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Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

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SkylerSilver

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Hai guyz im backz wit ma inabitily to write walls of text. >_>

Wolf is pretty much the hardest of the spacies for Kirby. Wolf has a weird advantage over Kirby onstage and Kirby beats Wolf offstage. Also, Wolf is HEAVY and has stupid range on his FSmash. Wolf doesnt have much trouble killing Kirby and Kirby doesnt either.

There a small fence of text. xD
Overall: I hate this matchup. 50:50
 

phi1ny3

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Wolf's F-smash is best used as a punisher due to its huge range. If a wolf just throws it out randomly then he will probably be the one getting punished. Wolf will probably get most of his kills with F-air, D-smash and B-air(if it happens to be fresh).
That's what I was thinking, plus it's priority overall sux, so it would be significantly worst in any other situation besides punishing/pseudo-string stuff.
 

Pink murder

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A lot of you seem to think it's even... 60-40 Kirby might have been a little overrated, but I still think that if Kirby plays smart, he has the advantage. Overall I still think it's 55-45.
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Pink murder

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Side be comes much more often than up B. Side B is much more difficult to edgeguard than the other spacies due to the angle and weird priority.


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If he's aiming for the edge, edgehog him. If he's aiming for the stage, predict where he'll land and punish. If you Gimp him far offstage, he can't use it anyway cause it would be suicide.

It might be a little more difficult but it's not too much. I still think Kirby can Gimp Wolf very easily.
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Kewkky

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Just for the record... A well-timed sideB cancel makes that recovery option Godly. Almost no landing lag, and Great! horizontal distance. Don't put off Wolf's sideB quickly until you guys see it yourself! (not meaning to put down your MU experience, by the way... Just saying and emphasizing) ;)

I, myself, think the spaceys go this way, in order from toughest to easiest: Wolf, Falco, Fox

Seriously. A good Wolf is pretty crazy and unpredictable. And his range is pretty nice too. His attack speed is also faster than Falco's, since Falco's options are pretty much set in stone, while Wolf's options aren't... Wolf can also space with his crazy fast, auto-cancelling bair! That move is great.

I know THIS spacey MU is even... The others are on our advantages.
 

Lord Viper

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Wolf should be the hardest spacey, how some people think Falco is harder than Wolf is beyond me, and how Fox got near even is lol. Not too much of a hard match up, only option for Wolf in this match is to play defensively while Kirby tracks him down, of course this doesn't include Wolf spammers because you should know how they would play, lol. But in a serous match, Wolf have to try his best to not get out of the stage, his recovery options are limited, and his gimping options are limited as well when he's fighting Kirby. I know some say it's even, but I'll say it's a slight Kirby advantage because of tilt and grab strings we can perform.
 

Pink murder

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I know some say it's even, but I'll say it's a slight Kirby advantage because of tilt and grab strings we can perform. [/font]
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That's great to rack up damage, and once it's racked up, he's much easier to send off stage where we have a good advantage. As I said before, as long as we play smart we should have a slight advantage.
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Ishiey

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Wolf's gun is such a nuisance for me >_>. But I think It's up to you whether you want to spit or swallow.
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I lol'd.

ANYWAYS, I think the matchup is 50-50.


DISCLAIMER:
I like to type a lot of useless BS. If you want a short version, basically what Asdioh said. Just typing more stuff out to give a clearer Wolf perspective, I guess. I haven't played any notable pros, but this is what I can say about the matchup from my experience.


Stages, I'm not quite sure. Can't think of any particular advantages on neutrals, so go wherever you're most comfortable I'd say. Brinstar is good for Wolf (someone else mentioned this before), so you might want to ban that. RC is NOT a particularly bad Wolf stage, contrary to popular belief. The constantly shifting scenery results in an aerial game, where Wolf outspeeds and outranges Kirby (but clearly loses in terms of gimpability). This isn't to say that CPing RC is a bad idea, just that it's nothing near a guarantee, although I do agree that it would be better for Kirby.

