Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ I'll ask this question, which character a Kirby main have an easier time with, Zelda or Sheik? I would be ****ed if someone picked Zelda but it's up to the people who answers this question. ☆
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Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!
- Thread starter Kewkky
- Start date
- Status
MK26
Smash Master
i think someone ought to notify the matchup chart guy in tactical about several errors and a general lack of updates regarding teh kirby section of the chart...
xTONEx
Smash Apprentice
For me, Sheik.
At this anime convention i went to a few months ago(Animazement), i entered the Brawl tourney and get like.....2 stocked by a zelda player. He even spiked me.....yeah i got beasted lol. I of course was Kirby...
Then....about a month ago?.......I(Kirby) played a sheik player and I 1 stocked him the first time, then 2 stocked him the second match.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Zelda, no question. Its still even-ish, but I can dance around Zelda's moves a lot easier than Sheik's.
xTONEx
Smash Apprentice
I could probably do better against a zelda now, but i don't know cause i haven't fought one in about 3 months.
Zelda is definitely harder than Sheik........ But still easy. She's too easy to telegraph, that kills her.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
Zelda is harder to beat. It's much easier to combo Shiek. Zelda has more moves with longer range which makes it hard to dodge since all of her smash attacks are multi hit attacks and stay out for a bit.
SkylerSilver
Smash Journeyman
A lurker is posting here again. xD
Kirby vs Sheik matchup is pretty even. Kirby can gimp Sheik easy, but getting that chance isnt easy.
50:50
Kirby vs Sheik matchup is pretty even. Kirby can gimp Sheik easy, but getting that chance isnt easy.
50:50
T1MMY
Smash Apprentice
Zelda is a much easier match-up at higher levels of play. She has some strong/disjointed attacks, but she's slow enough you can get around them. A good Sheik will have more at her disposal even considering her lack of general KO power.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
I sense that sheik has been discussed enough. Does 55-45 Kirby sound good?
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ I'll say **** that because it's the same rating as Zelda, and I find Sheik easier to fight, but let's find out what the others think. ☆
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
50-50. Its an even MU.
SkylerSilver
Smash Journeyman
Ehhhh, I go with 50:50.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Now I'm going to give up on looking at match up now. =/ ☆
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Mkay, 50-50 it is. And Viper, Zelda was a temporary rating because we didn't get any talk on her at all (rediscuss later, hopefully).
New discussion isWario Yoshi, because Wario is the highest person on the tier list that we haven't discussed yet Yoshi is listed as 50-50 in our old thread, and I'm not sure why that is.
New discussion is
Lord Viper
SS Rank
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247289
☆ Just before it was forgotten. Since I use Wario a lot, I know the match up is slightly in Wario favor, an unchanged match up to say. ☆
☆ Just before it was forgotten. Since I use Wario a lot, I know the match up is slightly in Wario favor, an unchanged match up to say. ☆
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Oh, I didn't know it'd been discussed. Well...looking back at the old thread, we have Yoshi listed as 50-50, and I'm not quite sure why that is. So let's discuss him.
:Sheik: :zelda2: :zelda0: . Halp?
Sharky
Smash Master
I know of one kirby player in our area, and he's not exactly good, so I regretfully can't say much about this match-up. Seems relatively even, though, perhaps slightly in kirby's favor.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Some things to discuss:
1. Neutrals: Which are the best for each side, which are the worst, why?
2. What should each side be doing? Be watching out for? Not be doing?
3. If kirby gets off an inhale, should he take yoshi's power or not? Should he expect to get an inhale off? (for the record, if Yoshi breaks out of an inhale whilst Kirby is in midair, he is believed to get a footstool on Kirby).
4. What are some good and bad CP's for both sides? Bans?
5. Walls of text are good. They make writing stuff up easier. Walls of text (that contain meaning, of course) are worth 1 steak per post (medium-rare).
Edit: Here is the list of characters that we have yet to discuss (ordered from highest tier position to lowest and split when transitioning tiers). That's right, only 10 left! (not sure how we'll discuss PT yet, open to any suggestions. I know what we did last time, where we averaged the ratings of the 2 best individual matchups, but not sure if that's how we do it anymore).
In addition, and need rediscusses.
1. Neutrals: Which are the best for each side, which are the worst, why?
2. What should each side be doing? Be watching out for? Not be doing?
3. If kirby gets off an inhale, should he take yoshi's power or not? Should he expect to get an inhale off? (for the record, if Yoshi breaks out of an inhale whilst Kirby is in midair, he is believed to get a footstool on Kirby).
4. What are some good and bad CP's for both sides? Bans?
5. Walls of text are good. They make writing stuff up easier. Walls of text (that contain meaning, of course) are worth 1 steak per post (medium-rare).
