Matchup Re-Discussion: King Dedede

KayLo! · Dec 15, 2009

Pikachu vs. King Dedede
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 59:41 in Pikachu's favor
Can we CG him?: Yes

- 0% - 67% + regrab
- Fthrow x 10 > grab

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212291
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 65:35 in Pikachu's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242610

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
DDD Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229809 / http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224054 (both incomplete)

Summary:

In progress.

The Phazon Assassin · Dec 15, 2009

First.

Pikachu's an annoying little rodent; hard to hit, hard to catch. When we do catch him we can't do much. Downthrow > Tech Chase, or Bthrow. Utilt is difficult to hit if he's on the ground, offstage he's one of the more difficult to edgeguard, and he can CG Dedede. Also, "combos" into Down B can get annoying because it's a good way to KO Dedede before 150, where he's comfortable taking another 50 damage. And don't you guys have some sorta Uair > Footstool > Quack nonsense? Isn't that easier to do on Dedede? And, that Nair OoS? So g*y.

However, aside from Down B, Pikachu struggles to kill Dedede. Thunder camp is only effective if the Dedede player doesn't realize that he has a shield button, a Ftilt which negates the move, and four midair jumps. Down B combos can be avoided with proper DI and/or a well timed airdodge. Also, from what I hear, there's no buffered Dthrow CG on Dedede (<3). Dedede has the tools to KO Pikachu fairly quickly, but Pika's speed makes it hard.

Overall, I see this matchup being 50-50, if not, ever so slightly in Pika's favor. But, then again, what do I know? I'm not that good at this game, I can't get ranked in a state like PA, and my only Pika experience comes from KayLo. <__<

OMG, please don't hurt me......

KayLo! · Dec 15, 2009

-_-

Anyways.

I'm interested to hear what both Pikas and DDDs have to say..... our MU number is 59:41 and theirs is 65:35..... kind of a big difference.

I'm not sure about the buffered dthrow CG thing, but Prime took it out of the CG thread (I also spoke to him on AIM about it, and iirc, he said it's not guaranteed), and every time I try it, you manage to either footstool or jump out..... and I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right. I know there's some wonky fthrow x2 > dthrow > pummel > dthrow x? combination that we have to do to make it work, but you were still escaping, so..... whatevs.

In any case. My only advice until later is: don't get impatient or too aggressive. Camp a lot, use your speed to your advantage, and recover wisely since he can grab/bair us out of Skull Bash and QA.

60:40 imo.

55:45 if the DDD can perfect shield tjolts exceptionally well. (You think I'm joking, but I'm so serious.)

Legendary Pikachu · Dec 15, 2009

Personally, I love facing DDD's. As hard as some people make it out to be, all pika's have to do is:

1) Avoid excessive grabs from DDD
2) Avoid b-air (maybe f-air)
3) Avoid u-tilt (invincible during some frames) (pika can crouch under most or all of it *plz confirm kaylo*)
4) Avoid the stupid suicide crap that you KNOW is coming.

I feel that unless some pika's are newb, there no other thing that can land on a good spacing quick pika. Now, I try to not dis DDD's at all, but i feel that at the most essential metagame of even skilled ones, it boils down to these 4 aspects. Use them well... DDD will rock; don't use them... DDD almost CANT WIN! A good pika will know how to avoid them... a good DDD will be MAKE these 4 things WORK regardless--"the 20% that produces 80% of the results" they say ^_^.

T-jolt and damage DDD as much as you can safely, refresh your killing moves of choice by jabbing random Dee's and Doo's (I am surprised why so little pika's do this when they have the time), gimp early with a thunder "combo" *cough*cough* of some kind, or just damage>killing move later. Pika's who are too reckless will definitely get whooped--you can be aggressive (with f-air and b-air), but should not be RECKLESS. Just dodge, block, and spotdode the things that are coming at you (none of DDD's are fast at all).

Get ESAM in here. Ask him to go beat up that Seibrik guy.... ^_^

Here's Chudat's Kirby showing how ITS DONE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaejEx6co9Q.
~although some could just say "its because its chudat"... it's still a kirby, who doesn't have ANY chaingrab or projectile. It's all about perspective ^_^.

