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Lucario vs. Mario (32) Export

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Mario



Matchup:

60:40

General info:
I find Lucario annoyingly hard to deal with in general. Lucario is a character that is hard to juggle consistently, he has super safe KO moves, hard to punish dodges, and disjointed range on everything. Yeah. And I suck at powershielding. =(

Lucario is pretty floaty, so as I recall, he's one of those characters who Mario can easily Jab D-smash (in that it's unblockable).

Mario doesn't have any really obvious advantages in this matchup from what I can tell (aside from being faster), although he can edgeguard like a pro with N-air, FLUDD, and Cape shenanigans. Lucario's F-smash is also so annoyingly safe that it's one of those few random attacks he can just throw out and it never gets punished by Mario's F-smash.

In general though you'll want to keep in mind Mario's F-smash range because it's one of the longest ranged F-smashes in the entire game, and it KOs pretty decently even when not sweetspotted.
Summary:
Mario juggles us at low %. Don't get utilted. You'll be able to dair, DI, or jump out eventually.
Fireballs seem like approach tools rather than for camping. They're really good for him.
His Usmash can bait a dair and then punish it. Watch out for this.
Mario's recovery is imo easier to gimp using Lucario than vice-versa. Either one gimping the other is almost entirely dependent on bad DI.
Mario's recovery is more linear due to less distance and is protected by fireballs and cape, but really safe and aggravating. Use Aura Sphere, fair, bair, and dair creatively to try to edgeguard and/or gimp him.
Don't get stagespiked by Super Jump Punch. It's super special and ridiculously powerful, killing you at low % if you don't edgehog him right. Learn to edgehog properly or work on ledgetechs. =D
Mario's Dsmash is gay.
Recover over him if possible. Bair and Cape will make recovering interesting, but not especially hard unless you keep getting mindgamed by cape shenanigans. FLUDD doesn't do ****. Your superior recovery distance will generally let you slip past him with airdodges or by flying over him. Other options include using Aura Sphere to tell him to gtfo, or to reverse BAS and recover with bair. Curve Extremespeed if absolutely required to keep him guessing.
Cape means you need to be wary with Aura Sphere, but it doesn't entirely shut down our spheres. Just be careful.
Mario's Fsmash is really long and really deceptive. Learn the range or be slightly annoyed. :<
Luc's range doesn't increase with aura.
No, Lucario is a lot lighter than Mario. He just has very good momentum breaking.

The best Lucarios I've played is Scythe's and Mendoza's. I've beaten both of them, and they've beaten me. I'd say this match up is even or 55:45/60:40 Lucario.

Lucario has a range and hitbox advantage and he takes forever to kill. The best way to kill him is to gimp, and Mario's good at that.

It's very hard to juggle Lucario because of his dair. A smart Mario should not be trying to juggle Lucario directly below because Dair will stop him every time. He can be juggled at an angle so the dair won't effect Mario. Walling Bairs from Mario can also avoid the dair problem since Mario's Bair is faster than Lucario's Fair and bair.

With all this said, Lucario can still give Mario a lot of trouble, he has more range and his disjointed hitboxes will rival Mario's poor range.

Also if you any of you are online players, I really hope you know what you're talking about. Lucario is insanely hard online, and Mario's bad online. So yea..


What to avoid:
Meanwhile, we're vulnerable to his annoying bair, cape, more bair, sometimes fireballs if you go too low, and the ever-present necessary evil that is ExtremeSpeed. Mario honestly has a much harder time gimping us than other characters. To protect ourselves, we have a few protection options of our own, as well as a much, much more variable recovery, allowing us to perform complex aerial evasions while still being able to reach the ledge somewhat safely. Our floatiness lets us airdodge and move around without worry, letting us recover at our own pace when we feel like it. To protect ourselves, we have a few options, but they're arguably better than Mario's in my opinion, which is probably sheer bias. Fair is only really okay if he's jumping out at you directly while facing forwards, which should be rare unless he's the kind of Mario who loves to spike people. Otherwise his bair beats it if I recall right. Instead, we can use Aura Sphere in a few ways to teach Mario to give us some space. We can use it directly by shooting at him, which will obviously foil his edgeguard attempt in most circumstances, but it's somewhat unsafe as he can always predict it and use the cape to reflect it back at us, even if he's facing away... and considering we're offstage in this scenario, that's pretty bad. The other way we can use Aura Sphere is the ever-so-amazing reverse-Baby Aura Sphere, allowing us to return to the stage using our wonderful, wonderful bair. Our Bair almost definitely beats his, and if I recall correctly, it beats the fireballs as well, so really once again all he can do is cape us. The cape is tricky to get around. Getting around the cape other than the obvious double jump into it for a height boost is really tricky(and I doubt you'll find a Mario that lets you get the boost anyways). You can avoid the cape in three ways: going around Mario so that he can't cape you entirely, or screwing with his head, airdodging, and using a fair/bair to hit him, which is unreliable at best. Usually you're just going to want to go around him if possible, airdodge if necessary, and try a bair/fair only as a last resort/if you wanna be sneaky. In all honesty, though, Mario can't go out too far to edgeguard you, as he's both less floaty, and his up b is much shorter, so even with his good double jump he'll probably have a hard time edgeguarding you. Because of this, you'll usually have your double jump still when he gets in range to be able to harm you. Usually you can just use that + airdodge, or possibly even ExtremeSpeed to get you over him and back onstage. Fun fact: If Mario capes your ExtremeSpeed startup animation, before you blast off, you will still end up going the direction you were holding before he caped you, unlike Melee. Once again, in all honesty, I don't think Lucario will ever be getting gimped by Mario. His tools + worse edgeguarding distance just doesn't seem to stack up with our sheer recovery distance, as he can't really do much if we just soar over him every time lol.