Edit: Here is the list of characters that we have yet to discuss (ordered from highest tier position to lowest and split when transitioning tiers). That's right, only 10 left! (not sure how we'll discuss PT yet, open to any suggestions. I know what we did last time, where we averaged the ratings of the 2 best individual matchups, but not sure if that's how we do it anymore).
In addition,
and need rediscusses.
One of my friends (who uses low tiers), mains Yoshi, and he is pretty ****ing good. Got 3rd going mostly Yoshi, and G&W to back-up on **** MUs.
I can safely say, with no shadow of doubt, 100%, no lies, completely sure, that Kirby ***** Yoshi... Hard. We can evade everything, shield everything, shield pressure no problem, and string with no fear of Yoshi turning the combo around. Even worse is the fact that a single dair poke offstage at 80%+ means the Yoshi is going to have a REAL hard time going back on-stage.
I have so much Yoshi experience, it's not even funny. Get at me!
EDIT: Let's see...
1. Counterpicks... Don't take Yoshi to flat terrains (this includes Smashville): those are his favorite stages. Platforms **** up Yoshi's game, yet reinforce ours... Battlefield is, in my opinion, the best anti-Yoshi stage for us. Lylat Cruise tilts, which Yoshi can use to lagless downB for surprise attacks, so try and give him the least possible advantages by NOT choosing stages with tilts either (Yoshi's Island for example)... Stages with platforms that won't move, that can protect you from egg camping and his air game, means Kirby will be giving him some serious problems.
2. Kirby should be watching out for:
__a. Yoshi's B, which he mixes in with pivot grabs. Try and approach from the air the whole, game, unless you get cocky and think you have his patterns read: then you can go in for a grab and juggle... If he gets you with it, mash the jump button and circles on your control stick, so you can pop out faster and to avoid buffering anything but a jump once breaking out. Watch out for his grabs! Even though we're lucky enough to not be affected by his air-release chaingrab, it's still damage that you can avoid! Approaching from a diagonal aerial position means the only thing he'll be able to hit you with are risky aerials (if he misses), and upBs.
__b. Yoshi's upB. This will be his best damage racker if you shield everything Yoshi can throw at you. You can easily powershield it, since it's highly telegraphed: they will be aiming to hit you with the eggs, or blow 'em up near you so the explosions can hurt you. Once you see him start doing upBs, rush the hell out of him and he'll have to resort to B and grabs, or aerials/jabs.
__c. Yoshi's aerials and jab. Yoshi's best damage-racking aerial is, by FAR, dair. It can easily rack up 30% BY ITSELF if you let yourself get hit from the start to the finish... And considering Yoshi's end it with a nair (which is a true combo, and his mid-level combo breaker... Not a Luigi-level nair, so we can string in peace) means that if you get caught at kill %, you just lost a stock. Lucky for is, it can be shielded on reaction, and once we shield the whole thing, we can punish it with either utilt if we're facing the other way, or a grab if we're facing Yoshi. His uair is the move he mostly follows up after getting us with a B, but careful reading and mashing out of his B gives us enough time to airdodge and evade whatever he might do to us; it's also a weak kill move, so avoid it at high %s. Yoshi's fair is a strong spike, but you'll rarely see it used against us: it's not worth it risking a stock to try and gimp Kirby, who has 5 jumps and an upB as well as a dair that can gimp HIM if he misses!And at last, his bair, which is usually just a punishing move that he can string to his jabs, which are FAST (so just DI away from Yoshi so he can't follow up if you get jabbed).
__d. Yoshi's smashes. His usmash has deceptive HORIZONTAL range! My friend like turning Yoshi around, then usmashing as a mindgame... The whole head of Yoshi is a hitbox (and strong, a good kill move) and covers good vertical range as well as horizontal (behind him)... It doesn't combo from anything, so just make sure to stay on your toes when you're at kill % (over 100%, just to be sure). His dsmash knocks you at a diagonal range (almost horizontal), but since we're KIRBY, we can survive any depth easily... Especially considering Yoshi's fair is risky offstage against characters like Kirby and MK, that can gimp fairly easy. His fsmash has a crazy hitbox; Yoshi's head expands and so does his attack's hitbox, so try not to punish it horizontally... Which is why I suggested diagonal approaches and strings that follow from falling bairs. All his smashes can kill, but hitting with them is a different story... Careful approaching (as well as reckless stringing) can mean Yoshi's demise.
__e. Yoshi's grab game. The only noteworthy grab of his is pivot grab, so don't be afraid of attacking his shield, or grabbing whatever you feel like you can grab... He has one of the worst OoS option pools in the game, so his shielding should be a blessing to us.
3. Don't inhale during the match. His power isn't really game-breaking, and he can footstool you if he inhale breaks offstage... Just stick to dair spiking, bair gimping, and frame trapping with fsmashes.
4. We should strike out FD, since flat stages are Yoshi's forté. Yoshis should strike out BF (DEFINITELY), since it's Kirby's best dream come true: juggling, and sanctuary from Yoshi's eggs... In conclusion: Flat = Yoshi, Platforms = Kirby.
