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Lucario vs. Bowser (26) Export

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Bowser



Matchup:

60:40

General info:
Well, let's see...
BOWSAH

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
Bowser has some cool tricks under the shell, here's just a few that are most noticeable:
-Whirling Fortress: You know that annoying upB ooS option that Marth and MK have? Well, Bowser's got arguably one of the best, due to it's almost entirely safe nature and nasty damage it will do (it'll even kill at higher percents). This thing will be pulled out on many an occasion Bowser is planted firmly onto the ground, and if he's shielding, you better change your spacing while landing from the air, because crossups, fakeouts, all of them don't work very well on a bowser who knows how to flip it on and scuttle away. Luckily, Lucario doesn't have to approach, which helps reduce the impact of this move.
Flying Slam: Also known as the "klaw" etc., it is an aerial grab. It also has autocancel frames on most of it, and can be used to mix up his approach options. In a MU where there's a projectile involved though, some of those options tend to be limited, but you still have to watch out about getting too close to a bouncing boozer, some of his moves will surprise you. A habit that will change in this MU though is shielding aerial approaches. If you aren't fast on your feet with that shield and you don't retreat or do something, he will nab you out of your shield and make you eat 18% or so, which gets you that much closer to getting high in percentage.
-Grab: If Bowser gets a grab on you, you'll be in for some pain unless you jump break. For those who don't know, Bowser basically gets 10 or so frames of advantage out of a ground break, which means unless you're DK, you'll be eating either jab, Flying slam, ftilt, or dtilt, even another regrab if he feels he wants to risk another set. jab, flying slam, and ftilt will usually be used to get some fast damage, or get you off stage for some edgeguarding if he feels he can do stuff, while ground release -> dtilt is an insured killer against lucario in the 130's, even with good DI. Frankly, you'll want to avoid the grab, and if you do get grabbed, try for a jump break. Also, sometimes bowser will try to do ground release -> jab -> sideB, but this is escapable.
-fair: This move is pretty bad news for lucario in early percentages, and is another reason lucario SHOULD NOT APPROACH Bowser. This move actually has more range than marth's fair, except bowser's hurtbox gets extended. That being said, this move is going to make any offensive attempts go sour, because the trade off in percent is horrendous regardless of most of lucario's horizontally oriented aerials (3%-7% vs. 13% is awful, do the math). He'll also try this move for edge guarding, but it won't gimp kill until later percents.
Ftilt: Another defensive move, acts as a landing catcher for pretty much ANY landing within it's range. Be aware it can cancel AS, and it its range is pretty deceptive. Don't use your options predictably when bowser is in a situation to use this move, he'll pretty much win it every time. It's almost a frame trap in its own right.
Bair: This move will be more of a gimp move, if you see it coming, it's way easier to move away and dair stall and try moving back towards the stage than to try to trick it with AD or something, since he has to commit to this move for the most part.
Utilt: another one of bowser's moves ooS that works pretty well, it seems to pale compared to dair even though it has some good range, due to speed and dair's properties. Still a move to watch out for.
Uair: A "hypnokill" move, this move is a nasty early stock ender if you aren't thinking right. This move will only sometimes be use after upB connects or utilt, but if you see it, don't AD, try dair stalling or double jumping, it's windup is deceptive, and it will kill in the 60-70 range reliably if it hits. Be smart within the 2nd jump area above bowser's head.
flame: Mostly used for edgeguarding, this move will hurt if you let him set up for it, although AS will start going through it at relatively mid/high percents uncharged, so that's not too much to worry about. My friend doesn't use flame as much as some other bowsers, but it's going to be a good edgeguard tool vs. a recovery with a more predictable windup. Play smart, and if he does use this onstage (he will occasionally), you'll need to DI away from bowser to get out.
fsmash, usmash: It's surprising that these will work, I wouldn't worry too much if you are fast enough, but be aware that fsmash will sometimes be used as an option if you hang on the edge for too long (dumb player habit to begin with anyway), and you also will want to be aware that usmash has very low endlag, so act quick if you want to punish. They are deceptively easier to pull off than you would think so beware of what he can do with them.




What to avoid:
I might post more later...

