Shameless Geekery: Throw frame data

Veril · Nov 30, 2009

•I will report any posts that do not relate to the purpose of this thread, contain spam (even if it comes along with a legitimate question or comment), or attempt to troll.

Anything along the lines of: "TL;DR please explain" will be considered spam and reported. Don't waste my time.

Update: All Lag formula up!
Initial hitstun data coming soon! Get hyped for math b****es!

M-WUZ-H3R3 said:
The wise words of...

Beta Testing and Throw optimization:

So, here you have it. Stuff. Some old, much new, accurate to a very high degree (though due to sheer volume some errors are inevitable). I'll be updating this thread frequently. Much of the data is for 5.0. I am in the process of converting all of it to the beta stuff. Be patient. Hard data is being moved to more easily readable tables in the second post.

I'm going to start keeping track of all of my recommendations and such for throw fixes in the beta build. I hope to go through the whole cast eventually. Some of my suggestions have already been taken by Cape, such as the Jigglypuff changes (also supported by Glick). The old stuff is being deleted and this first post is a work being done as I also study for finals D:

Principles:

•ensure that no throw is overly weakened by the beta changes. ie, nerfed to death.
•Bring all throws to the minimum advantage (average adv if its a ∂W through) of jump startup + 1.
•minimize CGs
•optimize advantage windows such that combos are not completely removed by the hitstun reduction, but still require more tech skill to execute.
•no "vestigial limbs"

Some clarification from Magus <3:

Magus420 said:
You should probably find the release frames and 1st actionable frames for weight dependant throws against Ivysaur/Lucario as they have a 1x multiplier (weight of 100 in PSA). Then knowing that you should be able to freely calculate it being used on any of the other characters if you wanted.

This is my thread that includes throw frame data for Melee:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469

The actual slowdown/speedup effect on the animation's progression is a result of: 100/Weight

So with a weight value of 120 (Bowser), the animation will progress by 0.8333... for every 1 in-game frame that passes. If an event occurs on 10.000 of the animation, it would instead happen on frame 12 in the game.

The animation would progress like so:
0.833, 1.667. 2.500, 3.333, 4.167, 5.000, 5.833, 6.667, 7.500, 8.333, 9.167, 10.000 (event)

You can shortcut the entire process by simply taking the frame the event takes place on and multiplying it by their Weight/100 (Bowser would be a 1.200 multiplier), and then rounding UP to the next frame.

So something taking place on 14.000 of the animation would happen on frame 17 for Bowser
(14 x 1.2 -> 16.8 -> 17)

Example:

***A throw releases on frame 14.000 of the animation and you can shield starting on frame 32.000 (Marth's Melee f-throw).***

When used on Lucario the animation would progress like so:
1.000, 2.000, 3.000, 4.000, ...[snip]... 13.000, 14.000 (release), 15.000, 16.000, ...[snip]... 31.000, 32.000 (1st actionable frame)

Resulting in 18 frames of lag (frames 14 through 31 inclusive)

Which could be easily calculated with:
(32 x 1.00 -> 32) - (14 x 1.00 -> 14) = 18
32 - 14 = 18

When that same throw is used on Bowser it would go:
0.833, 1.667. 2.500, 3.333, 4.167, ...[snip]... 12.500, 13.333, 14.167 (release), 15.000, 15.833, ...[snip]... 30.833, 31.667, 32.500 (1st actionable frame)

Resulting in 22 frames of lag

Calculation:
(32 x 1.20 -> 38.4 -> 39) - (14 x 1.20 -> 16.8 -> 17) = 22
39 - 17 = 22

•the hitstun on all throws is roughly consistent across the cast at 0% (~same number of frames of stun). As would be expected, the hitstun growth rate varies by character.

•Throws with internal damage (ie, more than one hit) have a set amount of lag after the release point (I calculate the "lag" based on the frame the last hits damage is applied on... if you need clarification talk to me on AIM. This is the best and easiest way to find lag on throws).

•Throws without internally applied damage (single hit) have lag that varies across the cast. Testing these is a nightmare and as such I'm only going to be testing a few characters single hit throws.

•hitstun - lag = advantage on throw. -jump startup = aerial followup window.

••Given the above, throws with internal damage will yield one value for advantage on an opponent at 0%. Yay. That's measurable.

••Certain characters are far more susceptable to throw combos than others. Jigglypuff is the most susceptable out of the cast because she suffers the most hitstun growth, and yields the lowest lag values (by a large margin) for almost every type of variable throws (not 100% of the time, but exceptions are rare and even then she's near the worst).

note: unrelated but really useful formula: sstun = 2x (dmg/3 rounded down) + 5

values listed for grabs are the first frame that the character will grab on

Choice reaction time: I assume that the upper limit for this is 12, and that the majority of competitive players will have CRTs of between 12 and 15 frames. This only matters if the person actually knows how to properly DI a throw, and I assume that at a high level everyone will... eventually. Because DI is read the frame before release, ROF must be at least 13 for it to be possible (for anyone) to DI without predicting the throw. ROF must be at least 16 for it to be DI able by the majority of players. ROFs of 13-15 are a gray area in which those with very fast reflexes and excellent tech skill will be able to DI, while most will not. If an ROF is 30 or above, DI is totally possible and should be expected from anyone competent (thus why d-throw > rest doesn't work on non-n00bs more than one time, its got a very high rof).

-You can infer from this that each character will have a unique spread in regards to DIing ∂W throws. I'm making a chart to demonstrate how important this is.

x-hyphen-treme detail
throw data includes both the lag formula, damage, and initial hitstun
throw data includes the lag formula (or lag if its set), but not necessarily complete data
throw data isn't very complete at all

DON'T BE LIKE LEAF! READ THIS SO YOU UNDERSTAND THE FORMULA POSTED
Lag on throw =[First actionable frame (ie, the frame a shield would first appear on) •w - Release frame •w]

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: each of the values modified by weight must be rounded up in order to calculate lag. Merely multiplying base lag by weight mod will NOT always or even often give you the correct value. w=1 for a set value throw, or the characters weight if its ∂W.

Bowser:

GSH2 accurate data.

Only b-throw can KO directly, and it can do so at ~150%. Strong up-b, side-b... really most of Bowser's moves kill earlier, but if you manage to grab someone near the edge and happen to be facing inwards... its good.

f-throw: weight dependent, non-KOing, expect savvy opponents to be able to DI regardless of character, DI is somewhat difficult to read but also possible, limited comboability, exceeds adv standards.
Minimum adv@0: 19 ----- Maximum adv@0: 31 ----- Average adv@0: 24

b-throw: weight dependent, can KO at higher %, impossible for some characters to DI on reaction, not a combo throw.

up-throw: non-weight dependent, not difficult to DI, difficult but technically possible to read DI (17 frame window), can combo into fair effectively. Highest reliable damage output from a grab is up-throw fair.

d-throw: can't KO, 16 damage without needing to combo is really quite good however.

Cpt. Falcon:

No throw can KO directly.

Code:

CF	f-throw	[38-17=21]	b-throw	[48-15=33]	up-throw [41-17=24]	d-throw	[40-21=19]*
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	22	14
Snake	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	22	14
Bowser	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	21	15
DDD	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	21	15
Zard	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	20	16
Ganon	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	21	15
Samus	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	21	15
Wario	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	20	16
Yoshi	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	20	16
Rob	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	20	16
Ike	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	19	17
CF	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	20	16
Link	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	20	16
Wolf	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	19	17
Ivy	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	19	17
Lucario	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	19	17
Mario	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	19	17
Luigi	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	18	18
sonic	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	18	18
Lucas	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	18	18
Ness	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	18	18
Pit	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	18	18
dK	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	18	18
IC	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	17	19
TL	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	17	19
Peach	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	17	19
Marth	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	16	20
Sheik	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	16	20
Zelda	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	16	20
Falco	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	15	21
Olimar	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	15	21
ZSS	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	15	21
Fox	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	15	21
MK	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	15	21
Pikachu	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	15	21
Kirby	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	15	21
GW	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	14	22
Squirt	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	14	22
JP	31	21	10	26	33	-7	34	24	10	36	13	23

Charizard:

I don't see much need for changing any of Charizard's throws and so will not be modifying them unless people give me a great reason to do so.

