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Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!
- Thread starter Kewkky
- Start date
- Status
Guilhe
Smash Ace
A boosted pivot grab will solve the shieldgrab or dash attack problem. And shield dash is reciprocal as well, I don't know how Kirby will fare any better than Ike, care to explain?
As for the match revolving around spacing, I believe it does. Spacing determine the options your character has at the given moment, the options available determine if your character is in an advantageous or disadvantageous position, advantages and disadvantages determines the result of the match.
Predictability is mostly player dependable. The fact is that Ike does have lots of lag in most of his killing moves (he has some lag friendly killing moves by the other hand) but he has killing moves for practically any given situation and KOs at a variety of directions, which only adds to the unpredictability factor. For example, he can kill out of a jab (Utilt, Bair, grab), out of a grab (Bthrow -> DA), out of a juggle or landing (Uair, Usmash, Utilt), out of a ledgeguard (Fair, Ftilt), out of nowhere (Fsmash, Ftilt, spiking)… A single bait can spell a world of pain for Kirby, possibly even a whole stock in a single sitting.
Pink murder
Smash Ace
That's assuming Ike is standing still. We're going to punish when you initiate a laggy attack and miss and/or we block it. Ike can't do anything during his lagging frames, so we can go in for the grab. Unless your saying that your playstyle is to sit there and wait. In that case, we probably won't approach with a grab or dash attack in the first place.
I don't think spacing is everything. If you know what your opponent is going to do, then you can act accordingly and punish.
Remember who you're dealing with. Kirby is light, meaning he can escape many of those strings with ease. And what happens when you whiff a string?
BOOM
Punished.
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Guilhe
Smash Ace
Yes, I am assuming a neutral position. As for spacing, it’s one of its purposes is to limit your opponent’s options and better yours, so you can respond more accordingly, as you never know for sure what your opponent is going to do. Neglecting spacing is neglecting the importance of positioning your character, which is very important in fighting games, sports, dating and crossing streets.[FONT="]
That's assuming Ike is standing still. We're going to punish when you initiate a laggy attack and miss and/or we block it. Ike can't do anything during his lagging frames, so we can go in for the grab. Unless your saying that your playstyle is to sit there and wait. In that case, we probably won't approach with a grab or dash attack in the first place.
I don't think spacing is everything. If you know what your opponent is going to do, then you can act accordingly and punish.
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[FONT="]If you’re talking about the jab strings you can only escape by jumping, Ike will have already recovered from the lag when you come back down. The Bthrow -> DA is a true combo.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]
Remember who you're dealing with. Kirby is light, meaning he can escape many of those strings with ease. And what happens when you whiff a string?
BOOM
Punished.
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Ladybug
Smash Lord
But Kirby has more than one jump. So even if Ike has recovered by the time we come down, there's no telling when we will come down or -how- we will come down
Guilhe
Smash Ace
It doesn’t matter; I’ll have attempted a kill move and then safely resume my normal spacing and reassume my advantage. Heck, Kirby can do that from neutral position anyway.
Pink murder
Smash Ace
I never said spacing wasn't important. I simply said that it isn't everything .
If Ike is assuming a neutral position, then chances are Kirby won't approach with a grab or dash attack after the first time of being punished. That completely negates the whole purpose of the neutral position in the first place. If you assume a neutral position to counter our grab/dash attack, and we don't approach with a grab/dash attack, then what good was that?
I'm talking about most of the strings you mentioned earlier. Kirby can escape them, and while Ike is recovering from the lag of a missed attack, Kirby can punish him.
Good luck grabbing a Kirby, since I'm pretty sure our grab is faster and has more range, and since the very thing Kirby should be doing when close to Ike is grabbing, the chances of pulling off a Bthrow -> DA looks bleak.
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By no means did I say Ike is slow! I use him, I should know. I meant his ability to react to strings, as well as having no real GTFO moves, make him more predictable... And slow start-up and end lag on some popular attacks make it so that we, as a character with a great grab game, can take advantage of such character flaws and exploit them greatly.
And what if we powershield and punish with OUR fsmash, knocking you offstage and possibly to certain doom?
Plus, we don't NEED to attack. The only relatively safe spacing tools Ike has are retreating aerials (very hard to punish those)... We can just zone you with our presence until you get close enough to the ledge, then capitalize on whatever attacks you decide on doing.
I feel like I forgot to say some things... Thanks, iTunes.
What about shielddash>ftilt, or shielddash>bair? Both of them have some real good range, and should be hitting you before you land if we powershield your attacks... Which, assuming the Kirby knows the MU and all of Ike's moves, shouldn't be hard due to the startup and movement you'll be doing meanwhile (sh backwards while fairing/nairing).