Kirby has this match in the bag. My friend says it EVERY time we play, that Kirby just outright destroys Yoshi. We beat every option of his, and we can get away with a number of mistakes, on-stage and off-stage... Yoshi, on the other hand, should be having an uphill battle against Kirby, since all our options literally make it hard for him to do much... And what makes the MU better is that he can't grab our mistakes due to his lag with standing grabs (watch out for his B though)! When both players are at the same skill level a Kirby will be winning 70:30... I won't push it for more (even if I feel like it should be higher), but personal experience says that Kirby just downright ***** Yoshi's options.
I can safely say, with no shadow of doubt, 100%, no lies, completely sure, that Kirby ***** Yoshi... Hard. We can evade everything, shield everything, shield pressure no problem, and string with no fear of Yoshi turning the combo around. Even worse is the fact that a single dair poke offstage at 80%+ means the Yoshi is going to have a REAL hard time going back on-stage.
I have so much Yoshi experience, it's not even funny. Get at me!
EDIT: Let's see...
1. Counterpicks... Don't take Yoshi to flat terrains (this includes Smashville): those are his favorite stages. Platforms **** up Yoshi's game, yet reinforce ours... Battlefield is, in my opinion, the best anti-Yoshi stage for us. Lylat Cruise tilts, which Yoshi can use to lagless downB for surprise attacks, so try and give him the least possible advantages by NOT choosing stages with tilts either (Yoshi's Island for example)... Stages with platforms that won't move, that can protect you from egg camping and his air game, means Kirby will be giving him some serious problems.
2. Kirby should be watching out for:
__a. Yoshi's B, which he mixes in with pivot grabs. Try and approach from the air the whole, game, unless you get cocky and think you have his patterns read: then you can go in for a grab and juggle... If he gets you with it, mash the jump button and circles on your control stick, so you can pop out faster and to avoid buffering anything but a jump once breaking out. Watch out for his grabs! Even though we're lucky enough to not be affected by his air-release chaingrab, it's still damage that you can avoid! Approaching from a diagonal aerial position means the only thing he'll be able to hit you with are risky aerials (if he misses), and upBs.
__b. Yoshi's upB. This will be his best damage racker if you shield everything Yoshi can throw at you. You can easily powershield it, since it's highly telegraphed: they will be aiming to hit you with the eggs, or blow 'em up near you so the explosions can hurt you. Once you see him start doing upBs, rush the hell out of him and he'll have to resort to B and grabs, or aerials/jabs.
__c. Yoshi's aerials and jab. Yoshi's best damage-racking aerial is, by FAR, dair. It can easily rack up 30% BY ITSELF if you let yourself get hit from the start to the finish... And considering Yoshi's end it with a nair (which is a true combo, and his mid-level combo breaker... Not a Luigi-level nair, so we can string in peace) means that if you get caught at kill %, you just lost a stock. Lucky for is, it can be shielded on reaction, and once we shield the whole thing, we can punish it with either utilt if we're facing the other way, or a grab if we're facing Yoshi. His uair is the move he mostly follows up after getting us with a B, but careful reading and mashing out of his B gives us enough time to airdodge and evade whatever he might do to us; it's also a weak kill move, so avoid it at high %s. Yoshi's fair is a strong spike, but you'll rarely see it used against us: it's not worth it risking a stock to try and gimp Kirby, who has 5 jumps and an upB as well as a dair that can gimp HIM if he misses!And at last, his bair, which is usually just a punishing move that he can string to his jabs, which are FAST (so just DI away from Yoshi so he can't follow up if you get jabbed).
__d. Yoshi's smashes. His usmash has deceptive HORIZONTAL range! My friend like turning Yoshi around, then usmashing as a mindgame... The whole head of Yoshi is a hitbox (and strong, a good kill move) and covers good vertical range as well as horizontal (behind him)... It doesn't combo from anything, so just make sure to stay on your toes when you're at kill % (over 100%, just to be sure). His dsmash knocks you at a diagonal range (almost horizontal), but since we're KIRBY, we can survive any depth easily... Especially considering Yoshi's fair is risky offstage against characters like Kirby and MK, that can gimp fairly easy. His fsmash has a crazy hitbox; Yoshi's head expands and so does his attack's hitbox, so try not to punish it horizontally... Which is why I suggested diagonal approaches and strings that follow from falling bairs. All his smashes can kill, but hitting with them is a different story... Careful approaching (as well as reckless stringing) can mean Yoshi's demise.
__e. Yoshi's grab game. The only noteworthy grab of his is pivot grab, so don't be afraid of attacking his shield, or grabbing whatever you feel like you can grab... He has one of the worst OoS option pools in the game, so his shielding should be a blessing to us.
3. Don't inhale during the match. His power isn't really game-breaking, and he can footstool you if he inhale breaks offstage... Just stick to dair spiking, bair gimping, and frame trapping with fsmashes.