Code:

Charizard f-throw [60-40=20]*	b-throw	[33-16=17]*	up-throw [53-33=20]	d-throw	[92-62=30]
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	35	23	12	45	20	25	46	20	26	48	30	18
Snake	35	22	13	45	19	26	46	20	26	48	30	18
Bowser	35	23	12	45	19	26	46	20	26	48	30	18
DDD	35	23	12	45	19	26	46	20	26	48	30	18
Zard	35	22	13	45	19	26	46	20	26	48	30	18
Ganon	35	22	13	45	18	27	46	20	26	48	30	18
Samus	35	21	14	45	18	27	46	20	26	48	30	18
Wario	35	22	13	45	18	27	46	20	26	48	30	18
Yoshi	35	22	13	45	18	27	46	20	26	48	30	18
Rob	35	21	14	45	18	27	46	20	26	48	30	18
Ike	35	21	14	45	18	27	46	20	26	48	30	18
CF	35	21	14	45	18	27	46	20	26	48	30	18
Link	35	21	14	45	18	27	46	20	26	48	30	18
Wolf	35	21	14	45	17	28	46	20	26	48	30	18
Ivy	35	20	15	45	17	28	46	20	26	48	30	18
Lucario	35	20	15	45	17	28	46	20	26	48	30	18
Mario	35	19	16	45	17	28	46	20	26	48	30	18
Luigi	35	20	15	45	17	28	46	20	26	48	30	18
sonic	35	19	16	45	16	29	46	20	26	48	30	18
Lucas	35	19	16	45	16	29	46	20	26	48	30	18
Ness	35	19	16	45	16	29	46	20	26	48	30	18
Pit	35	19	16	45	16	29	46	20	26	48	30	18
dK	35	18	17	45	16	29	46	20	26	48	30	18
IC	35	19	16	45	16	29	46	20	26	48	30	18
TL	35	19	16	45	16	29	46	20	26	48	30	18
Peach	35	18	17	45	15	30	46	20	26	48	30	18
Marth	35	18	17	45	15	30	46	20	26	48	30	18
Sheik	35	17	18	45	15	30	46	20	26	48	30	18
Zelda	35	17	18	45	15	30	46	20	26	48	30	18
Falco	35	17	18	45	14	31	46	20	26	48	30	18
Olimar	35	17	18	45	14	31	46	20	26	48	30	18
ZSS	35	16	19	45	14	31	46	20	26	48	30	18
Fox	35	16	19	45	14	31	46	20	26	48	30	18
MK	35	16	19	45	14	31	46	20	26	48	30	18
Pikachu	35	16	19	45	14	31	46	20	26	48	30	18
Kirby	35	15	20	45	13	32	46	20	26	48	30	18
GW	35	15	20	45	13	32	46	20	26	48	30	18
Squirt	35	15	20	45	13	32	46	20	26	48	30	18
JP	35	13	22	45	12	33	46	20	26	48	30	18

DDD:

Given that DDD's game was centered around his throws, and the concensus seems to be that DDD is a weaker character, I will be making several minor adjustments to his throws. Nothing that will be obvious, but enough to subtly improve them. Still determining how best to do this.

Code:

DDD	f-throw	[41-17=24]	b-throw	[45-22=23]	up-throw [42-21=21]	d-throw	[44-25=19]
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Snake	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Bowser	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
DDD	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Zard	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Ganon	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Samus	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Wario	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Yoshi	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Rob	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Ike	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
CF	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Link	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Wolf	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Ivy	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Lucario	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Mario	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Luigi	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
sonic	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Lucas	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Ness	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Pit	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
dK	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
IC	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
TL	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Peach	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Marth	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Sheik	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Zelda	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Falco	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Olimar	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
ZSS	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Fox	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
MK	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Pikachu	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Kirby	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
GW	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
Squirt	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19
JP	45	24	21	37	23	14	35	21	14	38	19	19

Diddy Kong

No throw buffs fo' you Diddy! Not up for discussion.

Code:

Diddy Kong	f-throw	[26-11=15]*	b-throw	[26-9=17]*	up-throw [30-18=12]	d-throw	[32-11=21]*	
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	38	18	20	37	20	17	39	12	27	48	25	23
Snake	38	17	21	37	19	18	39	12	27	48	24	24
Bowser	38	17	21	37	19	18	39	12	27	48	23	25
DDD	38	17	21	37	19	18	39	12	27	48	23	25
Zard	38	16	22	37	19	18	39	12	27	48	23	25
Ganon	38	17	21	37	19	18	39	12	27	48	23	25
Samus	38	17	21	37	19	18	39	12	27	48	23	25
Wario	38	16	22	37	18	19	39	12	27	48	23	25
Yoshi	38	16	22	37	18	19	39	12	27	48	23	25
Rob	38	16	22	37	18	19	39	12	27	48	22	26
Ike	38	16	22	37	18	19	39	12	27	48	22	26
CF	38	16	22	37	18	19	39	12	27	48	22	26
Link	38	16	22	37	18	19	39	12	27	48	22	26
Wolf	38	15	23	37	17	20	39	12	27	48	21	27
Ivy	38	15	23	37	17	20	39	12	27	48	21	27
Lucario	38	15	23	37	17	20	39	12	27	48	21	27
Mario	38	15	23	37	17	20	39	12	27	48	21	27
Luigi	38	15	23	37	17	20	39	12	27	48	21	27
sonic	38	14	24	37	16	21	39	12	27	48	20	28
Lucas	38	14	24	37	16	21	39	12	27	48	20	28
Ness	38	14	24	37	16	21	39	12	27	48	20	28
Pit	38	14	24	37	16	21	39	12	27	48	20	28
dK	38	14	24	37	16	21	39	12	27	48	19	29
IC	38	13	25	37	15	22	39	12	27	48	19	29
TL	38	13	25	37	15	22	39	12	27	48	19	29
Peach	38	14	24	37	15	22	39	12	27	48	19	29
Marth	38	13	25	37	15	22	39	12	27	48	18	30
Sheik	38	13	25	37	15	22	39	12	27	48	18	30
Zelda	38	13	25	37	15	22	39	12	27	48	18	30
Falco	38	12	26	37	14	23	39	12	27	48	17	31
Olimar	38	12	26	37	14	23	39	12	27	48	17	31
ZSS	38	13	25	37	14	23	39	12	27	48	17	31
Fox	38	12	26	37	13	24	39	12	27	48	17	31
MK	38	12	26	37	13	24	39	12	27	48	17	31
Pikachu	38	12	26	37	13	24	39	12	27	48	17	31
Kirby	38	12	26	37	13	24	39	12	27	48	16	32
GW	38	11	27	37	13	24	39	12	27	48	15	33
Squirt	38	11	27	37	13	24	39	12	27	48	15	33
JP	38	10	28	37	11	26	39	12	27	48	14	34

Donkey Kong
Falco
Fox:
Game and Watch
Ganondorf

OMG that b-throw sucks so much (gonna take 1 off the release, 10 off the iasa, increase the bkb somewhat and possibly raise kbd by 1 point). F-throw will get a very minor tweak to its iasa (probably -2 frames from it).

Code:

------- f-throw -------- b-throw ------ u-throw ------ d-throw
	[42-14=28] ---- [52-15=37] ---- [38-14=24]
	adv0	adv100	adv0	adv100	adv0	adv100	adj form	adv0	adv100
DK	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[47-27=20]	18	??
Snake	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[46-26=20]	18	??
Bowser	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[45-26=19]	19	??
DDD	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[45-26=19]	19	??
Zard	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[44-26=18]	20	??
Ganon	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[44-26=18]	20	??
Samus	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[44-25=19]	19	??
Wario	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[43-25=18]	20	??
Yoshi	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[43-25=18]	20	??
Rob	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[43-25=18]	20	??
Ike	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[42-25=17]	21	??
CF	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[42=24=18]	20	??
Link	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[42=24=18]	20	??
Wolf	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[41-24=17]	21	??
Ivy	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[40-23=17]	21	??
Lucario	7	??	-10	??	18	34	[40-23=17]	21	38
Mario	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[40-23=17]	21	??
Luigi	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[39-23=16]	22	??
sonic	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[38-22=16]	22	??
Lucas	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[38-22=16]	22	??
Ness	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[38-22=16]	22	??
Pit	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[38-22=16]	22	??
dK	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[38-22=16]	22	??
IC	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[37-22=15]	23	??
TL	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[37-22=15]	23	??
Peach	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[36-21=15]	23	??
Marth	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[35-21=14]	24	??
Sheik	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[34-20=14]	24	??
Zelda	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[34-20=14]	24	??
Falco	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[33-19=14]	24	??
Olimar	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[33-19=14]	24	??
ZSS	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[33-19=14]	24	??
Fox	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[32-19=13]	25	??
MK	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[32-19=13]	25	??
Pikachu	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[32-19=13]	25	??
Kirby	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[32-18=14]	24	??
GW	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[30-18=12]	26	??
Squirt	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[30-18=12]	26	??
JP	7	??	-10	??	18	??	[28-16=12]	26	??

