Newbie Mafia 3 | Jungle Republic | Ovah. Who won?

#HBC | marshy · Nov 15, 2009

1st Vote Count (There'll be one at the beginning of every page, 40 posts per page)

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Mayling (1) - Xiivi
Xiivi (2) - Tom, frozenflame751
frozenflame751 (2) - Ronike, -Hilt-
-Hilt- (1) - Sold2

Not voting (6): Cello_Marl, Delvro, soaring-raptor-blast, Mister Eric, Mayling, Tandora

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With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Tandora · Nov 15, 2009

Cello_Marl said:
Is that because scum would never vote hammer and it would likely be a quick lynch
due to an overeager inexperienced townie player? (Eyes Tandora)
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for being careful when we get so close to lynch. But since I know some people here are fairly new, such as Tandora and raptor, it's important to explain that such a quick vote would cast suspicion on people who are otherwise more likely innocent than not can only be harmful to us all.

I don't know about you guys, but lynching feels good. >.>

I think your arguments are pretty solid, Cello.

Mister Eric · Nov 15, 2009

eenie meenie miney vote
catch a werewolf by the toe
if he hollers don't let him/her go
eenie meenie miney vote

Xiivi · Nov 16, 2009

Tandora said:
I notice you haven't defended yourself yet. That seems suspicious to me. >.>

Please explain to me what Mayling should be defending against.

frozenflame751 said:
Vote: Xiivi

Too helpful. It's a FARCE!

Too Helpful, too townie same thing.

Cello_Marl said:
By the way, was there any particular reason you said werewolf specifically and not some kind of bad guy in general?

'Cause that's what she is.

Cello_Marl said:
I think a person trying to vote under the guise of the RVS might subconsciously think in terms of his or her own scum type.

So you're saying I'm a werewolf eh? That's what you're implying after all.

Cello_Marl said:
I've seen many players on mafiascum.net who were able to change the RVS into an actual fact gathering session. Encouraging otherwise seems unproductive. Unless you were going to ask people why they randomly voted the way they did?

You get everyone to participate in the RVS until someone does something that draws attention. You build a case off of something small/quite possibly meaningless which pulls the group out of the RVS and into discussion. If people don't participate in the RVS the game could stall out because of it. Essentially you're helping to pull us out the RVS right now.

Cello_Marl said:
Is that because scum would never vote hammer and it would likely be a quick lynch due to an overeager inexperienced townie player? (Eyes Tandora) Don't get me wrong, I'm all for being careful when we get so close to lynch. But since I know some people here are fairly new, such as Tandora and raptor, it's important to explain that such a quick vote would cast suspicion on people who are otherwise more likely innocent than not can only be harmful to us all.

It's very easy for people to make a vote that is a hammer-vote and feign ignorance over the fact the person was at L-1. If you remind people, it prevents scum from making this ploy and getting away with it. Any reason you felt the need to make sure Tandora and raptor were labeled as new right now? After all, this is supposed to be a "newbie" game. Seems a bit like early buddying.

Cello_Marl said:
Indeed...

Do you have a link to this game? I'd like to read it in order to see how people in this game
played in it. Also, was everyone's alias the same (that participated) or are there any names I should know?

It's on the first page of the dGames forum here. I'd recommend you read through some of the completed games here if you're looking to find meta.

Cello_Marl said:
That's not OMGUS. That's bandwagoning, and he stated as such himself. This sounds more like you trying to use an easily exploitable and memorable term to garner favor for your opinion. I've only played once with Tom, and it was in AIM, not forum, but I don't think he'd try an obviously scummy bus early on.
Have you played with him before? Can you point me to a game that suggests otherwise?

Right...

Of course it's OMGUS. I voted Tom's werewolf partner, and he responded by "Oh my god you suck for voting my werewolf partner. Vote: you" Just in better words.

Why are you bringing up bussing?

The games I've played with Tom are currently ongoing.

If you want meta, I'd suggest checking this forum here and reading through the games.

Now, the final question. Why no vote?

Tandora said:
I don't know about you guys, but lynching feels good. >.>

I think your arguments are pretty solid, Cello.

Going to buddy right back him, eh?

Mister Eric said:
eenie meenie miney vote
catch a werewolf by the toe
if he hollers don't let him/her go
eenie meenie miney vote

Why no vote?

vote: soaring-raptor-blast

Post for us, you're friend has already brought your name up afterall!

Xiivi · Nov 16, 2009

unvote: vote: soaring-raptor-blast

Too busy attempting to remember the name to remember to unvote.

Mister Eric · Nov 16, 2009

me is not a big fan of the random voting process.

