Possible 1HKO on more than 1/4 of entire cast

sasukebowser said:

You can't tech this if it's done from a certain distance from the ledge
a very large distance and enough to make teching not an issue due to the fact that you'd have to have them far enough to the side of the stage for this to have a desirable effect.
The setup is easy due to the scenario this technique requires. To make this simple, it's not something you "set up", it's something that just "happens".
Sort of like planting a bomb that's about to explode on a Battlefield when it's about to explode in order to cover aerial approaches. Which sounds situational, but lolol I do it all the time.

I've been looking for something like this for when someone closes the gap between their character and my TL. ._.
It always happens near the edge because there is no where to run, so I'd always enjoy larger stages for when I feel like camping. Now small stages are good too. ^_^

Click to expand...

... thus says the guy with 9000+ posts.

SasukeBowser approves this message. [and AT also... lol]

Bump* AUDIO DESYNC HAS BEEN FIXED. Plz watch again if you like the aesthetics of the video--this time with a better audio experience.

Still same old video with captions for future updates. The update vid will be up eventually--main change is thowing out the percent estimates.

Note to any SKILLED Mains: If any of you are so adamantly convinced that your character's potential is SO misrepresented in the video (and for that... I formally apologize), please send me a replay of you epicly recovering from the attack and another of you getting honestly follow-up-mindgamed-gimped by this attack. This would HIGHLY be appreciated and would expedite the Update vid process. Of course you will be credited on the page of the character. Let all of youtube witness that you have survived a 'seemingly' unsurvivable attack... lol. Thank you again.

I think this general idea is really cool and potentially really powerful, but you're probably limiting it by just looking for that (admittedly stylish) kill trick. Here's my question. If performed optimally, what is the "recovery time" for Toon Link? I mean, how long are you helpless (from the bomb hitstun) until you can airdodge? It doesn't look long at all; I'm thinking if you get smart with this you could do stuff like approach with it. If you hit, you get a good position and hurt them noticeably more than the bomb hurt you. If you fail (hit their shield with the dsmash first hit), you take fairly meager damage from your own bomb and are still in a good position. I think something like that is the direction that's good to go with this. It doesn't have to be just dsmash you go for with this either; I'd explore which of Toon Link's other moves can have similar uses.

Of course, Link too can cancel his own moves with a bomb blast (though his more powerful bombs probably make this worse than for Toon Link), and he may benefit from that line of thinking. I don't think anyone else can reliably interrupt their own moves with a self-damaging attack, but this could be a really cool direction for Link and Toon Link. I just really suggest exploring more than that one narrow application; you're looking at a general cancel to all of your moves which is 100% independent of your opponent's actions (and hence potentially very powerful).

Also, keeping stuff secret is a terrible idea, for those who have been suggesting it. If a trick is only useful when the opponent doesn't know about it, it's a bad trick. Good characters using good techniques can perform well even when the opponent understands them, and posting about your techniques in public will help bring in a lot of perspectives so you can look for wider applications and understand the counters that exist. The "metagame" of that trick advances, and assuming the trick is actually useful (which I suspect this one is), that only helps the mains of the character(s) who can perform it.

Amazing Ampharos said:

I think this general idea is really cool and potentially really powerful, but you're probably limiting it by just looking for that (admittedly stylish) kill trick. Here's my question. If performed optimally, what is the "recovery time" for Toon Link? I mean, how long are you helpless (from the bomb hitstun) until you can airdodge? It doesn't look long at all; I'm thinking if you get smart with this you could do stuff like approach with it. If you hit, you get a good position and hurt them noticeably more than the bomb hurt you. If you fail (hit their shield with the dsmash first hit), you take fairly meager damage from your own bomb and are still in a good position. I think something like that is the direction that's good to go with this. It doesn't have to be just dsmash you go for with this either; I'd explore which of Toon Link's other moves can have similar uses.

Of course, Link too can cancel his own moves with a bomb blast (though his more powerful bombs probably make this worse than for Toon Link), and he may benefit from that line of thinking. I don't think anyone else can reliably interrupt their own moves with a self-damaging attack, but this could be a really cool direction for Link and Toon Link. I just really suggest exploring more than that one narrow application; you're looking at a general cancel to all of your moves which is 100% independent of your opponent's actions (and hence potentially very powerful).