Wolf should DEFINIETLY be staying on stage. Kirby seems to have difficulty getting past shff bairs and AC fairs (at least the ones I've played) due to range, but shff bairs must be spaced quite well or else Kirby can shieldgrab for some gay **** at low %. Fair has a MASSIVE disjointed hitbox, do not underestimate it. Also, don't get shielded, because Wolf will punish you. If/when you get punished by fsmash, be sure to DI the first hit up. This will get you out of the second hit because of your light weight, and result in around 5% instead of 15%. Grab combos are your best bet on stage, fthrow stuff can be SDId/shined out of, but if you predict a shine just shield it and continue. Dthrow > utilt is really annoying, I'd go with that. Uhhh after the utilts, your uair is really annoying for me, I always underestimate the hitbox... but regardless, a well timed shine will get Wolf out of uairs at moderate %.

Off stage, yeah Wolf kinda gets ***** in the face. Dair is no fun, bair eats through our recovery if placed well. Wolf will try to recover with sideB unless he's too low, in which case (as I believe you guys have already discussed) it should be a stock. Inhale gimps as well, never fun. I have no idea what Kirby's fastest aerial is, but you can probably use it to escape Wolf's upB with some minor DI and basically hit us further away. Definitely take Wolf offstage, he is very difficult to edgehog unless recovering from max distance or... just bad thinking. Most Wolves land onstage with the very last bit of sideB in case they get hogged, and it's not the easiest judgment call for an opponent to make either. Anyways, next point...

As great as inhale tricks are, Kirby with Wolf's blaster is a SERIOUS pain. I start to do badly against a Kirby with my lasers even when it's a CPU :( But really, it will help out your game a lot. Wolf should not be getting inhaled (as someone said before, bair can beat it out and iirc fair as well), but mistakes happen, and if you're lucky enough I would strongly reccomend taking the laser. Airplank with it, the blaster actually gives Wolf a small boost in horizontal momentum. Since Kirby is so floaty he can essentially DJ blaster over and over and over to annoy any Wolf that chooses to take to the air. True, they can be reflected, but if you're at a good enough range you'll be able to dodge on reaction. The worst part about getting hit by lasers (for Wolf) is that while our airspeed is high, our air mobility is comparatively lackluster... so when you hit us we'll just stop and fall, more or less losing all of the momentum we had from taking off. It's useful on-stage for forcing a landing (hopefully giving you a punish opportunity) and off-stage for forcing Wolf below stage and to lose his momentum, creating an easy gimp scenario.


Killing, people have already been over that. Someone said something about approaching with dash attack, I wouldn't reccomend it... Idk how many other people do this, but I can SDI away, shield, and punish fairly consistently. In general, you should really be wary of getting punished, and at least DI the likely fsmash. Dthrow > utilt to start, then try to get Wolf offstage and gimp. Getting lasers only helps your cause, but either way it's not quite as simple as it sounds, Wolf can keep you out of your desired range on the ground quite well.



And, as usual, once I'm done spending all this time typing up a matchup, I have a feeling that the post is pointless and inefficient, but whatever :dizzy:

:059:
 

Pink murder

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I was wondering whether I should have re-phrased it, but I thought you guys were more mature than that. I was wrong :p

Dash attack shouldn't be used consistently for the reasons you stated, but its not bad to throw it in there once in a while, especially if a Wolf falls for it the first time.

If you predict a F-smash, you can inhale it if you can afford the damage and if you think the blaster/spit is worth it.

I still don't see how its 50-50... Kirby's damage racking advantage plus his offstage advantage should give him a slight advantage upper hand...


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Asdioh

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Small thought: If anyone here doubts that the Fox:Kirby matchup is actually pretty close to even, I'd love to play you on wifi. I'll show you why it's not hugely in Kirby's favor like some of you think it is >_>

Disclaimer: wifi sucks, and Fox sucks on wifi, even more than Kirby does.
 

Kewkky

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I don't play WiFi much, and even less now that my wii has been busted for the longest time.


In a tourney I went to a while ago, I 2-and-3 stocked all the Foxes that appeared with Kirby, then went real close to the Lucario players (never lost once, though, not even to G&Ws, MKs or Snakes)... These experiences make me think that Fox is definitely disadvantaged. I dunno... Kirby just has a far easier time than Fox will ever dream of having.
 

