Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[Hilt]

Originally Posted by berserker01

Hey Ran, you play as Kirby, about the Oli stuff:

"Lolimar" is lol as always. He's not really hard at first because that Kirby can easily cancel his red, blue and if your brave, the purple pikmin. The yellow or white pikmin is fast at travelling so your best bet would be a punishable jab or possibly d-air. Olimar's gayness is dependent on the following:
Jabs, tilts, smashes: Purple
Meteor smashing: Red
Air games: Yellow
Grabs: Blue
Well of course the match up is......................... not 60:40 Olimar at all, since the match up is fun as spilling milk on some 10 yr old (Just kidding) the match up is considered "varied"

..what? Almost all of this is wrong/makes no sense >.>

Originally Posted by Zeni

I'm still curious if jab can stop a grab or not. It could be one of kirby's main defences aginst an olimar grab.

It can, but ftilt works better. It leaves you less open afterwards, though I'm not sure which comes out faster.

Yeah Asdioh, it was because when Olimar pulls him towards him, your hitbox from your attack stays out for a short time, hitting Olimar and knocking us out of grabbing you (we don't have grab armor). This happens much more often with dash grabs, but will happen with standing/shield grabs as well. But if we pivot grab, it rarely ever happens.

[DanGR]

The rapid jabs can interrupt Olimar pretty decently. Oli can't really shieldgrab it so he's forced to just shield it and run away/grab once on the other side... but what does that do for you? You have to find a way to get in again.

If ftilt hits you have decent followups. If dtilt hits (which I'd recommend using over ftilt in this situation) and trips you're in even more control of the match.

+cosigning Hilt on everything he's said thus far.

Where were we.

[♛Viper]

Originally Posted by -Hilt-

He banned Delfino against me. Probably my best stage, with Japes and the Mansion following. Everyone (literally everyone lol) bans Mansion against me so I don't play it as often. Nobody bans Delfino against me. I play it on just about every one of my counterpicks, so I know it in and out. After the second game, he talked to his two crewmates about what he should ban against me (for like five minutes lol). Prior to playing him, I had beat the two of them on Delfino, so they encouraged him to ban it, instead of mansion.

☆ LMAO, even though Delfino Plaza is your best stage, I would ban a stage that Olimar can live up to 200% than a moving stage, but I guess you had to be a crazy good on that stage to have your opponents crew have to say what stage to ban. ☆

Originally Posted by -Hilt-

You're most likely going to be in the air when we're throwing them. Not sure why you'd already be on the ground. If you wait until you land to get them off, that's free damage for us. The pikmin latched onto you hit on every 30 frames, so you'll be hit at least once, possibly more. which is always a plus for us. Also, if you're on the ground using tilts to get the pikmin off, and we're anywhere near you, our fsmash will obviously go through your tilts, and even your fsmash, if you try to trick us into getting close so you can go for that.

☆ Mind game you say? Either be in the air and get Pikmin spammed or be on the ground where you get grabbed? I guess it wouldn't be a good idea to spam Pikmin when some characters are on the ground, I'm not sure how that works for Luigi. )= ☆

☆ Also sometimes Kirby's U-Tilt and F-Tilt can clash with some character's F-Smash, Olimar's shouldn't be a problem to clash against since you can hit the Pikmin, I'm not sure about U-Smash, I tend to stay away from that. ☆

Originally Posted by -Hilt-

Very true. However, you have to still be reasonably close to us to do so. This isn't really an approach option for you, rather a spacing tool.

☆ I guess. It's easier with F-Air than B-Air to perform a jump and attack at the same time though. ☆

Originally Posted by -Hilt-

Yellow fair is amazing. Beats out MK's Fair kinda easily, actually. It's better than you think. Yellow uair is somewhat situational, you have to be above us for us to do so. We don't really get to always choose when to yellow uair you, though if we're able to, we will.

☆ Really, I guess I have to try that would more. Under the platform or if anyone's above you for U-Air is the best use... except if it's a character with a good range spike. =P ☆

Originally Posted by -Hilt-

The main reason I love Jungle Japes is that it takes away Olimar's two biggest weaknesses.

1. We don't get gimped. As long as the Olimar is smart, and stays away from the left side, the water saves us. Sacrificing our pikmin to live is more than worth it. It takes 9 frames to pluck a new pikmin, and we only need one. Waiting a bit to pluck more is fine.