Also, keeping stuff secret is a terrible idea, for those who have been suggesting it. If a trick is only useful when the opponent doesn't know about it, it's a bad trick. Good characters using good techniques can perform well even when the opponent understands them, and posting about your techniques in public will help bring in a lot of perspectives so you can look for wider applications and understand the counters that exist. The "metagame" of that trick advances, and assuming the trick is actually useful (which I suspect this one is), that only helps the mains of the character(s) who can perform it.

Click to expand...

Very good insight indeed. I am goin' to add ^that^ to the original post.

Fox_is_openly_Deceptive also mentioned to me about the safe-cancelling d-smash.

Thank you both.

You can also hit the 1 hit dsmash out of the run turning around animation (youll slide a bit and possibly just hit with one hit).

some german tink does it sometimes

Ugg said:

Err.. you mean "DACIT?"

Click to expand...

I'm renaming ATs, and you'll like it!

The only character this looks pretty viable against is marth. Bait an upB, and punish with kill.

Schweet.

If nothing else this puts opponents in a really bad position while leaving TL in a really good one.

GJ TL mains. Can't wait to see this in tourney play.

One thing people don't understand is that you do'nt have to aproach to land this. You can simple wait for the opponent to approach and use a bomb.
At any rate, now that Tink can gimp, I'm picking him up

I'm serious. You can always tech it. SDI Down and tech. At the tip of the attack...No matter how close to the ledge you get...
They can tech before they pass tink's body.

Get a vid of teching it.

Fine. I'll get my friend teching it. Regardless, it is common sense. You can tech tink's Dsmash regular before you get hit by the second part. This changes nothing.

sasukebowser said:

Get a vid of teching it.

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Have my babies.

Take that guy that said you could tech it :O.

See above post...
You've never seen someone tech his Dsmash?
If you tech the first part, it's the same.
I really don't feel like making the video, but I will still do it under one condition:
If I do it, I get the title: Proved sasukebowser Wrong
Also, sasukebowser has to have the title: Was Proved Wrong By DTL
You have to keep it for at least one week.

sasukebowser said:

you Can't Tech This If It's Done From A Certain Distance From The Ledge
a Very Large Distance And Enough To Make Teching Not An Issue Due To The Fact That You'd Have To Have Them Far Enough To The Side Of The Stage For This To Have A Desirable Effect.

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^

Also, hell no.

this is just the kind of thing I love seeing, something new. Even if its not for a character I use I love seeing advancements in the metagame(unless it leads to no more IC infinites QQ)

I'm sure this has been said before, but this is pretty situational. As for teching this, I'm sure it's possible since you drag to the other side and what not. What I'm wondering is, can you DI upward to make a better recover?

Uffe said:

I'm sure this has been said before, but this is pretty situational. As for teching this, I'm sure it's possible since you drag to the other side and what not. What I'm wondering is, can you DI upward to make a better recover?

Click to expand...

While we haven't tried smash DI'ing down (DTL's working on that), DI'ing up is a NO GO. We tried well-timed double-quarter-up (tapjumpoff)+up-c and still got almost nowhere upwards for some reason. Of course, someone w/ hacking-benchmarking codes could test this better than we can. I'll find my friend who can do that (the one who confirmed pika's 0>death and chaingrabs,etc....).

Once thing I just noticed more is that this move can early screw people who normally momentum cancel by f-air or b-air as a reflex (depends on the lag of the aerial). Ironically, the move sends the opponent off backwards compared to a normal hit (marth has to c-stick away from stage to f-air momentum cancel). I was just thinking if an unsuspecting opponent gets hit, SOMETIMES he may just input the wrong momentum cancelling aerial (DK's f-air instead of b-air... BIG MISTAKE) because of reflexes and become screwed. Funny also since for most of the character, the moves spirits the victim 'offscreen' sometimes so its harder to discern your facing direction (if you don't face TL that often).

Legendary Pikachu said:

While we haven't tried smash DI'ing down (DTL's working on that), DI'ing up is a NO GO. We tried well-timed double-quarter-up (tapjumpoff)+up-c and still got almost nowhere upwards for some reason. Of course, someone w/ hacking-benchmarking codes could test this better than we can. I'll find my friend who can do that (the one who confirmed pika's 0>death and chaingrabs,etc....).

