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Possible 1HKO on more than 1/4 of entire cast

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
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-The Bomb Cancelled D-smash 1Hit KO / Gimp-

Able to OHKO 1/4 of the cast at any percent, including 0%.

Simply put the Bomb Canceled Dsmash is performed by:
Short Hopping, dropping a bomb at the peak of the hop and instantly Dsmash on landing.

The bomb, if timed correctly, will explode and cancel the Dsmash midway. The opponent will be thrown a set distance horizontally at a downwards trajectory.

Performed at the edge the BCD launches the opponent offstage, creating a potential gimp, or in some cases a One Hit KO. (Toon Link must grab the edge at the right moment)

More information & Video made by Legendary Pikachu can be found at
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8390993&posted=1#post8390993


You're thoughts?
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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Overrated, situational, hard to perform 100%

Also some errors in your video.
Can falco recover with firebird?
Can fox recover with firefox?
Can zero recover with boost jump? even then, it might stall enough to grab the edge, or downB will be in range and footstool you on the ledge.

against ness hes shown jumping earlier the first time when he survives, which makes me doubt if the jumping was done with correct timing for all characters. I'm sorry :/
lucas didnt zap jump neither, or reverse downB.
wario didnt bike the right way, while not a significant advantage it is one, it isn't smart to post a video without showing maximum capabilities.
 

Red Arremer

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What about Lucas' Zap jump, that's not part of the video. Same with G&W's bucket brake. And that Wario is driving the bike into the other direction one time. And doesn't use the waft to recover, either.
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
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Also some errors in your video.
Can falco recover with firebird? No
Can fox recover with firefox? Possible
Can zero recover with boost jump? even then, it might stall enough to grab the edge, or downB will be in range and footstool you on the ledge. ZSS even with her Upb boost, would have to hit Toon Link to get him off the edge, even then ZSS would have to deal with TL's multiple tether grabbing for invincibility frames. Although Deinitly a possiblity, we'll retest.

against ness hes shown jumping earlier the first time when he survives, which makes me doubt if the jumping was done with correct timing for all characters. I'm sorry :/
lucas didnt zap jump neither, or reverse downB.
Lucas could recover with his horizontal glitches.

wario didnt bike the right way, while not a significant advantage it is one, it isn't smart to post a video without showing maximum capabilities. Yea, I'm not sure what he was doing with the Wario bike :( but IMO Wario should be able to survive relatively easy.

True, there are a few errors, mostly because the creators of the video didn't have complete knowledge of every characters recovery options. Edits will be done.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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Overrated, situational, hard to perform 100%

Also some errors in your video.
Can falco recover with firebird?
Can fox recover with firefox?
Can zero recover with boost jump? even then, it might stall enough to grab the edge, or downB will be in range and footstool you on the ledge.

against ness hes shown jumping earlier the first time when he survives, which makes me doubt if the jumping was done with correct timing for all characters. I'm sorry :/
lucas didnt zap jump neither, or reverse downB.
wario didnt bike the right way, while not a significant advantage it is one, it isn't smart to post a video without showing maximum capabilities.
Yea. I concur also. I am pretty sure Falco and Fox cannot fire recover if hit right.

As for the rest, I was kind of rushing some parts of the vid and I apologize for that. The vid and post will be updated eventually detailing all the information and comments that are made since the posting of the tech--including better recovery options. ZSS is seeing high chance of going down to vulnerable, and some of the percentages will change (particularly lucas).

What about Lucas' Zap jump, that's not part of the video. Same with G&W's bucket brake. And that Wario is driving the bike into the other direction one time. And doesn't use the waft to recover, either.
Precisely why he's (wario) in vulnerable category (Toon Link can chase the bike) and has the 2nd HIGHEST percent survival. REmember, the move is still in it's infancy (and will go through revisions) and then the percentages can reflect better results.

Remember, REALLY HIGH skill is not taken into account in the average survival rates. I am pretty sure ACHD can perfectly recover most of the time even tho diddy kong is thrown dangerously far.

Also, from a practical standpoint, my brother was busy with HW and I didn't really have another "expert performer" on hand for the rushed release of teh vid.... So i made do with the roomates i got and the footage I got. Don't fret, it will be updated when i have another good brawler in the room.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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You risk killing yourself against Lucario if he decides to curves his Extreme to either not recover, Double KO, or to either wall cling, and or curve above.

TL needs to predict how Lucario is going to exactly approach the stage or he risks killing himself.

