The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

A2ZOMG · Sep 22, 2009

BoTastic! said:
I'm not going to say anything. if I do, Pk.....nintendo will show up..

Lol man, go ahead. You'll be fine while I'm around. =P

Inferno3044 · Sep 22, 2009

FLUDD is not a guarantee'd KO. It has to be set up correctly. It's too simple to say FLUDD = win though its very helpful in this MU.

KO potential is about even. Mario's moves are more opportune while Ness has more power. Bair and uair can kill you and they aren't slow though bair is very predictable. You can decide who has more.

Of course, Mario's offstage game is better than Ness's. Do not try and attack from below off stage. That's a bad choice and chances are you will be spiked. Other than that, you will do better off stage.

Comboing won't be easy, but Mario can rack up damage better which will give him an advantage at that. Ness is not bad at this though.

If you guys want me to be honest, I think Lucas is actually easier than Ness because Ness can fight.

55:45 Mario for Ness
55:45 Mario for Lucas. The majority was even right?

A2ZOMG · Sep 22, 2009

Ness can B-throw you at 125% for a KO. That makes him harder to deal with than Lucas.

Otherwise Mario has the advantage anyway just because he's faster.

Inferno3044 · Sep 22, 2009

Is 55:45 against the PK Bros. good for everyone? Does there need to be more discussion on Ness or is this good.

Uffe · Sep 22, 2009

I'm glad someone knows what they're talking about. Any, go ahead and go 55:45, Mario. There's not much to discuss as this has already been discussed a long time ago and I'm sure not much has changed.

Inferno3044 · Sep 22, 2009

Also one thing I wanna put. Do not let Ness gain too much momentum. It's not pretty.

OK MU is over with it being 55:45 Mario. Lucas, I'm still not sure what we ended up going with.

MU's not discussed in this thread yet:

Pikachu (attempted but never actually happened)
Fox
Wolf
Shiek
Zelda
Ike
Yoshi
C. Falcon
Link
Ganon

I have no preferences so you guys can pick.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Sep 24, 2009

Can y'all talk about Pikachu? should the matchup be 45/55 or even 50/50?

Matador · Sep 24, 2009

It's prolly even. Bo's fought Anther before though.

:mad: · Sep 24, 2009

I'm pretty sure Pikachu is leagues better than Mario in this MU.

stealth3654 · Sep 24, 2009

We can talk about Sheik

...

Inferno3044 · Sep 24, 2009

I'm assuming the popular choice is Pikachu. Before I make it official I want to make sure I have Ness and Lucas ratios right

Ness: 55:45 Mario
Lucas: I wasn't sure whether we agreed on even or 55:45 Mario. Seemed like some for each side.

Kanzaki · Sep 25, 2009

Ness I want to say 60-40 Mario.

Lucas, it is even. The EXPERIENCED Mario players called even, no offense to people who says Mario has advantage.

A2ZOMG · Sep 25, 2009

:mad: said:
I'm pretty sure Pikachu is leagues better than Mario in this MU.

Pikachu is only "better" than Mario due to getting insanely lucky in some matchups and because Anther is ridiculous. Otherwise he's pretty meh.

He's SOOOOOO TERRIBLE at scoring the KO. It's pretty ridiculous. He can't kill you without a fresh U-smash basically, or sometimes fresh N-air. You should never be getting hit by F-smash or Thunder as long as you know how to defend on reaction, and his D-smash is very easy to SDI out of. And then everything else he has pretty much is not viable as a KO move in any shape or form.

Also, his range is pretty crap for the most part, so Mario can play the game of trading hits viably here. You kinda have to save U-smash against him, but F-smash as usual is a good, powerful option for punishing stuff he whiffs.

Mario can counter several things that Pikachu likes to say that makes him top tier. He really doesn't get chaingrabbed by Pikachu. He can outcamp Pikachu. He's one of few characters that can edgecamp against Pikachu safely. In general Pikachu doesn't get very many huge advantages against Mario.

Okay well, he can be gay if he can do the QAC lock, which pretty much should never happen.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Sep 25, 2009

Ok, peeps, Mario vs Ness 55/45 or 60/40. Mario vs Lucas got to be even. Let's focus on Pikachu, please. Mario does got the camping skills than Pikachu due to cape, lucky for us. Pikachu players can't out spam us w/ b all day b/c they know that we got the cape to protect us. A2ZOMG is totally right, we can easily SDI outta Pikachu D-smash just like that. His Thunderbolt can be a *****, but we can cape it. Pikachu's range is worser than Mario's, the best range for Pikachu is that F-smash. I guess it's in Pikachu's favor, no 50/50 for us, right?

A2ZOMG · Sep 25, 2009

Vs Pikachu is pretty darn even if you ask me.

