Out of order, new matchup thread coming soon!

KRDsonic · Sep 14, 2009

Ishieymoro said:
Brinstar really is a good stage for Wolf overall. We should tell DMG to play there once as Wolf and intelligently spam jumpshines/bairs, see how it turns out.

I could ask him at HOBO 19 to do that to me in a friendly, him as Wolf, and me as D3, and see if he'll agree.

By the way, out of Battlefield and Smashville, which do you guys think Wolf would do better on? I'm asking about those two since I plan to always start sets with Wolf, and if I fight a D3, they'll strike Yoshi's, I'll strike, FD, they'll strike PS1, then I have to choose between BF and Smashville.

Currently, I go Smashville because I like having that moving platform that I can jump to when I need a quick break, whereas on BF, if I'm at the edge I don't have any hope of getting to the platform, but what do you guys think?

Ishiey · Sep 14, 2009

BF <3

Jumpshine > sideB onto top platform is fun stuff. And platforms overall, safe(r) landings for FH fairs if you so desire. SV is a fun stage, but there's nothing I really have there that's useful besides my epic taunt.

KRDsonic · Sep 14, 2009

That brings me to another question now that I think about it, can D3 infinite wolf on the platform on smashville when it's going away from the direction he's facing? If not then it could be the only area on a still stage that we can't be infinited on...

Sesshomuronay · Sep 14, 2009

I probably need to practice at brinstar more. From what I've heard it seems like a useful stage for various matchups.

Ishiey · Sep 14, 2009

Wolf can get infinited on the platforms :<

That's what I like about lylat. You can sideB straight onto the platforms from the ground (might try to find something useful from this), FH retreating fair onto the platforms with ease, the tilt messes up chaingrabbing more than it messes with fair, and I believe they're too small for the infinite (need to check it though).

Coney · Sep 15, 2009

Sesshomuronay said:
Would jungle japes or brinstar be good vs dedede?

both might be good for you. japes has a high ceiling and y'all mostly kill with dsmash, right? we kill with utilt...and DDD dies much quicker off the sides than he does off the top, so a level with small side blasts and a high ceiling would be awwwwright.

brinstar is...okay, i guess. it's got a pretty big ceiling too, but it depends on the DDD you're fighting. if you're fighting a DDD that really enjoys air combat (like me!), you're in for a big surprise.

that said, you could prolly just run away from DDD on brinstar. we're very, very slow in the air.

if the DDD is a soulless infinite hound, it's probably...i dunno, 65-35? 70-30? no clue how practical the infinite is, since i don't do them. if the DDD is a proper gentleman, like me, i'd say it's more 60-40. tough, but doable.

MidnightAsaph · Sep 15, 2009

Ishieymoro said:
Wolf can get infinited on the platforms :<

That's what I like about lylat. You can sideB straight onto the platforms from the ground (might try to find something useful from this)

I got Combo using the flash once on the platform of Battlefield. We could probably get a similar result from Lylat.

Seagull Joe · Sep 15, 2009

coney said:
both might be good for you. japes has a high ceiling and y'all mostly kill with dsmash, right? we kill with utilt...and DDD dies much quicker off the sides than he does off the top, so a level with small side blasts and a high ceiling would be awwwwright.

brinstar is...okay, i guess. it's got a pretty big ceiling too, but it depends on the DDD you're fighting. if you're fighting a DDD that really enjoys air combat (like me!), you're in for a big surprise.

that said, you could prolly just run away from DDD on brinstar. we're very, very slow in the air.

if the DDD is a soulless infinite hound, it's probably...i dunno, 65-35? 70-30? no clue how practical the infinite is, since i don't do them. if the DDD is a proper gentleman, like me, i'd say it's more 60-40. tough, but doable.

Too bad no where in md/va is japes legal unless it's chu's tourney and he decides he wants it after losing a round. :laugh:

Coney · Sep 15, 2009

Seagull Man said:
Too bad no where in md/va is japes legal unless it's chu's tourney and he decides he wants it after losing a round.

hahahah...i think it's usually legal most places though...

picking japes instinctively might cause DDD to pick their secondary though...which might be bad news. japes is one of peach's best too~~

BMX · Sep 15, 2009

Unless it's Peach v MK on Japes.