4. We should strike out FD, since flat stages are Yoshi's forté. Yoshis should strike out BF (DEFINITELY), since it's Kirby's best dream come true: juggling, and sanctuary from Yoshi's eggs... In conclusion: Flat = Yoshi, Platforms = Kirby.
Kirby has this match in the bag. My friend says it EVERY time we play, that Kirby just outright destroys Yoshi. We beat every option of his, and we can get away with a number of mistakes, on-stage and off-stage... Yoshi, on the other hand, should be having an uphill battle against Kirby, since all our options literally make it hard for him to do much... And what makes the MU better is that he can't grab our mistakes due to his lag with standing grabs (watch out for his B though)! When both players are at the same skill level a Kirby will be winning 70:30... I won't push it for more (even if I feel like it should be higher), but personal experience says that Kirby just downright ***** Yoshi's options.
Sharky
Smash Master
um...before we take much store in that it'd be nice to know who your yoshi friend is lol.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Though Scala and PM is in MI, I don't have enough Yoshi play time to say who wins. I'll give a few days until Ryusuta make a tl;dr post, if he uses Yoshi anymore that is. ☆
MK26
Smash Master
:shiek: lol@typos
also, yoshi is ****in annoying online
that is all i have to say.
also, yoshi is ****in annoying online
that is all i have to say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyQzWGRd7V0
Sadly, this is his most recent video, and it's old... Plus, it's not Kirby vs Snake, but it does help tell you just in what level of play he is.
Tiersie
Smash Ace
I often play Holland's best yoshi, I might do a writeup when I'm not swamped in homework soon.
hadesblade
Smash Lord
There is no way kirby is 70:30 with yoshi. Kirby beats yoshi, just because hes a better character. He doesn't counter yoshi in any way. All do a wall of text later, but I just got home from active gamers and I'm lazy.
Anyway, for now, I'll just say that pivot grab ***** kirbies approaches, you should never land a dair on us while recovering because of our DJAD, yoshi's uair isn't a "weak" kill move. It's probably his best one in this matchup, as it beats everything you have above us besides rock, and as you get higher in the air it kills mad early, I've killed in mid 80's with it. (which if you ever do use this move expect to get naired/egg layed/grabbed)
55:45 or maybe 60:40 kirby, no higher than that though.
Oh, and lol we don't shield.
Anyway, for now, I'll just say that pivot grab ***** kirbies approaches, you should never land a dair on us while recovering because of our DJAD, yoshi's uair isn't a "weak" kill move. It's probably his best one in this matchup, as it beats everything you have above us besides rock, and as you get higher in the air it kills mad early, I've killed in mid 80's with it. (which if you ever do use this move expect to get naired/egg layed/grabbed)
55:45 or maybe 60:40 kirby, no higher than that though.
Oh, and lol we don't shield.
Sharky
Smash Master
and if we do shield we'll spotdodge out of it asap while you're still in your attack frames so we aren't stuck in it.
Pivot grab isn't as **** as you say it is, though, hades, because they can jump above it and fall down diagonally with an aerial. Still, it most definitely isn't a 70/30 match-up unless you're chudat and you're just plain good to begin with.
Pivot grab isn't as **** as you say it is, though, hades, because they can jump above it and fall down diagonally with an aerial. Still, it most definitely isn't a 70/30 match-up unless you're chudat and you're just plain good to begin with.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Looking at the video you posted, he's really not that good.
Kirby beats Yoshi, but it most certainly is not a **** MU. You make it seem so simple, when you forget Yoshi has tools too. I have no idea how being dair'd offstage at 80% is beating Yoshi's jump armor, but either way, he shouldn't even be getting hit while returning to stage. He can lob an egg to pressure you away then DJAD to return, which, with Yoshi's amazing airspeed, will get him back safely 100% of the time.
We shall! >=[
Generally true, Yoshi does like his flat stages. However, platforms are not as bad as you say. They can help cover his blindspot by standing under them, which limits your aerial approaches to make defending much easier. They do mess up eggs at certain angles, but platform stages are NOT as bad as you make them out to be. Battlefield is probably your best neutral against us anyways. Most matches by stage striking will end up on FD/SV, though, since we usually strike that first. =P
Egg Lay(Neutral B) usually won't be used instead of pivot grabs. It's generally used for mix ups while approaching, to punish shields, or to land safely. Uair is one follow up if you get hit by this, though some will use Dair to rack damage. Grabs are good, but there's a blind spot which you mentioned. You forgot to mention that USmash covers it, which is an excellent anti-air move.
Eggs aren't used as simply as you'd think. They're used to cut off options. We can throw them so they land in front of you, to block approaches, or in the air in front of you, to block aerial approaches. It's a pressuring tool to force you to approach and make mistakes. Rushing an egging Yoshi can be effective since Kirby is short and eggs are laggy, though the more intelligent Yoshis will see this coming and prepare to defend against your grounded approach.