Mayling · Nov 16, 2009

Cello_Marl said:
By the way, was there any particular reason you said werewolf specifically and not some kind of bad guy in general? I think a person trying to vote under the guise of the RVS might subconsciously think in terms of his or her own scum type.

I like this logic.

cello_marl said:
Is that because scum would never vote hammer and it would likely be a quick lynch
due to an overeager inexperienced townie player? (Eyes Tandora)
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for being careful when we get so close to lynch. But since I know some people here are fairly new, such as Tandora and raptor, it's important to explain that such a quick vote would cast suspicion on people who are otherwise more likely innocent than not can only be harmful to us all.

I'm not sure how fair it is to call them inexperienced noobs anymore. Both of them have had their fair share of aim mafia, and aren't as bad as others we play with (note that's why they're here and not the others.) Discouraging their bad habits, such as Tandora's twitchy finger when it comes to the hammer button, is what we should take note of.

However, it works both ways in my opinion. If no one pressed the hammer button, there'd never be a lynch.

xiivii said:
Any reason you felt the need to make sure Tandora and raptor were labeled as new right now? After all, this is supposed to be a "newbie" game. Seems a bit like early buddying.

How is calling someone a newbie buddying? I'd be offended, personally.

Mister Eric said:
me is not a big fan of the random voting process.

Me either.

But if you want it to move away from the random voting stage, I suggest fine combing through the thread and posting anything at all you find questionable/suspicious. Anything. That includes super small things like wording.

Ronike · Nov 16, 2009

@ Cello: you make a good point about Xivii, however, the argument has too much WIFOM in it to stand alone. It does add to the scuminess level of Xivii, but by itself it is not lynch worthy.

In addition, there is no reason for you to be calling other people particularly bad or what not at this or any stage really. All it does is promote negative feelings for each other, which goes against the main reason for playing these games: fun. And quite frankly, you're just as new to this as they are, so who are you to call them bad? AIMafia and Forumafia are two completely separate and different entities, and one can be awful at one and great at the other. I know personally I can't play aimafia because I like to sit and think rather than be pressured into doing something really quickly.

To everyone who is taking what Xivii said about hammering wrong, there is a difference between hammering someone who everyone genuinely wants lynched because they are scummy, and lynching someone who is L-1 from a pressure wagon (a bandwagon formed to either get someone active, change their playstyle, or to reveal information) or a joke wagon. The latter is what Xivii is referring to as generally hammering on a pressure wagon or joke wagon is done by scum to end the day so they can get their night kill.

@ Everyone who hates RVS: Again, this plays towards the main reason to play mafia, fun, but in addition often garners small scum tells such as the one Cello picked up on Xivii that can be useful late game. Plus, you try convincing the vets, especially KevinM, Tom, or Marshy, to skip RVS. It won't be pretty...

Well, as consolation to anyone who hates RVS, it seems we are already almost out of it... So Unvote: FF

Tandora · Nov 16, 2009

Ronike said:
@ Cello: you make a good point about Xivii, however, the argument has too much WIFOM in it to stand alone. It does add to the scuminess level of Xivii, but by itself it is not lynch worthy.

I've seen people lynched for less. What level of scuminess are you saying is needed before it is "lynchworthy"?

Ronike said:
In addition, there is no reason for you to be calling other people particularly bad or what not at this or any stage really.

I didn't particularly catch that in his post.

Ronike said:
All it does is promote negative feelings for each other, which goes against the main reason for playing these games: fun.

I think we are all here to have fun, but at the same time the essential spirit of mafia is to slowly eliminate our "friends" because we think they've out to get us. The game is trying to make us promote negative feelings for our roles so we'll kill off our opponents. I think when playing Mafia, a good mentality is to not read TOO much into accusations. =)

Ronike said:
To everyone who is taking what Xivii said about hammering wrong, there is a difference between hammering someone who everyone genuinely wants lynched because they are scummy, and lynching someone who is L-1 from a pressure wagon (a bandwagon formed to either get someone active, change their playstyle, or to reveal information) or a joke wagon. The latter is what Xivii is referring to as generally hammering on a pressure wagon or joke wagon is done by scum to end the day so they can get their night kill.

It's a fair cop.

Ronike said:
@ Everyone who hates RVS: Again, this plays towards the main reason to play mafia, fun, but in addition often garners small scum tells such as the one Cello picked up on Xivii that can be useful late game. Plus, you try convincing the vets, especially KevinM, Tom, or Marshy, to skip RVS. It won't be pretty...

Well, as consolation to anyone who hates RVS, it seems we are already almost out of it... So Unvote: FF

Eh, I understand the necessity of RVS, I just would rather have another medium. Maybe like that movie Clue, we can all make introductions in character about our roles. "I'm Miss Scarlett, I'm a hostess,....nothing suspicious here."