Ice Climbers
I'm not going to alter the ICs throws in any way shape or form. The alternating b-throw infinite, arguably the only thing really worth removing, it gone. Direct alternating throw infinites have already been dealt with. The remaining CGs are either %/char dependent, escapable with DI and teching, require a lot of practice to execute... are cool... and are avoidable by KOing nana. No Johns, the CG game already got nerfed HARD.

Ike
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff

I will be optimizing her throws so that while no combos into up-air work due to that ultimately leading to cheesy death combos, the d-throw will be able to combo into DACUS with near frame perfect timing.

Code:

Jpuff	f-throw	[38-13=25]	b-throw	[50-26=24]*	up-throw [42-9=33]*	d-throw	[87-64=23]	
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	54	25	29	48	27	21	56	38	18	50	23	27
Snake	54	25	29	48	27	21	56	37	19	50	23	27
Bowser	54	25	29	48	26	22	56	37	19	50	23	27
DDD	54	25	29	48	26	22	56	37	19	50	23	27
Zard	54	25	29	48	26	22	56	37	19	50	23	27
Ganon	54	25	29	48	26	22	56	36	20	50	23	27
Samus	54	25	29	48	25	23	56	36	20	50	23	27
Wario	54	25	29	48	26	22	56	35	21	50	23	27
Yoshi	54	25	29	48	26	22	56	35	21	50	23	27
Rob	54	25	29	48	25	23	56	35	21	50	23	27
Ike	54	25	29	48	25	23	56	35	21	50	23	27
CF	54	25	29	48	24	24	56	34	22	50	23	27
Link	54	25	29	48	24	24	56	34	22	50	23	27
Wolf	54	25	29	48	24	24	56	33	23	50	23	27
Ivy	54	25	29	48	24	24	56	33	23	50	23	27
Lucario	54	25	29	48	24	24	56	33	23	50	23	27
Mario	54	25	29	48	23	25	56	33	23	50	23	27
Luigi	54	25	29	48	23	25	56	32	24	50	23	27
sonic	54	25	29	48	23	25	56	31	25	50	23	27
Lucas	54	25	29	48	22	26	56	31	25	50	23	27
Ness	54	25	29	48	22	26	56	31	25	50	23	27
Pit	54	25	29	48	22	26	56	31	25	50	23	27
dK	54	25	29	48	22	26	56	31	25	50	23	27
IC	54	25	29	48	22	26	56	30	26	50	23	27
TL	54	25	29	48	22	26	56	30	26	50	23	27
Peach	54	25	29	48	21	27	56	29	27	50	23	27
Marth	54	25	29	48	21	27	56	29	27	50	23	27
Sheik	54	25	29	48	20	28	56	28	28	50	23	27
Zelda	54	25	29	48	20	28	56	28	28	50	23	27
Falco	54	25	29	48	19	29	56	27	29	50	23	27
Olimar	54	25	29	48	19	29	56	27	29	50	23	27
ZSS	54	25	29	48	19	29	56	27	29	50	23	27
Fox	54	25	29	48	19	29	56	26	30	50	23	27
MK	54	25	29	48	19	29	56	26	30	50	23	27
Pikachu	54	25	29	48	19	29	56	26	30	50	23	27
Kirby	54	25	29	48	18	30	56	25	31	50	23	27
GW	54	25	29	48	18	30	56	25	31	50	23	27
Squirt	54	25	29	48	18	30	56	25	31	50	23	27
JP	54	25	29	48	16	32	56	22	34	50	23	27

Kirby

I'll probably be toning down the d-throw nerf to the exact point at which it won't CG like it did before, but without destroying it (like Cape did with the knockback change).

Code:

Kirby	f-throw	[62-45=17]*	b-throw	[46-33=13]*	up-throw [80-51=29]*	d-throw	[90-60=30]	
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	32	19	13	42	15	27	41	33	8	41	30	11
Snake	32	20	12	42	14	28	41	33	8	41	30	11
Bowser	32	19	13	42	15	27	41	32	9	41	30	11
DDD	32	19	13	42	15	27	41	32	9	41	30	11
Zard	32	19	13	42	14	28	41	31	10	41	30	11
Ganon	32	18	14	42	15	27	41	32	9	41	30	11
Samus	32	18	14	42	14	28	41	31	10	41	30	11
Wario	32	18	14	42	14	28	41	31	10	41	30	11
Yoshi	32	18	14	42	14	28	41	31	10	41	30	11
Rob	32	18	14	42	14	28	41	30	11	41	30	11
Ike	32	18	14	42	14	28	41	30	11	41	30	11
CF	32	18	14	42	13	29	41	30	11	41	30	11
Link	32	18	14	42	13	29	41	30	11	41	30	11
Wolf	32	18	14	42	13	29	41	29	12	41	30	11
Ivy	32	17	15	42	13	29	41	29	12	41	30	11
Lucario	32	17	15	42	13	29	41	29	12	41	30	11
Mario	32	16	16	42	13	29	41	29	12	41	30	11
Luigi	32	17	15	42	12	30	41	28	13	41	30	11
sonic	32	16	16	42	12	30	41	27	14	41	30	11
Lucas	32	16	16	42	12	30	41	28	13	41	30	11
Ness	32	16	16	42	12	30	41	28	13	41	30	11
Pit	32	16	16	42	12	30	41	28	13	41	30	11
dK	32	16	16	42	12	30	41	27	14	41	30	11
IC	32	16	16	42	12	30	41	27	14	41	30	11
TL	32	16	16	42	12	30	41	27	14	41	30	11
Peach	32	15	17	42	12	30	41	26	15	41	30	11
Marth	32	14	18	42	12	30	41	25	16	41	30	11
Sheik	32	14	18	42	11	31	41	24	17	41	30	11
Zelda	32	14	18	42	11	31	41	24	17	41	30	11
Falco	32	14	18	42	10	32	41	24	17	41	30	11
Olimar	32	14	18	42	10	32	41	24	17	41	30	11
ZSS	32	14	18	42	11	31	41	23	18	41	30	11
Fox	32	14	18	42	10	32	41	23	18	41	30	11
MK	32	13	19	42	10	32	41	23	18	41	30	11
Pikachu	32	13	19	42	10	32	41	23	18	41	30	11
Kirby	32	13	19	42	10	32	41	23	18	41	30	11
GW	32	13	19	42	10	32	41	21	20	41	30	11
Squirt	32	13	19	42	10	32	41	21	20	41	30	11
JP	32	12	20	42	9	33	41	20	21	41	30	11

Link

Link's throws do not reflect the difficulty inherent in getting a grab, not to mention how punishable grabs are when whiffed. Fixing these throws has proven to be less simple than I had anticipated. When I get a working fix for them I will post it.

Code:

Link	f-throw	[43-15=28]	b-throw	[35-15=20]	up-throw [45-30=15]	d-throw	[52-25=27]	
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Snake	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Bowser	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
DDD	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Zard	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Ganon	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Samus	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Wario	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Yoshi	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Rob	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Ike	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
CF	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Link	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Wolf	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Ivy	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Lucario	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Mario	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Luigi	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
sonic	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Lucas	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Ness	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Pit	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
dK	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
IC	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
TL	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Peach	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Marth	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Sheik	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Zelda	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Falco	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Olimar	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
ZSS	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Fox	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
MK	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Pikachu	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Kirby	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
GW	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
Squirt	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4
JP	34	28	6	28	20	8	21	15	6	31	27	4

Lucario

The change in Lucario's up-throw may or may not have caused it to become weight dependent. I realized this today, I'll know when I check later. Than the data will be up for it. I probably won't be altering them either way.