Once thing I just noticed more is that this move can early screw people who normally momentum cancel by f-air or b-air as a reflex (depends on the lag of the aerial). Ironically, the move sends the opponent off backwards compared to a normal hit (marth has to c-stick away from stage to f-air momentum cancel). I was just thinking if an unsuspecting opponent gets hit, SOMETIMES he may just input the wrong momentum cancelling aerial (DK's f-air instead of b-air... BIG MISTAKE) because of reflexes and become screwed. Funny also since for most of the character, the moves spirits the victim 'offscreen' sometimes so its harder to discern your facing direction (if you don't face TL that often).

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You can die with 50% from a kirby f-smash as Mario if you di wrong :O.

But yeah, i liked this trick, its hella situational, but if you can make that situation happen alot, then you are going to be good about it .

I love being a Pikachu Board Member....

I love being a resident scientist for the Pika's

I love discovering 2 and improvising 3 other thunder AT's for pika.

I love having connections with K-prime.

K Prime said:

I have some ledge frames for Pikachu. Right when he grabs the ledge he has 34 frames of invincibility and can let go on frame 14. I don't know if it's the same for every character, but I hope that helps.

Edit: Okay, I just tested this with every character and coincidentally Pikachu has the least ledge grab lag and everyone else has the same. Tethers also have less ledge grab lag. These are all just normal ledge grabs. I did not test with up b, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Pikachu
Invincibility Frames - 34
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 12
Ledge Drop Frame - 14

Everyone else
Invincibility Frames - 46
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 24
Ledge Drop Frame - 26

Tethers
Invincibility Frames - 23
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 1
Ledge Drop Frame - 3

Extra Info
-You can only re-grab the ledge after 30 frames from letting go. For tethers it's like 1 frame.
-You cannot buffer a ledge drop. So you have to be frame perfect on the ledge drop if you want to take advantage of every invincibility frame.
-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.
-The maximum amount of invincibility frames on ledge drop is 21 frames for everyone.

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§teel said:

B Moves:
Note: The (x)>> indicates when the dancing blade may continue into another attack of the combo

Forward b 1
Hit: 4-7
End: 30
(15) >>

Dolphin Slash
Invincible frames: 1-5
Hit: 5-11
Landing Lag: 34
Shield Stun: 13
I know, I'm amazing.

Click to expand...

So....

TOON LINK
When he hugs he's got: 46 invincible frames
- 26 lag frames from grabbing ledge = ~21 invincibility frames left after letting go of ledge
(1 FRAME that the ledge is un-occupied because tethers can only claim ledge again after 1 frame from letting go)

So...

35 frames invincible initial hogging--->DROP (still invincible): 1 frame free ledge--->Re-tether: 12 more hogging frames (invincible)--->DROP (still invincible): 1 frame free ledge--->Re-tether: 12 more hogging frames (invincible)--->DROP (still invincible): 1 frame free ledge--->Re-tether: 12 more hogging frames (invincible)

= 71 frames of ledge being occupied with only three 1-frame chances for Marth/Mario to claim ledge (2 actually since by the time the 3rd chance rolls around, Mario and Marth are too low to sweetspot anymore...).

^For the example above, I trimmed each hogging duration by a full 10 frames each--what that means is that a total of '71' hogging frames can be acheived if the TL is NOT perfect. If the TL re-tether's PERFECTLY its a whopping 111 frames of invincible edgehogging with only two 1-frame windows for sweetspotting at ANY one point in time!

Lets look at Marth.

If TL hugs at the same time as marth side-b's, then TL's 46 invincibile hogging frames will outlast side-b (30 frames) and an immediate dolphin hitbox (11 frames). Marth can delay his up-b by 5 frames and TL's invincibility will still outlast Marths up-b. If Toon Link re-tethers at the end of side-b, Marth could delay up-b by 10 frames and TL's invincibility will still outlast dolphin.