Mario can camp him more, although Pikachu does have a few advantages in damage dealing safely when he gets in range. Not to mention you'll pretty much never gimp him, while he can occasionally do stuff to edgeguard you of course since your recovery is more predictable.

But anyhow he's terrible at KOs since he has to sweetspot a fresh U-smash to reliably KO anything, and doesn't really do much of anything that outright ***** Mario. I'd go so far to say Mario even has the slight edge in KO moves against Pikachu.

His F-smash has good range, but is much weaker if he doesn't land it in very close range keep in mind. Unlike Mario's F-smash which has good knockback regardless of sweetspot. Similarly, Mario's U-smash is reliable for KOs no matter which part you hit with, and while uncharged it is weaker than Pikachu's U-smash, the increase of knockback for charging Mario's U-smash is considerably greater (just a random fact, since Mario's fully charged U-smash KOs earlier than Pikachu's).

Anther · Sep 25, 2009

hihihi =X

Pika still gets Utilt/Usmash/Fsmash/Dsmash -> Thunder KO at normal kill percents... usually accidentally. Neutral air is probably a better kill move for pika in general than Usmash, even when it's not incredibly fresh. Pika gets a lot more accidental KOs in the matchup due to not having to vary his DI much vs mario, and I dunno if camping wins matchups..... Pika doesn't really need to be shooting jolts while you're running yourself into a corner with fireballs...

I think the matchup's close to even generally, but a pika that knows what's what will have a general advantage over mario, especially since pika never really has to be forced to land anywhere.. since that's how usmashes hit.

Cape is really good against pikpik though, You can really gimp pika with some good random caping off stage x.x,... and cape once and most pikas won't qac anymore, since you can actually gimp pika for doing one of his basic reliable "Get off the ledge and onto the stage" Quick attack. Pika's momentum canceling owns in terms of letting him generally kill mario earlier than mario'll kill pika.

BoTastic! · Sep 25, 2009

Anther, speaking of Mario vs Pika.. I need to face you again. Been a while.

you'll pretty much never gimp him

Its hard but its possible, I gimped Anther ONCE. Fludd reeaaally helps against pika's recovery offstage. It halts his skull bash, and puts his Quick attack out of control.

Inferno3044 · Sep 25, 2009

Yes! A pikachu came! And it's Anther!!! *little girl scream*

I think Pikachu is even. Honestly, I don't see it as 55:45 either way. Both characters have things to take the other one down. Nobody seems to have a real advantage over the other. I took this from the Pika boards. It might be about 6 months old, but it gives some good points. I reduced it to base it more on Mario than Pika

gallax said:
Mario

General Discussion

Mario has the ability to make life difficult for the chu. He has a cape that can reflect anything and even turn you around. He also has a fireball which is very much like our own but with some different properties that alow for better closer follow ups. Combine this with some good kill moves and a good momentum canceling moveset, this is a pretty tedious matchup.

Pika's Advantages

1. Speed
2. Range

Pika's Disadvantages

1. Mario has a reflector
2. Worse air game

Strategy for Winning

General Notes

Unlike some characters, we cannot cg mario. The best we can do is combo out of dthrow or fthrow. And the fthrow>usmash works only at less than ~15-20%. So don't expect a ton of damage from out of grab comboes. On the other hand, still try to grab him and get comboes in. Grabbing mario is a little tough, but possible.

Mario is a floaty character so when comboing the uair is best to start off with when in the air or when on the ground. You are going to want to use utilt when mario is at a higher percentage and you want to chase with a thunder. But, even though he is floaty, he can combo us with his utilt and uair. When he is utilting you immediately SDI up and away from him. He can utilt you to about 35-40% and then usmash/uair you. your nair can interrupt their uair comboes on you so be sure to use it whnever you are geting hit by the uair combo.

Marios Cape

Mario's cape is his best asset in this matchup. It can reflect tjolts and even gimp us. He is one of the few who can gimp pika. Its basically a win situation for mario when trying to gimp pika. Even if he misses he won't get hurt and will stil recover so expect to see a cape near the edge. To survive you need to chage your style of recovery. The skullbash is very easily punished so use it sparingly.

His cape has a lot of weird properties. Argh @ the cape.

Mario Strategy

Spamming Fireballs and Follow-ups

When mario is approaching or playing defensive he can spam fireballs and catch you off guard by rollling behind you or stutter stepping a fsmash. Mario's love to bait your shield and then force you into an uncomfortable situation where you make a mistake. My first piece of advice is to learn to jump over fireballs and to shield only when necessary. The tjolt cancels the fireballs, but nothing else. Jumping over them and tjolting straight onto mario's head can be effective sometimes. You can also crawl under them and also dash. But you have to time it right.