Code:

Lucario	f-throw	[22-4=18]*	b-throw	[36-15=21]*	up-throw [38-19=19]?	d-throw	[52-36=16]*	
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	38	21	17	34	24	10	38	??	??	49	19	30
Snake	38	20	18	34	24	10	38	??	??	49	18	31
Bowser	38	20	18	34	24	10	38	??	??	49	18	31
DDD	38	20	18	34	24	10	38	??	??	49	18	31
Zard	38	20	18	34	23	11	38	??	??	49	18	31
Ganon	38	19	19	34	23	11	38	??	??	49	17	32
Samus	38	19	19	34	22	12	38	??	??	49	18	31
Wario	38	19	19	34	22	12	38	??	??	49	17	32
Yoshi	38	19	19	34	22	12	38	??	??	49	17	32
Rob	38	19	19	34	23	11	38	??	??	49	17	32
Ike	38	19	19	34	22	12	38	??	??	49	17	32
CF	38	18	20	34	22	12	38	??	??	49	17	32
Link	38	18	20	34	22	12	38	??	??	49	17	32
Wolf	38	18	20	34	21	13	38	??	??	49	17	32
Ivy	38	18	20	34	21	13	38	??	??	49	16	33
Lucario	38	18	20	34	21	13	38	??	??	49	16	33
Mario	38	18	20	34	21	13	38	??	??	49	15	34
Luigi	38	18	20	34	20	14	38	??	??	49	16	33
sonic	38	17	21	34	20	14	38	??	??	49	15	34
Lucas	38	17	21	34	19	15	38	??	??	49	15	34
Ness	38	17	21	34	19	15	38	??	??	49	15	34
Pit	38	17	21	34	19	15	38	??	??	49	15	34
dK	38	17	21	34	20	14	38	??	??	49	15	34
IC	38	17	21	34	20	14	38	??	??	49	14	35
TL	38	17	21	34	20	14	38	??	??	49	14	35
Peach	38	16	22	34	19	15	38	??	??	49	14	35
Marth	38	16	22	34	18	16	38	??	??	49	14	35
Sheik	38	15	23	34	18	16	38	??	??	49	14	35
Zelda	38	15	23	34	18	16	38	??	??	49	14	35
Falco	38	15	23	34	17	17	38	??	??	49	13	36
Olimar	38	15	23	34	17	17	38	??	??	49	13	36
ZSS	38	14	24	34	17	17	38	??	??	49	13	36
Fox	38	14	24	34	17	17	38	??	??	49	13	36
MK	38	14	24	34	17	17	38	??	??	49	13	36
Pikachu	38	14	24	34	17	17	38	??	??	49	13	36
Kirby	38	14	24	34	17	17	38	??	??	49	12	37
GW	38	14	24	34	15	19	38	??	??	49	12	37
Squirt	38	14	24	34	15	19	38	??	??	49	12	37
JP	38	12	26	34	14	20	38	??	??	49	11	38

Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Martha
Meta Knight:

No more MK nerfs

Seriously...

Ness:
Olimar
Peach
pikachu
Pit

Code:

Pit	f-throw	[31-16=15]	b-throw	[39-24=15]*	up-throw [35-15=20]	d-throw	[34-18=16]	
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	29	15	14	29	18	11	39	20	19	42	16	26
Snake	29	15	14	29	17	12	39	20	19	42	16	26
Bowser	29	15	14	29	17	12	39	20	19	42	16	26
DDD	29	15	14	29	17	12	39	20	19	42	16	26
Zard	29	15	14	29	16	13	39	20	19	42	16	26
Ganon	29	15	14	29	16	13	39	20	19	42	16	26
Samus	29	15	14	29	17	12	39	20	19	42	16	26
Wario	29	15	14	29	16	13	39	20	19	42	16	26
Yoshi	29	15	14	29	16	13	39	20	19	42	16	26
Rob	29	15	14	29	16	13	39	20	19	42	16	26
Ike	29	15	14	29	15	14	39	20	19	42	16	26
CF	29	15	14	29	16	13	39	20	19	42	16	26
Link	29	15	14	29	16	13	39	20	19	42	16	26
Wolf	29	15	14	29	15	14	39	20	19	42	16	26
Ivy	29	15	14	29	15	14	39	20	19	42	16	26
Lucario	29	15	14	29	15	14	39	20	19	42	16	26
Mario	29	15	14	29	15	14	39	20	19	42	16	26
Luigi	29	15	14	29	14	15	39	20	19	42	16	26
sonic	29	15	14	29	15	14	39	20	19	42	16	26
Lucas	29	15	14	29	14	15	39	20	19	42	16	26
Ness	29	15	14	29	14	15	39	20	19	42	16	26
Pit	29	15	14	29	14	15	39	20	19	42	16	26
dK	29	15	14	29	14	15	39	20	19	42	16	26
IC	29	15	14	29	13	16	39	20	19	42	16	26
TL	29	15	14	29	13	16	39	20	19	42	16	26
Peach	29	15	14	29	14	15	39	20	19	42	16	26
Marth	29	15	14	29	13	16	39	20	19	42	16	26
Sheik	29	15	14	29	13	16	39	20	19	42	16	26
Zelda	29	15	14	29	13	16	39	20	19	42	16	26
Falco	29	15	14	29	12	17	39	20	19	42	16	26
Olimar	29	15	14	29	12	17	39	20	19	42	16	26
ZSS	29	15	14	29	12	17	39	20	19	42	16	26
Fox	29	15	14	29	12	17	39	20	19	42	16	26
MK	29	15	14	29	12	17	39	20	19	42	16	26
Pikachu	29	15	14	29	12	17	39	20	19	42	16	26
Kirby	29	15	14	29	12	17	39	20	19	42	16	26
GW	29	15	14	29	12	17	39	20	19	42	16	26
Squirt	29	15	14	29	12	17	39	20	19	42	16	26
JP	29	15	14	29	10	19	39	20	19	42	16	26

Rob
Rob's vBrawl attack and specials frame data should be accurate still. While actually determining if a combo will work (given knockback), requires testing, it is possible to fairly easily determine what combos will NOT work using some simple math.

Throw to Aerial combos: minimum frame requirement = jump startup + move startup

nair: 22, f-air: 12, b-air: 15, u-air: 12, d-air: 24

Tested: d-throw nair... still legit.

Rob's throws, other than possibly the up-throw, will not be getting altered. Further testing needed at high % to determine this.

Code:

Rob	f-throw	-----------------------	b-throw	-----------------------	u-throw	-----------------------	d-throw		
												