I realize it would make way too much work on the mods, but at least then we could make accusations based on the character information given and not a the player. (Hopefully).

Just my two cents.

Tandora · Nov 16, 2009

Xiivi said:
Please explain to me what Mayling should be defending against.

Um, your accusation of her being a werewolf?

Part of my statement was to get my feet wet on this forum. Part of it was being silly. Should have added an icon. Cannot remember if I did or not. Finally, I don't know. May seemed to completely dismiss the claim to me. I suppose that is actually a good strategy to not look guilty, but my gut felt that she should have said *something* against it. Of course, May's played a lot more so she knows a lot more of the little tricks.

Xiivi said:
It's very easy for people to make a vote that is a hammer-vote and feign ignorance over the fact the person was at L-1. If you remind people, it prevents scum from making this ploy and getting away with it. Any reason you felt the need to make sure Tandora and raptor were labeled as new right now? After all, this is supposed to be a "newbie" game. Seems a bit like early buddying.

I think he did that for me because I tend to claim "newbie" during AIM and they are making sure I don't fall back on that any more. I've made some legit "noob" errors and claims, but I've also admitted I've played enough AIM games that it is quickly not getting to be legit. So if I make a noob mistake, they're gonna lynch me.

It's a lot of pressure. =(

Delvro · Nov 16, 2009

With two anti-town groups out there, I thought it would be a good idea to set up some universally used terminology, so that we don't confuse each other with our different usage of the same words. Somethink like:

Townie: Pro-town aligned + Seer
Goon: one of the mafia members
Werewolf: The other anti-town group that makes night kills
Mafia: the name of the game we are playing, not to be confused with a Goon.

Also, I don't think this is anyone's first mafia game. Most of us here, while he haven't been playing for years, know how the game works and what things mean. Most people have played at least as much as I have. Using the noob card whenever someone makes a booboo seems, to me, like an easy excuse to let a wolfy off the hook, and it will make me suspicious.

Delvro · Nov 16, 2009

^ that post was made before Tandora's

SPecifically though, what I mean is not that it's not ok to make noob mistakes. What's bad is to make noob mistakes and then go "Oh... it's nothing.... I'm just a big ol' noob!"

That just screams "hey look here's an easy cop out for a wolf". Might just be me though.

Ronike · Nov 16, 2009

again, aim mafia and forum mafia is very different, and swf forum mafia and mafia scum forum is very different as well. Here, we tend to take our time with our days when possible and come to lynch the scummiest player. Thus it is not enough to just have a single wifom point to get someone lynched

Town = um... The town
scum = anyone anti-town
wolf = werewolf side
mafia = mafia. No reason to further catagorize this into talking about the game and the scum team, it should be obvious from context

Mayling · Nov 16, 2009

Tandora said:
Part of my statement was to get my feet wet on this forum. Part of it was being silly. Should have added an icon. Cannot remember if I did or not. Finally, I don't know. May seemed to completely dismiss the claim to me. I suppose that is actually a good strategy to not look guilty, but my gut felt that she should have said *something* against it. Of course, May's played a lot more so she knows a lot more of the little tricks.
(

I felt I did defend myself... Just by not saying "Wut! I'm innocent!" [eyes tanny] That would lead me no where. Instead, I chose to ask Xiivi, "Out of everyone here, why choose me for RVS?" I thought that perhaps I did something beforehand he "picked up on" and wanted to question it, and I felt this was the best question to ask to actually get information.

The question didn't lead me anywhere. He replied that it was because of my avatar. I dropped it there, because I couldn't gather any more information, and his reason for RVS had no substance, like I thought. It was just...random.

Tandora · Nov 16, 2009

Mayling said:
I felt I did defend myself... Just by not saying "Wut! I'm innocent!" [eyes tanny] That would lead me no where. Instead, I chose to ask Xiivi, "Out of everyone here, why choose me for RVS?" I thought that perhaps I did something beforehand he "picked up on" and wanted to question it, and I felt this was the best question to ask to actually get information.

Yeah, I'm bad about that. You've all seen it in AIM. =p

Mayling said:
The question didn't lead me anywhere. He replied that it was because of my avatar. I dropped it there, because I couldn't gather any more information, and his reason for RVS had no substance, like I thought. It was just...random.

I think I tend to sink my teeth into whatever decision I make. I will change my vote if someone convinces me or if I think it will hammer, but if I actually get a vibe someone is guilty I really get into it. I think that is why I suck at random votes. Even with no evidence to support my vote, I'll stick to it to the bitter end convincing myself someone is guilty. So, I guess I WIFOM myself.

Mayling · Nov 16, 2009

Multiquoting: a lesson. (111 posts later, but I didn't realize how to do this until yesterday...)