And what if we powershield and punish with OUR fsmash, knocking you offstage and possibly to certain doom?
Nope, spacing is not what matches are about. A single well-played shield (even more so, a powershield) would destroy all means of spacing if the aerial is slow on startup and endlag. On characters like MK, we can't do this... But on characters like Ike, who can only do one attack out of a jump, we can capitalize accordingly. What good is spacing, if the only thing you can hope to do is scare your opponent away, when if the opponent has good OoS options, they could shield and rush in to attack?
Plus, we don't NEED to attack. The only relatively safe spacing tools Ike has are retreating aerials (very hard to punish those)... We can just zone you with our presence until you get close enough to the ledge, then capitalize on whatever attacks you decide on doing.
See, it's nice that you're listing the attacks you can use to kill Kirby, but whats the EFFICIENCY OF KILLING for such attacks? Some have such horrible start-ups and are simply too predictable to name as a reliable kill move (fsmash, usmash, bair, spikes)... Remember that Kirby isn't a normal character, we have multiple jumps to stall out all of your attacks, as well as aircamping abilities to bait you into commiting to a decision that would be unsafe if missed, then punish accordingly (possibly starting with a dair).
Not really, since Ike can't combo as easily as Kirby (and I don't mean strings), and we can end our combos with a strong attack to knock you far enough to not be able to retaliate (as well as attempt to get you offstage for a little edgeguarding). Ike can only smack us with a jab/grab, which barely have follow-ups and would only do so much damage compared to our options (grab combos at 0% would mean a minimum of 30% for Ike, and depending on the location and choice of attacks from the player, it could be worse).
I feel like I forgot to say some things... Thanks, iTunes.
Teach me how to get my senses as fine-tuned as yours, O Mighty One!
Pink murder
Smash Ace
That's a crazy premonition right there...
But I'd like to say that I wasn't the one who started it
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All MU discussions are that way, at least in the Kirby boards: Super Theorycraft Bros has become the leading fighting game in SWF these last couple of months.
... Which is why it would be better if, after we do the whole MU discussion, we do just like the Peach boards are doing: input our own MU ratios, and compare our views on how MU ratios should go. And of course, write the ratios WITHOUT SAYING WHY YOU THINK THE MUS ARE THAT WAY, just write the MUs.
I really want to do this, but I'm going to wait until the Kirby MU Discussion ends.
... Which is why it would be better if, after we do the whole MU discussion, we do just like the Peach boards are doing: input our own MU ratios, and compare our views on how MU ratios should go. And of course, write the ratios WITHOUT SAYING WHY YOU THINK THE MUS ARE THAT WAY, just write the MUs.
I really want to do this, but I'm going to wait until the Kirby MU Discussion ends.
Pink murder
Smash Ace
That sounds like a great idea.
But wait, after discussing each character or after we finish all the MU's?
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All the MUs, so we can make it a project instead of a separate discussion supplement.
That sounds like a great idea.
But wait, after discussing each character or after we finish all the MU's?
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Pink murder
Smash Ace
Cool, I'm up for it.
Now then, it seems the Ike discussion is over. Shall we move on?
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Ladybug
Smash Lord
Lucas? Aren't they doing us? It'd probably be productive.
Pink murder
Smash Ace
Lucas? Aren't they doing us? It'd probably be productive.
...or catastrophic.
I think it should be either wolf or lucas.
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Guilhe
Smash Ace
Oh wait! I'm writing my counterargument. Can’t you guys hold up until tomorrow, or you don’t want to hear it anyway?
Pink murder
Smash Ace
Lol, go ahead. Besides, the only one who can make it official is Alion.
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But we already know how the discussion is going to be:
"Ike can space and attack if you approach"
"A smart Kirby won't just run into your attacks"
"We have long range yo you don't need to approach for us to hit you"
"Kirby will shield your attack and counter with a quick tilt or grab"
"Ike can just boost pivot grab"
"Wait, wasn't Ike in the air just now?
*repeat the cycle*
... Or something of the sort. Unless someone says something incredible that the one on the other side of the argument doesn't know of, the discussion is never going to end... Usually, in MUs, we all just agree on a ratio if we're bored and wanna move on, or if no one else wants to keep arguing.
"Ike can space and attack if you approach"
"A smart Kirby won't just run into your attacks"
"We have long range yo you don't need to approach for us to hit you"
"Kirby will shield your attack and counter with a quick tilt or grab"
"Ike can just boost pivot grab"
"Wait, wasn't Ike in the air just now?