This is an amazing find, even though it is situational and requires you to read your opponent extremely well in some cases.
 

Dark 3nergy

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What about Lucas' Zap jump, that's not part of the video. Same with G&W's bucket brake. And that Wario is driving the bike into the other direction one time. And doesn't use the waft to recover, either.
i didnt see pikachus skull bash being used, nor kirbys hammer

i also didnt see MK use Drill rush, Shuttle Loop, Dimensional cape

i also did not see ZSS using UP+B, Side+b



As for the rest, I was kind of rushing some parts of the vid and I apologize for that.
This is the reason why this video is bad. You'd do well to fix it, and when you make another one do not rush it, take your time and do the research. Because im pretty sure those that are most effected by this move have more options. Example: Ivysaur can use her razor leaf to DI towards the stage, and Marth can sword dance stall then recover.
 

Tien2500

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ZSS even with her Upb boost, would have to hit Toon Link to get him off the edge, even then ZSS would have to deal with TL's multiple tether grabbing for invincibility frames. Although Deinitly a possiblity, we'll retest.
Zero Suit Samus can hop off your head when you are edgehogging with her down B.
 

saviorslegacy

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Zero Suit Samus can hop off your head when you are edgehogging with her down B.
Yep, and then use over B.
ZSS's recovery is kinda hard IMO, but legit.

Sheik has enough speed to stay away from almost anything she wants. That includes obvious set ups.


Don't get me wrong, it is creative but I see it being like the DASC. Everyone will know about it and be like "K, avoid this" and it will no longer work cuz people will shield when they see you start the set up.
Also, can we SDI into the bomb?

The above is why I am starting to keep some Sheik stuff to myself.
 

phi1ny3

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You risk killing yourself against Lucario if he decides to curves his Extreme to either not recover, Double KO, or to either wall cling, and or curve above.

TL needs to predict how Lucario is going to exactly approach the stage or he risks killing himself.

This is an amazing find, even though it is situational and requires you to read your opponent extremely well in some cases.
What this guy said.
 

altairian

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It's interesting to me that someone makes a really solid video demonstrating an AT and how it can be followed up to gimp you, and people start poking holes "OH YOU DIDN'T DO THIS WITH X CHARACTER TO RECOVER"

So what?
If you know how to recover better than the video depicted, great! You can't expect him to be able to construct every possible variable and show it to you in a video. In fact, this is the only AT video I've ever seen that actually demonstrates how the AT affects EVERY character that it works on, not just a few. I give LDPK and whoever helped him tons of props for the time he spent to make his video as thorough as he possibly could.

Best AT video I've watched to date. Sure you didn't recover perfectly with every single character, but that shouldn't make a difference for the people that know how to recover in a better way in order to survive it.
 

LordshadowRagnarok

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"Lucas could recover with his horizontal glitches."

My Character: "Advanced Technique"
Anyone else's character "Glitch"
 

Kewkky

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It's interesting to me that someone makes a really solid video demonstrating an AT and how it can be followed up to gimp you, and people start poking holes "OH YOU DIDN'T DO THIS WITH X CHARACTER TO RECOVER"

So what?
If you know how to recover better than the video depicted, great! You can't expect him to be able to construct every possible variable and show it to you in a video. In fact, this is the only AT video I've ever seen that actually demonstrates how the AT affects EVERY character that it works on, not just a few. I give LDPK and whoever helped him tons of props for the time he spent to make his video as thorough as he possibly could.

Best AT video I've watched to date. Sure you didn't recover perfectly with every single character, but that shouldn't make a difference for the people that know how to recover in a better way in order to survive it.
If they do research, might as well do the WHOLE research. Just showing off an AT and leaving out actual recovery options will make it look fishy. Some characters that could be said "die" because of that tech could actually survive, and no one would know until even MORE research later is done, because the people who made it up didn't feel like exploring every possible hole in it... And yes, it would make a BIG difference, because like I said, knowing which characters can recover beforehand could actually save you a stock or two in an actual match if you were to fall for it.

I never really sit back on the ledges, most I can see this being used is while opponents get up from the ledge with getup attacks (TL airdodges to avoid the hit, drops bomb and dsmashes while opponent still has his animation happening)..
 

GunmasterLombardi

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Cool story bro. You may have picked on Flaco in the video but we still win the match up.:)

This would hardly help Toon Link cause any reasonable player would predict it when TL starts camping the ledge. To me you'd pull it off more often in the middle of a stage. You'd put your opponent in an awkward situation.
 