Multiquoting is useful. A couple has asked me for help on it already, so I wanted to let everyone know how it works.

To multiquote, click multiquote. This will be the first thing quoted in your response. Continue to click multiquote for the posts you want to quote until you're finished. Then click "add reply."

This is super handy compared to AIB forums. @_@

Ronike · Nov 16, 2009

Or you can hit quote on the final thing you want to quote instead of multiquote.

DtJ S2n · Nov 16, 2009

Oh wow you guys talk a lot and make a lot of good points, considering it's still early in Day 1. On AiB mafia, we'd still be "lol I'm tony the tiger," "lynch tony the tiger guys." I'll say I'm impressed.

I can't really make a convincing argument for anyone myself yet, but I like all the discussion going on. I'll tell you guys when I notice something.

Unvote: Hilt

Cello_Marl · Nov 16, 2009

MisterEric said:
eenie meenie miney vote
catch a werewolf by the toe
if he hollers don't let him/her go
eenie meenie miney vote

Yet another example of what I was talking about.

Xiivi said:
'Cause that's what she is.

Still grasping at that, hmm?

Xiivi said:
So you're saying I'm a werewolf eh? That's what you're implying after all.

I didn't vote for you. I don't have any evidence that you are any anti-town role, but the statements that you made are certainly the sort of speech patterns that we'll all want to keep in mind should the game go poorly and we end up in a LyLo situation.

Xiivi said:
You get everyone to participate in the RVS until someone does something that draws attention. You build a case off of something small/quite possibly meaningless which pulls the group out of the RVS and into discussion. If people don't participate in the RVS the game could stall out because of it. Essentially you're helping to pull us out the RVS right now.

Yes, we did. No need to be modest. After all, if not for your posts we wouldn't be where we are.

Xiivi said:
It's very easy for people to make a vote that is a hammer-vote and feign ignorance over the fact the person was at L-1. If you remind people, it prevents scum from making this ploy and getting away with it.

This is exactly what I was saying in my response to you, although looking at it now, my response did seem a little awkwardly phrased. I was just saying that you should explain that part to insure we all know why you wouldn't be forgiving.

Xiivi said:
Why are you bringing up bussing?

A lot of people only think of bussing in terms of an anti-town player jumping on a bandwagon to lynch a fellow member to throw off suspicion. Really though, it's just any attempt to not be associated with his or her partner(s). As you said, I seemed to be implying that you were furry and lusting for our blood. I was saying that I don't think he'd try to distance himself from you in such a manner. In other words, I was thinking that such a thing was probably more of an RVS stage vote than a bus.

Xiivi said:
Now, the final question. Why no vote?

Ronike said:
@ Cello: you make a good point about Xivii, however, the argument has too much WIFOM in it to stand alone. It does add to the scuminess level of Xivii, but by itself it is not lynch worthy.

I don't see anyone as overtly suspicious. Just slightly suspicious.
Ronike's statement sums up my own sentiments well.

Xiivi said:
Any reason you felt the need to make sure Tandora and raptor were labeled as new right now?

Mayling said:
I'm not sure how fair it is to call them inexperienced noobs anymore...Discouraging their bad habits...is what we should take note of.

Information for the town is always more useful than ignorance. I was just trying to let everyone know what I know about how they play. True, it may be different in a forum setting, but something is better than nothing. Mayling's statement is correct, though. That should be our focus.

Ronike said:
In addition, there is no reason for you to be calling other people particularly bad or what not at this or any stage really.

I apologize if I offended anyone. I didn't mean it that way if I seemed to.

Ronike said:
I know personally I can't play aimafia because I like to sit and think rather than be pressured into doing something really quickly.

This is good information to know about you. I like AIM mafia because it's interesting to see how people react quickly under pressure.

Delvro said:
With two anti-town groups out there, I thought it would be a good idea to set up some universally used terminology...

Ronike said:
Town = um... The town
scum = anyone anti-town
wolf = werewolf side
mafia = mafia. No reason to further catagorize this into talking about the game and the scum team, it should be obvious from context.

Ronike's looks fine to me. I'm assuming he's played games with wolves and/or mafia before (being listed as an experienced player and all, I'm guessing that's a safe bet), and so I'm also thinking these are the most common terms. There's no reason for us to get used to a unique set of terms, then end up playing on other forums and get confused.

Often, I find that I end up not voting at all on day 1. Usually, someone's already lynched by the time I make up my mind. However, when I do vote, I try not to go for lurkers on that basis alone. That is doubly the case here in forum mafia, since we can easily get a replacement that will actually contribute.

On that note, is prodding from the mod done on the open forum or is it done via private message? Can we request prodding and/or replacement (for an inactive player)?