Dair has good damage POTENTIAL, but it's DIable and laggy, meaning it won't be used much. Nair after Dair is NOT a true combo until high percents. Uair is one follow up after an Egg Lay, though Dair is another choice. Uair is a VERY good kill move, and can beat any of your aerials but Stone as long as we're below you. It has deceptive horizontal range, as well. Fair isn't really good, and since Kirby has a good recovery, you probably won't see it much. Bair is NOT a punishing move. It's an approach that can be canceled to lead into tilts/jabs, as you mentioned, which then lead into more things. You can cancel Yoshi's first jab into a tilt, Yoshi Bomb(down B), or smash(lol). IF you shield the first jab and get hit by all hits of the Yoshi Bomb, it's a potential broken shield, and if not, massive shield damage. Jab also serves as a good GTFO move, and the timing can be varied to make it hard to punish.
Usmash is an awesome anti aerial move. If you try to aerial down onto us, an usmash will send you back into the sky. It usually won't kill until high percents because many Yoshi's use it frequently due to it's uses, so it becomes stale. Dsmash is a good defensive option, but not very good for kills. Fsmash is just a punisher. It's slow and isn't very reliable tor kills, unlike Kirby's.
Most Yoshi's don't shield, and use spot dodges to dodge your attack then punish. It's also not shield-pokable. His shield grab really isn't that great, but it does get people occasionally, mainly due to people not expecting it.
Yoshi really isn't easy to gimp, due to eggs and DJAD. His power probably isn't a big help to you all either.
Probably true.
It's an uphill battle for sure, but it's not as steep as you're making it out to be.
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
I agree with this guy except the pivot grab part. I'd say this match is 55:45 Kirby. Yoshi has some tools to even this match-up
Pivot Grab: Not as **** as you say, but it is extremely quick and can easily catch a player offguard. As a matter of fact whenever u think of a yoshi match-up you have to consider dmg from his pivot grab. Careful diagonal spacing can alleviate this. This is also why LC is a terrible stage to fight Yoshi on. It makes it much easier for him to grab u when he's on higher ground.
Smashes: Usmash and Fsmash are great kill moves tho they lack setups. Dsmash is more of an emergency "get off" move similar to Zelda's. Usmash is definitely the one to look out for the most. Yoshi gets a decent hyphen smash slide and the hitbox will catch you off guard. Fsmash is good, but I die more against usmash and uair when I fight Yoshi's.
Aerials: Dair *****, just avoid it. nair breaks strings. Instead of being aggressive while juggling Yoshi, hit him then weave out a bit to feint a nair then hit him again. Can be very dangerous in situations where ur at a high percent and building moment then u get KO'd by a nair. His bair is very good. Quick multi hits that autocancel and can lead to a B, grab or pivot grab if you're not careful when trying to counter it. Pretty sure if they hit the ground before the last hit they can get a free jab, utilt and MAYBE ftilt...not sure about the ftilt, any Yoshis know if ftilt works? Fair is the main edgeguarding tool but we shouldn't be in a position for him to hit us with it since we can DJAD all the way back to stage or just float above him. Floating above him is a bit risky due to UAIR. Not sure who said it, but uair is not weak by any means. It also has great priority and will trade with dair.
Sharky
Smash Master
ftilt is our fastest tilt so yes, it can follow up after bair.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
You probably die to Usmash more than Fsmash because Fsmash is really hard to hit with on a competent player. =P
I'm not too sure on the ftilt, I'll check the frame data on it.
Ftilt: Hits on frames 6-8
Bair: ACs when hitlag is over with, meaning Kirby has 6 frames to AD. However, if you happen to land after the hits, landing lag can potentially allow it to connect. I doubt it's guaranteed.
Edit: OR I CAN BE NINJA'D AND BE WRONG. Sharky, can you put the frame calculations here for me? =]
I'm not too sure on the ftilt, I'll check the frame data on it.
Ftilt: Hits on frames 6-8
Bair: ACs when hitlag is over with, meaning Kirby has 6 frames to AD. However, if you happen to land after the hits, landing lag can potentially allow it to connect. I doubt it's guaranteed.
Edit: OR I CAN BE NINJA'D AND BE WRONG. Sharky, can you put the frame calculations here for me? =]
Pivot Grabs can't punish rising bairs, or falling bairs>ftilt. The sad thing about Yoshi's uair is that whenever we're in the air, we'll be wary for that whenever you jump towards us and just use our many jumps (or our upB's laser priority to land safely on the ledge)... And following it up after egg-lay doesn't guarantee a kill: we can mash airdodge while getting out of the egg, or just stay in the egg until you connect an uair... And using dair on-stage as Kirby isn't really a very good idea if you're aiming to not take any damage, so expect dairs to only be used offstage.
