boss8
Smash Hero
mario isnt doomed...some people just dnt no how to recover...
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To this very long thing I will give a pretty quick reply. It's situational because:@feardragon: I'm sure most good TLs have a bomb in hand and are jumping at most times, so this is not as situational as people think. D-smash can shield poke, and we can shield the bomb ourselves so if we see you're expecting it we can just dodge/shield the bomb. It's not like we're always gonna be short hopping an ibomb by the ledge and taking 1-3% damage each miss.
This can be done any time we have a bomb and are slightly in the air (which is easily 50% of the match for most TLs). If you're waiting below us when we're recovering, then suddenly all opponents realize that if they're a couple frames off on an attack or if we predict their movements, it means VERY dire consequences. And it punishes landing better than any other move in TL's arsenal. And with TL's basic tether-hogging, a lot of characters are forced to go into their fall special just above stage on a distant recovery, so we can ledgehop into the BCDG. And we can force that recovery with the regular dsmash gimp below 20-30%.
If it makes it so you are no longer near us when we are falling down to the stage and have a bomb, then that's doing its job just as well. The attack itself may be situational, but it's very easy and quick to pull off. Knowing this, it should make opponents shy off us and give us more control. And if they don't we just kill them.
Well you guys go around proclaiming you can kill more than a third of the cast at 0%, ya you're going to have people trying to find flaws with your theory. We're not bashing YOU.Great....more bashing on us.
We cancel the airdodge with a zair, then shield the bomb. Either that or DI towards you and only get torched (since you're forced to use it before we land or eat the hookshot. actually you'll take the zair each way i think, it'll just trade hits), or if you don't space perfectly, DI away and shield the bomb. And, more importantly since most people don't seem to realize this,The Mr. Game & Watch solution to this:
See TL do that deal with the bomb- Fsmash. TL either A) Gets torched, B) Gets Bombed AND torched, or C) Gets Burned & Bombed if he air dodges. If G&W is on the ground, he's already set up to kill you. If he's not on the ground, he's not going to get hit by the Dsmash. Either way, you're about to be hit by a disjointed hitbox while you explode yourself.
Your words will be taken to heart for the information/video update... ^_^.I wouldn't say they are "Resistant," but I'd put them at 50% minimum, their side b is far more (vertically) useful and versatile than that.
- I also feel that many of the Doomed/Vulnerable have better chances of Of course, this is where you call in the cavalry and have all the character-specific pros elaborate on their recoveries.
- Marth can stall with Side B but it also kills his momentum, not useful for his recovery afaik (I'm no Marth expert, though). FAir helps, though.
- Yes, you can S/DI the first hit.
Deadly and cool. I like it.
*writes down notes for testing* Thank you.Wario is probably only "vulnerable" if he can't use bike.
The opponents were DI'ing up for the initial hit in the footage. Extensive DI'ing has not been done yet. But luckily, the video will be updated.Your recoveries in the video weren't good at all, and I'd like to see some testing with actual DI.
lol yea... it was a newb wario who was apparently paranoid of the d-air. I'll get better situations up in the update.This is definitely interesting...
but LOL at the Wario biking away from the stage. That's just stupid. It wouldn't happen.
Not quite. I meant that you cannot do it to airborne opponents at the tip. It'll just send them up. Then they'll FF and hit you or whatever.-As vietgeek said, you need to hit with the tip so that means it isn't just "as long as it hits"
Yeah, we wouldn't have to do that. You could just approach and we could do it.- TL has to commit to this and if he fails he's gonna get hit.
- Telepaths itself due to TL's playstyle. Why would a character that HAS to camp to succeed in vB suddenly want to charge at me with a bomb in hand? Regardless if he wants to do this gimp or not, it's fairly obvious he's trying something.
Almost all approaches in this game are done via aerials. Aerials in this game catch items, or hit them.Yeah, we wouldn't have to do that. You could just approach and we could do it.
I know. I miss him too.I love Viet. No homo. <3
...and characters who counterpick stages with water in it.The only situational thing about this seems to be the predictable bomb drop which looks pretty easy and quick to set up. After that the trajectory (also quite simple.).
This is mainly a threat to characters with ****ty recoveries.
Haha, couldn't have said it any better.Back on topic. Some things people need to get though their head. There are 3 categories for the AT:
1: Doomed- It's pretty much impossible to recover.