On another note, if pika's offstage against DDD's b-air, pika will either live if he's good or die like a fly if the pika is not as experienced--no way around that, reading vs. reading.

That's just me oversimplifying things. But for those out that can only digest simple things first, here it is ^_^.

PUNK9 · Dec 15, 2009

Honestly, I think this Match-up is pretty easy.

We can CG, him, But unlike 90% of the cast he can't CG us.

But he can tech chase >.< very well.

Like LDPK said, We can refresh our kill move(F-smash, Up-smash, N-air) by just jabbing the wadidols lol xD
But if you think about it, not all DDD's use them. Like all the DDD players I'v faced at like WATO, and Gigabites(while it was still open) and other little smash fests in UCF, only like 60% use them

But still, I good thing to know if they do use them.
Another thing that is in our advantage. Is size. Pikachu is Small, DDD is huge.

Now what does this mean? (Green is good things, Red is bad)
Well first off, Harder to kill(duh)
DDD can kill very early
Pikachu can Duck under U-tilt. (One of DDD's best kill moves)
Can't get hit that easyliy by DDD
Can land Thunder on him easier than veryone eles in the cast
Plus it's easyer to grab DDD than most of the cast.

So 4/6
So i would say that's an Advantage.

Now Pikachu isn't reallyl easly gimped, but DDD can gimp. B-air plus his 4 jumps.
So overall I would ether say. 60-40 or 65-35
Both In pika's Advantake, 60-40 if the DDD uses teh Walldaliees. and Can PS pika's t-jolts.

KayLo! · Dec 15, 2009

ESAM better get his *** in here.

Anyways, this is definitely one of Pikachu's easier MUs. We're much faster, camp better, can combo DDD easily, and thunder can get some early kills if you can set it up.

At long distance, we're at an advantage. Tjolts > Waddles, and we can use Waddles to refresh our moves. The only things you need to be aware of are Gordos (which are slow, but if he risks it and happens to throw one at point blank, you probably won't have enough time to react) and the ones that spit out electricity, because that's a free -- most likely a smash -- hit for DDD if he dthrows you into it.

At melee range, we're also at an advantage. As long as you don't attack his shield, DDD is considerably slower than Pika, so even though he has some annoyingly long ranged and disjointed moves (ftilt, dair, bair, fair.......), we can usually hit him before he hits us. Just don't get grabbed -- easier said than done, but as long as you're outside of his grab/pivot grab/dash-canceled grab range or effectively pressuring him, you should be fine..... and our air game > his.

You generally don't want to be above DDD. His utilt will trade with dair if they clash, and if you're at high percentage, you will die and he won't. His uair is madd disjointed (stupid hammer), so it beats our aerials when spaced correctly. If he's trying to stay underneath you while you land, QA away.... DDD is tied (with Zelda

) for third slowest ground speed in the game, so he ain't catchin up in time. His horizontal air speed isn't so hot either.

On the ground or in the air at mid range is where you don't want to be. Mid range in the air means you'll get bair/faired, and mid range on the ground means you'll get standing or dash grabbed. (As I said before, aim to stay just outside of this range or to be pressuring him up close.) Also be aware when you jump up to uair/nair him from below.... he can use a midair jump and dair you, and its disjoint will eat through our aerials if you don't reach him in time. Dair also hits on either side of DDD a bit, so be careful when coming at his sides as well.

When he throws Waddles, perfect shield and dash grab him. Look for any opportunities to grab, because our throws are too good in this MU. At low percentages, we can fthrow CG. At mid-moderately high percentages (because he's so fat and falls so fast), dthrow > nair combos.

If he spotdodge spams, as some DDDs will try to do, dsmash to catch him out of his IFs.

Ack. I gotta run, but I'll add more later. @.@

T3h Albino · Dec 15, 2009

This matchup is stupid, and after all that i've read I can't imagine I'm going to say something that hasn't been posted, but from my overall matchup experience I'll try and convey my thoughts.

