the part where I stated that neither really has to approach. I mean if ZSS makes a wall that Ness can't get around, Ness can use his projectile at a distances. Also, I'm not sure if everybody already knows this, but Ness' PSI Magnet can lag cancel if hit by absorb-able projectile.

Zero_ said:
Off the stage, both characters have few effective options of preventing the recovery of the other. However, saving the dB jump is a smart option as PKT spam can interrupt a smooth recovery. Being predictable with tether is also a nono, as your head is prone to dair. If you have no choice but to do this, meteor cancel with upB like your life depends on it. Which it does. Conversely, if Ness is offstage, PKT can be interrupted by either collision with a body or by contact with an attack, the safest of which is Plasma Whip.

If both characters are above stage level, there's really not much that can be done, I suppose. But if both are below stage level, I know both can be edge hogged.

Zero_ said:
The golden rule of offstage fighting is: BE CAREFUL AND BE WARY OF NESS DAIR.

I think this leads to a matchup slightly in ZSS favour, due to our options to restrict a Ness approach. Everything else is evenly contested.

Some people think it's 45:55, Ness or ZSS. I on the other hand can see this being 50:50. I've had my share of ZSS'. XD

@ Supermodel From Paris: ZSS's uair comes out very quick and Ness' dair has start up lag, but I'm not sure what'd happen if both hit. O__o Also, thanks for thinking Ness is cool. It's because of FadedImage who made me think ZSS is cool!

Though my brother uses her on occasions.

sasook · Aug 3, 2009

Uffe said:
If both characters are above stage level, there's really not much that can be done, I suppose. But if both are below stage level, I know both can be edge hogged.

Just make sure if we ever do get underneath the stage, punish our flip jump if you can, probably by dair spiking it after the invincibility frames have passed. We can footstool off edgehogging opponents.

ThreeSided · Aug 3, 2009

If you ever see Ness trying to recover off below the edge with his PKT, and he's in about the right place, walk-off-fair is ****. Not only do you have plenty of time, but both hits neutralize with PKT1. :3

Tien2500 · Aug 3, 2009

If Dair and Uair hit at the same time Ness goes up ZSS goes down.

ThreeSided · Aug 3, 2009

Tien2500 said:
If Dair and Uair hit at the same time Ness goes up ZSS goes down.

Really? I thought they'd just implode.

Uffe · Aug 3, 2009

Tien2500 said:
If Dair and Uair hit at the same time Ness goes up ZSS goes down.

I thought so. I remember that happening when I fought my brother. So basically they trade hits if both are out and make contact at the same time.

Zero · Aug 3, 2009

So the lesson to be learnt is, if you want to attack a dair, do it quickly. Abuse your 4 frame uair and your speedy vertical jump.

noradseven · Aug 3, 2009

Zero_ said:
So the lesson to be learnt is, if you want to attack a dair, do it quickly. Abuse your 4 frame uair and your speedy vertical jump.

or don't, attack it.

FUNKLAB · Aug 5, 2009

Offstage, I'd go for the gimp almost everytime. Like 3Sided said, walk-off Fair ***** and I find you can DSmash Ness offstage somewhat reliably if you can predict their second jump which usually isn't too hard.

ThreeSided · Aug 6, 2009

Something occurred to me yesterday. Would Usmash be more useful in this match up, since Uair is more dangerous due to risk of Dair spike?

noradseven · Aug 7, 2009

ThreeSided said:
Something occurred to me yesterday. Would Usmash be more useful in this match up, since Uair is more dangerous due to risk of Dair spike?

how is d-air spike dangerous on stage per tell, just press u-air then guard, everytime if u get hit you buffered tech good job if not ohh well.

Nefarious B · Aug 7, 2009

Can you really buffer a tech? I thought you had to input the tech within something like 10 frames of hitting it, similar to a meteor cancel.

ph00tbag · Aug 7, 2009

Nefarious B said:
Can you really buffer a tech? I thought you had to input the tech within something like 10 frames of hitting it, similar to a meteor cancel.

Teching in Brawl is weird. I read somewhere that it's based on distance rather than timing, which makes it harder the faster you're going, which I always found to be unfair, especially given that it's only useful at higher percents. In any event, I do believe you can buffer it. Technically, you could in Melee, as well.

noradseven · Aug 8, 2009

Nefarious B said:
Can you really buffer a tech? I thought you had to input the tech within something like 10 frames of hitting it, similar to a meteor cancel.

Really I just always hit it like the moment I got hit(or even sometimes before lol) and I teched, its kinda weird but it works consistantly so...

Nefarious B · Aug 8, 2009

noradseven said:
Really I just always hit it like the moment I got hit(or even sometimes before lol) and I teched, its kinda weird but it works consistantly so...

Yeah like I never thought as I'm getting knocked "oh i have to wait until i get the window lol" but I remember reading that somewhere. I thought it was within 10 frames of the the hit or something.

mountain_tiger · Aug 8, 2009

Nefarious B said:
Yeah like I never thought as I'm getting knocked "oh i have to wait until i get the window lol" but I remember reading that somewhere. I thought it was within 10 frames of the the hit or something.

You tech provided that you press the shield button within 20 frames of landing.

As for the Uair vs Dair thing, I don't like to do that, because if you trade hits then you'll be the one worse off most of the time. Flip Jumping then attacking during his ending lag works pretty well.

sasook · Aug 8, 2009

ph00tbag said:
Teching in Brawl is weird. I read somewhere that it's based on distance rather than timing

I haven't seen that, but I wouldn't doubt it. I'm not the best techer, but there have been times where I was sure my character should have teched, but didn't.

sasook · Aug 15, 2009

Bump. Double post.

Just found this for the MU: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agxVRQ9t3NQ

Nefarious B · Aug 15, 2009

sasook said:
Bump. Double post.

Just found this for the MU: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agxVRQ9t3NQ

He obviously didn't know the matchup so I guess you could watch this for some "what not to do". Jab is effective at close range obviously, and I think beating Ness requires you to get used to his huge second jump and floatiness, basically.

But I watched Warp play FOW at Genesis. I honestly can't remember who won but I didn't remember either side blowing the other out.

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