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Weekly Matchup Discussion - Snake

DtJ Hilt

Little Lizard
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Snake



Originally thought to be definitely in Olimar's favor, snake mains are beginning to find ways to deal with the Olimar matchup better, while we haven't changed it up enough to keep up. Without a doubt one of our campiest matchups, as well as a complicated one, so this matchup may take awhile to be fully discussed.

And with that said:

DISCUSS!
 

Noa.

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Zones in this matchup are incredibly important. Good and bad zones change the momentum of the matchup so quickly, so it's important to stay within good zones.

On to define good zones:

Camping distance; It's very difficult to judge this. Olimar tosses pikmin much faster than Snake can throw grenades. If the Snake is cooking grenades, it's they'll receive damage from the pikmin pummeling. If they don't cook the grenades, throw them back at Snake. While camping, it's uber important to be completely focused.

Snake will be looking for any patterns in your camping, so make sure to be prepared if Snake attempts a surprise DACUS or something. It's important to be aware of where the grenades are. Remember that there are two grenades and it takes roughly 3~4 seconds for them to blow up. Keep track of the grenades to keep safe. Remember that you can shield and spotdodge while holding grenades.

At high percents (140%), Snakes grenades will kill you so be extremely careful of grenades. It might be better to play at mid range, and pressuring Snake to the edge at high percents. Camping with Snake at high percents is very risky.

So that's camping. I'll post later about other aspects.

This matchup is slightly in Oli's favor imo. It used to be higher. If we come up with some new tactics to affect this matchup and swing it back more into our favor.
 

Fino

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Forward Smash.
Can we move to metaknight next?

Sorry, anyways... I don't do well wall texting out of thin air... I need substance and people being dumb@sses and saying stupid things to write efficiently... I guess that makes me moar of a campy olimar //wrist

EDIT: Also, that picture is win hilt XD

EDIT2: that reminds me... don't get box killed when recovering from below <.<


~Fino
 

RichBrown

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Ah, snake. I was undefeated against snake between november and july, I mercilessly beat down every single so cal snake. Then all of the sudden, I played razer at genesis and lost (I was playing AWFUL that day, 2nd game was last hit meh) and have lost to 3 different snakes since >.<

I used to autopilot the matchup, but then I forgot a lot of the stuff I was doing. But after playing with a handful different snakes recently, it's come back to me. And with that, here we go:

Playing snake is all about predicting. His dash attack and mortar slide are too hard to react to, so ya gotta learn their habits quick and predict accordingly. It's a great feeling when snake is far away from you, and then they try to DA/mortar, and all of the sudden you have them grabbed.

Grenades: Just throw pikmin at them to block them and try to neutralize that aspect of his game. I've found that unless you're 100% sure you can do something with them, don't ever try to pick them up. Lately the snakes I've been playing will throw grenades very low (the throw where he doesn't shielddrop the grenade and holds forward and throws) and that's actually pretty hard to block. You just want a wall of pikmin way, way out in front of you. Try to sneak those whites in, and as in most matchups use the purples to **** up his grenade/general spacing to try to lead to more.

Upclose: A lot of snakes I play will run up and make it look like they are gonna dash attack, and right when it looks like they will, they sidestep and then tilt. You pretty much don't want snake anywhere close to you. I'd recommend slightly charging your smashes for a fraction of a microsecond to throw off his timing. That way it's harder for snake to powershield/sidestep Fsmashes. Btw, fsmash is godly for spacing in this matchup.

If I get grabbed-dthrown, a lot of the time I won't do anything right away. Sometimes a wakeup-utilt works nicely, but if the snake has good timing you can forget about that. Sometimes I wait a half second before doing anything. From what I hear, EC snakes are good at ****** Olimar with dthrow. With that in mind, my advice is to not get ***** by it and you should be good.

When I get Snake offstage, if I can I jump right away into his recovery zone just to make him nervous. Sometimes it'll make him hesitant to use his cypher, and then he is really at your mercy. Get him off stage a lot, even if that sometimes means *gasp* wasting your KO throws.

When you're offstage, watch for a bair off the ledge when recovering low. Sometimes I'll put myself in perfect position to get hit by it, then whistle it. It puts me in a great spot because for that split second the snake player thinks he hit the bair, while I'm safely on the ledge. This usually leads to a spike or at least the snake having to repeatedly C4 himself to get back to the stage.