Tandora · Nov 16, 2009

Cello_Marl said:
Often, I find that I end up not voting at all on day 1. Usually, someone's already lynched by the time I make up my mind. However, when I do vote, I try not to go for lurkers on that basis alone. That is doubly the case here in forum mafia, since we can easily get a replacement that will actually contribute.

Iono, I think going for lurkers is more valid on forum since they had MUCH more time to respond at least a little. If you cannot pop out two or three responses over a week, are you really playing? REALLY?

YMMV

Cello_Marl · Nov 16, 2009

Tandora said:
Iono, I think going for lurkers is more valid on forum since they had MUCH more time to respond at least a little. If you cannot pop out two or three responses over a week, are you really playing? REALLY?

YMMV

That's exactly why we wouldn't want to lynch that person. It just as likely to be a lazy, uninterested townie as a scum. Let a replacement come in instead of giving the scum a free daykill via lynch.

Ronike · Nov 16, 2009

Lurking is kind of a murky subject. There is good reason to both lynch them, and leave them be. As a general rule of thumb, its best to pressure wagon the coaster/lurker, but if no other good opportunities present themselves, an inactive lynch can be a good option. A good example of a bad time to kill an inactive is Bad Idea Mafia D2(note: this mafia was not a normal mafia game, so if you want to read through it, make sure you read the opening rules) and as for an example of a good time to do so... Oh, Tomafia 3 D1. It started as a pressure wagon and we ended up killing a scum

TBH, there is almost no reason to distinguish between a wolf and a mafia member, or any such thing. Town needs to be killing all scum, and probably shouldn't need to individually hunt for wolf or mafia. Scum is the general word used.

Also, an interesting anecdote, I've never played in a wolf game, but games with multiple scum teams are common, and the above is the norm.

soaring-raptor-blast · Nov 16, 2009

hello! finally here!

I will read through and post my thoughts when I think of them, but dont wait up, im slow

Tandora · Nov 17, 2009

Cello_Marl said:
That's exactly why we wouldn't want to lynch that person. It just as likely to be a lazy, uninterested townie as a scum. Let a replacement come in instead of giving the scum a free daykill via lynch.

How does replacements work? Wouldn't that be a townie giveaway? Oh, so and so was lurking so he gets replaced, but other so and so was only being mafia scum so he doesn't? Since being quiet seems to be a common mafia tactic. Or am I reading too much into this?

Tandora · Nov 17, 2009

soaring-raptor-blast said:
hello! finally here!

I will read through and post my thoughts when I think of them, but dont wait up, im slow

Where you been, whiz? =D

Or have you been doing your usual scum lurking and are carefully covering your butt? XD

Tandora · Nov 17, 2009

Ronike said:
Lurking is kind of a murky subject.

Talking about lurking has gotten me thinking of who to vote for. I went over the posts so far and counted who has posted and how often. Here are my results:

xiivi - 5
ronike - 6
tom - 2
sold -3
may - 7
Tandora - 9
frozenflame - 2
hilt -1
cello - 4
mr eric - 2
delvro - 2
soaring - 1

In all fairness, I should consider my count smaller because I'm still learning to multiquote. (Thanks for the tips btw, they really worked!)

Xiivi and Ronike have been pretty vocal, but they are part of the "oldhats" showing us newer players the ropes. Mayling is pretty vocal too, but I consider that to be typical for her from aim games. Tom and FF are both also suppose to be examples of play like X and Ron, so I find it suspicious they haven't posted more, especially since Tom has over 2k posts under his belt in general forum. Hilt's lack of posts also is suspicious.

However the one I get the biggest warning signals from is Eric. He's posted twice which is closer to the median (if I am remembering my math terms correctly), but his posts have been completely informationless.

Mister Eric said:
eenie meenie miney vote
catch a werewolf by the toe
if he hollers don't let him/her go
eenie meenie miney vote

Mister Eric said:
me is not a big fan of the random voting process.

Basically, he's only commented in regards to the RVS without really contributing anything. I'm not sure of his general play style but seems to be a good fluff buffer to me.

So, in the interest of getting my feet wet on voting for forum play. VOTE MISTER ERIC

Mayling · Nov 17, 2009

Tandora said:
How does replacements work? Wouldn't that be a townie giveaway? Oh, so and so was lurking so he gets replaced, but other so and so was only being mafia scum so he doesn't? Since being quiet seems to be a common mafia tactic. Or am I reading too much into this?

Basically if you're not contributing much to the game, the mod can force a replacement. If you're not happy with the game, or bored with it, or it's too much, you can ask for a replacement. Replacement =/= wolf. Although, when a replacement occurs, it's jarring imo, because you have two different personalities conflicting with the same role. Replacements helps bad guys, imo, because almost anything the first bad guy did can be dismissed with "oh well, he's gone now... give his replacement a chance." So, I hope no replacing happens!