Overview-
K so normally you'd look at this matchup and probably think "pikachu ***** this penguin", although this matchup can be **** for pika it doesn't really have to be. There are a lot of things d3 can do to pikachu, and If you're not informed you'll be falling for them.

K so lets look at the specs.
DDD
Can you cg him? No
Are you heavier? Yeah
Easy to edgeguard? Average
Pikachu
Can you cg him? Yes
Are you heavier? No
Easy to edgeguard? Below Average

Alright lets address the first thing. Pikachu is a very quick character, and avoiding the grab with dedede can be very difficult. With the help of platforms, good timing, and abuse of your range avoiding grabs will be made much easier. I reccomend banning FD in this matchup, as it is your worst neutral in this matchup. K now that FD is out of the way we have 3 neutrals *or if you're lucky 2*. SV is somewhat win/lose. The win being you have a floating platform to camp on, and escape his grab tricks with. The lose being, the stage is kind of large, and there is a lot of room for him to cg you. BF may just be the best choice for neutrals. The small space allows you to easily pressure the rat *what you want*, It also allows you to camp him very well with the 3 platforms. Ultimately the stage choice comes down to where you're most comfortable, but thse 2 are your best choices for neutrals.

Now when the match starts, the rat is going to be fishing for grabs. Be weary, and do not do anything too laggy, or too risky. The cg last from 0 to around 70 and leads into nair, or if he reads you right fsmash/dsmash. Ways to avoid being grabbed by pikachu are: grabbing him before he grabs you. Your grab range is ****ing huge, his is tiny, think about it. If he's dash grabbing you, your standard grab beats it. Your pivot grab beats out just about anything he can do on the ground as well. Another good choice to do when trying to avoid grabs is: Inhale. Inhale acts as a grab, and also beats his grab. If they see it coming and try and spot dodge or shield they still lose, and take a good 10. This however can be risky, if the pikachu decides to fsmash/dsmash. Lastly just camping works. Space your ftilts and waddles effectively to beat out his shallow ground game.

Now that we're done with the ground lets move onto in the air. This is where pikachu will be doing the rest of his damage after/if he manages to cg you. His QAC to nair, uair, fair, and bair mixups are all extremely good against d3. Our large mass just makes us easy targets for his fair, and bair. If you get caught in one of these aerials, just SDI out and try and punish his landing with bair/inhale. If you're getting juggled by his uairs, just try your best to get on the ground and to continue beating him there. Now this may be coming off like d3 is just completely ****ed in the air, this is not true. D3 does have his super, amazing, spectacular, fantastic, back air. Your back air beats everything he can do in the air. There is nothing he has that can stop your back air from ****** him, you just have to be smart about using it.

Lastly, the thing that frustrates me the most about this matchup OFF STAGE ! K so pikachu gives the penguin a lot of trouble offstage. He has just the tools needed to keep your fatass from making it onto the stage. He has a jab that can force your up+b if you do not sweet spot the ledge. He has a tjolt that can be angled, and used to make you lose a jump. He has QAC, that can make you lose a jump. Nair and Dair, can knock you even farther back off the stage, and he can go out pretty far *stupid up+b*. If pikachu forces you to up+b you're pretty ****ed. His most powerful attack can be used to send you way off the stage, and even provide the rodent with easy kills on d3. If sweetspotted thunder can kill d3 as early as 110. What I try to do when recovering in this matchup, is throw out bairs while floating backwards. By doing this you have an attack that is covering you, so you wont be getting hit by tjolts, or any attack he's doing on stage. Now if pikachu is off the stage there are a few things you can do to him. If he's charging a skullbash, you know exactly what to do. Hop off the level and throw some B's on that *****. Bair beats skullbash easy, and isn't that hard to time *if you do manage to **** this up, be prepared to tech*. If he's going to QA, this can be a mindgame. If you think he's going to land on the level, hop up and grab him. If you think he's going to go for the ledge, just maintain youre position. Another thing you can do if he just land right in front of you while you're on the ledge is dededecide. Edgeguarding pikachu can be pretty difficult, but If you know what you're doing you can put some damage on him.