A1lion835

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I believe that Fox is close to even. I was stupid and said 60-40 at the beginning...and then had my misconceptions cleared up by accurate discussion. Which is how I think matchup discussions should go. Everyone is a n00b at part/all of the matchup, and everyone walks out with all their misconceptions gotten rid of, or at least most of them.

So...dead discussion. Who next?
 

Lord Viper

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Lucas already finished the match up for us, and the rest of the characters you listed are characters not seen too often in tourney's. We should aim more of the A or B tier's since we have most info on S tier.
 

SkylerSilver

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Lucas already finished the match up for us, and the rest of the characters you listed are characters not seen too often in tourney's. We should aim more of the A or B tier's since we have most info on S tier.
I think we dicussed all the characters in A and B tiers. Redicussion maybe?
lol we? alll i do is lurk the boards >.>
 

Lord Viper

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Pit shouldn't be too much of a problem for you as long as you don't fall for most of his bait & trap tactics. Pit's major flaw is lack of kill options, (which are mostly his F-Smash, D-Smash, and Glide slash), his B-Air is a good killing move, but the sweet spot is hard to land on. What's a problem with Pit should be his quick attacks and how fast he can avoid getting hit, if you say his arrows are annoying than you are playing too defensive and allowing yourself to get hit by his arrows which should be easily garded unless it's one of the stages he's good at, (Halbred for example). About gimping him because most Pit's are too statistic to get gimped so you would have to catch them if they make a mastake if you see one. Most of the time you play Pit, will mostly be defensive ones meaning they will mostly wait and see what you will do, and catch you while your slipping.
 

Admiral Pit

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Well, I may not be pure on the matchup with the lack of recent great experience, but I can probably think and think based on some experiences. Everything that's between the lines is in my document that will hold all of Pit's matchups.

________________________________
Matchup: Kirby
Intro: Pit always had a bit of a problem against smaller targets since it's hard to hit them or to shoot them with arrows. That's where Kirby is going to give Pit problems.

Range/Priority
Okay, Kirby and Pit both have similar ranges, but Kirby's B-air is probably more threatening to Pit, being able to destroy arrows when timed right, and to gimp Pit, too. F-air is also threatening to Pit with it's multiple reaching hits. Pit can't spot dodge or air dodge the full move, for the 3rd hit will get him. For Pit, F-air is probably his best choice, since it is disjointed, and is perhaps Pit's longest ranged move, along with his laggy F-tilt. Pit's Angel ring can be outprioritized by a Kirby Fsmash. Kirby seems to do slightly better here.

Power and Weight:
On the Power and Weight side, Pit weighs more obviously, but Kirby has the better power. This would probably be in Kirby's favor since his Power is just rough, especially the Fsmash and Hammer. Kirby's light weight, however, does help Pit KO decently, for Pit alone, has poor KO power. His Fsmash and Sweetspotted B-air are Pit's best KO moves, which still have some poor KO power. So again, Kirby would win this section on Power.

Camping:
For Camping, this is sort of tricky. Pit has his famous arrows, but Kirby is a small target, hard to hit. Plus Kirby can make attempts to B-air the arrows too. Pit, however, succeeds Camping just for having a long-ranged projectile, even though Kirby is hard to hit, and Kirby will have to approach eventually.... Well, unless he does have Pit's arrows, but even if he does, Pit still has reflectors.
For Pit's ledgecamp, it really is a tough one compared to many others, being able to arrow away even from the ledge, but again, Kirby is a small target.

Basic things/other:
Well, Kirby still has his F-throw to U-air that works on Pit, and for Pit, though he originally had his F-throw to stutterstep Fsmash, which could do 29-30% damage max, starting from 0, won't work on Kirby, for he can DI away from it. Pit can try to mix up his disjointed F-airs with arrows, making attempts to space and pressure a bit, though, again, hard to hit Kirby. Nothing much to say here.