Radori Nighthawk

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Cool story bro. You may have picked on Flaco in the video but we still win the match up.:)

This would hardly help Toon Link cause any reasonable player would predict it when TL starts camping the ledge. To me you'd pull it off more often in the middle of a stage. You'd put your opponent in an awkward situation.
And THIS is why I didn't want everyone else to see it. ;)

Btw, you Falcos REALLY irk me. :ohwell: You and your.....lazorz......and your.....illusions.....:mad:
 

Legendary Pikachu

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*********************************
Concerns Raised
*********************************

TL needs to predict how Lucario is going to exactly approach the stage or he risks killing himself.

This is an amazing find, even though it is situational and requires you to read your opponent extremely well in some cases
.
i didnt see pikachus skull bash being used, nor kirbys hammer

i also didnt see MK use Drill rush, Shuttle Loop, Dimensional cape

i also did not see ZSS using UP+B, Side+b

Take your time and do the research. Because im pretty sure those that are most effected by this move have more options. Example: Ivysaur can use her razor leaf to DI towards the stage, and Marth can sword dance stall then recover.
Zero Suit Samus can hop off your head when you are edgehogging with her down B.
"Lucas could recover with his horizontal glitches."

My Character: "Advanced Technique"
Anyone else's character "Glitch"

For those in RED, reason why I didn't elaborate MK, kirby, and Pika is that I ALREADY stated that they are NOT affected by the move... why waste more time confirming that BCD doesn't work against those characters.

You guys are exactly right. I DID take that into account, so that's why all "those people" are under 'vulnerable'. I am aware that there are MANY cases that a character CAN recover... those under 'vulnerable' are all LOOSELY up there (they are NOT a 'guarenteed' kill by 'vulnerable's strict definition, so QUIT worrying). Percents are shown, but as is the case for every statistic, THERE IS ROOM FOR EXCEPTIONS--percents are loose estimations anyway but will be faithfully updated upon request with suggestion and documentation (not just 'lucas wavebounces', but WHERE, WHEN, how low is he doing it, will his 2nd jump reach edge/up-b safely?)

If anything, just take into heart that this move is a move that can be done at 0% damage to set up for a disadvantaged recovery--VERY far sideways and very low. Very few moves are like that in brawl and that is the MAIN focus of the video/techniques entirety. Imagine if your respective characters had a move that could do that... i am pretty sure you guys wouldn't pass the oppurtunity to EFFECTIVELY seal the kill and figure out what is guarenteed or not by your own skills/abilities.

BOTTOM LINE: There are people who can get easily killed, there are some who CAN survive (so you don't have to continuely bash the thread/me about survival oppurtunities for those who have been stated 'CAN SURVIVE!'.... youtube vids can only be like 10 mins (mine bordered 9:40--i can't put every single amazin' recovery in the footage).

My MAIN concern right now are those disputed under DOOMED. Inquiries involve ZSS, Mario, and Marth as of right now. I will test them for sure and update accordingly. I am aware and testing the concerns you guys brought up--I firmly agree that it is an injustice to post those 3 under doomed if indeed they are not. If indeed they cannot survive because of inability to sweetspot the edge, they will still remain under DOOMED.

The main argument for the 'doomed' category above is that your survival depends solely on toon link messing up the edgehog (whether he doesn't refresh it). The true factor for placement in vulnerable is the ability to LAND ONTO the stage (so even if TOON LINK edgehogs/tether-gimps PERFECTLY, the victim can STILL land on the stage). Because of this, by definition, Marth is still 'likely' to remain in doomed, and ZSS may be moved towards vulnerable (footstool will clearly land her on the stage).
 

Salem

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Hey...

I think Marth can use Forward-B after the jump to possibly get back on the stage. >_>
But obviously ZSS can get back to the stage, cause I just know. :p

Oh yeah, Toon Link can instead throw the bombs upwards making them impossible to see if he wanted to make it slightly unexepected and then attempt to land such a nice gimping move, but obviously doing that make it harder to time the D-smash if one uses it this way.
 

demonictoonlink

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NOOO!!!! WHY WOULD YOU POST THIS HERE?
We are the mother ****ing Tink boards, not the sheik or pikachu or some other bull****. We all know this is not a tactical subject. This should stay in Toon Links board... Why......
We are a decent, credible sub-forum. Please keep us that way.
 