Another note about the match. PIkachu is a very campy character, and If you do not know how to deal with camping, or if you're one of those people that panics when getting camped this may be a problem. The only thing he can really camp you with are tjolts, and these are beaten by our: ftilt, bair, waddles, and dtilt. Use these moves to cancel the tjolts, while slowly cornering pikachu. Once you have him cornered, it's a matter of what you think he will do/what the best option is. Don't panic if he manages to get away from you when you corner him. Just repeat the process until you get some damage on him. If you're ahead in percent, don't approach him *obvious* let him waste time camping, and just don't get hit by the tjolts.

~Matchup Note: If you are hit with a usmash around 100%, your first reaction could be your last. Using dair to try and momentum cancel after you DI can cost you your stock, as pikachu can read and thunder you while you're still near the blast zone. Keep this in mind, and try to maneuver away from the pikachu, and If you're hit be sure to DI!!!!!!!!!

All in all this matchup isn't so bad for d3. Just be patient and know how and when to punish the pikachu, and you'll be fine.
60-40 Pika, potential 55-45 PIka

o-Serin-o · Dec 15, 2009

TUSM Enterprises said:
His opinion.

Who told you to speak on D3's behalf?

Anyways,

Against Pikachu, we have to play a pretty decent spacing game and avoid getting grabbed, which isn't really difficult considering Pikachu's mediocre grab range, and overall play a better air game (which happens to be my strong point in the game.)

As far as approach options go, Pikachu has Tjolts and QAC-like approaches while we basically have... Nothing. Waddles do block a few Tjolts, but since we can't really rely on them as protection, we have to stay airborne (which is usually my option for EVERYTHING.) Powershields help keep Pikachu from making a really good approach, but it still helps it come closer to grabbing us and CG'ing us to hell, which is usually our job... :dizzy:

Racking damage is easier for Pikachu than it is for us, considering the CG to 67%, and it puts us even more on edge. A good thing for us is that we never ****ing die unless you kill us from the top with thunder from an Usmash. Racking damage for us is rather... unorthodox. Grab > Bthrow > follow up. That's really all it is except for a few mindgames and whatnot. Ftilt works a tad bit for stopping rush approaches, but really doesn't affect Pikachu TOO much.

In the air, we win. Pikachu's mediocre air moves are weak, but allow it to follow up really well. Fortunately for us, bair shuts down most of Pikachu's aerials. Fair is good for a top to bottom coverage and can work pretty well out of a fullhop on our part. Dair is our main starter for combos and damage.

On the ground Pikachu wins. We have slow smashes and only dtilt can space us well enough to not get grabbed. Pikachu's utilt ***** us pretty well if they can manage it get it in considering they can almost always hit you with an uair or nair. Ftilt spaces really well, but like mentioned earlier, it's not that much of a hassle for Pikachu.

Offstage, it's about even. Pikachu's thunder is a real ***** for us while bair shuts down both skull bash and QA. Pikachu can play smarter and go under the stage and make it out alright, since D3 is fat and slow, and D3 can simply airdodge at the right time, avoid the thunder, and make it back onstage. Getting D3 offstage is easy for you thanks to CGs and ftilt. Getting Pikachu is even easier thanks to bthrow > bair and dtilt.

When it comes to killing, we have an easier time killing Pikachu due to weight differences. Utilt on you kills at ~95% and Dsmash kills at around 137% (I need to test this) will really good DI (which would be towards D3.) You can kill us with a well-timed fsmash or a thunder off the top. Usmash won't kill us until 180% with no DI (since we will be trying to avoid the Thunder that is more than likely inevitable.)

Overall, the matchup is 60:40 Pikachu due to his good maneuverability and quick attacks. D3 has to play a bit harder, but it's more than doable.

EDIT: FFFFFFFFFFFFF Alby's writeup was bigger!

The Phazon Assassin · Dec 15, 2009

o-Serin-o said:
Who told you to speak on D3's behalf?

Well, seeing as how I'm a Dedede who's just a little knowledgeable in the matchup, I did. Plus anyone else who's willing to listen to someone's opinion and not blow them off because they need to do something in order to feel better about themselves because no one around here can stand the sight of his name.