Tandora said:
Basically, he's only commented in regards to the RVS without really contributing anything. I'm not sure of his general play style but seems to be a good fluff buffer to me.

I think your gauge to this was interesting and insightful. I just have to let it be known that Eric's playstyle is pretty bizarre. I'm not sure how much he's changing it this game... but the other game he actually role played a character out, and generally his posts mimicked the first one he made.

That's not to say putting a little pressure on him won't be good. ^_^

Xiivi · Nov 17, 2009

Mayling said:
How is calling someone a newbie buddying? I'd be offended, personally.

It would be very easy to write off something suspicious/scummy they did as "Oh, well like I said before, they're the most new to the game. Can't fault them for that."

Ronike said:
@ Cello: you make a good point about Xivii, however, the argument has too much WIFOM in it to stand alone. It does add to the scuminess level of Xivii, but by itself it is not lynch worthy.

Where did Cello imply that it is lynch-worthy?

For those who agree about this whole "sub-conscious" thing and accusing someone of the alignment you are in the RVS:
The mafia faction can scumhunt by actively looking for werewolves.
The werewolf faction can scumhunt by actively looking for mafia.
It would make more sense from my eyes for one to consciously accuse someone of being the other faction if they are scum.

Regardless, do you have any backup to this subconscious theory?

If people really want to look into my random vote, I'll lay it out for you.
I scrolled up some from Marshy's daystart post. I saw Mayling's Pit avatar. That made me decide to pick her for my random vote. I thought of Tom's "Vote Hylian: He's Mafia" post in Grammys Mafia [can't show you guys since it's in a private forum] and essentially copied it. I don't see werewolf games often, and took the chance to call someone a big bad werewolf.

There you go, pull what you want from it. Just don't reach too much.

Keep in mind it's always easy to attack the most vocal players, since they are the ones who put themselves out there after all. Which is why not participating in part of the game, be it the RVS or the discussion process itself (lurking) is anti-town. If everyone simply sat back and waited for things to happen, then whoever takes the first step is the easiest to fault. Simply sitting back and waiting to place your vote on someone causes people to not get a good read on you and less likely to trust you.

What I'm getting at is:
Not participating in the RVS is simply waiting for others to do the work for you. If you are town you are simply sitting and waiting for scum to direct you. When everyone participates in the RVS, discussion does arise and things get serious faster without forcing a select few players into controlling a lot of the discussion by themselves. This makes it easy for them to suspect each other which is something scum would love to see. This is what makes active lurking scummy.

As for the comment about game flavour. This is a basic set-up with none. However there are many games we host here that do have flavour, and it is very important that people only claim their name/role/etc... when they absolutely have to (being at L-1, LyLo, etc...). If we all had names and corresponding roles, everyone claiming them would only benefit the scum. Scum would be able to lie and blend in with everyone else, while seeing the town's claims and getting a better judgment on who to kill at night as a potential powerrole. "This person claimed Tiki Tiki the Witch Doctor. They're probably the Seer. Let's nightkill them." See what I'm getting at?

Town should not rely on flavour/power roles/nightkills to do their scumhunting and instead do it the old fashioned way.

unvote: vote: mister eric

Let's get the ball rolling. Mister Eric, why do you make a post which makes it seem as if you're wanting to make a random vote (eenie meenie miney vote implies randomness from my view) and then proceed to not make one and explain that you don't like the RVS?

Delvro · Nov 17, 2009

Ronike said:
Lurking is kind of a murky subject. There is good reason to both lynch them, and leave them be. As a general rule of thumb, its best to pressure wagon the coaster/lurker, but if no other good opportunities present themselves, an inactive lynch can be a good option. A good example of a bad time to kill an inactive is Bad Idea Mafia D2(note: this mafia was not a normal mafia game, so if you want to read through it, make sure you read the opening rules) and as for an example of a good time to do so... Oh, Tomafia 3 D1. It started as a pressure wagon and we ended up killing a scum

TBH, there is almost no reason to distinguish between a wolf and a mafia member, or any such thing. Town needs to be killing all scum, and probably shouldn't need to individually hunt for wolf or mafia. Scum is the general word used.

Also, an interesting anecdote, I've never played in a wolf game, but games with multiple scum teams are common, and the above is the norm.

Of course town wants to be killing all scum... but let's not forget that wolves have a chance of night-killing mafia members.

