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There are always exceptions when it comes to every rule, but if a foundation of truth exists in the specific equation, then there's probably a reason why.
Let me remind you Meep is a top level national player, arguably the best Ice Climbers out there.
Exactly, and if nobody but like 3 dudes can beat him, and if lain is in a different part of the country doing the same thing, that says to me that ICs are top tier.
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Originally Posted by Tien2500
Anti didn't look too sharp in that vid. At the last stock he did a bair in the wrong direction right into a grab.
1. if you want to make the claim that you are better than anti and would fair better in that situation, be my guest.
2. thats the point. thats the reason why ICs should be top tier, anti made ONE spacing error, AT FOUR PERCENT, and died for it. on a stage that supposedly super slanted AGAINST the character.
Maining Sonic in tourneys is not a smart idea, it's just a delusional idea which might get you somewhere in your states bi-weeklies, but when it comes down to an actual national/big tournament, you'll place top 17 or something, which means nothing.
People whose comments i will automatically cosign to: MalcomM, Greenstreet, Tenki, salaboB, DJBrowny, (Divino)Kage
Or those TWO, I repeat, TWO players are just really good.
Samus is garbage, yet Xyro can beat some pretty good players, and I've seen him rape MetaKnight's and it's a 80:20 disadvantage.
The point being, Ice Climbers don't have the proper traits to show consistency in a large amount of players, which characters in S Tier easily have.
Maybe the Counterpick situation isn't a prime factor, but once separated? Ice Climbers are screwed over. That's a huge flaw keeping them back, who knows what could be responsible for such a thing happening.
Or those TWO, I repeat, TWO players are just really good.
According to people like reflex and vex, 2 people should be more than enough to show that a character is good and worth movin up in the tier list.
Samus is garbage, yet Xyro can beat some pretty good players, and I've seen him rape MetaKnight's and it's a 80:20 disadvantage.
Because every metaknight knows the samus matchup. matchup numbers are used when both people are playing at the best that their characters can be and know the matchup throughly. I dont see how xyro beating scrub metaknights that he is clearly better then, that have no idea how to fight his character proves anything, or should have even been brought up in the discussion.
The point being, Ice Climbers don't have the proper traits to show consistency in a large amount of players, which characters in S Tier easily have.
Were you one of the people that said that marth and/or ddd should be top tier? because based on results, and what actually being shown, im pretty sure that those 2 IC players are putting up more consistency than any of the players of the 2 characters that i just mentioned.
Maybe the Counterpick situation isn't a prime factor, but once separated? Ice Climbers are screwed over. That's a huge flaw keeping them back, who knows what could be responsible for such a thing happening.
i think you are overhyping and overrating this singular weakness. even though the two characters are seperated, it doesnt mean that they are helpless. both characters can still defend themselves. Ive even seen a nana CG an opponent all the way across the stage in to an f smash, while the player controlled IC was offstage recovering.
Maining Sonic in tourneys is not a smart idea, it's just a delusional idea which might get you somewhere in your states bi-weeklies, but when it comes down to an actual national/big tournament, you'll place top 17 or something, which means nothing.
People whose comments i will automatically cosign to: MalcomM, Greenstreet, Tenki, salaboB, DJBrowny, (Divino)Kage
1. if you want to make the claim that you are better than anti and would fair better in that situation, be my guest.
2. thats the point. thats the reason why ICs should be top tier, anti made ONE spacing error, AT FOUR PERCENT, and died for it. on a stage that supposedly super slanted AGAINST the character.
ICs are top tier.
So... because anti is way better than me (I'm not disputing this) I can't point out a giant mistake he made? He jumped right into their grab range while performing an aerial in the opposite direction. That's a really big mistake. That doesn't even qualify as a spacing error that's just plain ****ing up. Thats the equivelent of walking into Ike's fully charged Fsmash. Its not something that happens at typical high level play.
My point is you can't use something like that to prove that the ICs are good on RC.
i think you are overhyping and overrating this singular weakness. even though the two characters are seperated, it doesnt mean that they are helpless. both characters can still defend themselves. Ive even seen a nana CG an opponent all the way across the stage in to an f smash, while the player controlled IC was offstage recovering.
I'm not overhyping anything.
Okay, let me cross-examine and analyze your argument.
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According to people like reflex and vex, 2 people should be more than enough to show that a character is good and worth movin up in the tier list.
Subjective.
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Because every metaknight knows the samus matchup. matchup numbers are used when both people are playing at the best that their characters can be and know the matchup throughly. I dont see how xyro beating scrub metaknights that he is clearly better then, that have no idea how to fight his character proves anything, or should have even been brought up in the discussion.
Let's be realistic about this. MetaKnight's don't really need to thoroughly analyze and understand the matchup against Samus, she's still a horrible character that lacks versatile tools and offensive options in comparision to MetaKnight.