Kewkky

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NOOO!!!! WHY WOULD YOU POST THIS HERE?
We are the mother ****ing Tink boards, not the sheik or pikachu or some other bull****. We all know this is not a tactical subject. This should stay in Toon Links board... Why......
We are a decent, credible sub-forum. Please keep us that way.
That's not a very nice thing to say.

Since it's a technique that can be done on any character (and practically kills a quarter of the roster at 0%), it's only fair that ALL the mains know about this AT. If you're aiming to get respect from other players, you should start as soon as possible... And leaving out something like this in the dark, that TL can do to every character, that could turn a match around even if situational, isn't really a respectable thing to do...

And it makes you look worse by cursing at the guy who was the one to post it. If I wanted to, I could've heard it from Sheikant or TWiNK and posted it here myself. You're not the Kirby/ZSS boards, so you would've had nothing to say to me then, right?
 

Crow!

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Link is listed as "Doomed". Have you considered whiplash (i.e. immeduately pulling out Zair)? Usually that protects us from strictly horizontal attacks that would otherwise gimp us.. provided we have fast enough reaction time, anyway.
 

Ray_Kalm

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This is highly overrated. The chances of landing this in a game are the same as landing Ike's FSmash. Good luck.
 

St. Viers

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Yo, all you people insulting this vid and the dude's idea--At least he's doing ****. It's wicked easy to insult other people doing work, but at least he's trying things out on his own, and not simply trying to regurgitate other people's stuff. Learn to be a less douchebag community, and maybe try and encourage people into thinking about new things, rather than being rude.

@kewkky--something is always better than nothing. He had a vid, shows it, and does his best to prmote it from there. That's more work than 90+% of people in these threads show. Even when it atomsk telling ppl about something new he realized, he doesn't go through the effort to make/post a vid. Lighten up.
 

Kewkky

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@kewkky--something is always better than nothing. He had a vid, shows it, and does his best to prmote it from there. That's more work than 90+% of people in these threads show. Even when it atomsk telling ppl about something new he realized, he doesn't go through the effort to make/post a vid. Lighten up.
DOn't worry, I wasn't saying it with the worst of intentions... It might have sounded like I was pissed at the OP, but I'm not. Just pointing out that it's better to investigate thoroughly and finish research before posting it, otherwise people will react the same way as some are doing now: ZSS's footstool jump, Marth's sideB stall, Mario's sideB stall, and other such complaints.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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[directed towards a blunt remark]

That's not a very nice thing to say.

And it makes you look worse by cursing at the guy who was the one to post it. If I wanted to, I could've heard it from Sheikant or TWiNK and posted it here myself. You're not the Kirby/ZSS boards, so you would've had nothing to say to me then, right?
Yo, all you people insulting this vid and the dude's idea--At least he's doing ****. It's wicked easy to insult other people doing work, but at least he's trying things out on his own, and not simply trying to regurgitate other people's stuff. Learn to be a less douchebag community, and maybe try and encourage people into thinking about new things, rather than being rude.

@kewkky--something is always better than nothing. He had a vid, shows it, and does his best to prmote it from there. That's more work than 90+% of people in these threads show. Even when it atomsk telling ppl about something new he realized, he doesn't go through the effort to make/post a vid. Lighten up.
Thank guys for the support--really picks me up on a bad day. :D

NOOO!!!! WHY WOULD YOU POST THIS HERE?
We are the mother ****ing Tink boards, not the sheik or pikachu or some other bull****. We all know this is not a tactical subject. This should stay in Toon Links board... Why......
We are a decent, credible sub-forum. Please keep us that way.
I also want to thank you other guys for the blunt critique, cuz' the discipline will make my future attempts, postings, and vids better.

I'd prefer the post stay (with a different, less provocative title tho) in tactical, even it if it recedes off of the first page, but I do understand what people mean by Tactical being a Universal-type library database. Feel free to close the post in tactical if you guys deem it inappropriate for the thread, I'll be happy either way. ^_^



Funny Edit: Actually, I, LDPK, who "volunteered" for the TL's to do the video and post, AM originally FROM the pikachu boards... LOL. I felt very passionate for the discovery and wanted to do the vid cuz i like the TL boards.
 