	adj. form	adv@0	adv@100 adj. form	adv@0	adv@100	  adj. form	adv@0	adv@100 adj. form	adv@0	adv@100
DK	[28-3=25]	10	??	[32-6=26]	9	??	[94-76=18]	21	??	[77-58=19]	34	??
Snake	[28-3=25]	10	??	[31-6=25]	10	??	[92-74=18]	21	??	[75-57=18]	35	??
Bowser	[27-3=24]	11	??	[31-6=25]	10	??	[91-73=18]	21	??	[74-56=18]	35	??
DDD	[27-3=24]	11	??	[31-6=25]	10	??	[91-73=18]	21	??	[74-56=18]	35	??
Zard	[27-3=24]	11	??	[30-6=24]	11	??	[90-72=18]	21	??	[73-55=18]	35	??
Ganon	[27-3=24]	11	??	[30-6=24]	11	??	[89-71=18]	21	??	[72-55=17]	36	??
Samus	[26-3=23]	12	??	[30-6=24]	11	??	[88-71=17]	22	??	[72-54=18]	35	??
Wario	[26-3=23]	12	??	[29-6=23]	12	??	[87-70=17]	22	??	[71-54=17]	36	??
Yoshi	[26-3=23]	12	??	[29-6=23]	12	??	[87-70=17]	22	??	[71-54=17]	36	??
Rob	[26-3=23]	12	??	[29-6=23]	12	??	[86-69=17]	22	??	[70-53=17]	36	??
Ike	[26-3=23]	12	??	[29-6=23]	12	??	[86-69=17]	22	??	[70-53=17]	36	??
CF	[25-3=22]	13	??	[29-6=23]	12	??	[85-68=17]	22	??	[69-52=17]	36	??
Link	[25-3=22]	13	??	[29-6=23]	12	??	[85-68=17]	22	??	[69-52=17]	36	??
Wolf	[25-3=22]	13	??	[28-6=22]	13	??	[83-67=16]	23	??	[68-51=17	36	??
Ivy	[24-2=22]	13	??	[27-5=22]	13	??	[81-65=16]	23	??	[66-15=16]	37	??
Lucario	[24-2=22]	13	??	[27-5=22]	13	??	[81-65=16]	23	??	[66-15=16]	37	44
Mario	[24-2=22]	13	??	[27-5=22]	13	??	[80-64=16]	23	??	[65-49=16]	37	??
Luigi	[24-2=22]	13	??	[27-5=22]	13	??	[79-64=15]	24	??	[65-49=16]	37	??
sonic	[23-2=21]	14	??	[26-5=21]	14	??	[77-62=15]	24	??	[63-48=15]	38	??
Lucas	[23-2=21]	14	??	[26-5=21]	14	??	[77-62=15]	24	??	[63-47=16]	37	??
Ness	[23-2=21]	14	??	[26-5=21]	14	??	[77-62=15]	24	??	[63-47=16]	37	??
Pit	[23-2=21]	14	??	[26-5=21]	14	??	[77-62=15]	24	??	[63-47=16]	37	??
dK	[23-2=21]	14	??	[26-5=21]	14	??	[76-61=15]	24	??	[62-47=15]	38	??
IC	[23-2=21]	14	??	[25-5=20]	15	??	[75-60=15]	24	??	[61-46=15]	38	??
TL	[23-2=21]	14	??	[25-5=20]	15	??	[75-60=15]	24	??	[61-46=15]	38	??
Peach	[22-2=20]	15	??	[25-5=20]	15	??	[73-59=14]	25	??	[60-45=15]	38	??
Marth	[21-2=19]	16	??	[24-5=19]	16	??	[71-57=14]	25	??	[58-44=14]	39	??
Sheik	[21-2=19]	16	??	[23-5=18]	17	??	[69-56=13]	26	??	[57-43=14]	39	??
Zelda	[21-2=19]	16	??	[23-5=18]	17	??	[69-56=13]	26	??	[57-43=14]	39	??
Falco	[20-2=18]	17	??	[23-5=18]	17	??	[67-54=13]	26	??	[55-41=14]	39	??
Olimar	[20-2=18]	17	??	[23-5=18]	17	??	[67-54=13]	26	??	[55-41=14]	39	??
ZSS	[20-2=18]	17	??	[22-5=17]	18	??	[66-53=13]	26	??	[54-41=13]	40	??
Fox	[20-2=18]	17	??	[22-4=18]	17	??	[65-52=13]	26	??	[53-40=13]	40	??
MK	[19-2=17]	18	??	[22-4=18]	17	??	[64-52=12]	27	??	[53-40=13]	40	??
Pikachu	[19-2=17]	18	??	[22-4=18]	17	??	[64-52=12]	27	??	[53-40=13]	40	??
Kirby	[19-2=17]	18	??	[22-4=18]	17	??	[64-51=13]	26	??	[52-39=13]	40	??
GW	[18-2=16]	19	??	[21-4=17]	18	??	[61-49=12]	27	??	[50-38=12]	41	??
Squirt	[18-2=16]	19	??	[21-4=17]	18	??	[61-49=12]	27	??	[50-38=12]	41	??
JP	[17-2=15]	20	??	[19-4=15]	20	??	[56-45=11]	28	??	[45-34=11]	42	??

Samus
Sheik:
Snake

Code:

Snake	f-throw	[45-26=19]*	b-throw	[32-17=15]*	up-throw [50-23=27]*	 d-throw	[60-59=1]?
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0
DK	35	22	13	37	18	19	41	31	10	NA
Snake	35	21	14	37	17	20	41	31	10	
Bowser	35	21	14	37	16	21	41	30	11	
DDD	35	21	14	37	16	21	41	30	11	
Zard	35	21	14	37	17	20	41	29	12	
Ganon	35	21	14	37	16	21	41	29	12	
Samus	35	20	15	37	16	21	41	29	12	
Wario	35	21	14	37	16	21	41	29	12	
Yoshi	35	21	14	37	16	21	41	29	12	
Rob	35	20	15	37	15	22	41	28	13	
Ike	35	20	15	37	16	21	41	28	13	
CF	35	19	16	37	16	21	41	28	13	
Link	35	19	16	37	16	21	41	28	13	
Wolf	35	19	16	37	15	22	41	27	14	
Ivy	35	19	16	37	15	22	41	27	14	
Lucario	35	19	16	37	15	22	41	27	14	
Mario	35	19	16	37	15	22	41	26	15
Luigi	35	18	17	37	15	22	41	26	15
sonic	35	18	17	37	14	23	41	26	15
Lucas	35	18	17	37	15	22	41	25	16
Ness	35	18	17	37	15	22	41	25	16
Pit	35	18	17	37	15	22	41	25	16
dK	35	17	18	37	14	23	41	25	16
IC	35	18	17	37	14	23	41	24	17
TL	35	18	17	37	14	23	41	24	17
Peach	35	17	18	37	13	24	41	24	17
Marth	35	17	18	37	13	24	41	23	18
Sheik	35	16	19	37	13	24	41	23	18
Zelda	35	16	19	37	13	24	41	23	18
Falco	35	15	20	37	13	24	41	22	19
Olimar	35	15	20	37	13	24	41	22	19
ZSS	35	15	20	37	12	25	41	22	19
Fox	35	15	20	37	12	25	41	21	20		
MK	35	15	20	37	12	25	41	21	20		
Pikachu	35	15	20	37	12	25	41	21	20		
Kirby	35	15	20	37	11	26	41	21	20		
GW	35	14	21	37	11	26	41	20	21		
Squirt	35	14	21	37	11	26	41	20	21		
JP	35	13	22	37	10	27	41	18	23

Sonic

Code:

Sonic	f-throw	[40-13=27]	b-throw	[67-43=24]*	up-throw [45-30=15]	d-throw	[64-39=25]
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	35	27	8	38	28	10	38	15	23	39	25	14
Snake	35	27	8	38	27	11	38	15	23	39	25	14
Bowser	35	27	8	38	27	11	38	15	23	39	25	14
DDD	35	27	8	38	27	11	38	15	23	39	25	14
Zard	35	27	8	38	26	12	38	15	23	39	25	14
Ganon	35	27	8	38	27	11	38	15	23	39	25	14
Samus	35	27	8	38	26	12	38	15	23	39	25	14
Wario	35	27	8	38	25	13	38	15	23	39	25	14
Yoshi	35	27	8	38	25	13	38	15	23	39	25	14
Rob	35	27	8	38	26	12	38	15	23	39	25	14
Ike	35	27	8	38	25	13	38	15	23	39	25	14
CF	35	27	8	38	25	13	38	15	23	39	25	14
Link	35	27	8	38	25	13	38	15	23	39	25	14
Wolf	35	27	8	38	25	13	38	15	23	39	25	14
Ivy	35	27	8	38	24	14	38	15	23	39	25	14
Lucario	35	27	8	38	24	14	38	15	23	39	25	14
Mario	35	27	8	38	23	15	38	15	23	39	25	14
Luigi	35	27	8	38	23	15	38	15	23	39	25	14
sonic	35	27	8	38	23	15	38	15	23	39	25	14
Lucas	35	27	8	38	22	16	38	15	23	39	25	14
Ness	35	27	8	38	22	16	38	15	23	39	25	14
Pit	35	27	8	38	22	16	38	15	23	39	25	14
dK	35	27	8	38	23	15	38	15	23	39	25	14
IC	35	27	8	38	22	16	38	15	23	39	25	14
TL	35	27	8	38	22	16	38	15	23	39	25	14
Peach	35	27	8	38	22	16	38	15	23	39	25	14
Marth	35	27	8	38	21	17	38	15	23	39	25	14
Sheik	35	27	8	38	20	18	38	15	23	39	25	14
Zelda	35	27	8	38	20	18	38	15	23	39	25	14
Falco	35	27	8	38	19	19	38	15	23	39	25	14
Olimar	35	27	8	38	19	19	38	15	23	39	25	14
ZSS	35	27	8	38	20	18	38	15	23	39	25	14
Fox	35	27	8	38	19	19	38	15	23	39	25	14
MK	35	27	8	38	19	19	38	15	23	39	25	14
Pikachu	35	27	8	38	19	19	38	15	23	39	25	14
Kirby	35	27	8	38	19	19	38	15	23	39	25	14
GW	35	27	8	38	18	20	38	15	23	39	25	14
Squirt	35	27	8	38	18	20	38	15	23	39	25	14
JP	35	27	8	38	16	22	38	15	23	39	25	14