*repeat the cycle*
... Or something of the sort. Unless someone says something incredible that the one on the other side of the argument doesn't know of, the discussion is never going to end... Usually, in MUs, we all just agree on a ratio if we're bored and wanna move on, or if no one else wants to keep arguing.
Pink murder
Smash Ace
He's got a point.
I still think it's 60-40.
What about you guys?
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Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ I'll agree with an unchaged match up. The reason why I didn't want to start it. x_x ☆
Berserker.
:^)
- Joined
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- 18,990
So does that mean we'll discuss Wolf or Lucas now?
Guilhe
Smash Ace
I see I’m just holding your guys back so, in a shortened form, I believe Ike’s aerials aren’t completely ruined by shieldgrab to the point Ike loses advantage in spacing. Because unless you’re carrying some ground momentum, the time for you to dash + grab is more than enough for Ike to recover from the landing lag.
I concede that trying to punish Kirby on landing is a bad idea, still Ike has Bair, Utilt, DA and Ftilt as reliable killers, Ike has no trouble killing.
That's why the ratio seems to me higher than it actually is.
Fim. The rest is up to you guys.
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
Just a quick question my friend.
I concede that trying to punish Kirby on landing is a bad idea, still Ike has Bair, Utilt, DA and Ftilt as reliable killers, Ike has no trouble killing.
Does that also go for good DI too? when you're talking about reliable kill moves?
Guilhe
Smash Ace
For reliable I mean that they are quick and safe to use. All of those with the exception of Ftilt have setups, Ftilt is quite laggy (hits on frame 17 and ends on frame 56) but is good at everything else, and so I consider it reliable enough. I don’t know exactly what you’ve meant with “also go with good DI”; good DI will make you survive longer if that’s the problem, still they are very strong.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
From an outsider's perspective that has seen the MU played pretty well on both sides, I'd say it's definitely 60:40 Kirby's favor against Ike. There's definitely an issue with Ike's tools that don't cut it vs. Kirby, Ike has some good tools, but they have some hurting qualities to them that Kirby can definitely take advantage of. Even if you were to go by the "limited to a few tools" argument, not only do I disagree, but it's a bad argument. In Lucario vs. Falco, Falco is pretty much limited to laser camping as an option, if he wants to guarantee that win, since Lucario can't be CGd, has better aerials and zoned game, and lives longer which is a problem, yet the MU is in Falco's favor, because those limited tools **** that hard.
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
Tha motha ****ing science guy baby.
Pink murder
Smash Ace
Perfect! What's better than an unbiased opinion?
My vote is on 60-40 Kirby
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Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ I guess we might as well start Wolf.... or Pit. ☆
Pink murder
Smash Ace
I think we should do Wolf first, but it's up to you guys.
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A1lion835
Smash Champion
Wolf it is. Inactive user is inactive.
Some things to discuss:
1. Neutrals. Which are good for each char, which are bad?
2. What should each char be doing? Not be doing? Be watching out for?
3. Inhale. Should Kirby take Wolf's power or keep inhale open? (If Wolf breaks out of Kirby's inhale while kirby is in midair, fox needs to DI away (the direction kirby is facing) from him, or otherwise he gets footstooled. It's basically an auto-gimp).
4. What are some CP's for each side? Bans?
5. Walls of text. They are good.
6. A list of pros and cons, for one or both character(s) would be awesome.
Some things to discuss:
1. Neutrals. Which are good for each char, which are bad?
2. What should each char be doing? Not be doing? Be watching out for?
3. Inhale. Should Kirby take Wolf's power or keep inhale open? (If Wolf breaks out of Kirby's inhale while kirby is in midair, fox needs to DI away (the direction kirby is facing) from him, or otherwise he gets footstooled. It's basically an auto-gimp).
4. What are some CP's for each side? Bans?
5. Walls of text. They are good.
6. A list of pros and cons, for one or both character(s) would be awesome.
Pink murder
Smash Ace
Wolf's gun is such a nuisance for me >_>. But I think It's up to you whether you want to spit or swallow.
If you swallow you'd have a tool for camping, and this comes in handy against a Wolf.
If you save your inhale, you can Kirbycide. And the "auto-gimp" is an added bonus.
Personally, I'd rather swallow. It counters Wolf's gun and can give you free %'s, even if just a little.
It's funny how often a Wolf simply runs into your gun
I'll post my wall of text in a little bit.
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C~Dog
Smash Champion
* Wolfs Bair > Kirbys Bair.
* Laser is pretty useless since wolf has a reflector.
* Grab combos work, but you have to shield-regrab since the reflector has invincibility and quick startup so if you dont it will interrupt your combo.