Edgeguarding/Gimping:
For Gimping, Kirby to Pit, Kirby's B-air alone is a threatening factor to a recovering Pit. F-air works too, really hard to dodge with its multiple attacks. For Pit's Gliding, a B-air can do just fine since the glide attack is hard to angle and time. As for Pit's B-air, all you have to do is hit him, and he can't use it again. Pit could retaliate with Shooting arrows at he recovers, or an F-air too, though kinda hard with Kirby's B-air in the way.
Now, if Kirby does have Pit's arrows, then it just helps him even more. T_T

For Gimping, Pit to Kirby, Pit does have potential to do so, but it is hard since again, Kirby is small and hard to hit. Most Kirbys do like to recover from a high elevation than a lower elevation. He can use Side-B to help recover slightly and attack at the same time, constant F-airs to give pressure, and with 5 mid-air jumps, it's difficult for Pit to get him. He can easily go towards Pit's arrowing blind spots, where the arrows can't curve in to hit him.
Pit's Angel Ring can help if he can knock Kirby back a bit, hoping that he isn't higher than Pit elevation-wise.
As for Kirby's Up-B, Pit can mirror shield it to kill him. Even the tip of the final cutter is a mirror shielding target for Pit to use to his advantage. Getting a Kirby to use Up-B is sort of hard with the multiple jumps and all, but if he is capable if limiting Kirby or getting him to use Up-B, that mirror shielding chance is what Pit needs.

Pit Kirby: Kirby with Arrows (Kirby-exclusive)
A Pit would think in his mind, "Let me go!"
For Kirby, he should try getting those arrows whenever that opportunity comes. This way, the Kirby has his own means of camping, and a better chance at gimping Pit better. You can control the arrows just like Pit can.
Be warned, though. By having Pit's arrows, do watch out for Pit's multi-hit attacks, like his infinite Jab, N-air, U-air, and Angel Ring. Each hit is a chance of you losing those powers. So a Pit that may spam these moves may be trying to forcefully take away the arrow powers that Kirby obtained.

Special Note: For Kirby, when under the stage, while trying to get back up, watch out for Pit's D-tilt, which does have potential to spike. The hitbox of the spike is where u r really close to Pit, as in touching him around his feet when Pit executes the move. The spike is sort of strong, actually, not Ganon-Strong, but probably Ike strong. You pretty much won't survive at around 40% and the D-tilt does 11% damage max.
This may not be likely, but it helps to have the knowledge.

I find the overall matchup to be around 55:45 Kirby's advantage, could slightly end up being 50:50 eventually.
It's Kirby's power with some priority, size, and good capability of gimping Pit while Pit has hard times hitting him that's really the problem. Even though Pit does have the disjointed F-air and ability to camp, he is limited, trying to hit Kirby, and has recovering difficulties.
____________________________


Now, this is my own data all from wifi , experience, knowledge, and BEFORE u bash wifi and all, be glad that I have provided a some info, and those tourneyrats think they are all that, when I could be as good as them at discussions and such. (Sorry if that sounded kinda harsh, but it annoys me when ppl don't take my info because it's associated with wifi)
Some info is better than none, right? :(

But anyways, I do have a request for the Kirbys. I would like to know the name of any good Kirby with some good Pit experience to help make a summary in the Pit v Kirby matchup, from the Kirby's "Point-of-view." The more the merrier. This reason is so I can continue supporting the Pit players with an attempted complete summary on every matchup.
What u read that's between the lines are all in the document that will hold all Pit matchups in it.
So I would appreciate if you guys can help me out with that part.

BTW, another thing. We may need to know Stage CPs/Bans due to the outdated CP/Ban list that we have.
The only thing about stages that I know are the following:

Yoshi's Island: Pit's worst neutral by default, due to it limiting Pit's recovery really well, (Can't glide under the stage) allowing u to gimp him easier. The Shy guys also block the arrows too, so camping may be a bit harder on Pit's part. You can CP this against Pit if you wish.

Lylat: I actually dont know about this. It affects Kirby's recovery, but most Kirbys prefer to recover from a high elevation. Pit can fly under the stage at will, and his projectile can be curved, so the tilting stage really cant ruin the arrows much. So idk if this could be a CP against Kirby or not.
_____________________________________

So again, I hope the info helps.
 

Pink murder

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What pit doesn't have in K.O options, he compensates with his Bait and Punish game.