IMO The best case scenario would be :
Day 1 kill a wolfie --
Day 2 + 3 kill some mafia -- during this time the other surviving wolf might kill mafia too
Once some mafia are dead kill the other wolf

Of course that's all assuming that we'll be able to distinguish between mafia actions and wolf actions. But still, that's the preferred situation in my eyes.

Ronike · Nov 17, 2009

Why would you only want to kill one wolf? He'd still
have the kill. At Any rate, I don't want to rely on scum to kill scum, so the best thing would be killing off both wolves so that we control who gets killed.

Of course, there's not really any way to search for wolves instead of mafia, so why don't we get off that and just go after scum in general.

Delvro · Nov 17, 2009

No, it IS possible to discriminate suspected scum into the two separate groups, and we do it by observing the actions between two suspected scum. How are they talking with each other? Do the actions between them seem scripted? Are they ignoring each other? Etc etc....

We can't say for certain that "person x is mafia and person y is wolf" but we CAN say whether "hey these guys are in the same group" or not.

I honestly think that separating the two groups is crucial. After all, there are 5 (!!!!) anti- town roles. There are only 7 town. We can't afford to just chase after whoever.

#HBC | FrozeηFlame · Nov 17, 2009

Few things:

Killing werewolves > killing goons. Werewolves can reduce town numbers outside of day phase. This is the single greatest threat to the town. Though, as ronike said, it's more or less impossible to actively scumhunt for werewolves exclusively, it should be understood by town players that werewolves are the better play over mafiats in almost any normal situation.

To comment on lurking/inactivity/replacing: The significant difference between lurking and being inactive is that a lurker is deliberately playing the minimal amount possible in order to stay out of the spotlight and contribute as little as possible. An inactive player simply isn't playing for any number of other reasons, whether they be disinterest, general busyness, or what have you. Inactive players can and often are replaced if replacements are available. The mod taking such an action should IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM LEND TO THE IDEA THAT A PLAYER IS MORE OR LESS LIKELY TO BE ANY ALIGNMENT. A responsible mod should never let a player's alignment influence his decision to replace said player.

As has been said though, replacements can make getting reads on players very difficult, and are especially tumultuous late in the game. Two conflicting personalities representing a single unrevealed role can make things very confusing for an actively scumhunting town. Simply put, replacements, though often necessary, do not make for healthy mafia games.

To comment on Tandora's post analysis:

Though there is merit to what you've done tandora, you should realize it is awfully premature to be using a post count to analyze players this early in the game. Ronike's play in FFVII mafia is a great example of using a player's post history in both quality and numbers against them to pin them as scum (he did it to me BTW). Like I said, there is merit, but such an analysis this early in the game will be quite skewed, and will likely only serve to tunnel vision people.

However, I do commend how you've extended your findings to a discussable topic. The point you raise about mister eric is quite interesting. General apathy and unwillingness to participate in RVS is a stance scum will often take out of fear of being linked to it in some unfathomable way and resulting in a lynch. It's an overly preventative mentality common among scum. I'm willing to help put the pressure on and see where this goes.

Unvote: Xiivi Vote: Mister Eric

Ronike · Nov 17, 2009

Delvro, I think you misunderstood me. Yes, there are certain ways to discriminate the two factions from one another, but there isn't really any way (barring massive slip-up) to tell whether the group is mafia or wolf. In addition, in a game where the wolves are a group of two and the mafia a group of three, it is hard to tell (especially this early in the game) whether anybody is ignoring the other, or allying too much with another, or if the two simply agree on an idea. Not even to mention that (unless I'm mistaken), you have all come into this game knowing each other at least a bit, so i know some of you already do/n't like each other very much, and thus may be more dis/inclined to listen to the ideas of said person, further confusing the issue.

Now, after writing that, even I'm a bit confused, and there lies the problem with trying to use said idea to discriminate.

In addition, I don't understand your final point. How does taking a group of scum and separating them into mafia and wolves help keep us on track? Why don't we just lynch the scummiest?

Mister Eric · Nov 17, 2009

Tandora said:
Talking about lurking has gotten me thinking of who to vote for. I went over the posts so far and counted who has posted and how often. Here are my results:

xiivi - 5
ronike - 6
tom - 2
sold -3
may - 7
Tandora - 9
frozenflame - 2
hilt -1
cello - 4
mr eric - 2
delvro - 2
soaring - 1

In all fairness, I should consider my count smaller because I'm still learning to multiquote. (Thanks for the tips btw, they really worked!)

Xiivi and Ronike have been pretty vocal, but they are part of the "oldhats" showing us newer players the ropes. Mayling is pretty vocal too, but I consider that to be typical for her from aim games. Tom and FF are both also suppose to be examples of play like X and Ron, so I find it suspicious they haven't posted more, especially since Tom has over 2k posts under his belt in general forum. Hilt's lack of posts also is suspicious.