2. Pressuring us to a ledge will not happen. You're actually wrong in saying that we don't have more room to grab. In fact, we have added room. On a normal stage, if Olimar pivot grabs and is left against a ledge, he's, well, ****ed. Olimar is terrible close up against an opponent. Kirby is definitely one of the characters that, against Olimar, can pressure him extremely well close up. If Olimar is cornered between a ledge and an opponent, gg. On Japes, however, say we run into the right ledge. We're backed against kirby and the end of the stage. Wait. There's another ledge, hell, a small stage behind us that we can retreat to lol. Say you follow us to the right stage. Well, while you're coming to us, the ledge is actually safe for us, rather than on another stage where we have to actually get off of it lol. On other stages, we have one option, getting off of a ledge, coming towards the opponent. This can obviously be mixed up with an attack, whistle, air dodge, etc, but at the end of the day, we have to cross our opponent, and run past them. On japes? We can drop from the ledge and we actually have three extra options. Attacking from under the ledge is viable, if you're on the stage. We can retreat under the stage, grabbing one of the other two ledges available. Or hell, even jump in the water and start from scratch, appearing on the other side of Japes.

☆ There is Water gimping, which is bad since D-Air can force you to stay in the water when you jump out of it unless you have a blue Pikmin that tags along with you while you use an attack. ☆

☆ Center stage I can't really say. >.< ☆

Originally Posted by -Hilt-

Don't know if you all know Blazing Katakiri lol. He's known around here to take people to japes and do the Inhale > Water Trick. When he got it on me, I just mashed jump as fast as I could, and footstooled him instead. I don't know if this is something to do with Olimar's floatiness, or if it was just a fluke. But it was sooo hilarious, it footstooled him into the klaptrap on the last stock lol

☆ I don't think I've heard of that name. And it also depends on where he Inhale > Water, was it the far left side of the stage? It's very hard to jump from there, also Kirby can use Inhale > Klap Trap as well... but he'll get hurt as well. =P ☆

Originally Posted by -Hilt-

Wait, what? Us sharking or you? Olimar can't shark lol. Kirby sharking against Olimar isn't a big problem. If nothing else, we can just wait it out until a different transformation comes. Those parts are much much better for us against you anyways. Plus, we could take advantage of your time spent sharking to farm for purples. Which I'd be doing anyways. And if we reallly wanted to be flashy, yellow dair makes for some hilarious spikes against sharkers.

☆ He can't? I thought he was able to. =/ ☆

☆ I can only think of three parts of the stage that's good for Olimar on Delfino Plaza which would be below the Shine Sprite Gate, on the Roof, and the Walk way to the Shine Sprite Gate. ☆

Originally Posted by -Hilt-

But the point is that it isn't a problem. If we have six pikmin, and three get separated because of the stage changing, well, we still have three pikmin lol.

Pikmin will only take more than one whistle to come back if they are in an animation that would cause them to be either be considered a part of Olimar's line or order (while they're actually not at the time), or if they're in the middle of an attack, or hit by one. But that doesn't matter lol. The point is that some of our pikmin not being with us for a short amount of time, does not stop us from using attacks with our other pikmin.

☆ I tend to stray away from the real problem he has on that stage, Olimar's case on Pokemon Stadium would be the fields, Rock field, you mostly have no choice but to run or stall until the regular transformation is there, there's not many option unless your at the far right field. Water field the windmill will help us a lot, Final Cutters is useful if you try to come under the windmill, also near the left side of the stage is bad because Ninja Spike, or Ninjacide will happen if your not careful. Fire and Grass field is advantage. Pokemon Stadium 2 Electric Field the converter belts can be a bother if we force you into it, Ice field is your advantage for using sliding U-Smash, I'm not sure about F-Smash or D-Smash. The Sky field... what can I say but don't jump or else we can juggle you in the air and you have no choice but to dodge until you hit the ground. ☆

Originally Posted by Finolimar

I wish more kirby mains had the Viper mentality... actually... it doesn't matter much, last couple times I played kirby mains in serious sets (tournament or MM) I ended up 3-stocking them.
*shrugs*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99xDHVV8cTE

☆ That Kirby main counter picked Final Destination.... I'm surprised that person tried that grab combo despite it failing more than three times. )= ☆

Originally Posted by berserker01

Viper and Htilt, you keep debating against each other -_- why don't you guys brawl each other and see who's right

☆ If I could get wings and fly at any weather I would, or if I have magic powers that is called a good paying job. T_T ☆

Originally Posted by Asdioh :3

Viper, how is Stone good in this matchup? It's only good when used unpredictably or unpunishably, and those opportunities are rare :/
And unless I'm mistaken, thanks to his tether, Olimar can grab us out of the Stone Glitch as well..