If there's even one person who makes it 70/30, then it's 70/30. It just goes to show you one of Kirby's top levels of play... And if you DO shield then dodge, remember that the only things you'll be shielding possibly are lagless attacks (like our ftilt, bair, dtilt, fair...), so our attacks' frames will run out before your dodge, letting us follow up with grabs or other lagless attacks.
It's just one video, and it's old. Plus, I just posted it to show who he was... Determining skill from a video is pretty hard, considering he might play against you in a different way than he plays against that snake-mainer.
Yoshi has tools, but I meant that Kirby's tools outweight Yoshi's by a lot. Yoshi has a couple of options in a couple of scenarios, but Kirby has a LOT of options in many different scenarios.
If Yoshis always DJAD to return on-stage and maybe even mix it up to confuse us, we can also mix up our approaches offstage and remain on-stage, seeing as when he doublejumps forward he has a hard time going backwards... We can frametrap your landings with bairs.
I don't think we should be really scared of egg-lay... You're left motionless waiting for the attack to finish (which doesn't have IASA frames as far as I know, so you'd have to eat the whole animation up), while we're closing the gap with diagonal bairs.
Which is where you guys come in: to correct Kirbies when they err while making MU discussions, which you have... And I thank you for that too! But usmashes take a bit to start, and after one or two usmashes hit, the Kirby should know the range of it and approach much more carefully (if he doesn't know the MU).
Yeah, I ate a great deal of pivot grabs as Ike (and a couple of other characters) this way... Lucky for Kirby, he doesn't get CG'd, so punishing is further limited.
Forgot to mention that... Your jab IS pretty freakin' good, unlike our rapid-fire one that gets in the way more than it helps...
Usmash... How would you react if you usmash expecting an aerial, and we just land while airdodging then utilt you as a punishment due to your afterlag? That's an option I find myself doing a lot: punishing Yoshi with our utilts... It even beats dodges' animations, so we can spam it until you either get hit and SDI away, or roll away.
That's why I said that your shielding was a blessing to us: you have no options practically, and we can just read you and follow up with whatever... Dodge? Utilt. Roll? Grab. Laggy shieldgrab? Grab/roll behind you and whatever... It's cool that you say that you never shield, but knowing what to do when you DO shield (accidentally or w/e) is better than not saying anything about it at all.
I still think Kirby has a noticeable advantage... Yoshi has like one option for each scenario, where we have more than one for the same scenario... and our OoS options truly help if you accidentally hit our shields/powershield with close-ranged attacks, as well as our deceptive grab range compliments us better than your laggy one.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
A pivot grab probably couldn't beat the rising/falling bair due to the blindspot, though the ftilt would just get eaten right up. Uair doesn't just have to be used off stage. It can be used onstage as well, if you're trying to stay airborne and wait for us to react then punish. The only thing you could do if we attempted to uair would be to airdodge of jump again, which pretty much keeps the neutral position. Off stage is more mindgame reliant, though you should be aware of a rising uair, meaning you'd have to dodge it. The same applies to pretty much any aerial, though off stage, a rising dair can eat through your airdodge.
Nothing after egg lay guarantees a kill, except for an egg lay fake, which gives us a free Fsmash, though there isn't a way to reliably cause it to happen. Not too sure on Kirby's Dair, though I'd guess it's pretty punishable by a pivot grab or whatever we choose if you whiff. It's not too effective offstage, either. =/
Yoshi's shield game usually revolves around predicting your opponent's move, dodging beforehand, then escaping. It's really hard for us once we're trapped in it. Admittedly, I'd rather get grabbed by Kirby than eat some of his other attacks, since they're not too powerful against Yoshi.
I'm not saying he's bad just to disprove your statements. The Yoshi just uses moves in the wrong situations and even uses moves that shouldn't be used. I don't know how far he's improved, if at all, but he's not very good.
That's why Yoshi is low tier and Kirby is high tier. =P
If you remain onstage, we can recovery high, or we can throw eggs at you to get to the edge, which gives us a lot of an easier time returning, since we have a handy DJ and we can egg you while hanging off the ledge, though it's punishable if done stupidly. We also don't ALWAYS DJAD. Yoshi can use a rising aerial to defend against any threats. For example, if we're hanging on the ledge and you're waiting there, we can drop and rising Dair to force you into shield/hit you, while landing laglessly on the stage.
Egg lay isn't really a defensive move, except to cover landings as you're moving through the air. It's used to mix up approaches on a shielding opponent. It's not really too scary, it just forces you into the air and a potentially bad situation, especially with egg lay fake.
It's a relatively quick smash, and it's VERY nice for punishing aerials. It's possible to run under Kirby and do a sliding usmash to hit him with the back hitbox while escaping punishment if he dodges, though it's pretty difficult to do. And if it forces you to approach more carefully, then you're already not walking all over us like you thought you were. =P
Ah, if only we could CG the entire cast. It is still damage though, and it ruins your momentum, so it's still useful.