Xyro doesn't just beat "scrubs", the dude is from Texas. Hello? You're calling Texas a scrub region?
And you'd think that with regular practice, they'd understand the matchup better. Perhaps, or you could just say Xyro is uncharacteristically good with his main and can play her to an extremely deep level that most people aren't capable of reaching. Maybe Meep and Lain are examples of this? Ray_Kalm would probably rape you with his Ganondorf, does that mean said character should rise? Not really. It has to be consistent, so organizers of Tier Lists can say for certain the characters can regularly perform to that potential against the rest of the roster.
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Were you one of the people that said that marth and/or ddd should be top tier? because based on results, and what actually being shown, im pretty sure that those 2 IC players are putting up more consistency than any of the players of the 2 characters that i just mentioned.
I do not think Dedede or Marth should be S Tier. Without a doubt. MikeHAZE is winning Tournaments as Marth, against loads of MetaKnight's, when the matchup is somewhere around 70:30 MetaKnight's favour. Again, another example.
Don't really know about Dedede.
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Last edited by MarikYoshi; 11-03-2009 at 06:19 PM.
I think Marth/Meta matchup is 60:40...
Xyro is a great Samus. Once samus' learn the matchup it is possible with a little help from MK errors
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2. thats the point. thats the reason why ICs should be top tier, anti made ONE spacing error, AT FOUR PERCENT, and died for it. on a stage that supposedly super slanted AGAINST the character.
MK/IC would be the best primary and secondary characters to play XD just don't ban FD, and if they take you there (falcos or diddies), CP IC.
They are a top tier backup char, as is DK (that way you don't have the DDD problem).Character CPing is so ignored by the masses in this series of games.
Okay, let me cross-examine and analyze your argument.
Subjective.
fair enough
Let's be realistic about this. MetaKnight's don't really need to thoroughly analyze and understand the matchup against Samus, she's still a horrible character that lacks versatile tools and offensive options in comparision to MetaKnight.
You still need to somewhat understand the capabilities fo the character. if you let samus get above you with time to start a move, being metaknight isnt going to make you not get spiked... my point is that you brought up the fact that the matchup is 80-20. and that fact only applys if both characters are playing their characters to the max, and know the specific matchup.
Xyro doesn't just beat "scrubs", the dude is from Texas. Hello? You're calling Texas a scrub region?
Does xyro beat dojo's meta? does he beat razer? does he beat gnes? or espy? or even dmg? no. he beats scrubs. just because xyro and texas as a region is really good, doesnt mean that there arent still bad people out there.
And you'd think that with regular practice, they'd understand the matchup better. Perhaps, or you could just say Xyro is uncharacteristically good with his main and can play her to an extremely deep level that most people aren't capable of reaching.
i believe and agree with this statement. but that doesnt change the fact that Im pretty sure xyro has never even cracked the top 10 in his own tourneys.
Maybe Meep and Lain are examples of this?
Meep and Lain win constantly. and like I said, the only people that can consistently beat them are pretty much regarded as the best players in the world. (m2k, ally, chu, anther) but the fact that there are certain people that can reach those levels with the characters are what the tier list should be based on.
Ray_Kalm would probably rape you with his Ganondorf,
Ray is madd cool, but I would obliterate that guy.
does that mean said character should rise? Not really. It has to be consistent, so organizers of Tier Lists can say for certain the characters can regularly perform to that potential against the rest of the roster.
no no noooooo sir
I do not think Dedede or Marth should be S Tier. Without a doubt. MikeHAZE is winning Tournaments as Marth, against loads of MetaKnight's, when the matchup is somewhere around 70:30 MetaKnight's favour. Again, another example.
Don't really know about Dedede.
Who wins tourneys with marth.
mikeHAZE
who wins tourneys with ICs
Lain Meep
that says to me, that ICs are a better character than marth (opinion) and marth is usually seen as one of the barrier characters between top and high tier. so as i see it, if the ICs are better than that, then they are top tier.
thats how I see it anyway.
EDIT lol at the above post.
smash series focuses on counterpicking characters, more than any other fighting game ever.
Maining Sonic in tourneys is not a smart idea, it's just a delusional idea which might get you somewhere in your states bi-weeklies, but when it comes down to an actual national/big tournament, you'll place top 17 or something, which means nothing.
People whose comments i will automatically cosign to: MalcomM, Greenstreet, Tenki, salaboB, DJBrowny, (Divino)Kage
ICs are top tier. Mid-Bottom of top tier due to some upper end matchup difficulties and counterpicking issues, but I can see them breaching top 6. The ability to punish any mistake or hard read with a stock loss counterbalances their incapacities when separated or alone.
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