☆ When Olimar is coming back after you launch him is be best use of Stone, but that would depend if you know the timing to fake Stone, or to hit him with Stone then come out of that form. If he use his second jump, you can use Stone to either kill him when his percent is high enough, fake Stone when your opponent is thinking you might save them. If Olimar doesn't use his second jump, you could use Stone on him and he would either, dodge, take the hit, or take the hit whistling, but it's your choice if you want to fake Stone him or just Stone him. ☆

☆ God****it I posted too late. )= ☆

[DanGR]

How do you fake a downb?

You can dodge it on reaction, unless you airdodged just before it started, in which case you deserve to die anyways.

[♛Viper]

☆ It's more like a mind game strategy really, if you dodge or block while Stone is coming, just cancel out of it and do a different move. It depends how well you fake Stone to make it useful. ☆

[DanGR]

Why do I have to airdodge it? Why not simple dodge it normally, fast fall down to the ledge, and latch to it before you're even out of the rock form completely.

[♛Viper]

☆ It's better to show you than to explain it... if anyone would please because I can't show stuff. ._. ☆

☆ There's other options of gimping than my own. I think it's already been said. ☆

[Hilt]

Originally Posted by ★Viper

LMAO, even though Delfino Plaza is your best stage, I would ban a stage that Olimar can live up to 200% than a moving stage, but I guess you had to be a crazy good on that stage to have your opponents crew have to say what stage to ban.

lol yeah it definitely wasn't his best choice

Originally Posted by ★Viper

Also sometimes Kirby's U-Tilt and F-Tilt can clash with some character's F-Smash, Olimar's shouldn't be a problem to clash against since you can hit the Pikmin, I'm not sure about U-Smash, I tend to stay away from that.

I don't really like usmash against kirby tbh (I actually don't use it as much as other Olimars do). If you beat out our fsmash with your ftilt that's fine. You didn't really accomplish anything. Either we can throw out another fsmash, since we're already in range, pull back, or, well, just sit there. You're not close enough to do anything anyways, most likely.

Originally Posted by ★Viper

There is Water gimping, which is bad since D-Air can force you to stay in the water when you jump out of it unless you have a blue Pikmin that tags along with you while you use an attack.

Whistle is much more reliable for us in the air, when trying to get out of the water, than attacking kirby back, is.

Originally Posted by ★Viper

He can't? I thought he was able to. =/

Wait, do you mean dropping from the stage, uair you once, and then regrab the ledge? Because Olimars will do that. It leaves us too open though for an easy gimp. Not to say that Olimars don't do this (I even do sometimes), but it's really punishable, and not something you would worry about.

Originally Posted by ★Viper

I can only think of three parts of the stage that's good for Olimar on Delfino Plaza which would be below the Shine Sprite Gate, on the Roof, and the Walk way to the Shine Sprite Gate.

In order, from best to worst (imo), for Olimar, excluding the transportation platform.

Amazing: Stairs > Eastern Beach > Umbrella Section > Section with Red Awning

Really good: Rooftop > Western Beach

Meh: Shine Gate > Pillars

Originally Posted by ★Viper

I tend to stray away from the real problem he has on that stage, Olimar's case on Pokemon Stadium would be the fields, Rock field, you mostly have no choice but to run or stall until the regular transformation is there, there's not many option unless your at the far right field. Water field the windmill will help us a lot, Final Cutters is useful if you try to come under the windmill, also near the left side of the stage is bad because Ninja Spike, or Ninjacide will happen if your not careful. Fire and Grass field is advantage. Pokemon Stadium 2 Electric Field the converter belts can be a bother if we force you into it, Ice field is your advantage for using sliding U-Smash, I'm not sure about F-Smash or D-Smash. The Sky field... what can I say but don't jump or else we can juggle you in the air and you have no choice but to dodge until you hit the ground.