What if TL's timing is off... what if TL doen't grab the ledge at the SAME time as Marth's Side-B?!
ANSWER: TL only lags for 26 + 1 free ledge frames before he can retether.... IF TL hugs ledge @ the same time as marth side-b's, TL can barely refresh hogging frames (BEFORE MARTH's Side-B CAN EVEN FINISH) and secure edge for another full 21 frames with a window for error of ~3 frames (can re-tether anytime between frame 28-30 of side-b's duration)! If Toon Link performs the initial hug earlier, then TL can ALWAYS easily re-tether before marth's side-b finishes (and has a good window to time re-tether towards the end of marth side-b). Since marth's dolphin hitbox lasts from frames 5-11, If TL's re-tether is done between frames 21-30 of side-b (30 frames total), TL's invincibility will outlast an immediate up-b by 1-10 frames! If the re-tether is done on frame 25, even if marth delay's the up-b by 5 frames after side-b, TL's invincibility will out last up-b. If the re-tether is done right at the 'finish' of side-b (frame 30), even if marth delays the dolphin 10 frames after side-b finishes, TL will still be invincible.

What if Marth delays up-b:
Since dolphin's hitbox starts at frame 5 and can hurt OoS at point blank its safe to assume that at frame 5, marth is at the bottom of his ascension (cannot sweetspot just yet on frame 5 of dolphin). TL has 3 tether-grablag-frames and 1 free ledge frame = 4 frames total required to re-tether. The re-tether is faster than dolphin sweetspotting the ledge, and TL is still invincible for the entirety of the re-tether which means:


All Toon Link has to do is (1)hug the ledge, (2)watches for side-b, (3)re-tethers near the finish of side-b, and (4)re-tethers again slightly before or at the moment marth begins the dolphin slice, and it is IMPOSSIBLE for Marth to hit Toon Link or sweetspot the ledge during ANY part of TL's edgehogging.

Now for Mario....

bobson said:

Super Jump Punch
Hit: 3-14
End: 40-ish
Invincible: 3-6
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 3
Landing lag: 30
Advantage: Ha ha ha.

Cape
Hit: 12
End: 35
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 3
Advantage: -20

Click to expand...

As stated above, all toon link has to do is sweetspot the ledge slightly before mario capes or at the same time mario performs side-b to be able to re-tether before the cape finishes. Then TL just times the re-tether towards the end of the cape animation, but this time does not have to worry about Mario delaying the up-b after the side-b (cause mario will already be too low if he did indeed delay his up-b enough). So toon link just re-tethers at the end of the cape animation (mario would have to delay his up-b more than 7 frames after the cape animation finishes before TL's invincibility wears off[21 ledge invincibility frames > 14 frames of Mario's up-b hitbox]) and the gimp is done. If done right, it is also impossible for mario to sweetspot the ledge.


As I was emphasizing before, the MAIN factor in these 2 ever becoming 'vulnerable' is the fact of whether they can land ON TOP OF the stage and not whether they CAN STALL to survive. TL's invincibility far outlasts all of the stalling moves AND both up-b's. Furthermore, the only one to two 1-frame unoccupied-ledge chances for mario and marth to sweetspot (when TL detatches for a re-tether) almost occur when they can't even up-b yet.

So even now, I am still looking for replays of marth's and mario's landing ON the stage. Then i'll be happy to place them in 'vulnerable.'

It's "like one frame".

Trying to argue something as definitive as you just have with something that only looks like a GUESS...

Marth's db1 ends on 29, doesn't make much difference to that write up though.

Of course things as precise as this incurs issues.

Marth has a grab release to spike at the ledge on Meta Knight, killing him at like 40% or so. Marth has a 3 frame window to input a dair, and 1-4 frames leeway on dashing out of the grab release (there's no buffering available on this either).
Yet this is one of the hardest, unknown and unused in tournament techniques Marth has.

Anyway, not putting this technique down, it's very bad for Marth if he gets hit by it.

So if Marth and Mario are still doomed with their stalling? Or are they like 5% vulnerable, or what?

TWiNKatGC said:

So if Marth and Mario are still doomed with their stalling? Or are they like 5% vulnerable, or what?

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I mean, it greatly depends on the TL and Marth sorta. If TL hugs, there's at least 5~10 frames of invincibility so marth must delay past those frames to live (and only get 1 frame's worth of edge-claiming chance by calculations point of view). TL however, can choose to drop and re-tether (requires only 1 frame and is invincible during all of it) at anywhere during the 5~10 frame window to make any delaying past 10 frames worthless (refreshes for ~21 more frames after re-tether).