2: Vulnerable- There is a chance of recovery.
3: Resistant- You're pretty much guaranteed to recover.
Some people are complaining about the recoveries used in the video. If you are complaining about Lucas' or Ness' recovery, or anyone else's recovery that isn't DOOMED, just stop. You can still recover. It doesn't matter what recovery method you use. THINGS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE. This is because
THIS AT IS STILL IN IT'S INFANCY.
New discoveries will be made. Toon Links will learn how to do this with their eyes closed. Others will keep their eyes peeled and learn to avoid it. This is what will determine the fate of this AT.
As of right now, the AT is labeled SITUATIONAL.
Situational doesn't mean that it is impossible, or that it will never happen. Situational means that its possible, given the right circumstances. Like I said, Toon Links will learn how to increase and abuse the chances of these circumstances actually happening. Non TLs will learn how to close the gap. This AT is STILL DEVELOPING.
Instead of writing this AT off because it's situational, or because the video has inaccuracies, we should be focusing on how to use/avoid it. We can't assume it won't happen because the chances are slim. We have to assume that it can happen at any moment, and be prepared for it.
That isn't to say that it WILL happen at every opportunity. IT WON'T. Toon Links aren't stupid.
We can cancel the BCD at last minute. For one, we don't HAVE to iBomb and buffer the DSmash. We can just Z drop it, and if anything goes wrong, hit A to catch the bomb and do an aerial. We can shield the bomb, since we're supposed to hit the floor first anyways. We can Dair at last second and have the shockwave push our enemy back. If none of this happens, we could just take the 3% and fly away from our enemy. Taking the 3% for the most part is probably better than being vulnerable for half a second.
Also, the BCD method shown on the video isn't the only way of doing the AT. Not all Toon Links are going to be stupidly standing on the edge, waiting for our opponent to approach (or worse, stand perfectly still in front of us) and then BCD. We have methods of doing this from a short hop, full hop, double jump, recovering from the ledge, recovering from above, etc.
What I'm trying to get at here is that this is a growing AT. It needs more tests, and more practice, but IT HAS POTENTIAL. DON'T BE STUPID AND IGNORE IT.
Have a lovely day.
'Bout teams... that's what some of the other TL's and my bro and I are starting to wonder about. If anything, even against those 'resistant' it'll separate the opponents from each other (as the BCD practically swooshes the partner away with wind powers--windwaker... now i get it...lol) for a decent amount of time.i see this "situational" AT becoming very helpful in a teams match...
and i have to agree with demonictoonlink, this technique isnt impossible to land considering Tlinks have a bomb in hand 80% of the time.
rofl, it must be really awkward for the person recovering seeing their opponent being thrown at them as a projectile.
'Bout teams... that's what some of the other TL's and my bro and I are starting to wonder about. If anything, even against those 'resistant' it'll separate the opponents from each other (as the BCD practically swooshes the partner away with wind powers--windwaker... now i get it...lol) for a decent amount of time.
You could also have like TL send an opponent off and have the other partner seal the double jump and kill.
Even funnier applicatoin that we are fiddling with is a "windwaker catapault" where TL spirits a partner (resistant of course so the partner will live) clear across a stage (if there are platforms) or offstage with GREAT distance coverage and stupidly surprising speed. My brother Arc-thefallen- (toon link) hurls me (Pika) off the stage towards an unsuspecting recovering opponent, and the opponent may get a killing n-air close to the sideways death-extremity. It's so epicly hilarious seeing it done. ^_^
The same effect can be accomplished with a SH>bombpull>Quick-bomb-drop (where the bomb is z-released high enough so that it explodes and does not lie on the ground)>BCD. Towards the end of the video I had an example of the 1 Short-hopped version but in that one, there were 'flames' on teh opponent. The true, non-flame version can be done (however, the timing is very narrow).For Marth, whiffed dolphin slash is obvious (but rare) and probably a shielded tipper f-smash, get frame data on the fastest way to do this, and figure out what you can punish with this.
That said, figure out your OTHER OPTIONS FROM THAT POSITION, especially the ones that are countered differently and the choice between them cannot be reacted to, this will create a guessing game, and against the right characters if you guess right, you're either auto-killing or setting up for a gimp.
And most importantly, now you're exploring how to use the bomb to cancel your moves, what else can you do with this?