However the one I get the biggest warning signals from is Eric. He's posted twice which is closer to the median (if I am remembering my math terms correctly), but his posts have been completely informationless.

Basically, he's only commented in regards to the RVS without really contributing anything. I'm not sure of his general play style but seems to be a good fluff buffer to me.

So, in the interest of getting my feet wet on voting for forum play. VOTE MISTER ERIC

Understandable reasoning, but what information can I give on the first day? First days are fun days, to me anyways or from what I've seen from the only other game I've played before. Not really a whole lot of information to gather.

Also, if I live long enough, you get to see that I enjoy role playing a lot to with the game and as of right now, I'm just enthused to watch in this game of russian roulette rather than partake in it.

Until I actually have information...

VOTE: Still no one

Mister Eric · Nov 17, 2009

frozenflame751 said:
However, I do commend how you've extended your findings to a discussable topic. The point you raise about mister eric is quite interesting. General apathy and unwillingness to participate in RVS is a stance scum will often take out of fear of being linked to it in some unfathomable way and resulting in a lynch. It's an overly preventative mentality common among scum. I'm willing to help put the pressure on and see where this goes.

Unvote: Xiivi Vote: Mister Eric

Sowwie for dbl post but I just noticed this.
I'm not going to vote to have anyone lynched until I find reasoning for it.
that's how I play. when I get some time, either later tonight or in the morning some time, I'll start getting into character =]

But if you want to question me, I'm up for that. Just putting the heat on me tho because I'm not voting, I can't do much about that unless I choose to conform (which is lame, I likes me own playstyle).

Ronike · Nov 17, 2009

So... You plan to just sit on the sidelines? Instead of potentially trying to create something to lynch on by getting a scum to slip up? Or voicing concerns you have noticed? Unnaccepatable. Thats lurking/coasting. A very common scum strategem.

Vote: Eric

This comes off when you shape up (or if Im misreading it)

Mister Eric · Nov 17, 2009

Well, first of all I still consider myself a newb since I haven't even finished my first game I can link you to that if you want to see how I play. I guess I just don't understand the first day that well. How can you vote when you dont have any leads? I figured people would get to know each other or get more into character first. I prefer playing the game longer than day 1 >.> so if I have to throw out a vote I eventually will, I just dont wanna cause what kind of person randomly picks on people for doin nothing? If I do vote, I wont have much reasoning. It would be as much as how xiivi voted for maymay for having a Pit avatar lol. And that kind of voting just seems silly.

I just try not to conform with what everyone else is doing (especially if it makes no sense to me yet haha)

Must I votes? =[ </3

Mayling · Nov 17, 2009

frozenflame751 said:
Killing werewolves > killing goons. Werewolves can reduce town numbers outside of day phase.

I didn't realize this. I thought they both got a night kill! that's why there's a seer and not a cop.

Mister Eric said:
Until I actually have information...

VOTE: Still no one

Mister Eric said:
I'm not going to vote to have anyone lynched until I find reasoning for it.
that's how I play. when I get some time, either later tonight or in the morning some time, I'll start getting into character =]

But if you want to question me, I'm up for that. Just putting the heat on me tho because I'm not voting, I can't do much about that unless I choose to conform (which is lame, I likes me own playstyle).

Ronike said:
So... You plan to just sit on the sidelines? Instead of potentially trying to create something to lynch on by getting a scum to slip up? Or voicing concerns you have noticed? Unnaccepatable. Thats lurking/coasting. A very common scum strategem.

Vote: Eric

This comes off when you shape up (or if Im misreading it)

Ronike, how did Eric saying he was going to wait for more information turn into coasting on the side resulting into being deemed a lurker?

He even said he's more than willing to be asked questions.

I can understand that you want to pressure him, but deeming his actions as "lurking/coasting" isn't reasonable from where I stand.

I mean, what has Raptor done at this point?

Are you a big ol mean werewolf misconstruing an innocent's actions?

Ronike · Nov 17, 2009

A) I'm not saying you have to vote, I'm saying you have to stay active. Not just randomly throwing around your vote is better than carelessly throwing it around (annoying vs game losing in lynch or lose). However, don't treat a vote as though its a nuke you are going to use on an island of puppies, it only worth a fraction of a lynch. Its not something to be feared or underused.

B) For the love of all things good, this is a game of MAFIA. Not a roleplay, not an adventure game, MAFIA. There is NO getting into character (that can actually get you killed in flavor games such as FFVII), there is no role playing, it just is... no...

If you had a different idea about this and now don't want to play, please be replaced. But roleplaying your role in this game WILL undermine your ability to play it. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but its true

#HBC | marshy · Nov 17, 2009

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