MidnightAsaph · Sep 16, 2009

Guys, one thing I forgot to mention; I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned this particularly.

The name of the game with DDD, or at least a strategy you could utilize, would be to pressure his shield. MAKE him shield as much as possible. If his shield gets smaller, you don't have to space as much (because you hit him while he's shielding). That way, you can pursue him with bairs more loosely. Blastering him a lot might work, but it depends how well you get around his Doos and Dees.

Once you get that shield weakened, shield grabbing for DDD won't be safe, and that's something he has to abuse.

Comments?

EDIT: I know this is painfully obvious, but at the same time, it's extremely important.

Oh, btw, I'm going to say the MU is 75:25 DDD.

Gangsta_inc · Sep 16, 2009

coney said:
hahahah...i think it's usually legal most places though...

picking japes instinctively might cause DDD to pick their secondary though...which might be bad news. japes is one of peach's best too~~

: D

that's right and we know what peaches do on DK stages :D

Coney · Sep 17, 2009

rockguy1234 said:
Unless it's Peach v MK on Japes.

u gay, ben. u gay.

i dunno, i thought it'd work! i thought the slaps might kill early! but peach needs to turnip camp to beat him, and japes isn't really a turnip camping level so lol i dunno. shoulda stayed DDD @_@

Asaph said:
Guys, one thing I forgot to mention; I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned this particularly.

The name of the game with DDD, or at least a strategy you could utilize, would be to pressure his shield. MAKE him shield as much as possible. If his shield gets smaller, you don't have to space as much (because you hit him while he's shielding). That way, you can pursue him with bairs more loosely. Blastering him a lot might work, but it depends how well you get around his Doos and Dees.

for the record, this sounds like an incredibly bad idea. i have little experience in the wolf matchup so maybe i'm wrong, and pressuring our shield is definitely a good idea if you're smart about it, but to call it "the name of the game" is, i think, looking at it all wrong. the name of the game in this matchup is spacing, which (in turn) is effected by shield pressure, and your base strategy is pressuring my shield, i'm simply going to be more patient about my grabs. and if you pressure my shield too much i'm just gonna back up and let it recharge.

and if you try to rush me down while i'm regaining my shield, well...good luck!

shieldgrabs are incredibly dangerous, but killing our shield seems to me to be the wrong way to avoid them. like i said, little experience, but rushing down DDD with a character who hates getting grabbed seems counterintuitive.

MidnightAsaph · Sep 17, 2009

coney said:
for the record, this sounds like an incredibly bad idea. i have little experience in the wolf matchup so maybe i'm wrong, and pressuring our shield is definitely a good idea if you're smart about it, but to call it "the name of the game" is, i think, looking at it all wrong. the name of the game in this matchup is spacing, which (in turn) is effected by shield pressure, and your base strategy is pressuring my shield, i'm simply going to be more patient about my grabs. and if you pressure my shield too much i'm just gonna back up and let it recharge.

and if you try to rush me down while i'm regaining my shield, well...good luck!

shieldgrabs are incredibly dangerous, but killing our shield seems to me to be the wrong way to avoid them. like i said, little experience, but rushing down DDD with a character who hates getting grabbed seems counterintuitive.

More theory. I'll try it against a good DDD when I have the chance. Btw, people meeting up at Combo's Friday. AIM me if you want to come by.

It's something I noticed in DDD matches. Once the DDD loses some of its bearings on the shield, they back off to recharge. If you're backing off, you're obviously vulnerable, you're obviously avoiding conflict. We must initiate what they're scared of. Hell, maybe we'll break their shield if they're idiots/unlucky.

I don't know if I said, but once that shield is lowered, it's easier for us to place bears, and thus, it's the best time to attack. That doesn't mean bair him while being directly in his face, you should still try to space. Point is, DDD can't grab if he's getting spanked with feet. Throwing Doos and Dees does nothing. We'll run through them. He'll probably be forced to wall of pain or something. We can blaster him in the air or choose an aerial to work best against whatever aerial he chooses to use, depends on his position in the air.

Holes in theory?