Squirtle
Toon Link
wario
wolf
Yoshi

Code:

Yoshi	f-throw	[40-20=20]*	b-throw	[44-20=24]*	up-throw [44-13=31]*	d-throw	[35-15=20]*	
	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0	HS@0	Lag	Adv @0
DK	32	23	9	36	28	8	34	36	-2	50	23	27
Snake	32	23	9	36	27	9	34	35	-1	50	23	27
Bowser	32	22	10	36	27	9	34	35	-1	50	23	27
DDD	32	22	10	36	27	9	34	35	-1	50	23	27
Zard	32	22	10	36	27	9	34	34	0	50	22	28
Ganon	32	22	10	36	26	10	34	33	1	50	22	28
Samus	32	22	10	36	26	10	34	33	1	50	21	29
Wario	32	21	11	36	26	10	34	34	0	50	21	29
Yoshi	32	21	11	36	26	10	34	34	0	50	21	29
Rob	32	21	11	36	25	11	34	33	1	50	22	28
Ike	32	21	11	36	26	10	34	33	1	50	21	29
CF	32	21	11	36	25	11	34	32	2	50	21	29
Link	32	21	11	36	25	11	34	32	2	50	21	29
Wolf	32	20	12	36	24	12	34	31	3	50	20	30
Ivy	32	20	12	36	24	12	34	31	3	50	20	30
Lucario	32	20	12	36	24	12	34	31	3	50	20	30
Mario	32	20	12	36	24	12	34	31	3	50	20	30
Luigi	32	19	13	36	23	13	34	30	4	50	19	31
sonic	32	19	13	36	23	13	34	29	5	50	19	31
Lucas	32	19	13	36	23	13	34	29	5	50	18	32
Ness	32	19	13	36	23	13	34	29	5	50	18	32
Pit	32	19	13	36	23	13	34	29	5	50	18	32
dK	32	19	13	36	22	14	34	28	6	50	19	31
IC	32	18	14	36	22	14	34	29	5	50	19	31
TL	32	18	14	36	22	14	34	29	5	50	19	31
Peach	32	18	14	36	22	14	34	28	6	50	18	32
Marth	32	17	15	36	21	15	34	27	7	50	17	33
Sheik	32	17	15	36	21	15	34	26	8	50	17	33
Zelda	32	17	15	36	21	15	34	26	8	50	17	33
Falco	32	16	16	36	20	16	34	26	8	50	16	34
Olimar	32	16	16	36	20	16	34	26	8	50	16	34
ZSS	32	16	16	36	19	17	34	25	9	50	16	34
Fox	32	16	16	36	20	16	34	25	9	50	16	34
MK	32	16	16	36	19	17	34	24	10	50	16	34
Pikachu	32	16	16	36	19	17	34	24	10	50	16	34
Kirby	32	16	16	36	19	17	34	24	10	50	16	34
GW	32	15	17	36	18	18	34	23	11	50	15	35
Squirt	32	15	17	36	18	18	34	23	11	50	15	35
JP	32	14	18	36	16	20	34	21	13	50	13	37

Zelda
Zero Suit Samus

Veril · Nov 30, 2009

reserved for science

Code:

[SIZE="4"]Throw lag formula: Largely Beta Accurate, will be updated frequently[/SIZE]

being edited to remove typos ;p

Code:

[SIZE="4"]Throw Damage total (kbd)[/SIZE]				

Char	f	b	u	d
Bowser	12(12)	12(12)	10(2)	16(4)
CF	9(4)	9(4)	7(3)	7(7)
Zard	10(10)	10(10)	11(3)	11(1)
DDD	12(6)	14(9)	9(5)	8(4)
dK	11(11)	10(10)	9(5)	9(9)
DK	8,9,?	11(11)	9(9)	7(7)
Falco	??(??)	??(??)	??(??)	9(1)
Fox	7(3)	2(2)+	2(2)+	9(1)
GW	8(8)	8(8)	8(8)	6(6)
Ganon	13 (8)	10 (5)	10 (3)	7(7)
IC	8(5)	6(6)	6(?)	6(6)
Ike	6 (4)	6 (4)	6(4)	6(4)
Ivy	8(8)	10(10)	10(10)	10(10)
JP	10(5)	10(10)	10(10)	10(5)
Kirby	8(8)	8(8)	10(10)	12(2)
Link	7(4)	7(4)	7(2)	7(4)
Lucario	7(7)	10(10)	??(??)	10(10)
Lucas	10(10)	10(10)	10(10)	7(7)
Luigi	9(9)	12(12)	8(8)	6(6)
Mario	9(9)	12(12)	8(8)	6(6)
Marth	4(4)	4(4)	4(4)	4(4)
MK	9(3)	10(4)	12(12)	11(1)
Ness	11(11)	11(11)	10(10)	9(4)
[COLOR="Purple"]Olimar[/COLOR] 	7(7)	9(9)	??(??)	??(??)
[COLOR="White"]Olimar[/COLOR]	6(6)	7(7)	6(6)	6(5)
Peach	10(8)	11(9)	8(6)	7(7)
Pikachu	10 (2)	9(9)	10(5)	8 (3)
Pit	10(4)	8(8)	11(7)	6(4)
Rob	10(10)	10(10)	10(10)	10(10)
Samus	??(??)	??(??)	??(??)	6(6)
Sheik	7(2)	7(2)	5(2)	6(3)
Snake	9(9)	9(9)	10(10)	12(12)
Sonic	??(??)	??(??)	??(??)	??(??)
Squirt	9(7)	10(5)	11(9)	7(5)
TL	7(4)	7(4)	7(2)	7(4)
Wario	12(12)	9 (7)	10 (6)	7 (3)
Wolf	7(3)	7(3)	7(2)	12(6)
Yoshi	7(7)	7(7)	12(12)	4(4)
Zelda	12(12)	11(11)	9(9)	??(??)
ZSS	9(7)	8(6)	10(8)	6(4)

Code:

[SIZE="4"]Weight Modifiers[/SIZE]

1.20    Bowser (1.12 in GSH)
1.16    Donkey Kong
1.13    Snake
1.12    King Dedede
1.10    Charizard
1.09    Ganondorf
1.08    Samus
1.07    Wario / Yoshi
1.06    R.O.B.
1.05    Ike
1.04    Captain Falcon / Link
1.02    Wolf
1.00    Ivysaur / Lucario
0.98    Mario
0.97    Luigi
0.95    Sonic
0.94    Lucas / Ness / Pit
0.93    Diddy Kong
0.92    Ice Climbers / Toon Link
0.90    Peach
0.87    Marth
0.85    Sheik / Zelda
0.82    Falco / Olimar
0.81    Zero Suit Samus
0.80    Fox
0.79    Metaknight / Pikachu
0.78    Kirby
0.75    Game & Watch / Squirtle
0.68    Jigglypuff

Code:

[SIZE="4"]Landing Lag: Beta accurate[/SIZE]	
				
----- nair	fair	bair	uair	dair
Bowser	12	12	18	14	20
CF	7	9	7	7	9
Zard	11	16	11	11	18
DDD	8	15	11	11	25
diddy	7	15	7	11	15
DK	8	15	8	11	16
Falco	7	17	8	8	7
Fox	7	9	8	11	7
G&W	7	11	7	7	15
Ganon	11	15	11	11	18
Ike	7	11	11	9	14
Ivysaur	7	14	7	11	14
JP	8	8	8	8	15
Kirby	7	8	7	7	8
Link	7	7	7	10	25
Lucario	7	9	8	11	7
Lucas	8	7	7	7	12
Luigi	7	11	7	7	7
Mario	7	13	7	7	10
Marth	7	7	11	7	16
MK	8	8	7	7	8
Ness	9	7	7	7	14
Olimar	8	8	8	15	15
Peach	7	11	7	7	7
Pikachu	13	8	15	12	20
Pit	12	7	7	12	12
Popo	8	10	8	15	21
Rob	7	7	7	11	11
Samus	7	7	7	7	7
Sheik	7	7	7	11	13
Snake	15	15	15	11	15
Sonic	7	15	7	11	15
Squirt	7	12	7	11	10
TL	8	9	7	11	20
Wario	7	8	15	7	10
Wolf	7	15	7	7	10
Yoshi	7	8	7	7	10
Zelda	7	11	11	11	11
ZSS	7	8	7	7	20