Based on my mario experience, it is best not to roll around mario. Mario players love to roll and wait for the dsmash. This may sound trivial but when you are being bombarded by fireballs then mario gets behind you by rolling you are going to want to roll. Roll away from mario when he gets close. Never towards him. If you are cauhgt in a shield then you need to jump oos and dair or just dsmash yourself when the mario is ending his roll. Some marios will even predict you and spotdodge then fsmash you when you whiff your attack. This is why I recommend jupmping oos. Its harder to punish and easier to punish with.

Getting Off the Ledge

Some mario's are really well at edgeguarding you. When you are hanging off the ledge the mario will wait to see what you are going to do then react accordingly, which is a result of their awesome bair. Whatever you do, do not blindly ledgedrop>jump onto the stage when mario is jumping all around on the stage. You will eat a bair. As pika, some things to try are ledge hopping a tjolt, airdodging onto the stage but near the edge, or qaing if you see an opening. Never roll onto the stage unless the mario has gone off stage. You will eat a fsmash or bair.

Mario's UpB

Mario's UpB can get him out of combos and get annoying when you are trapped in it. It also gets annoying when he's recovering and you try edgeguard him but get hit by it. Just try your best to avoid it or bait it. Baiting the UpB is pretty easy if you can combo the mario in the air and then try and get an UpB from him. This is probably player specific though.

Notes About Mario's Moves

Mario's dair is like MK's tornado in that is racks up damage and it spins mario around. If get caught by his dair be sure to DI horizontally away and down a little away from mario. His fair can spike you so think twice when trying to recover with skullbash. His uair can combo and his bair is montrous for damage and spacing.

Mario has a good dsmash so this means never roll around mario. Let his do all the rolling and let him taste your dsmash. I can't tell you how important this is for you to win. DO NOT ROLL NEAR MARIO. His fsmash is one of his main killing moves which is also a great move for punishing the roll. His usmash has a ton of priority so do not try and challenge it. Just stay away from it. If you have to qac out of his zone of usmash.

Overall Matchup

Dead Even. If not, in favor of mario.

Now most things about this I agree with except us being roll happy (though I have that habit which I'm getting rid of) and something about Pika's Fsmash outranging ours. Pika has a very small range advantage over us. So little it's almost insignificant. UpB is not our only combo breaker. Nair is very good for this as well. Also if Pika's in kill percents, we are gonna punish a roll behind us with an Usmash because it does more behind us than in front of us. If you are hit by Pika's Dsmash, DI up and you will probably get out. It's not hard to DI out of. I do it all the time when I get hit by that.

The strangest thing I saw was at the very end. Dead even. If not, in favor of Mario. As much as I like the sound of it, I don't see it. Each character has options against each other, and I think they can really fight on par with each other. They both have pretty good projectiles. They have combos and combo breakers, some but not many reliable kill moves, and I believe both can edgeguard each other pretty well. I know Mario can and in my head, Pikachu wouldn't be bad at it. Neither character has an advantage(s) big enough to really put it in their favor. It just seems like a really even MU.

About previous MU's I'm gonna put Lucas at 50:50 arguable for 55:45 Mario and Ness at 55:45 Mario arguable for 60:40. Any objections?

Matador · Sep 25, 2009

Mario vs Ness is 55:45. There are more horrible Ness players out there than good ones.

The good ones are amazing at walling.

Shahryar2010 · Sep 25, 2009

Mario's Advantages

1. Pikachu is lightweight
2. Cape or FLUDD prevents pikachu's thunder jolt spam.
3. Can Cape Thunder.
4. Much better air game.
5. Fireballs prove annoying (but mostly will fight with thunderjolt).

Mario's Disadvantages

1. Pikachu good range.
2. Thunder could easily kill you as low as 70% if not careful.
3. Annoying D-smash.
4 . Speed (Most important)
5. Recovery
6. Better ground game.

50:50 Overall

Matador · Sep 25, 2009

Shahryar2010 said:
Mario's Advantages

1. Mario can KO pikachu at around 100% with a clean F-smash hit somewhere close to the edge of the stage(That is if pikachu does perfect DI).
2. Cape or FLUDD prevents pikachu's thunder jolt spam.
3. Can Cape Thunder.
4. Much better air game.
5. Fireballs prove annoying (but mostly will fight with thunderjolt).

Mario's Disadvantages

1. Pikachu good F-smash/D-smash range.
2. Thunder could easily kill you as low as 70% if not careful.
3. Annoying D-smash.
4 and the most important. the SPEED of pikachu, it has alot of speed in the moves, many of pikachu's moves really outspeed some of mario's ones. This is definitely the biggest reason pikachu has a good chance against Mario.

50:50 Overall (If not just maybe 52.5/47.5 Mario)

Maaaad funny.

Seriously, I lol'd at your vagueness.