Onstage: Our Bair beats most of Pit's attack. Pit isn't that heavy, so he can escape a lot of our strings before they get into moderately high percentages. Pit has his arrows but as Viper mention earlier, you shouldn't be too far away from Pit in the first place... Swallowing him can carry some pretty sweet advantages, especially since you can Gimp him just fine without Inhale. Pit doesn't have good K.O abilities, Kirby does. Pit's strings don't really work on us, and ours work on him to a certain extent. Some of Pit's aerials have a bit a lag to them, making it a cinch to punish if we blocked/dodged correctly. If pit attempts a Side-B and hits, DI up and away from Pit.

Offstage: I think Kirby excels here. Our Dair owns his Up-B, and if fastfalled correctly, can lead into a footstool. Our Bair is also a great killing move here. Sure he can try to recover while using arrows, but our Bair can cancel them out. Fair is also easy to predict, and because of the lag, easy to punish offstage. The only problem is that Pit will usually try to recover high. If Inhale is still an option, you can try using it to decrease his altitude and follow up with a Dair when he escapes. If his Up-B runs out while over the stage, predict where he will land - on the ledge or on the ground - and punish his landing lag. If he goes for the ledge, a well timed F-smash should do the trick. I'd say Kirby has an advantage here.

Spit or swallow: I think you should swallow. Inhale isn't really necessary here, and Pit's arrows can really be of use to you. Just be wary of his Shield (Down-B).

CP's: Not sure... I'd say to pick a stage where Pit won't be able to run away and get campy. A stage with good platforming might be of use to you too. Whatever you do though, don't pick Halberd.

I really can't say much more because I have almost no MU experience with Pit...
As for the Match-up ratio, I'd say its 55-45 Kirby.

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Pit can have a hard time camping Kirby since Kirby is too small so arrows are kinda useless and since Kirby is good at killing and Pit doesn't have much killing moves, Pit may have a hard time. I say 55:45 Kirby
 

jiovanni007

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Pit can have a hard time camping Kirby since Kirby is too small so arrows are kinda useless and since Kirby is good at killing and Pit doesn't have much killing moves, Pit may have a hard time. I say 55:45 Kirby
Arrows angle, Pit does have a dead zone though. If you get in the dead zone mostly he will retreat or try to attack where range comes into play. Its not to difficult to hit Kirby with arrows. As far as Kirby having arrows, all he has to do is SH and angle down and the arrow will fly Kirby's head if it gets reflected. I've only played one Pit so I'm not too familiar with the match in depth. I just know that much.
 
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I saw the MK match ups, when I saw MK VS Kirby, the match up is 55:45 MK only. Ours is 60:40 MK, can someone explain?
 

MK26

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no, its not that bad...i think

why are we so pessimistic about our matchups?

EDIT: chart that has our opinion of the matchup from our POV and their opinion of teh matchup from their POV:

Code:
MK          40:55 - 5
Snake       40:60
Wario       45:55
Falco       55:40 - 5
Diddy       50:45 - 5
Dedede      45:45 - 10
Marth       40:60
G&W         40:60
Pikachu     45:50 - 5
Olimar      40:60
ICs         30:60 - 10
ROB         45:55
Kirby       ??:??
Lucario     45:60 + 5
ZSS         40:60
Toon Link   50:55 + 5
Pit         55:50 + 5
DK          45:55
Peach       50:55 + 5
Luigi       50:50
Fox         55:35 - 10
Wolf        55:50 + 5
Sonic       50:50
Sheik       50:45 - 5
Bowser      60:40
Zelda       55:60 + 15
PT          55:50
Squirtle    55:45
Ivysaur     60:40
Charizard   50:50
Ike         60:45 + 5
Lucas       50:45 - 5
Mario       55:50 + 5
Ness        50:50
Yoshi       60:50 + 10
Samus       55:40 - 5
Jigglypuff  60:45 + 5
Falcon      70:30
Link        60:35 - 5
Ganondorf   60:35 - 5
-'s are matchups where somebody's underestimating a character, and +'s are matchups where somebody's overestimating a character. Discuss. (Also, :D at all of Kirby's matchups being complete)
 

jiovanni007

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no, its not that bad...i think

why are we so pessimistic about our matchups?
I'm not pessimistic about all of them, just the ones that I have extensive experience with that are always troublesome. Really the only matches I feel that are worse than 40:60 opponent are MK, Marth, and GW. ICs, D3, and Snake are really the only 40:60 matches we have IMO and 40:60 is not a reason to counterpick, its a reason to play better. IDK though, sometimes I feel like my opinions fall on deaf ears for some odd reason when I have a decent amount of tourney experience and my write-ups come from experience and not just on paper principles.
 