Well, I'm not really too afraid of Kirby's utilt. It's not a kill move or anything, and Yoshi isn't easy to combo. =D
Sometimes we HAVE to shield, but Yoshis know how to escape their shield taken as little or no damage as possible. =/
It's definitely Kirby's advantage, I just disagree with how bad you think Kirby wins. =P
Well, fine, 60:40 Kirby's. :D
Triple R
Smash Lord
what is the fake egg lay i keep seeing?
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Lol Kewkky. I'd still like to discuss it a bit more, though I agree with your new ratio. XD
Triple R: Egg Lay Fake(ELF) is an AT with Yoshi's Egg LAy(Neutral B/EL). Basically, if you get hit by the attack at a certain time and certain distance, you get dragged to Yoshi but not swallowed. It gives Yoshi a (I think) 20 frame advantage. All I know for sure is it puts Yoshi in a spot for a guaranteed Fsmash. Off stage, it can lead to a footstool for a gimp.
It sounds really dangerous, but it's like, impossible to do intentionally. All we really know is that you need to hit with like, the first or second frame of the tongue retracting. We really just know how to react to it. =P
Triple R: Egg Lay Fake(ELF) is an AT with Yoshi's Egg LAy(Neutral B/EL). Basically, if you get hit by the attack at a certain time and certain distance, you get dragged to Yoshi but not swallowed. It gives Yoshi a (I think) 20 frame advantage. All I know for sure is it puts Yoshi in a spot for a guaranteed Fsmash. Off stage, it can lead to a footstool for a gimp.
It sounds really dangerous, but it's like, impossible to do intentionally. All we really know is that you need to hit with like, the first or second frame of the tongue retracting. We really just know how to react to it. =P
Fine.
My friend used to do it accidentally as well, and everytime he did it I asked "How does that happen?", since I've never seen anything like it... We researched it a bit, and yeah, came to that same conclusion. It's quite random and DOES give you frame advantage, but since it's completely accidental most of the time, you usually won't react in time before an opponent can powershield the fsmash.
Falling bair>ftilt is a true combo until later %s (depends on your opponent's weight... I know that on Snake, it's still a true combo when he's at 60-70%, and he can't pull a grenade between hits because of how fast it is... Around 20% damage, which is awesome for us)... Uair, even if you use it on-stage, will still yield the same results from us: waiting on yo to use your double jump before we airdodge to the ground, or upB to the ledges and hit you with our transcendent-priority upB blade. You might get us with it every once in a while, but think of the chances as slim as us getting you with a dair gimp offstage.
Heh, I could think of a few people who would say that my Kirby uses moves in the wrong way... I myself even think ChuDat could do some improving in his game, he leaves himself wide open half the time, and gets punished by incredibly telegraphed moves and doesn't even bother to shield them... So meh, I still don't really judge people by videos and would much rather meet them in a huge USA tourney whenever the possibility presents itself.
... Touché.
Lucky for characters like Kirby and Pit, we have multiple jumps we can abuse to avoid getting grabbed by any grabbing moves the opponent might have... And we can land whenever we want with strong lagless aerials (like Kirby's bair) to knock you far enough and avoid counters like grabs or egg-lay... And if you try pivot grabbing, you get enough lag to allow us to land and regain our jumps, as well as reset the spacing so we can start the approach all over again and keep pushing you towards the edges.
My friend does that a lot, and I facepalm everytime he does... The deceptive horizontal/diagonal range in that attack catches me offguard a lot, plus the fact that ground moves beat aerial moves half the time make your usmash a VERY good anti air move... Sad thing is, if we start seeing it coming, it means that you'll be getting punished for doing it often, and hard.
It's not the comboability that makes it a good move, it's the deceptive range and the fact that it's OUR anti-air move. You approach with a multi-hit attack that doesn't have a better disjoint than our utilt, it means we'll be hitting you or trading hits... Which keeps you airborne, where we can keep chasing you and read your landing patterns so we can frametrap your landing frames with f/dsmashes, bairs or dash attacks (yes, our dash attack is too good... Helps a lot in many MUs that revolve around baiting and punishing Kirby).
Just for the record... If we footstool you offstage, you are worse off than getting daired. I uszed to do incredibly crazy gimps by baiting him offstage and footstooling him, then dairing/another footstool... Quite situational, but I've done lots of 0-deaths on many different characters by footstooling/dair>footstooling chains.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Teehee.Fine.