Just remember that neither character really has anything that'll get the opponent offstage at an angle that either character will be all that vulnerable. DI makes or breaks this matchup in the edgeguarding department.

I don't think you guys outcamp us. You have an annoying projectile at mid-close range, and it gives you a nice approach, but you'll most likely lose in a game of pure defense. Fireballs are great, but they can't really gimp us unless we recover disturbingly low. Mario's cape isn't exactly the best reflector. It may make us more careful with our spheres, but it doesn't outright shut them down in the least. Your juggles work at low %. It's gay. We can get out past like 30% though with dair and stuff, though. Gimping on Mario's part seems to be quite difficult, although not impossible, as it entirely depends on Lucario DI'ing very badly, as well as screwing up or just plain being outplayed.

That works? Interesting. I didn't know Mario had jab-combos like his brother. I thought Mario's jab had poor hitstun and the sakurai angle, giving him jab locks with bad frame disadvantage. I need to look into that.


It's also really deceptive. I forget quite often just how long it is. It's really irritating if you don't remember the range.

Aura doesn't increase range.
I can only do Mario...

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Fsmash: One of Mario's main kill moves. It must be sweetspotted at the flame to produce maximum knockback. It has okay range, because Mario takes a step forward before the move comes out.
-Usmash: Another kill move. This move has a good amount of range and has decent knockback.
-Fair: This is a move that most Marios will not use unless they are sure it hits, because it is slow to come out, has a lot of ending lag, and does not autocancel. However, be aware that this move does have spiking properties if sweetspotted.
-Bair: This is probably one of Mario's main approach moves. It has good range and priority, can combo, can be used for edgeguarding...probably his best overall move
-Fireball: It's a fireball...what else can be said. It comes out slow and can be canceled by many moves. It's main purpose is to annoy/distract and cover retreats.
-Cape: It's a reflector, so be careful when using Aura Sphere. Note that the it stays out deceptively longer than the actual animation indicates. Can be used for edgeguarding
-FLUDD: Similar to Squirtle's Water Gun attack, it can be used for edgeguarding, but most Mario's won't use it until you're actually using a recovery move.
-Super Jump Punch: This is Mario's main recovery move. Has decent priority, it's good OoS, and has some invincibility frames. It can be used for KOs off the top, but don't expect to see this happen that much.
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Be careful about using fully charged Aura Spheres, because Mario can cape it back. Try to be smart when using them.
-Mario can cape any attack you use and turn you around, including Fsmash. Don't be caught offguard if this happens.
-Use your recovery effectively or risk getting caped/FLUDDed to death.



How to win:
Probably not, but it makes his approaches hell to deal with. Even when we can beat it out later on with Aura Sphere, if he uses it wisely it'll always be a great annoyance imo. :< To me it seems more like a super awesome offensive approaching frame-trapping projectile than a camping tool. Maybe I need to fight a campy Mario. I haven't fought one of those yet. <<

I usually don't see myself being edgeguarded by Mario all that much. Mario's edgeguard games didn't seem to effect me last time I fought a good Mario, as all I had to do was DI properly, recover high, and he wouldn't be able to do much to abuse my recovery. I honestly forget if our fair beats his bair, so I don't really remember much about how I stifled his gimping attempts when I was vulnerable. It wasn't THAT hard, though.

debatable imo.
Also the cape isn't exactly the world's most reliable reflector. I don't think it comes out all that quickly iirc, so it may not be THAT great for protection against Aura Sphere, especially offstage, but I dunno. It's been awhile since I've fought a good Mario. :<

Lucario is the spot heavier than Mario both vertically and horizontally iirc.

Imo, Lucario can gimp Mario easier than Mario can gimp Lucario, but that may just be bias speaking. Both recoveries are vulnerable in their own way. Mario has few, but not necessarily bad, protection options, and his mix-up options are in a way more limited on recovery due to his lack of sheer distance and less natural floatiness. This means that his recovery is in general easy to predict, as if he tries recovering in any complex fashion, such as moving away and then moving forwards, airdodging too much, etc., he may miss or not even reach the ledge entirely. However, he has the tools to make himself extremely aggravating to edge-guard.