Anyway, here is the Bowser grab release stuff.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617

Jump Release:
Nothing

Ground Release:
Regrab
Forward B
Ftilt
Dtilt
Jab

Basically, if you get grabbed, mash jump to try and jump release so Bowser can't do anything to you with his grab release stuff.
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
upB can really debilitate an offensive game, as can most of bowser's options. He's a very solid defensive character, and with that said is going to try to outspace and punish you when you punish, since plan A's "I'm going to hope to get a percent lead and make you try to rush me" isn't going to work because of AS camping.
He also has enough options to surprise and get an early kill. You pretty much have to have a zero margin of error and know the MU to work out against bowser.
Bowser's aerial game also shuts down lucario's pretty badly when directly pitted against each other, but lucario's air game will have plenty of other chances to shine in other scenarios, and if the lucario is smart, playing "dogfight" will be a very rare instance in the MU.
I feel lucario's air game is still much better when combined with other tools in this MU, but Bowser fair is not challengable, except with dair possibly. Punish fair when you can though, you'll get a nice amount of damage with strings.





How to win:
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
Camp: AS may not be the best for getting damage in, but it does what it needs to in a MU like this, pressure and force approaching. AS is actually pretty good in this MU, because Bowser's only real options besides the occasional fanning is shielding, because against a projectile like AS, having an already meh AD and spotdodge/roll is pretty bad to have. Be smart though with camping, you'll only get maybe 2-4 shots at most before he's within SH distance, which is when you'll need to get a little more complicated.
Grab: Yes, we has some pathetic grab range, but you need to bait some of the moves bowser has that has some icky lag, and set up for aerial strings. Grab also helps discourage shielding, but beware since Whirling Fortress can bust grabbing if mistimed, since it comes out faster. Grabs also deal some more tangible damage, and combined with aerials (dthrow pretty much works as a setup regardless of DI due to Bowser's ginormous hurtbox) will get you some damage.
Edgeguarding and gimping: Bowser will not get gimped very often, but take note that fair -> dair strings offstage are pretty much guaranteed because of bowser's hurtbox, and dair if spaced correctly WILL beat upB. I've racked lots of damage on using dair alone offstage when bowser was forced to commit to recovering below. AS is another great tool offstage, it can force some patterns to come out to punish offstage. Also, fsmash if well spaced covers nearly every option bowser has when he's on the ledge, misspace it though, and he can ledgehop klaw you. Having a big hurtbox like bowser's hurts considering fsmash's cone pretty much kills most options anyways.
Spacing fsmash is actually pretty important too on stage, with the sole exception of PS, bowser can do nearly nothing to a tipped fsmash.
I would also recommend again DO NOT APPROACH. Bowser is an ugly snapping turtle, and will gnaw your face off in angry protest if you try it. He's built to be a defensive character, and you're going to have to hop around like Steve Erwin around a croc to get around him in this MU, "sheilas" and "lil' beauties" aside. Don't approach.
In all seriousness, was that really me saying that last paragraph? Wow, corny beyond belief.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
We force approaching, which bowser can't do very well, especially against a projectile.
I also feel we have better options offstage, and will get less damage/killed offstage as opposed to bowser.
We also have good anti-air/punishing string options, which help loads with a character with meh approaching like bowser.





Helpful tips:
I got just a helpful tip against bowser.

Sometimes when a bowser is knocked high, he will use the down b ledge cancel to safely get back to the stage. Uair and bair can hit him out, but it can be hard to space it right. Instead, just jump up high as if you are going to hit him, but don't. As you jump up the camera will follow both you and bowser preventing him from seeing the stage. When he uses the down b, he might miss the stage and suicide (or land on stage so you can punish with dair).
Obviously this is not very significant, but it can give you a free stock.
Usmash will sometimes hit him pretty well lol, probably because downB as an attack is only a last resort "surprise" move, which will A: If you can spot it, will give you time for usmash, and B: A lot of the time, usmash's residue will hit bowser, due to its low priority. Ledge cancelled down b is another story though :D





Stages:
for bowser i like FD cuz it gives lots of space to force approches and avoid the **** shield grabs. Battlefield has a lower ceiling so i wouldn't recommend going there. For cp go frigate since bowser doesn't have very good vertical recovery. The slopes can screw up his short hop fair and koopa claw options. Bowser can live for a very long time on japes and mansion, but at least on mansion we get the more utilt and combo potential.
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
I frankly like FD/YI (if YI is a neutral in your area) as neutrals, with smashvillle on the side, PS1 might make for a good neutral too, provided you don't get backed into a wall. BF might be worst, because of Bowser's good klaw hop options and better platform control, plus it mitigates our camping. For CP's, I'd have to say Frigate, Japes , and PS1 are some good ones, and Norfair is one I would avoid.

I frankly believe in 60:40, maybe 55:45 in our advantage at highest levels of play, unfortunately most people don't know the MU at all and do dumb things, Bowser likes dumb things.
I used to believe it was far more 50:50, but that was when people way back when discussed, dare I say it, MINDGAMES in a MU thread.




Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

 

G-Beast

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
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agreed phil..

in short bowser has alot of vulnerable spots, but he is by absolutely no means to be underestimated... doing so will make you be in for a bad day..
 

Vionce

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
326
Location
San Diego, CA
Bowser is slower and is a big target for Lucario's Aura balls.

60:35
nice math... 60 + 35 = 95? lol

Anyway, with Bowser's size comes increased grab range. If the bowser is constantly in your face right where AS is punishable on block and you can't get him to attack then it can be very difficult. It's not super hard to powershield AS as well. Bowser will be able to grab almost everything you throw at him. It's more of a who can be more defensive match. Obviously you can switch it up with ground dodges and grabs to stop bowser from standing in front of you and shielding, but the aggressor in this match I feel will probably lose.

I think this is closer to 55:45 lucario adv.
 

X-Elipzo-X

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
7
My belief is that this could even become a 70:30, Lucario Advantage.

Bowser is quite big and heavy, which makes him easy to chaingrab, either with up throw or ForcePalm. Aura Sphere is also easy to target with because of Bowser. Bowser is also slow, but does alot of damage. So, if he does hit you with damage, hes still avoidable, making a Lucario user able to build up Aura power, and outspeed Bowser, making him a dowble threat in means of power and speed, opposed to a slower character. Bowser has attacks with lag, so shield then grabs are also a weakspot for bowser users, which Lucario can use with ease. This being said, my thoughts will never be entirely true, seeing as every player has a different amout of experience and skill.
 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
5,729
Location
Las Vegas
My belief is that this could even become a 70:30, Lucario Advantage.

Bowser is quite big and heavy, which makes him easy to chaingrab, either with up throw or ForcePalm. Aura Sphere is also easy to target with because of Bowser. Bowser is also slow, but does alot of damage. So, if he does hit you with damage, hes still avoidable, making a Lucario user able to build up Aura power, and outspeed Bowser, making him a dowble threat in means of power and speed, opposed to a slower character. Bowser has attacks with lag, so shield then grabs are also a weakspot for bowser users, which Lucario can use with ease. This being said, my thoughts will never be entirely true, seeing as every player has a different amout of experience and skill.
What exactly is slow about Bowser again?

Start up lag? Smashes? Moves he'll never use?

He's faster than us in the air. He's faster than us on the ground. His ranged moves are faster than ours and usually outrange ours. He has the Klaw. He has one of if not the best Out of Shield options in the game. His status as the heaviest character in Brawl makes him an absolute TERROR to kill outright or if he kills you first, which he can. There is no way in hell Lucario has 70:30 advantage on Bowser. 60:40 is the absolute most we can ever have, and honestly it's probably more along the lines of 55:45 or even. :\


Also, Phil. It's Steve Irwin.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
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in my SCIENCE! lab
Lucario shouldn't be afraid of the klaw, if he starts getting into that, use BAS. Most of his kill moves are only if the opponent doesn't know what he's doing in the MU, although I'll admit I get smashed several times lol. Something that's really scary though is GR -> dtilt, although if you air release out of it, you'll be able to live to annoy him with high percent lucario, which is scary.
His hurtbox is problematic when on the ledge, fsmash will cover nearly all of his options if timed right.
Dair, fair, and AS hurt his recovering ability.
Don't approach, that's how you make this game closer than it should be. It's definitely between 55:45/60:40, but Bowser having kill power is a misconception once you know when he'll use certain moves.
Kevin plays me too much, so he punishes me for the dumbest stuff :p, but I can say that Lucario can be problematic for bowser if used properly.

I would say it's a far-cry from 65:35 or worst, people who say that don't know how good bowser can get in the right hands, he has some of the best defensive capabilities in the game. Fortress is imo better than DS/Shuttle Loop even, as it does tons more damage, is safer, and can still kill pretty well.
ftilt wrecks landing, it's a frame trap.
Seriously though, if you use your walls properly, you can make it 60:40 on even stages (his CPs can really wreck you, especially BF).

We outspeed him in the air, but he usuall outranges us/outdamages in bulk, so we have to be extra careful. One bad mistake imo is worst than doing it against Ike or possibly snake in some scenarios if bowser reads you.
 

Rayku

Smash Lord
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Feb 21, 2004
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I hate this matchup because it's one of two that you're absolutely forced to camp
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
^Yes.

Unfortunately though, Bowser doesn't have a good approach against most camp games, and he can't use klaw options because AS shuts them down. That and unfortunately due to his ginormous hurtbox, you can control the match very well with AS.
 
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