Coney · Sep 17, 2009

Asaph said:
More theory. I'll try it against a good DDD when I have the chance. Btw, people meeting up at Combo's Friday. AIM me if you want to come by.

It's something I noticed in DDD matches. Once the DDD loses some of its bearings on the shield, they back off to recharge. If you're backing off, you're obviously vulnerable, you're obviously avoiding conflict. We must initiate what they're scared of. Hell, maybe we'll break their shield if they're idiots/unlucky.

I don't know if I said, but once that shield is lowered, it's easier for us to place bears, and thus, it's the best time to attack. That doesn't mean bair him while being directly in his face, you should still try to space. Point is, DDD can't grab if he's getting spanked with feet. Throwing Doos and Dees does nothing. We'll run through them. He'll probably be forced to wall of pain or something. We can blaster him in the air or choose an aerial to work best against whatever aerial he chooses to use, depends on his position in the air.

Holes in theory?

yeah, this is all just theorycrafting so it's not really worth much. but if i were in such a situation, with a wolf continually just bairing me in the face and perfectly spacing it so i couldn't shieldgrab...i'd just do a 360 and walk away. maybe take to the air for a bit to let my shield come back. my multiple jumps would protect me for long enough, and i could come down and potentially start the whole process again.

and just because a DDD is backing off doesn't mean he's vulnerable; quite the contrary, i back off constantly to bait a b-canceled inhale, pivot grab, that kinda stuff. a DDD without a shield is weakened, sure, but still very dangerous. measure your approach options.

i'd really like to come by, but don't think i can...but my crew is actually doing something friday night too i think, if you wanna we could mesh together and create a super-duper smashfest.

MidnightAsaph · Sep 17, 2009

coney said:
yeah, this is all just theorycrafting so it's not really worth much. but if i were in such a situation, with a wolf continually just bairing me in the face and perfectly spacing it so i couldn't shieldgrab...i'd just do a 360 and walk away. maybe take to the air for a bit to let my shield come back. my multiple jumps would protect me for long enough, and i could come down and potentially start the whole process again.

and just because a DDD is backing off doesn't mean he's vulnerable; quite the contrary, i back off constantly to bait a b-canceled inhale, pivot grab, that kinda stuff. a DDD without a shield is weakened, sure, but still very dangerous. measure your approach options.

i'd really like to come by, but don't think i can...but my crew is actually doing something friday night too i think, if you wanna we could mesh together and create a super-duper smashfest.

Don't you mean 180 or did I read wrong?

Because then you'd be walking towards us.

This is all theorycraft, but I'll continue with it.

Personally, if I saw a DDD inflating himself to the heaven's, I'd shoot him down like a clay disk. He can't mess with Wolf's projectiles unless with his own projectiles, and even then he'd just fall back down with lag from using said projectile, in which I would punish using...depends on positions, but you get the point.

And when I say backing off, I literally mean running towards the other edge and camping. Something similar to that. I don't mean moving back an inch.

And yes, this is going to require more than words. So I'll stop there. Reply by all means, but I'm done for now.

Discuss in AIM?

Ishiey · Sep 17, 2009

Guys, I have a fail-safe idea.

1: go to battlefield
2: platform camp and be a *****
3: win
4: get ***** someplace
5: go to the next best stage you know of for platform camping (maybe YI?)
6: platform camp and be a *****
7: win the set

It's failproof, except not really. But platform camping on BF is seriously 4x supereffective, +stab and a 6x special attack boost.

MidnightAsaph · Sep 17, 2009

Ishieymoro said:
Guys, I have a fail-safe idea. It's failproof, except not really.

Sigged. lol

Meh... I don't know what to say. I'd feel gay doing it. You'd just hit him when he's open and run away.

Ishiey · Sep 17, 2009

Asaph said:
Sigged. lol

Meh... I don't know what to say. I'd feel gay doing it. You'd just hit him when he's open and run away.

Well, the thing is, if you're not gay, he will be and cg > dtilt you all over the place. And playing gay is probably the most effective way to win at this game.

I'm just saying that if you really want to win and everything else isn't working, go with BF and platform camp. Personally, I find it enjoyable lol.