I should have taken the high road. Oh well.

Player5 · Dec 15, 2009

TUSM Enterprises said:
Well, seeing as how I'm a Dedede who's just a little knowledgeable in the matchup, I did.

I believe Serin was merely joking about the use of the word "his" (as in it was D3's opinion, you know, the fictional character) not attempting to slander you personally. Or he has some unjustified anger toward you...but I'm leaning towards the former.

KayLo! · Dec 15, 2009

o-Serin-o said:
In the air, we win.

I somewhat disagree with this. I think DDD does well in the air (better than he does on the ground, attack-wise, although his grab is still a *****), but Pikachu is way faster than DDD except for maybe your bair -- not sure how fast it comes out since your board's frame data is sorely lacking.

Provided we're in range, uair/nair/bair will come out faster than pretty much all of your aerials. Yours have more range and disjoint, but we definitely win in terms of speed, so it all depends on spacing. I don't think either character completely dominates the other in the air.

o-Serin-o · Dec 15, 2009

I meant spacing wise in the air.

But more or less yea, neither character completely ***** the air, it's just how you choose to work in the air.

I'm basically just ignoring TUSM. Jokes don't work apparently.

Legendary Pikachu · Dec 15, 2009

KayLo! said:
I somewhat disagree with this. I think DDD does well in the air (better than he does on the ground, attack-wise, although his grab is still a *****), but Pikachu is way faster than DDD except for maybe your bair -- not sure how fast it comes out since your board's frame data is sorely lacking.

Provided we're in range, uair/nair/bair will come out faster than pretty much all of your aerials. Yours have more range and disjoint, but we definitely win in terms of speed, so it all depends on spacing. I don't think either character completely dominates the other in the air.

I must emphasize if the guy is smart with b-air... DDD's is near UNPUNISHABLE when b-airing. If pika is off the ground at level or higher than DDD in height, then I don't think anything could pass through DDD's b-air. If pika is on the ground and DDD is up in the air, pika can't really get around a retreating b-air spam.

If pika is right UNDER him tho, then that'll (u-air and stuff) work. But anything other than that, b-air by DDD is legit. Anytime pika is level or higher than DDD (t-jolt anyone?) DDD's B-air is the perfect 'stop that' response. I think DDD's just need to focus more on spacing and it'll make pika's time approaching a LOT more frustrating.

T3h Albino · Dec 15, 2009

-feels ignored- ;;

o-Serin-o · Dec 15, 2009

Alby, stop looking to undermine my opinion, seriously...

KayLo! · Dec 16, 2009

Legendary Pikachu said:
I must emphasize if the guy is smart with b-air... DDD's is near UNPUNISHABLE when b-airing. If pika is off the ground at level or higher than DDD in height, then I don't think anything could pass through DDD's b-air. If pika is on the ground and DDD is up in the air, pika can't really get around a retreating b-air spam.

If pika is right UNDER him tho, then that'll (u-air and stuff) work. But anything other than that, b-air by DDD is legit. Anytime pika is level or higher than DDD (t-jolt anyone?) DDD's B-air is the perfect 'stop that' response. I think DDD's just need to focus more on spacing and it'll make pika's time approaching a LOT more frustrating.

I already said Pika should avoid being above DDD..... and we're talking about both characters being in the air, not Pika on the ground and DDD in the air. -_-

His bair is definitely legit. But if you're underneath him or in front of him (i.e., where you should be and not behind him or above him where you should know better than to be), our aerials will come out faster than pretty much anything he can do.

@Alby: I saw your write-up, I just haven't had a chance to read it yet. >< I haven't even read all of Serin's yet, tbh, lol.

PZ · Dec 16, 2009

Ok time for me to start my short discription.