I dunno, it's very possible to be surprised and still react to it with an fsmash in time. I tend to panic and jab, though. >_<
I read it wrong and thought you were talking about ftilt itself beating pivot grab. My bad. XD
For Uair we don't even have to use our DJ. If you're low enough, all we have to do is S/FH Uair and land across the stage. It probably won't affect anything either way, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for us. I doubt we'll actually be getting gimps off on Kirby. I'd probably aim more for some damage and landing reads. I'm not sure up B could punish us if we were below you, but I'm not too sure on the range. =/
It's not so much that he uses the moves wrong, but that he's using the WRONG MOVES. Egg Roll is so baaaaaaaaaaaaad. It really is never used. Ever. Especially against Snake, who can punish it to death. XD
I hate those multi jump characters. That's what makes this MU hard for us. >_<
What I meant by the Egg Lay thing was doing a falling egg lay. Yoshi's fastest in the air and doing a falling egg lay can protect him fairly well as he lands. It's not flawless, by any means, but it covers him nicely. It can be mixed up with a defensive bair or dair, as well.
Running out of space really sucks. We can try and solves this by SHADing through you and landing across the stage, but I'm willing to bet Kirby could chase it well. I'm not too sure on his speed. =/
But then we're getting into mindgames, and it gives us more options than before. We can just run under at that point, or dash under then back and pivot grab, etc. Anything we use to open our options is a big help to the MU.
We really shouldn't be approaching much this MU, probably just chasing or something. Yoshi's not too easy to chase through the air. Number 1 Air speed baby. =D
Mind explaining the frame traps a bit? I can imagine the Dash attacks, but I don't really get thge others. @_@
THE FOOTSTOOL MYTH FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!
In all seriousness, Yoshi's do NOT get footstooled easily. The only time I can imagine it happening is if the Yoshi screwed up massively and was caught without a DJ or something. Gimping him isn't very easy at all, though you CAN get some extra damage in. =/
Edit: Yo I just realized the page full of wall o' texts we've created. XD
What if we buffer jumps while getting off of your egglay, and are out of a fullhop uair range? What will be your options? If you dj uair, we'll just airdodge past you once we see your double jump activate (by the "cute" sound on frame 5, or the extra jump range/weird animation you'll be doing while starting it up), if you upB at us, we'll also fastfall airdodge, and if you don't do anything, we'll try and land far from you or on the ledges.
By no means am I saying that you don't have any options, but a well-played match will be seeing little to no uairs connecting on Kirby due to being an awesome multi-jumping character.
If we're retreating upB, our range is more than enough to keep away characters with no real mid/long-range attacks (like ZSS's sideB, DDD's ftilt, or transcendent priority projectiles like Falco's laser)... Which we can abuse to reach the ledge safely, as well as land on the stage and use our projectile to force you to jump/dodge (or shield if you're far enough and won't make it anyway) meaning a safe landing... So it's not really an attack we'll be using on you, more like an alternative to fastfall airdodging to the stage.
Yeah, the egg roll thing... Sad thing about that being his ONLY youtube vid practically, is that you can't realize that some things he might have made were mistakes... Like when I'm ZSS and dsmash close to the ledge, my opponent shields it, and I accidentally buffer a dair when I'm pushed off the edge. He used to tell me whenever he was doing egg roll (they taste good btw) that his intentions were upB reversals, but since he was already rolling he might as well try it since he's going to get owned anyway by a mortar slide/Kirby grab if he stopped to get out of it.
I'd like to see falling egg lays in action... In my mind, it seems like Kirby could evade them pretty well since we don't want to follow you while you're doing dairs and bairs, anyway.
He's actually got a pretty average speed on the ground, but he's fast enough to start chasing as soon as we see where your aerial momentum is taking you, giving us the ability of reaching your landing site before you get there if you're not careful enough.
Which is why our game would primarily revolve around lowering your chances of running away by getting in the way of your jumps, forcing you to DJAD by brickwalling escapes with bairs, then chasing your landing trajectories... PRIMARILY. Everything else is important, but our goal is to limit your escape options so we can stay on top of your character, stringing as much as possible.
Ok, let's see...
1) Dash attacks' hitbox lasts long enough to punish landing lag, so predicting dodges of any kind by activating this attack beforehand would FORCE you into getting hit if you dodge.
2) Fsmash's hitbox is pretty weird... I actually think of it as a multi-hitbox, since it has two different phases in which the attack varies in knockback and damage, as well as the hitbox stays activated for a long while, like Jigglypuff's pound... The first 3/4 of the hitbox is the strong, early-killing crazy attack (kills light characters at ~80% if angled upwards, even if they DI), and the last 1/4 of it sends enemies upwards and is definitely weaker... It's a frametrap because we can activate it when you're about to land, and still hit you with the strong side of the attack, meaning a landing mistake might cost you a stock.
3) Dsmash's hitbox is active for a couple of frames, just like our fsmash, but its hitbox is always the same instead of changing into a weaker one(as well as it's pretty disjointed both vertically and horizontally), and it sends you upwards. It would kill light characters at 130-140%, but it's an EXCELLENT landing lag punisher since its horizontal range and long-lasting hitbox allows us to have a large error window and STILL hit (we can start the attack too early, too late, too far, too close [...] And still hit).
Which is awesome, since it means the MU discussion is going places...
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