Sesshomuronay · Sep 17, 2009

Whenever I play dedede I usually try to run away and spam. It seems to be the best way to fight him.

MidnightAsaph · Sep 17, 2009

Ishieymoro said:
Well, the thing is, if you're not gay, he will be and cg > dtilt you all over the place. And playing gay is probably the most effective way to win at this game.

I'm just saying that if you really want to win and everything else isn't working, go with BF and platform camp. Personally, I find it enjoyable lol.

Yeah, I'd have to do that. But if it comes time that I'm super pro, I'mma act like stupid and be blatantly offensive.

So there's been quite a lot of talk. Would we all like to get down to the final MU?

Sesshomuronay · Sep 18, 2009

Asaph said:
Yeah, I'd have to do that. But if it comes time that I'm super pro, I'mma act like stupid and be blatantly offensive.

So there's been quite a lot of talk. Would we all like to get down to the final MU?

I guess. So what does everyone agree with? 65-35? 70-30?

MidnightAsaph · Sep 18, 2009

65-35 is what I'm going for personally.

Palpi · Sep 18, 2009

Ish, is that what you do against Atomsk? lol

26th! 1 week away!

Ishiey · Sep 18, 2009

Yes indeed, when I want to win >__> But Atomsk probably wouldn't go D3 against me anyways, because I suck vs MK and his Wario can do that chaingrab .____.

I told you, I can't make it because of stupid marching band

There's seriously no way I can go...

For the final matchup, it seems like the majority of us put it at 65:35, about. So I guess I'm up for that.

Sesshomuronay · Sep 24, 2009

Anyone have anything left to add to this? I'll probably get around to editing it sometime today.

Sesshomuronay · Sep 25, 2009

Its marth time.

_Kain_ · Sep 25, 2009

Wolf's Bair > Marth's Fair which is key since u can outspace him. Blaster is good here n there to discombobulate them and frustrate them. I'm not sure but is Fair > than Marth's fair? someone test that out. Punish any of his missed smashes with a fsmash. Light so he's pretty easy to kill. All i have to say is Wolf's aerial game beats his

Marth can CG wolf at low percents i think between 0-12 or sumthin? Anyways space and avoid it its nothin dat bad either. His Dancing Blade is prolly his best move in this fight its bothersome. He can also Up B out of many things. He can gimp your recovery or so ive heard? Never had it happen to me unless i was being stupid. Its a match up of spacing both can space really well but if Wolf's is done correctly he can outspace Marth. He shudnt be killing u very soon unless he catches u with a tipper.

I say 50-50 or 55-45 Wolf. Better player wins this fight. I dont know what to ban on Marth his best stage is Battlefield but i like Battlefield so yea. Mayb Stages where he can wall lock you with his dtilt but then again why wud u b messin around by a wall against Marth?

Sesshomuronay · Sep 25, 2009

Try to avoid getting grabbed at low percents as he can like chaingrab or sometimes get a tipper f-smash on you which can hurt.

Spacing is key in this matchup. Marths attacks are fairly disjointed so watchout for that, but try to make good use of wolfs good aerial mobility to beat his attacks. Jumpshine is decent I find if he is like trying to F-air you. You can force him to approach with your blaster so try to remember that, approaching marth can be annoying sometimes.

Also try to di out of any attack chains he might try. Stuff like his forward B, F-air walls where he tries to hit you multiple times and follow it up with stuff like U-tilt. If you can di his forward B well enough you can like shine out of it I think.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 25, 2009

Retreating fair + bair messes up his spacing...Juggle him whenever you can...You can CP him with Halberd and even RC (no joke)...ban Lylat Cruise ...watch out for his DB it's very good punishing move but also punishable itself... 5/5 imo

MidnightAsaph · Sep 25, 2009

Well, I'm going to a smashfest tonight, so maybe I'll use it to brush up on Marth. ; )

In the meantime, I'd like to ask some questions.

Is Marth's fair faster?