Our dair, bair, fair, and aura sphere harassment really seems to irritate Mario offstage with his really short, linear recovery and only his cape and fireballs to protect his front. Occasionally, though, the latter will sometimes not matter if we can land a lucky un-DI'd fthrow, dair, nair, or if we get him in a string of fairs. (Rare for Fthrow, but it happens and is actually somewhat viable due to its speed. Mario mains just need to remember to always buffer/hold Up when grabbed by Lucario, or being punished by him at any point, really.) Otherwise, fireballs are really **** good and make him surprisingly hard to edgeguard. The former is harder to get around, as the cape is really **** good, but occasionally you can use a fake-out bair to hit him through it, or jump out while he's far out to make him sideB prematurely, then fair or nair him, or toss a sphere to bait a cape or airdodge, then jump out and continue edgeguarding. Lastly, watch out for the up B stagespike. Most characters can stagespike with their up B, but Mario's is special, generally OHKO'ing even at very low %. Not sure if it OHKO's at 0. Just make sure your edgehogs are perfect, or learn to ledgetech. Mario probably will be getting gimped more often than Lucario imo. His recovery is linear and easy to predict, but the cape and fireballs make it **** safe. It's somewhat hard to gimp Mario overall, as it almost entirely involves him messing up somehow from you baiting him with your good offstage options. <<
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Mario's recovery is not something to brag about, so try to go for some gimp kills if possible. He only has Super Jump Punch as his main recovery move, so it's just predicting when he will use it.
-Be careful about spamming Fsmash because it can be caped.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Mario's killing power is mediocre, so you should definitely outlast Mario. Once you get Aura, go crazy.
-Lucario beats out Mario in the priority department.




Helpful tips:
I don't know the Mario match-up very well, but I'll add what I know. Many Marios commonly boast about their Cape stuff, which gets pretty annoying when trying to approach him. Sometimes you will not want to outprioritize FLUDD with your FAir because it makes you lag in the air for some reason and you can get hit out of that if Mario's close enough. Mario's Fsmash's sweetspot kills a little early too, so watch out for it. He will use DAir to try to shieldpoke you, so if you know you will get hit you might want to try to DI/SDI up and smack him with Lucario's DAir.

You outprioritize the fireballs with your FAir, so you know what to do... His DSmash is pretty quick and has good priority, so be careful if you pressure him when too close. His back air has an annoying disjointed hitbox, so be mindful of that. Lucario's FSmash outranges pretty much everything he can throw at you. Space wisely and punish landing lag.

If you're recovering and if he goes to cape you and you know you'll get hit by it angle your ES up and you'll be propelled upwards which will mean that you'll likely get back on the stage, but will probably get hit, but hey its better than dying.

I'm having a really hard time figuring out when to use Aura Sphere in this match-up aside from a few mindgames (stupid cape). I'd appreciate some help in this... I'm not sure what stages are good or bad in this match-up either...

Hope this helps.
I'm just being a nitpicker, but his F-smash has pretty ****ing huge range. Sweetspotting only changes the KO percent by like 10-15%.

And what I mean by huge range, his F-smash actually outranges Ike's F-smash.

F-air does autocancel. The only thing is the autocancel window happens a little too late for Mario to do it with a normal SH. You need to move to slightly lower elevation or time a fullhop to autocancel.

I'm a little upset you forgot Mario's D-air. It's super safe on block. =(
His Up-angled F-smash is able to KO people easily in the 90s, so that's worth watching out for. His Up-smash isn't as strong as I'd like, but killing at around 125% is decent, considering how easy it is to land
isn't stutterstep and salmonsmash synonymous, except that salmon smash is like only one direction?
I think the key is the lingering hitboxes might hit mario if he pulls his body through the smash before he launches his attack, but I'm not sure and it sounds very theoretical. Also, mario fsmash will be used similarly to ours, I have no clue the mario that I played in WA, but he was legit enough in knowing the tools for mario and would punish my misspaced aerials with fsmash, sort of like our own is used to trap things like aerials/AD.
Be cautious around it, the range is not to be underestimated.




Stages:
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
Not to sure on this part. I guess any place that doesn't have an edge to grab onto would definitely cause Mario problems during his recovery. Also, try to pick large stages, because you'll survive longer and Mario won't be able to kill.

Definitely in Lucario's favor. 60:40 if you want numbers...
You should probably avoid Luigi's Mansion. It's a large stage, but Mario is able to Jab lock there pretty easily.
Some good neutrals are FD and YI. Strike BF.
For CPs, I'd say Frigate and Japes are pretty good, Ban Luigi's and Halberd.





Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.
 
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