Inferno3044 · Sep 25, 2009

Shahryar2010 said:
Mario's Advantages

1. Mario can KO pikachu at around 100% with a clean F-smash hit somewhere close to the edge of the stage(That is if pikachu does perfect DI).
2. Cape or FLUDD prevents pikachu's thunder jolt spam.
3. Can Cape Thunder.
4. Much better air game.
5. Fireballs prove annoying (but mostly will fight with thunderjolt).

You aren't gonna always get a kill like that. It's not the most reliable source of kill percents. The middle of FD with good DI and momentum cancelling is how you figure it out. If you are using FLUDD to stop thunder jolt, then you are using it wrong. You should use it to edgeguard him and stop his skull bash/mess up his QA. Fireballs > Thunder jolt.

Mario's Disadvantages

1. Pikachu good F-smash/D-smash range.
2. Thunder could easily kill you as low as 70% if not careful.
3. Annoying D-smash.
4 and the most important. the SPEED of pikachu, it has alot of speed in the moves, many of pikachu's moves really outspeed some of mario's ones. This is definitely the biggest reason pikachu has a good chance against Mario.

DI the Dsmash. It's not hard. Other things good about Pika is that he has a very good recovery, his ground game is better than yours, and he can combo and kill.

Shahryar2010 · Sep 25, 2009

Matador said:
Maaaad funny.

Seriously, I lol'd at your vagueness.

Im only new to SWF, give me some more time to get experience in matchup discussions.

Inferno3044 said:
You aren't gonna always get a kill like that. It's not the most reliable source of kill percents. The middle of FD with good DI and momentum cancelling is how you figure it out. If you are using FLUDD to stop thunder jolt, then you are using it wrong. You should use it to edgeguard him and stop his skull bash/mess up his QA. Fireballs > Thunder jolt.

DI the Dsmash. It's not hard. Other things good about Pika is that he has a very good recovery, his ground game is better than yours, and he can combo and kill.

Ok, ill put the corrections.

Inferno3044 · Sep 26, 2009

Shahryar2010 said:
Im only new to SWF, give me some more time to get experience in matchup discussions.

It's cool. Just get to know a bit more about other characters than Mario. Knowing what the other character can do is very important. It also affects how you should play.

mars16 · Sep 26, 2009

One of Mario's most hars disadvantages is Pikachu's D specail, because its a good edgegaurding move against Mario's recovery, or unless if Mario can hit Pikachu be for he can use the move.
But Pikachu's side specail isn't that effective all Mario has to do is reflect it then Pikachu would get sent back flying.
Still Mario weighs more and has better air mobility, just have to look out for his thunder and his speed.

HeroMystic · Sep 26, 2009

mars16 said:
One of Mario's most hars disadvantages is Pikachu's D specail, because its a good edgegaurding move against Mario's recovery, or unless if Mario can hit Pikachu be for he can use the move.

Only effective if Mario is recovering from below, in which Pikachu does a bad job at. You can cape Thunder.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Sep 26, 2009

Uhh, Pikachu's down smash is not a disadvantage to Mario, u can SDI outta that very quickly. The F-smash is somewhat is a disadvantage to Mario due to range.

Anther · Sep 26, 2009

So...who wants to play some wifi tomorrow? XD

A2ZOMG · Sep 26, 2009

I would totally be up for it except for three reasons.

1. I'm in college, and college wifi sucks.
2. Distance much anyone?
3. I don't actually have my wii with me. =(

DtJ XeroXen · Sep 26, 2009

Anther said:
So...who wants to play some wifi tomorrow? XD

Anther, you know I'm up for it.

BSP · Sep 26, 2009

I don't think mario will really have a problem with any of pika's electrical stuff.

Inferno3044 · Sep 26, 2009

I'll probably lose badly, but I'll play you Anther. pm me with a time tomorrow

Shahryar2010 · Sep 28, 2009

Battled any very good pikachu mains yet?

Inferno3044 · Sep 28, 2009

Shahryar2010 said:
Battled any very good pikachu mains yet?

I haven't. I've seen battles of Anther on APEX livestream and youtube and I have heard of Pikapika. Other than them, I don't know any good Pika's. I still think it's even though.

A2ZOMG · Sep 28, 2009

I'll admit I haven't really played any top level pikachu players either.

All I know is that it's easy to react to his "best" KO moves in general, and that Mario is one of the better characters at dealing with any camping he wants to attempt.

Veggi · Sep 28, 2009

Anther said:
So...who wants to play some wifi tomorrow? XD

Me.

>_>

Anther · Sep 28, 2009

I'm ready :X, come to the pika Xat to exchange FCs, XD. http://xat.com/highvoltageclan

Veggi · Sep 28, 2009

I'm in the chat now.

/possiblyextremelylate

Inferno3044 · Sep 28, 2009

Am I the only one who's noticed that the only Pikachu here is Anther and he is just chillin' here?

Anther is so cool *faints*

DtJ XeroXen · Sep 29, 2009

Darnit, I missed playing Anther D:

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