What? You'll ban Mansion against us but don't consider that Olimar with a Windmill is broken too? Also, even if you were better against us under the windmill, we don't have to go there (we will). The right part of the phase, the shallow water, has one of our best pluck percentages (imo), giving mass amounts of blue and lotsa yellows, which are both great against kirby (especially yellow lol). Oh and no reds ^_^.

The rock phase I can sort of understand, for this matchup at least. I'll give you that. The fact that we don't have space to run from you and get we'd cornered easily is a problem. However, it's not as bad as if we were cornered against a ledge, since the option of jumping away is still available.

Fire Field is no better for you than it is for us. Wall combos for Olimar are great, though not worth too much mention in this situation. We still have plenty of room, even with the tree cutting some off.

Grass Phase is no problem. Same with your Ninja Tricks. Grab us first.

Also, trust me, I'm not denying Pokemon Stadium 2 being ****in amazing for you all against us lol. I would suggest learning the stage well, if you have an Olimar problem. every single phase, sans the ground one, will be ****ing amazing for you. Also, I would imagine Brinstar would be a great CP for you all as well. Norfair too.

[Dooms]

i dont get how stone is good in any matchup at all whatsoever. I try to use stone aginst people and they just predict where im going to land and grab me or they are even smarter and know im gonna cancle it and proceed to kill me anyways. Stone is almost always a bad option to me. Its even worse aginst olimar. Olimar's chain can stop it right from the start without putting him into any harm with its diagonal hitbox, plus the lack of landing lag makes it very easy to use. if we do pull it off however, then an olimar can just fair us, or usmash us if we miss. good job if you hit with it, your either using a stage's tilting form, or your just lucky enough. Stone is like rollout except with more risk. Don't try and use it at all in this matchup, bair is usually a better option.

[*SniperNightOwl*]

For me, stone is always situational. It's only reliable when I punish poor recoveries off stage like in this instance:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDO_BWwRhuk

[Dooms]

i can see a use aginst fox, but olimar? he can wistle guard it, chain it, and punish us with a purple in the lag.

[*SniperNightOwl*]

Originally Posted by Zeni

i can see a use aginst fox, but olimar? he can wistle guard it, chain it, and punish us with a purple in the lag.

if he's coming back on stage yes, but spiking or gimping with f-air would be a better idea.

[Dooms]

if hes coming back on stage, no. do a fair or dair. if you do a stone, its probably gonna get whistle armor'd/guarded. (i forgot if its whistle armor or whistle guard xD)

[jiovanni007]

Originally Posted by -Hilt-

Also, jiovanni, I don't think I've seen you write Olimar's name regularly yet

LOLimar is too funny and makes no sense whatsoever. He was actually pretty funny in the games too, like in the second one and when he says his name. I do recall one of ur guys calling themself and "Olimain" too lol.

As far as up close, ftilt has more range than dtilt which is why it might be used more and its REALLY hard to get close to loli without having the potential to be punished. Kirby's jab is bad...people need to realize this asap. It puts us at a frame DISadvantage and if the opponent just shields after being hit by the first one they almost always powershield the second one. I guess maybe mindgames into dtilt? Jab is too risky for the low reward IMO. However, after saying that I'm not sure what tricks Loli has for Kirby's jab, is a shieldgrab possible since the pikmin have to run up to grab? Or would the second jab possibly connect? Also and Ran(dom) said, spotdodging is horrible in this match, it'll get you grabbed, usmashed, dsmashed, and ****ed over in general. As far as pikmin spam goes we don't mind staling bair though it has KO potential, its used more as a poking tool than anything. Err at least that's how I use it, especially in matches when the opponent has no projectile. This one might be 40:60 afterall, the only person who played Olimar here switched to Snake then to SF4...

edit for Loli in water:

Yeah Delfino would be a terrible CP against Lolimar. Water does more good for him than anything. Basically he can whistle stall until the stage switches and then we're stuck struggling to get the kill again. Especially annoying when he's at a high % as well.

[Dooms]

Hey hey hey, ive used olimar enough to tell what he has and what he doesnt have, i just never fought kirby with him. Hilt and I are going to drll down this matchup the next time we see eachother at tournament/smashfest.