Code:

[Size="4"]Jump Data:[/SIZE]
Char    jump --- SH ----------- FH
----- startup lands-on airtime  lands-on airtime
Bowser	7	35	27	61	53
CF	4	36	31	57	52
Zard	5	42	36	61	55
DDD	5	46	40	65	59
dK	4	43	38	68	63
DK	5	42	36	69	63
Falco	5	33	27	64	58
Fox	4	28	23	46	41
GW	4	43	38	63	58
Ganon	6	38	31	56	49
IC	4	39	34	75	70
Ike	5	42	36	62	56
Ivy	4	46	41	65	60
JP	5	48	42	64	58
Kirby	4	46	41	65	60
Link	6	40	33	58	51
Lucario	4	48	43	73	68
Lucas	4	37	32	59	54
Luigi	4	53	48	84	79
Mario	5	40	34	63	57
Marth	4	45	40	63	58
MK	4	38	33	60	55
Ness	4	44	39	67	62
Olimar	4	52	47	76	71
Peach	4	44	39	69	64
Pikachu	4	45	40	65	60
Pit	4	44	39	64	59
Rob	5	50	44	74	68
Samus	4	49	44	82	77
Sheik	4	35	30	55	50
Snake	7	42	34	55	47
Sonic	4	42	37	62	57
Squirt	4	38	33	68	63
TL	4	49	44	70	65
Wario	5	44	38	63	57
Wolf	4	34	29	50	45
Yoshi	5	52	46	74	68
Zelda	5	45	39	74	68
ZSS	4	45	40	75	70

MK26 · Nov 30, 2009

I read it all

Not entirely sure what the point is, but i read it all

(i knew marth's btrhow was lol, but not that lol)

Veril · Nov 30, 2009

If you don't get the point... fail

MK26 · Nov 30, 2009

uhh...its got sometihng to do with...throws?

I kid, i kid.

btw, what is this:

I'm not sharing the JP data until after BtL2, if ever. Her throws aren't broke in any way shape or form.

bambam95 · Nov 30, 2009

TL;DR please explain

goodoldganon · Nov 30, 2009

I really don't understand why every character needs a good throw, especially when some characters are good already. Seems kinda silly. Two things happen when we 'fix' Marth's B-throw.

Option one:
It is still his worst throw and Marth uses once in a million, which I guess is better then once in a NEVER.

Option two:
We give Marth a new throw and a new option. Good/great characters like Marth don't need more options.

Don't get me wrong the data is litterally mind blowing. Kudos for actually being one of the few people that gives me what I like to see, hard numbers. I really just don't see the problem with having some characters have terrible throws. Characters don't need all good moves to be viable in fighters, and most of Brawl+'s cast has a unique, different, and viable moveset. The few that don't could use this massive proposed throw tweak.

My 2 cents.

Veril · Nov 30, 2009

I understand where you're coming from. However, bringing all the throws up to a standard of usability removes any issues of character bias from the equation. All throws won't be good, but no throw will be so terrible it is never used.

The reduction in hitstun weakens a lot of throws, I am especially curious about characters like Kirby, who may have lost a massive component of his game in the beta.

Alphatron · Nov 30, 2009

I gotta check this thread out tommorow.

Dantarion · Nov 30, 2009

Do you do all your testing by hand?
There should be some way to automate this.

STUFF2o · Nov 30, 2009

I'm assuming this has something to do with
1. Throws
2. Brawl+
3. Spending hours and hours doing something I don't understand
4. Graphs
5. Angry Faces

Veril · Dec 1, 2009

Dantarion said:
Do you do all your testing by hand?

Yes.

Update 12/1 1am: Fox, falco, Ganon, Sonic data added

Dan_X · Dec 1, 2009

Excellent work Veril! Great job with that data, very impressive! I agree, every throw should have its use. It's really quite stupid for a character to have no throw worth using, or one throw that's absolute garbage.

Keep up the good work! :D

STUFF2o said:
I'm assuming this has something to do with
1. Throws
2. Brawl+
3. Spending hours and hours doing something I don't understand
4. Graphs
5. Angry Faces

spot on! Haha.

Rykoshet · Dec 1, 2009

Is this a bible worth of text and data to state that marth's back throw sucks, serves no purpose that down throw doesnt already cover and should never be used and debating on whether or not each and every single last throw for a character should have a use?

I didnt actually read it, so I apologize for asking for a summary due to laziness. However if my assessment is correct, then the answer is every character has at least one worthless throw, it's honestly no big deal.

Veril · Dec 1, 2009

No offense, but I won't be responding to comments that make it clear a person didn't read this.

ThatGuyYouMightKnow · Dec 1, 2009

Veril said:
No offense, but I won't be responding to comments that make it clear a person didn't read this.

I'm sorry Veril, but I have to post inb4troll'd. xD

Anyway, I somewhat understood it, still a bit confused, but at least I read the whole thing.

Question: What's this about ROF? I know it has something to do with reaction time, like you stated.

Veril · Dec 1, 2009

ROF stands for "release on frame". DI is read the frame before release.

updated second post so that people can access raw data more easily.

IMPORTANT: I have no tolerance for spam, trolling, or any BS whatsoever. I will report any and all posts that do not contribute to this thread and are not amusing enough for me to tolerate.

HolyNightmare · Dec 4, 2009

Nice ROB data, I know dthrow is the best throw to combo stuff

I still think upthrow should be changed to something else, it's a pretty useless throw when you have dthrow which does the same thing and better.

...:::VILE:::... · Dec 4, 2009

I haven't read any of the posts in this thread and i don't really want to, i just wanna say that you can use PSA to get perfect frame data on a lot of moves (sorry if you are using this method, but like i said, i didn't read anything).

JCaesar · Dec 4, 2009

So about the ROB dthrow -> nair stuff, this is only testing if the timing is possible, and not whether it's possible to reach them after the dthrow, right?

Generally at kill %s, you can only reach them with the top of the nair, which comes several frames after the first nair hitbox comes out. I don't know if that would make a difference for some of these.

Veril · Dec 4, 2009

JCaesar said:
So about the ROB dthrow -> nair stuff, this is only testing if the timing is possible, and not whether it's possible to reach them after the dthrow, right?

I did actually perform d-throw nair as a combo, so I know for sure that it is possible on most of the cast across a wide % range. I haven't tested if it works at KO% on all characters. I plan to eventually, but I need to get data for some of the characters I've ignored... except Yoshi, he gets no love.

Currently working on: Link, ZSS, Snake, Pit, Kirby. I'll try and have their data up later.

...:::VILE:::... said:
you can use PSA to get perfect frame data on a lot of moves.

Not really true with throws. The IASA in PSA and FAF don't match the cases where I've checked out the effect of throw modifications. This might be due to the throws in question having internal damage. I don't really know or care why it doesn't work out perfectly, but it doesn't. I do all my testing by hand for any of the throw related stuff. I've got a really solid testing procedure, so its not as insane as it looks (though it is time consuming with all the math, analysis, actually putting all the data up in excel, etc.).

Normal move data is definitely not worth testing by hand when you've got PSA, but throws are weird.

MK26 · Dec 10, 2009

y'know, i'd be really interested in seeing how a melee-style techchase dthrow would work for kirby...but i suppose one that sets up for air chases would be a little less polarizing against fastfallers

and i never realized how much of an advantage his bthrow gives...do you expect to change that?

Veril · Dec 10, 2009

No I don't expect to change that or any other high advantage throws. It actually isn't that high, since advantage doesn't take into account knockback. I WILL NOT BE NERFING ANY THROW THAT DOES NOT RESULT IN A NEAR UNIVERSAL (all% all char) AUTOCOMBO OR EXTREMELY POWERFUL CG. Throws already got weakened substantially by the change in hitstun from .48 to .46

I want to optimize throws by numerically tweaking them, not by radically altering them. Changes like that, if they are made, will be discussed extensively beforehand, and I will be opposed unless a very good reason for doing so is given.