Other than that, just remember that snake can only have a maximum of 4 explosives he can "leave behind": 2 grenades, C4, and proximity mine. Just constantly watch him and keep track of where all 4 of these explosives are at all times, and be smart about it. Stay as grounded as possible, it's a very bad idea to be in the air in this matchup. Snake will try to force you in the air with grenades, so keep those away from you, because you basically either have to jump or sit in your shield and lose all your mobility if those things get close to you.

Oh and if there is a proximity mine around just throw a pikmin at it. I always chuckle to myself every time I throw a pikmin past the mine, and as it's walking back to me, minding it's own business, it gets ***** by this massive explosion XD

I'll add more if I think of anything.

GREAT picture, Hilt XDDD
 

Sky Pirate

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I've noticed that random Snakes use Ftilt immediately after Dthrow.

Also, am I correct in assuming that it's better to camp from the ground from mid-range since Snake can close the distance so quickly with DACUS?

One more thing, what causes random grenades to just stop in midair? It doesn't seem like something they can control, but it's a pain in the *** nonetheless.

EDIT: Seems they call it Grenade Stripping and they can also use it to force you to drop a grenade if you're holding one. Go figure.
 

Fino

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Double post, but hilt can combine them for me yesh ;D

Kind of important thing I guess.... I notice everyone does it. Don't be afraid of snakes grenades. Lots of snakes rely on you of just avoiding a spot where a grenade is. Watch how look he cooks the grenade and either go over and pick it up and throw it back (can be dangerous b/c of the shield drop he can drop nades right out of your hands) or just run over it and approach snake unscathed.


~Fino
 

Noa.

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In the snake matchup, it's absolutely positively important to stay out of Snake's ftlit range. There are only two situations were Olimar is in a huge disadvantage. The first is when Oli's above the stage and Snake's below. The second situation is being within Snake's ftilt. All other times during this matchup I feel the situation is even or in Oli's favor (for the most part).

To stay out of Snake's ftilt range, it is imperative that you space with fsmash and grabs. You need perfect spacing to be absolutely safe. Mixup between grabs and fsmashes, and do it quickly. If you see Snake starting to gain ground against you, run away and pivot grab. DO NOT GET INTO HIS FTILT RANGE! This is the rule I try to abide to most in this matchup. Snake's ftilt does ridiculous damage and it has so many setups. Being in the ftilt range for just a few seconds can radically change the way a match is going.

Unfortunately, you will be in his filt range sooner or later during the match. When you are, just run away. Dash or pivot grab. Do not stay in there unless you want to get KOed. Snake's ftilt. It's dangerous.

I recently read somewhere that you can SDI out of Snake's ftilt. When he hits you, SDI towards him and you should avoid any followups. I tried it myself and sometimes I SDIed it and sometimes I couldn't. But I suggest that people practice it. It does require good reactions, but it's still useful.
 
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I think it's 55:45 Olimar or 50:50 because he's dosen't outcamp here's why:

Posted by Gheb 01
This is all wrong.

Olimar doesn't outcamp Snake. Ha can force him to approach, yes but that =/= outcamping.
Outcamping means literally outcamping him aka giving the opponent no offensive options. This isn't the case AT ALL in this match-up.

If you want to see what outcamping means then you should play Falco vs Ike or King D3 vs Mario. Snake has enough options to approach Olimar - it's just not easy to do but once Snake is inside Olimar is ****ed. Not only can he dthrow **** him but he can also break Olimar's grab with his ftilt (no "grab armor") and **** him offstage (Grenade close to the ledge + Ledgehog = 0 options for Olimar). Olimar lacks the mobility or a quick gtfo move to keep Snale away once he's inside. Snake deals more damage and kills way better too so Snake has massive advantages all over the place.

And I'm not even talking about Snake's CP options. It's 5/5 or slightly in Snake's favour.
And this:
Posted by DanGR
I always thought the word "outcamp" meant "the one forcing an approach." In that sense, yes Olimar outcamps Snake, but it doesn't really matter when you think about it.

Firstly, if Olimar is blown up by any explosion past about 20%, Snake will have time to run in and either dash attack him (which can be whistled through, albeit) or get a grab in. We all know what happens when you grab an Olimar and either dthrow him, throw him offstage, or put him in the air. You might as well have an infinite, though you won't exactly kill him every time, per se.