If so, I think our aerial game as far as spacing won't be so easy. It's like Peach's fair versus Wolf's bair. She has more range, but it's slower. Now, our bair isn't slow, but if Marth's fair is faster by a pretty good margin, the game is no longer spacing, it's using your move before your opponent does. With that in mind, even if the moves are nearly equal in speed, Wolf doesn't have such a great margin of range on it. This means that it's a game of predicting the user of the first move and punishing with yours.

I've found that rushing into a Marth is pretty stupid, because your moves are similar, his being, probably faster. He can use two fairs in one short hop (but his falling speed is different, which is why I asked).

Be sure to predict the Marth, and know that he can sneak a fair into a bair assault and ruin a potential chain (confirm?).

Other than that, we also have a projectile. Keep that in mind. Also, someone should figure out if his fair eats our laser. I would assume it doesn't, but who the hell knows.

Note the CG everyone mentioned. Avoid it and use damage from Marth in the beginning so he doesn't get that free damage. In fact, if someone would be as so kind, figure out the specifics of the CG. Or if you already know, please do tell.

Offstage game. There is no offstage game. Stay on the stage. Marth's fair is beast for saying "i'm fast, gtfo" and slapping you if you try to gimp him. If I were you, I'd try and laser him (because I'm an idiot), offstage, and then grab and edge hog him. I think if you don't have enough time to get off and on to time the edgehog well, you can lightstep and immediately flash again to grab the ledge. Not confirmed, so I'll see if it's possible later today. Generally, you tend not to try and gimp Marth, because that UpB is pretty ghey, but if you time it, the prince will fall to Hell.

Shine is win in this MU. It tells Marth and his fair to gtfo.

Jumpshine to bair is combo. Yes? No? Not sure if that was confirmed.

This MU is clearly 50.5:49.5

EDIT: Oh, DI those dancing blades. What is best punish? Will fsmash reach, or is laser the best bet?

JCav · Sep 25, 2009

wolfs fair has morerange than marths but is slower

marth can f throw wolf 3 times> f smash tipper 31%

marth can f throw dair IF you dont buffer a shine, if marth does this, you die.

i get punished by marth if my jumpshine hits a shield because the marth will just full hop fair and ill get hit

marth can up b outta your up b,this really sucks

dancing blade off stage ***** wolf, db1>db1> will drag you down and theres nothing you can do

marth can gimpthe hell outta wolf

Seagull Joe · Sep 25, 2009

Asaph said:
Well, I'm going to a smashfest tonight, so maybe I'll use it to brush up on Marth. ; )

In the meantime, I'd like to ask some questions.

Is Marth's fair faster?

If so, I think our aerial game as far as spacing won't be so easy. It's like Peach's fair versus Wolf's bair. She has more range, but it's slower. Now, our bair isn't slow, but if Marth's fair is faster by a pretty good margin, the game is no longer spacing, it's using your move before your opponent does. With that in mind, even if the moves are nearly equal in speed, Wolf doesn't have such a great margin of range on it. This means that it's a game of predicting the user of the first move and punishing with yours.

I've found that rushing into a Marth is pretty stupid, because your moves are similar, his being, probably faster. He can use two fairs in one short hop (but his falling speed is different, which is why I asked).

Be sure to predict the Marth, and know that he can sneak a fair into a bair assault and ruin a potential chain (confirm?).

Other than that, we also have a projectile. Keep that in mind. Also, someone should figure out if his fair eats our laser. I would assume it doesn't, but who the hell knows.

Note the CG everyone mentioned. Avoid it and use damage from Marth in the beginning so he doesn't get that free damage. In fact, if someone would be as so kind, figure out the specifics of the CG. Or if you already know, please do tell.

Offstage game. There is no offstage game. Stay on the stage. Marth's fair is beast for saying "i'm fast, gtfo" and slapping you if you try to gimp him. If I were you, I'd try and laser him (because I'm an idiot), offstage, and then grab and edge hog him. I think if you don't have enough time to get off and on to time the edgehog well, you can lightstep and immediately flash again to grab the ledge. Not confirmed, so I'll see if it's possible later today. Generally, you tend not to try and gimp Marth, because that UpB is pretty ghey, but if you time it, the prince will fall to Hell.

Shine is win in this MU. It tells Marth and his fair to gtfo.

Jumpshine to bair is combo. Yes? No? Not sure if that was confirmed.