EDIT: Kirby's b-throw advantage isn't actually that high. I don't know where you got that from ;p

SymphonicSage12 · Dec 10, 2009

Thank god for this. I would like to just share some ideas with you.

I play as Sheik. I will say this as of right now: Her throws SUCK, besides forward throw.

Her up throw simply sends too far, and going straight up, she really only has one option: uair, which isn't that good. I suggest that this throw be optimized by having less base knockback, and sending more behind her, but still vertically, to give the options of both bair, uair, and perhaps turn-around fair.

Her back throw is just WAY suckish. I would have it be more a tech-chaser-like usage, only backwards....

I would also recommend speeding up the endlag by quite a bit.....it has terrible endlag...

idk these are just my suggestions. take them as you will.

JCaesar · Dec 10, 2009

Sheik's throws suck? Are you high?

I guess I'll go into more detail instead of just ridiculing you.

Dthrow has guaranteed followups at nearly any % on anyone regardless of DI.

Uthrow is good against FFers when dthrow wouldn't get them high enough for a guaranteed followup.

Fthrow and Bthrow are useful when you're near the edge to mindgame them into bad DI, because they both give you a substantial advantage if they DI in. Otherwise, they are both outclassed by dthrow.

All in all (well, mostly because of dthrow), Sheik has one of the best grab games of the cast.

Veril · Dec 10, 2009

Sheik is made of throw combos. She has a ton of setups for the grab, which itself is amazing. Even her mediocre throws are great when compared to the rest of the cast (most b-throws range from mediocre to bad atm fyi). I haven't bothered redoing her hitstun testing from 5.0 cause it was f***ing scary back then and all it will tell me is that... yes, she's ****.

She has the best overall grab game in all of B+. Olimar, Diddy, MK, ICs, and Pikachu are also amazing but Sheik is like, a class all by herself. Right now I'm mostly looking at throws that are so bad they yield advantages that permit absolutely no followups even on paper. Ganon's b-throw for example has a -10 frame advantage.

It makes my life easier if I avoid changing things that are already good, like Sheik.

EDIT: I'll put up her hitstun data later. If it shows that I'm wrong, I will eat my words.

GHNeko · Dec 10, 2009

I demand you remove the last A out of marth's name. >:C

Also, how do you record this cuz I'd like to help.

SymphonicSage12 · Dec 10, 2009

EDIT: ignore this post plz

Veril · Dec 10, 2009

What I need most is someone with PSA experience and access to it, who I trust, who can make the new .pacs for me.

Sup Neko. I will remove the A from Marth's name if you cook up some new .pacs for me (changed from the GSH ones we currently have). If you get on AIM later tonight I'll get a list together.

@Symphonic: if you have frame advance, its a great way to look into a characters combos. You can check them frame perfect, with DI, and save the replay for reference. Buffering followups is crucial for getting those tough combos, and it helps to be able to see exactly how to execute them. I'd help more, but I'm not a sheik player.

I felt like I should post this: Its pretty much everyone's only argument against what I'm trying to do, so far nobody has given me a counter-response.

17:29 <Yeroc> i don't really think the game needs it
17:29 <Yeroc> i think [the throw game] is fine the way it is

17:31 <Veril> My main point is, I can do it, it will be as perfect as possible
17:31 <Veril> there is no balance related reason not to
17:31 <Veril> it by far helps lower tiers
17:31 <Veril> and makes for a much more interesting game
17:31 <Veril> as opposed to d-throw all day with CF in 5.0 for example
17:32 <Veril> the changes aren't pointless, they aren't random, they aren't detrimental to balance
17:32 <Veril> they are more thought out than anything I have seen
17:33 <Veril> by and large minor but
17:34 <Veril> Some are completely necessary, like toning down Cape's d-throw nerf to kirby
17:34 <Veril> or buffing Links godawful throws
17:34 <Veril> most are simply the right thing to do

ThatGuy · Feb 28, 2010

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267143

So as I posted in this thread, please re-evaluate the weight modifier.

Magus420 · Feb 28, 2010

The speed of the throw animation already scales by the same amount for equal differences in weight in both Melee and Brawl. A big difference between the 2 games however is that in Melee the knockback from throws is not at all affected by weight unlike on normal attacks, while in Brawl it is. Pichu survives Mewtwo's u-throw significantly longer than Samus does despite Samus literally being 2x the weight of Pichu (55 vs 110), since the only thing that affects how far they go from the throw is their fallspeed and Samus is floaty.

ThatGuy · Feb 28, 2010

Thanks for the clarification Magus. The issue still stands.

StrikerX22 · Apr 21, 2010

Pardon the revive, but I've been wondering about your views/conclusions on ThatGuy's observations:

ThatGuy said:
... The heavier a character is, the longer it takes for the thrower to recover from their throwing animation. This is the case now, however the difference is barely noticable. A quick test jer performed for me ... was taking Marth and Fthrowing Jiggs and trying to follow up ASAP, and then he did the same with DK and the difference in lag was way too little for the amount of weight discrepency these characters share.

The heavy characters get shafted extremely hard here because they don't fly as far as a floaty character, but the difference in throw animation is not enough to cover for their time to recover from the throw. As a result, heavy characters get wrecked by guaranteed setups at virtually any percentage!

This is essentially the reason why in Melee, Fox can Uthrow Uair Jiggs very consistently, while it's actually not guaranteed on a character such as Ganon (with proper DI). I believe that the tone-down in throw animation delay is because of Brawl having the hitstun cancelling mechanic, thus making guaranteed follow-ups from throws night impossible the majority of the time.

Please find a solution for this. I'm tired of getting Uthrow/Dthrow to anything-you-want every grab. Thanks!

And some facts:

Magus420 said:
The speed of the throw animation already scales by the same amount for equal differences in weight in both Melee and Brawl. A big difference between the 2 games however is that in Melee the knockback from throws is not at all affected by weight unlike on normal attacks, while in Brawl it is. ...

But this doesn't really answer whether or not this is an okay thing competitively. I may be missing something here being a simple casual, but I'd like to know what you think.

Magus420 said:
... Pichu survives Mewtwo's u-throw significantly longer than Samus does despite Samus literally being 2x the weight of Pichu (55 vs 110), since the only thing that affects how far they go from the throw is their fallspeed and Samus is floaty.

So should Brawl+ be changed to have throw distance depend on fall speed? (or at least the ones affected by weight?) Or perhaps another solution? Have Veril's changes actually been implemented? I'm guessing not since the data isn't all in. I'm not sure how that would affect this for the thrown in any good way anyhow, if it's needed. Are some of these "universal" enough to be nerfed individually? etc.

shanus · Apr 23, 2010

If it oculd have been fixed already, it would have.

StrikerX22 · Apr 24, 2010

No offense, but I was hoping for something more than that. I was asking for opinions on the matter. What is it precisely that cannot be fixed? I assume Veril's work is possible? And while I'm not saying whatever you're referring to is possible, there's been a trend of things becoming possible over time in this project, no?

shanus · Apr 24, 2010

StrikerX22 said:
No offense, but I was hoping for something more than that. I was asking for opinions on the matter. What is it precisely that cannot be fixed? I assume Veril's work is possible? And while I'm not saying whatever you're referring to is possible, there's been a trend of things becoming possible over time in this project, no?

Considering I am the most active coder currently, and all that Veril's stuff is is just adjusting endlags, they are radically different in their entirety. One is simply adding a line to a code to speed up or slow down a move, the other is a radical new engine code which is simply not possible.

Simply put, the hitstun formula is very difficult to follow and unobservable in fighter.pac (where all the latest codes come from) and we can't find a way to remove weight from the knockback formula, so it will likely NEVER change....

StrikerX22 · Apr 24, 2010

Thanks, that clears it up.

I'm supposing it would not be very easy to have a formula based on the character being thrown (perhaps a combination of weight and fall speed, though I'm guessing you can't mess with weight in any form), to perhaps add more endlag? I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but perhaps. Or maybe having a formula isn't possible since it's a constant I assume? Hence why having to edit an entirely different area to do this on the fly.

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