Secondly, Snake can approach him decently well anyways. He can toss a grenade in and mixup between dash attacks, running spotdodges->attack, and fake approaches to get Olimar to pivotgrab all the way to the edge of the stage. Then you just toss grenades at him until he moves. If at any time you land a grab or dash attack in, or get him offstage or in the air, you should be able to rack massive damage.

Thirdly, it doesn't matter if he outcamps you if his projectiles won't kill you at high percents. Yours will. Just sit back and camp (or play really defensively) and force him to approach when you're within kill range.

For these reasons and what Gheb among various others have posted, I feel that Snake has an edge in the matchup. There's also the fact that the top Olimars are losing to the top Snakes. And, imo, I feel like a lot of the top Snake players don't know the matchup really well yet.
 

Hai Im Fearless

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This matchup can be very easy or extremely difficult.

I've found that those with practice against olimar can make this work for snake.

I beat afro in tournament, and in the same tournament I lost to radiX (2 of the best FL snakes).

I had the same thing happen, with "autopilot", and then losing hope in the matchup, but lately I've rediscovered it. You -MUST- camp properly. A lot of pivot grabbing and pivot side-b's are useful here, try not to get caught in the air too often.

One thing I'm constantly repeating in my head while playing this matchup is "Stay away, and don't get forward - tilted". Seems to work.

Against nades be smart, don't get exploded and if you throw pikmin correctly, he'll have to adjust his nade game, and punish him for it (without being too aggressive).
 

DanGR

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Tip: When you're hit far away and you know you'll live, watch snake as you DI and get back to the stage. It's a good time for them to plant their c4s and mine while you're distracted with recovering.

From what I hear, EC snakes are good at ****** Olimar with dthrow. With that in mind, my advice is to not get ***** by it and you should be good.
Very much siggable.
 

Noa.

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This matchup can be very easy or extremely difficult.

I've found that those with practice against olimar can make this work for snake.

I beat afro in tournament, and in the same tournament I lost to radiX (2 of the best FL snakes).

I had the same thing happen, with "autopilot", and then losing hope in the matchup, but lately I've rediscovered it. You -MUST- camp properly. A lot of pivot grabbing and pivot side-b's are useful here, try not to get caught in the air too often.

One thing I'm constantly repeating in my head while playing this matchup is "Stay away, and don't get forward - tilted". Seems to work.

Against nades be smart, don't get exploded and if you throw pikmin correctly, he'll have to adjust his nade game, and punish him for it (without being too aggressive).
When did you beat Afro? :crazy:
 

Noa.

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It's very important to airdogde Snake with dthrow. Regrabs are pretty easy to get on him. If you predict him airdogding into the ground, then a normal grab/pivotgrab will work. If he lands with an aerial, then a shieldgrab is good. You can often airchase Snake for quite a good while.

Albeit, there are some things going for Snake. If he drops with a grenade and you dthrow him, you'll blow up. In that case it's important to uthrow. He can wavebounce his grenades to mixup where he lands, but if you predict him correctly you can regrab him.

It's important to learn how to airchase in this matchup.
 

Fino

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It's very important to airdogde Snake with dthrow. Regrabs are pretty easy to get on him. If you predict him airdogding into the ground, then a normal grab/pivotgrab will work. If he lands with an aerial, then a shieldgrab is good. You can often airchase Snake for quite a good while.

Albeit, there are some things going for Snake. If he drops with a grenade and you dthrow him, you'll blow up. In that case it's important to uthrow. He can wavebounce his grenades to mixup where he lands, but if you predict him correctly you can regrab him.

It's important to learn how to airchase in this matchup.
Yeah, that nade pull is pretty shafty sometimes. One thing I try to do is punish snakes landings with a grab. If he's facing towards you, a dashing shield grab can work, but facing away I would just assume he's going to bair.
if he sees you dashing towards him, he'll probably try to nade pull the opposite direction you're moving, if he does this too late you can throw out a pivot grab, and it might hit him. if it misses... you're not in a really bad position, but I would recommend re-spacing yourself.