This MU is clearly 50.5:49.5

EDIT: Oh, DI those dancing blades. What is best punish? Will fsmash reach, or is laser the best bet?

The only marths in md/va are neo and kadaj who are top marths. Beating them would show you know how to beat marth, but kadaj is sova and neo probably won't come to it. I doubt you could beat neo asaph

, but I can't either

. I guess you could play meep, but his marth isn't too good.

Marth can do 3 cgs into a tippered fsmash or dair spike. He can 0-death wolf. Avoid dancing blade because that is what he uses mainly to knock off a wolf. Also watch out for the up b oos, but I guess you can't see it coming unless they are standing still in which you should be lasering.

Mu to me is 45-55 marth's favor.

MidnightAsaph · Sep 25, 2009

Seagull Man said:
The only marths in md/va are neo and kadaj who are top marths. Beating them would show you know how to beat marth, but kadaj is sova and neo probably won't come to it. I doubt you could beat neo asaph , but I can't either. I guess you could play meep, but his marth isn't too good.

Even if the opponent is a top Marth and does play a little side marth, you can still gain some experience from the match, for example, the game between the bair and fair and how it works.

No, I can't beat Neo.

I know. Cya later tonight, anyway.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 25, 2009

Marth can not 0-death Wolf.

tekkie · Sep 25, 2009

fair is a bizzitch, CGs are a bizzitch, and you can die at like 90% from a tipper.

45-55 at the very least

Ishiey · Sep 25, 2009

JCav said:
wolfs fair has morerange than marths but is slower

dancing blade off stage ***** wolf, db1>db1> will drag you down and theres nothing you can do

marth can gimpthe hell outta wolf

How many frames is marth's fair? And can't you buffer a jumpshine to get out of DB1 > DB1? I highly doubt it's a true combo, and DJ activates on frame 1... no idea when the next chance for input is after that though.

NeedMoarGoyf · Sep 26, 2009

Fair hits on frames 4 to 8 for Marth. I don't know about Wolf's Fair...but it seems Marth's is faster, if only by a little.
Some Marths will probably play for the grab if you're at 0%. I know I did/still do. >_> Just laser them until they get frustrated and start Fairing, or something.
His pivot grab range is much larger than his regular grab range I believe, so watch out for that.
Dancing Blade down #3 can make Marth pull back if he's attacking a shield (and using down variation for some reason...), letting him avoid a potential shieldgrab.
For DIing out of Dancing Blade: If you're close, DI towards him. If you're kinda far/at the tip DI away (for all variations. The standard variation is kinda hard to DI out of though...
Expect a few Dolphin Slashes.

Hopefully all of this is still accurate...I haven't played Marth in a while.

MidnightAsaph · Sep 26, 2009

Alright, so I played a Marth main at the smashfest I went to. He's no pro, of course, he's at my level in play. His name was RISe.

I think he beat me once, but don't underestimate him because of that. Most of those matches required some surprises from myself.

The only thing I have to say is that UpB, while we know can come out of anything, it can DEFINITELY come out of anything. Most stocks were lost because of a well placed UpB.

If you're going to hit him with the AAA, do it quickly and leave no space between, cause Marth can get out of it.

Like I said, fair is faster than your bair and probably all you're going to see. It can interrupted whatever you have going.

Don't mess with Marth offstage and be careful with recovery. The match I lost was from a spike when I tried to flash and grab the ledge. Came out of nowhere, nearly pissed myself.

Spam blaster intelligently.

DACUS is a no no. He just slaps you with his fair.

That's all I really remember.

JCav · Sep 26, 2009

i play marth probably more than i play any character so i know a few things about the matchup

and ishiey db1>db1 is not a true combo but you have ABSOLUTELY NO OPTIONS

you shine, you die, no joke

DI up is your best option but if you do, the marth player can spike you

all in all off stage is **** for wolf, dont even go there

its very effective if marth just planks and waits for you, its very easy to catch wolf and drag him down

my buddy says the matchup is 70-30 marth and his marth is no joke

i will say though, bayonet gimp does wonders against marth, i love bayonet gimps

Out of order, new matchup thread coming soon!

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