I'd say if Toon Link re-tethers right before end of side-b (1st re-tether), and re-tethers again (2nd re-tether) and HOLDS the ledge right before/or at the same time Marth does up-b, then it is impossible for marth to recover. The ONLY opening is if toon link mis-guesses the dolphin slice and Marth executes dolphin BEFORE the second re-tether. So that's like 100% death if TL knows how to hog and see side-b or if marth inputs an immediate up-b after side-b, and about 90% death (1/10 frame chances) (someone who takes statistics 101 could probably give a better probability) if the Toon Link accidentily re-tethers after the execution of up-b.

Honestly, I don't know what to say about that O_O. Marth and Mario are close to true hybrids (marth being a slightly better surviver) of 'can be 100% gimped by TL' and if the TL doesn't edgehog in the right way, 90% gimped. 5~10 frames are also within limits of top metagame reaction time--with the 1 frame-long re-tether being too fast for record human reaction time to compensate (marth/mario would have to predict the 1 frame-long retether and having the up-b clip the ledge ON THAT EXACT FRAME and TL is invincible through all of it). Sort of like wario = 100 dead without bike/waft but close to 100% alive if has bike O_O.....

Shaya said:

Marth's db1 ends on 29, doesn't make much difference to that write up though.

Of course things as precise as this incurs issues.

Marth has a grab release to spike at the ledge on Meta Knight, killing him at like 40% or so. Marth has a 3 frame window to input a dair, and 1-4 frames leeway on dashing out of the grab release (there's no buffering available on this either).
Yet this is one of the hardest, unknown and unused in tournament techniques Marth has.

Anyway, not putting this technique down, it's very bad for Marth if he gets hit by it.

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Very good insight here! Way to represent, Shaya the Marth! :D

Though the timing of the grab-release scenario above also requires the opponent to see the release (reaction time ~8 frames average top level player) and the release could occur earlier or later. TL's re-tether scenario works around the bad position marth is already in, where there's this point of either MUST side-b or up-b and TL can sorta gauge that more accurately ahead of time rather than a grab-release. Maybe... I'm just thinking randomly here.

Can't some characters use some b moves to move a little bit up?

Like Fox could down B or DK could side B, or would they move too far away from the stage?

And it's ridiculous to say DK has 5 % at surviving, because you need to dair him. If you really do it though, DK could just move back and you kill yourself. The dair thing is really risky. So if you need it to have a sure KO the best it could be is 50/50. The DK would kill himself if he will stop moving back to the stage, but Toon Link will also die, and before DK (if it's the last stock this is important). And if you don't risk it and the DK hopes you don't do it he can get back on the stage.

So I'd say it's about 50/50.

Luigi player said:

Can't some characters use some b moves to move a little bit up?

Like Fox could down B or DK could side B, or would they move too far away from the stage?

And it's ridiculous to say DK has 5 % at surviving, because you need to dair him. If you really do it though, DK could just move back and you kill yourself. The dair thing is really risky. So if you need it to have a sure KO the best it could be is 50/50. The DK would kill himself if he will stop moving back to the stage, but Toon Link will also die, and before DK (if it's the last stock this is important). And if you don't risk it and the DK hopes you don't do it he can get back on the stage.

So I'd say it's about 50/50.

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I cannot stress this enough... that the PERCENTS ARE LIKELY GOING TO BE THROWN OUT (said somewhere else in the posts). It's okay to ask tho about DK. As for the reason why i initially put up the 5% survival rate, since it was originally a TL tutorial video and was intended to appease the Toon Link's, the percents were the estimated percents of an AVERAGE victim (DK in this case) vs. a PERFECT Toon Link--so you could see the percent as a ABSOLUTE MINIMUM chance for DK to survive even if TL is normally PERFECT. (so all DK's should still not give up)

Again. the estimations are still estimations and some are wrong (i admit) and that's why they are likely to be thrown out or polled for in the next update.

The blue up there... I actually don't know if those things up there incur a momentum cancelling penalty or not. If it does, WHAT DIRECTION? that'll something interesting to try, tho fox i have been researching is 'vulnerable now' from this technique. If the penalty is sideways, then that may still just be as bad or WORSE for DK/fox.

You touch the ground right?
Can't tether characters just pull out their tether and grab the ledge?