Lord Viper

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no, its not that bad...i think

why are we so pessimistic about our matchups?
Good question, I believe mostly due to a few Kirby mains and other characters that play us feels like "Kirby's not a good character" or "Kirby's overrated", blah blah blah. Now I think match up ratio's are underestimating Kirby currently. )=
 
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Does that mean we have to rediscuss everything all over again and it even says in Smashwiki that Kirby has good match ups? We might just pull down Kirby to C or D tier? The Ganondorf VS Kirby match up should be 70:30.

If the number is green, it's the proper match up for me
If nothing was colored, it's okay

MK26 said:
MK 40:55 - 5
Snake 40:60
Wario 45:55
Falco 55:40 - 5
Diddy 50:45 - 5
Dedede 45:45 - 10
Marth 40:60
G&W 40:60
Pikachu 45:50 - 5
Olimar 40:60
ICs 30:60 - 10
ROB 45:55
Kirby ??:??
Lucario 45:60 + 5
ZSS 40:60
Toon Link 50:55 + 5
Pit 55:50 + 5
DK 45:55
Peach 50:55 + 5
Luigi 50:50
Fox 55:35 - 10
Wolf 55:50 + 5
Sonic 50:50
Sheik 50:45 - 5
Bowser 60:40
Zelda 55:60 + 15
PT 55:50
Squirtle 55:45
Ivysaur 60:40
Charizard 50:50
Ike 60:45 + 5
Lucas 50:45 - 5
Mario 55:50 + 5
Ness 50:50
Yoshi 60:50 + 10
Samus 55:40 - 5
Jigglypuff 60:45 + 5
Falcon 70:30
Link 60:35 - 5
Ganondorf 60:35 - 5
 

MK26

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The Kirby boards seem to be very inactive lately...

As for the chart, are those our match ups? If so, what I'm getting is that you want us to re discuss all of the characters with a - and +.
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well, tbh, it was intended to prove that we are pesimistic about our matchups
but all it ended up proving is that we're only pessimistic about our mathcups with characters above us on the tier list, and the discrepancies go both ways for characters below us

EDIT: im fairly sure the gradual increase of my overall typing speed is inveresely proportionate to my typing accuracy D:
 

jiovanni007

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Does that mean we have to rediscuss everything all over again and it even says in Smashwiki that Kirby has good match ups? We might just pull down Kirby to C or D tier? The Ganondorf VS Kirby match up should be 70:30.

If the number is green, it's the proper match up for me
If nothing was colored, it's okay
I agree close enough to this but care to explain how we have the advantage over Diddy and D3? I pretty much nailed D3 on the head when we discussed him about why that was a disadvantage, but Diddy seems even. Kinda like ROB (lots of air camping) but we run the air and he runs the ground with bananas.
 
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Uh wait, I was suppose to agree with 45:55 DDD sorry correction and about the Diddy, I'm just following what the Diddy mains say since I don't anything about Diddy.
 

Kewkky

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I also believe that the DIddy MU is slightly in our favor. We have to work less to get kills and rack up damage if we concentrate on aircamping whenever he has a banana in hand: we just hover close to the ground and land every once in a while, the Diddy, unless he's a machine, will try to guess when you will land and chuck the banana at you while we just hover around it. That pretty much takes care of the whole Diddy problem... Just 2nd jump and fastfall constantly, and land to regain jumps at random intervals. Bair is pretty sexy while we do this, cuz well, we don't gain much vertical height so it covers Diddy's hurtbox's height almost always.

But we're not discussing the Diddy MU, we'll leave that for later or w/e.
 
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