* Kirby cannot crouch under wolfs laser >.<
* Laser is pretty useless since wolf has a reflector.
* Grab combos work, but you have to shield-regrab since the reflector has invincibility and quick startup so if you dont it will interrupt your combo.
* Kirby cannot crouch under wolfs laser >.<
Pink murder
Smash Ace
Let's start off with a more in depth look at "Spit or swallow?"
Most of Wolf's attacks trade hits with Kirby's Inhale, so Kirby will get Wolf inside, but he'll still take damage (if wolf attacks while you're trying to inhale). A good way to inhale Wolf - with a less chance of trading hits- is to Ledgedrop -> Inhale onto the stage, since he'll most likely be close and that will desist the infamous laser.
Now whether to spit or swallow. Again, it's up to you. Both have their disadvantages:
Wolf has a reflector -albeit if you hit him with the gun as well, it discontinues his reflector- so using laser carelessly isn't advised. I'm also pretty sure that Wolf doesn't have an attack that can hit you out of Inhale. Wolf's laser can be used for some pretty good mindgames and to tack on a little more damage. I personally think it's also good for low percentage tilt and aerial strings.
If you don't swallow, Inhale can be used for Kirbyciding. Attempting to inhale just to spit while on the stage isn't advised, since as said before, most of Wolf's attack trade hits with Inhale making it pretty useless unless you're purposefully trying to get him off of the stage -which is a good idea. Also, unless Wolf DI's out of Inhale while falling, we get a free footstool on him.
Now on to the rest.
On the stage: Wolf's B-air beats ours. Not to mention that it's faster. Also -correct me if I'm wrong -, I'm pretty sure that F-air also beats our B-air if timed right. His N-air -IMO- is pretty useless unless it's used for low % strings. His F-smash is extremely annoying >_>. It has a lot of range, and can kill at average percentages. His D-smash is something to watch out for, it's fast and it's one of his main killing moves. U-smash isn't too great - since we can sometimes DI out of his first hit- but it's not awful. We can't crouch under his laser, and his reflector can be used to impede some of our strings. His Up-B is pretty predictable, and it doesn't trade hits with Inhale. Not to mention that we can DI out of it before his last hit. Whatever you do, don't get above a Wolf, you're begging for a U-air -which kills at surprisingly low percentages. Now what do we have for us? Wolf is extremely easy to combo/chain. You can U-tilt him many times before he's able to escape -or use Reflector. Tilt's and SH'd aerials are a must if you're close. Our grab's also own his, and we can string them with re-grabs or tilts/aerials very well. Hell, I even find it easy to pull off a Gonzo combo on him. Just watch out for his reflector, it can impede our strings with ease, so I suggest using more shieldgrabs in your strings than usual. Also, when trying to recover, don't do it from below, Wolf has a pretty decent spike.
Offstage- Kirby ***** Wolf offstage. Get him there as much as possible! D-air is a useful Gimping move here, because it can hit Wolf out of his Up-B. B-airs are also good. If you decide not to swallow, you can also Gimp him with Inhale -his Up-B cant go through our inhale. Spit -> B-air or D-air works wonders.
I also find that Wolf's recovery is somewhat predictable, so using Stone to edgeguard can have its benefits.
Approach- I'd say running shield grab, dash attack, or wait to punish. If you get a grab in, Wolf's in for a world of hurt. Dash attack is also good because it can string into tilts and aerials, and even if they block, theirs a chance they'll drop their shield before the attack is done. Waiting is more defensive, but since a couple of Wolf's attacks have a lot of end lag, it can be advantageous. I wouldn't try going in with aerials because Wolf's aerials beats ours.
CP- Hmm.. not too sure of this. JJ's isn't as helpful because of Wolf's D-smash. RC can be good because Wolf doesn't have very good jumps, and his Up-B has a lot of end lag. He also generally doesn't do well without a firm place to plant his feet. Frigate doesn't sound too bad either, and neither does PS1.
I wouldn't bring Wolf to Battlefield. He can shark pretty well and with deadly results (U-air). Brinstar is also a bad choice, because Wolf's killing power and the low ceiling and edges don't make a good match.
I can't help but feel that I forgot a couple of things...
I know what I forgot, the match-up >_>
I'd say it's either 55-45 Kirby or -more likely- 60-40 Kirby.
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Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
This matchup is an even 50/50 imo.
Wolf is heavier than kirby, but kirby has his gimps and some pretty good ko options(but wolfs D-smash is better than those).
In the air wolf has a horizontal range advantage, his B-air and F-air are huuuuge and a SH F-air done right is pretty much impossible to punish if the wolf does it right and it beats a lot of kirby's approaches.