~Fino
 

MiniTroika

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Snakes are getting way better at handling this match-up. I've been having a harder time beating them and has been the only character I've lost to as Olimar consistently. BTW, I noticed a few things when playing DSF and Mojoe:

!) Snake will use jab to stop the pikmin throw. When timed right (a pretty big window) he can jab the pikmin throw before it even latches to deflect them, but not kill them. This is means less pikmin at your disposal and you can't pluck new ones.

2)Dash attack is way too good. He can abuse your floatiness with constant dash attacks.

3) Snakes that spam spot-dodge can throw players off. Please for the love of god, do not spam pivot grab. Use it wisely, because he can either f-tilt you out of the grab, spot-dodge, or wait for the grab to end just to dash attack and have it barely hit you. Any time the hit attacks you, olimar plops into the air and that means trouble.
 

MiniTroika

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Who the muck are you.... talking about a matchup ratio that's feeble who has absolutely no supporting evidence? Stop being lazy and actually discuss your perspective of the matchup boi. -_-

Commander?! What are you doing here?! :crazy::veryconfu
 

DtJ Hilt

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Alright, to try to get things more organized, let's start talking about different aspects of snake. His arsenal.

Forward Tilt
How do we avoid it? Is there any way to beat it out? When we're put in a tight spot and it's difficult to avoid it (such as if we're backed against the ledge) what would be our best options?

Discuss

Personally, I think this tilt is the main reason the matchup isn't 60:40 Olimar or worse >.>
 

Noa.

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In the snake matchup, it's absolutely positively important to stay out of Snake's ftlit range. There are only two situations were Olimar is in a huge disadvantage. The first is when Oli's above the stage and Snake's below. The second situation is being within Snake's ftilt. All other times during this matchup I feel the situation is even or in Oli's favor (for the most part).

To stay out of Snake's ftilt range, it is imperative that you space with fsmash and grabs. You need perfect spacing to be absolutely safe. Mixup between grabs and fsmashes, and do it quickly. If you see Snake starting to gain ground against you, run away and pivot grab. DO NOT GET INTO HIS FTILT RANGE! This is the rule I try to abide to most in this matchup. Snake's ftilt does ridiculous damage and it has so many setups. Being in the ftilt range for just a few seconds can radically change the way a match is going.

Unfortunately, you will be in his filt range sooner or later during the match. When you are, just run away. Dash or pivot grab. Do not stay in there unless you want to get KOed. Snake's ftilt. It's dangerous.

I recently read somewhere that you can SDI out of Snake's ftilt. When he hits you, SDI towards him and you should avoid any followups. I tried it myself and sometimes I SDIed it and sometimes I couldn't. But I suggest that people practice it. It does require good reactions, but it's still useful.
This is what I said about Snake's ftilt. >.>
 

Noa.

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Roll away. >.>

Seriously, being in Snake's ftilt range is the worst postition in this matchup. It's just too dangerous. His ftilt is 6 or 8 frames. Smashes and grabs are too slow. You can jab, but I still suggest running away.
 

DanGR

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The hurtbox on his ftilt comes out on frame 4; it's as fast as a regular jab.

>____>

edit: In a situation like that where you're at the edge of the stage and you've got such a horrible disadvantage at the moment, it's best to just minimize the damage that you're much more likely to get than not. Against Snake at the edge of the stage that means focusing on NOT getting grabbed and either...

1. running towards him and DIing the first hit of the expected ftilt behind him. If you DI it correctly, you'll be far enough behind him to actually punish it with an upsmash or something. You've got to get hit fairly close to him though- otherwise you won't be able to DI far enough. Start DIing up if you don't get behind him. The last thing you want is to DI the second hit downwards and die at an early percent.

2. short hopped pikmin throw->nair. If he focuses on the pikmin you might hit with the nair. *shrugs*

3. short hopped airdodge behind him and land with a nair. If you airdodge quickly enough, the hitbox on the nair will come out if you do it directly afterwards. This is probably what I'd recommend doing if your opponent hasn't seen it yet.

4. DPC or pluck canceled fsmash. Run away a little first. You don't wanna get ftilted out of shield. That or pivotgrab. <_<
 

professor mgw

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I really don't need to do that with E or F tier. But anyway thats off topic. Olimar has either AD or neutral over snake now.
 

Llumys

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You don't need to space and grab against low tier characters? I don't think you've played any good low-tier mains.

Anyway, we already agreed it was ~55-45. We're supposed to be discussing what to do in he match-up, and what to look out for, etc.
 
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