CRASHiC

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I don't mind posting character specific ATs in the tactile board.
It gives characters a chance to try to apply the basics of this tech to their own character.
For instance, I tried to mess around with Snake's grenades and getting it to cancel my animation, but the knock back is just too strong for it to work effectively.
I browse character boards all the time to look for techniques that might apply to the kind.
For instance, has anyone seen that the peach's are air releasing the MK on the moving platform of Smashville? No, but I went and researched that with DDD and found out we can easily Forward air characters and upsmash with this.
I also saw the Snake's were using the gernade to land with no lag and shield, so I tested with Lucario, found out it worked, and brought it to the attention of the Lucario board.
Testing all techs and seeing how they apply to your character is a very good thing to do.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'm not trying to bash the tech. I'm just not liking the % listed for said character I questioned. It is a statistic, but even then it seemed it was awfully low.

Still a good find and I hope more research goes into the tech.

Crashic was awesome for that tidbit.
 
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Well, like LDPK said, the AT is still at its infancy. The tech was only discovered a little less than a week ago, and it has made great progress. It started from a second way to do the Dsmash gimp. Then we learned it can be done at all percents due to it's constant knockback. Then we (or at least LDPK) tested the technique against ALL characters and organized them into 3 groups. Also, we found out this was a One Hit KO on everyone except Bowser in any stage with water. This AT certainly has potential. Alone, it can KO 1/3 of the cast in any level, on any percent. It can KO the entire cast -1 in any stage with water. And we got it all on video.

That's decent progress for less than a week.

However, I can't stress this enough that the AT is still in its infancy stage. Toon Link mains will keep on finding ways to use it against enemies. We will still try to poke holes in our enemies defense/offense and sneak the BCD in. We will still be researching this tech.

AT THE SAME TIME, everyone else will learn how to avoid it. I've already read about people saying that they will just think twice about getting near a TL shorthopping near the edge with a bomb in hand.

WHEN ISN'T A TL SHORT HOPPING WITH A BOMB IN HAND?

That question, my friends, is not for me to answer. It's for you non-TLs to figure out when you discuss Toon Link in your matchups. So yeah, we showed the world this new tech. I heard someone say this (I think it was Kewkky. Hi!), that although situational, it can turn the game around. Don't write this off yet. Write it off later after more tests are done.
 

demonictoonlink

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That's not a very nice thing to say.

Since it's a technique that can be done on any character (and practically kills a quarter of the roster at 0%), it's only fair that ALL the mains know about this AT. If you're aiming to get respect from other players, you should start as soon as possible... And leaving out something like this in the dark, that TL can do to every character, that could turn a match around even if situational, isn't really a respectable thing to do...

And it makes you look worse by cursing at the guy who was the one to post it. If I wanted to, I could've heard it from Sheikant or TWiNK and posted it here myself. You're not the Kirby/ZSS boards, so you would've had nothing to say to me then, right?
You completely misunderstood my very understandable post.
I'm saying it shouldn't be here because it isn't an issue meant for this board. I'm not saying we need to hide it from the other characters...That's ********...It's not even that good. Just tech it.
 

altairian

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How is a tech that affects over half the cast not a suitable subject for tactical discussion? No matter what you say, it sounds like you wanted to hide it as much as you could.

Or would you prefer using this "sure kill" on someone, only to be surprised by them recovering and slapping you off the stage for your insolence, because "this isn't an issue meant for this board"?
 

demonictoonlink

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Any of you who think I'm trying to hide it are idiots and you should feel slow.
TL's Dsmash can ALWAYS be teched. As the first hit is pulling you back, press down and shield. Even if you are near the edge, it's easy to tech.

It is only instant death for Ivysaur, Squirtle, Ike, Link, Sheik, Olimar, and possibly CF and Ganon. Other that Olimar, these MU's are easy for Tink. Why would I hide this? It MIGHT help a little against Olimar, but bombs don't really work in this MU.
That is all.
 

Sosuke

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You can't tech this if it's done from a certain distance from the ledge
a very large distance and enough to make teching not an issue due to the fact that you'd have to have them far enough to the side of the stage for this to have a desirable effect.
The setup is easy due to the scenario this technique requires. To make this simple, it's not something you "set up", it's something that just "happens".
Sort of like planting a bomb on a Battlefield when it's about to explode in order to cover aerial approaches. Which sounds situational, but lolol I do it all the time.

I've been looking for something like this for when someone closes the gap between their character and my TL. ._.
It always happens near the edge because there is no where to run, so I'd always enjoy larger stages for when I feel like camping. Now small stages are good too. ^_^
 
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