Kirby has the chaingrab at low % to like 50 or so but I think wolf can like DI out of it. Wolf can shine too if he couldn't DI it at the start.
On-stage wolf definately has the advantage, he just has to watchout for stuff like grabs.
Off-stage kirby definately has the advantage as he can like gimp wolf and stuff.
Wolf is heavier than kirby, but kirby has his gimps and some pretty good ko options(but wolfs D-smash is better than those).
In the air wolf has a horizontal range advantage, his B-air and F-air are huuuuge and a SH F-air done right is pretty much impossible to punish if the wolf does it right and it beats a lot of kirby's approaches.
Kirby has the chaingrab at low % to like 50 or so but I think wolf can like DI out of it. Wolf can shine too if he couldn't DI it at the start.
On-stage wolf definately has the advantage, he just has to watchout for stuff like grabs.
Off-stage kirby definately has the advantage as he can like gimp wolf and stuff.
50-50. Wolf has some annoying stuff, but at least he isn't (insert higher-tiered character that ***** Kirby here)
At low %, dthrow-uptilt, repeat. Expect him to try to Shine you with the invincibility frames to get out of it. Shield the Reflector, and regrab or uptilt again. Pretty simple. Fthrow->uair works too, but is easier to SDI out of for him, and any character.
Get him offstage, and Dair. That's about it, you guys have said enough I guess.
For stages.... *shrug*
/apathy
I'll probably take wolf to wherever I feel like at the time.
The matchup is like, 75-25 Wolf on wifi, though.
At low %, dthrow-uptilt, repeat. Expect him to try to Shine you with the invincibility frames to get out of it. Shield the Reflector, and regrab or uptilt again. Pretty simple. Fthrow->uair works too, but is easier to SDI out of for him, and any character.
Get him offstage, and Dair. That's about it, you guys have said enough I guess.
For stages.... *shrug*
/apathy
I'll probably take wolf to wherever I feel like at the time.
The matchup is like, 75-25 Wolf on wifi, though.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I might be thinking Kirby is heavier than he is, but doesn't Wolf fsmash like take forever to kill with? Besides, the second hit is very tricky to land on someone who knows the MU, unless spaced, at which it point becomes telegraphed.
Wolf dsmash though is a beast kill move.
Wolf dsmash though is a beast kill move.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Wolf's F-smash is best used as a punisher due to its huge range. If a wolf just throws it out randomly then he will probably be the one getting punished. Wolf will probably get most of his kills with F-air, D-smash and B-air(if it happens to be fresh).
Berserker.
:^)
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- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 18,990
Pivot upwards Kirby's f-smash against Wolf's bair. Does that work?
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
I wouldn't say wolf's bair is plain out better, but it is quick and has better priority (this does beat inhale by the way). I think this match is 50-50 as well as long as the Wolf player knows what they're doing. Since match-ups are based on people playing at top level it has to be 50-50. Wolf's fair isn't that big, especially compared to bair. Its really hard to autocancel from what I've seen. Some guy CP'd Wolf and he failed to autocancel ~30% of the time. Lasers are lame but I would take them and use them solely for edgeguarding. Basically you get him below the stage with lasers and edgehog before he can side b to the ledge. I don't really see too many up b recoveries unless its a last ditch effort but that move has weird priority so don't think you can just ZOMG AH'M KIRBY IZ DAIR U AND U DIE. KO options are definitely in Wolf's favor. Dsmash is a beast and will be fresh when it kills you. Just hope you're in the middle of the stage when it happens. Bair, like ours, probably won't be fresh in the middle of a stock but, like ours, is a great revenge killer so watch it when he gets back onstage. Watch out for wolf's aerials. Nair and diminished bair can lead to ftilts and other bafoonery. Try not to get grabbed either. His pummel is ridiculously quick (ie refreshes moves at a high pace) and dthrow hit you for 10~13% and also has a semispike effect if done by the edge (think SSBM link but not as strong) which may set you up for a spike. Meh wolf has options, Kirby has options. Wolf can land KOs, Kirby can land KOs. Wolf isn't wasy to gimp, Kirby isn't easy to gimp. Sounds 50-50 to me.
tl;dr version: IT'S EVEN!!!
edit: For the people think Wolf is easy to gimp, he's not. Side be comes much more often than up B. Side B is much more difficult to edgeguard than the other spacies due to the angle and weird priority.
tl;dr version: IT'S EVEN!!!
edit: For the people think Wolf is easy to gimp, he's not. Side be comes much more often than up B. Side B is much more difficult to edgeguard than the other spacies due to the angle and weird priority.
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