They are pretty even in the air reasons: He cant fair chain(unless in the air then it might work. DDD's bair only works from behind unless used well thinked aka ff bair on poor small pikachu while pikachu's is more damage giving. Nair is good for DDD and pikachu its just pikachu's has more knockback and can knock DDD out of his up b if sweetspotted while DDD his nair can stop pikachu's qac capabilities. OOS dair for DDD and OOS nair for pikachu are pretty even

Pikachu and DDD are pretty even on the ground reasons: Pikachu cant tjolt camp since DDD has ftilt and sideb to stop each 1 of them in their tracks. DDD has more smash range then pikahcu for all his smashes but pikachu's are quicker except upsmash i think their even in speed. DDD's tilts out range pikachu's tilts but pikachu's are easier to combo with and pikachu can duck to dodge uptilt.

Pikachu has an slight advantage in recovery options reasons: Pikachu qac is 1 of the greatest recoveries in the game while DDD's upb can be stop by pikachu's uair and nair sweetspotted(probably bair but i dont know can some1 test please

). Pikachu has side b as a recovery option but im pretty sure if you miss the edge DDD wil fsmash you or fair you before you reach the edge. DDD has jumps also he can fair with those jumps to create a barrier unless you time right you wont be able to touch him of course we could use the all mighty PIKAAAAAAAA! to stop this.

DDD has a certain CG with waddle doo until waddle doo disappears so even if pikachu could cg him it be even in the CG department. Heres if you wanna know how to do DDD's other CG: First thorw waddle doo if you get him grab he shocks opponent then grab again. You can do this up to 3 or 4 times. Also dont worry if you have to use a throw waddle doo will just stop him in his tracks with the electricity. I would use fsmash on the 2nd or 3rd time. So pretty much even in the CG department unless DDD's boards find that CG useful.

Pikachu's new footstool combo i dont believe in that. Nothing is that broken even meta knight.

In Air: Even
On the ground: Even
Recovery: Pikachu winz
CG: Need more info but for now Even

My ratio is 55:45 Pikachu's favor, 60:40 if pikachu can CG, and 80:20 if that foostool combo can work.

Pikachu Winz

sorry DDD

Edit: O i forgot to say 1 more thing that wouldnt matter anyway pikachu's sideb can trip heavies almost automatically at low percentages uncharged! once again it might not be helpful ut still im just saying.

The Phazon Assassin · Dec 16, 2009

Dedede's bair can work in front or behind because of the RAR technique. Also, Dedede's Up-B can be stopped by anything as long as his Super Armor frames has ended at the peak of his jump. And the "chain grab" you mentioned is so situational, I wouldn't even bother saying anything about it, and the Waddle Doo walks forward a bit before shooting again so you'd have to, one, keep the opponent occupied, two, reposition yourself, both without hitting the Waddle Doo. So that CG category you have, clearly in Pika's favor.

On a side note, how can you not believe in the Footstool Combo? I mean, the vids are there, and who was it, Anther, who pulled it of in match? Just wondering...

PZ · Dec 16, 2009

TUSM Enterprises said:
Dedede's bair can work in front or behind because of the RAR technique. Also, Dedede's Up-B can be stopped by anything as long as his Super Armor frames has ended at the peak of his jump. And the "chain grab" you mentioned is so situational, I wouldn't even bother saying anything about it, and the Waddle Doo walks forward a bit before shooting again so you'd have to, one, keep the opponent occupied, two, reposition yourself, both without hitting the Waddle Doo. So that CG category you have, clearly in Pika's favor.

On a side note, how can you not believe in the Footstool Combo? I mean, the vids are there, and who was it, Anther, who pulled it of in match? Just wondering...

Well i said the DDD cg might not be helpful and the footstool thing i cant watch it cause its on youtube and youtube videos are banned at school. Give me the link ill watch it when i get home.

The Phazon Assassin · Dec 16, 2009

This thread has everything you need to know.

PZ · Dec 16, 2009

Hard to do but it is good against pretty much every char on brawl but again the setup is almost impossible to do unless they are fat yea its 65:35 to me now.

[FBC] ESAM · Dec 16, 2009

Having dinner soon, will update this post with info.

HOLY **** **** ITS A FAT MOTHER ****ING PENGUIN!

Seriously, this match-up is stupidly easy. For being such a good character, D3 can't really do that much to us. Now, that doesn't mean you don't have to be careful, you always do against D3, but you definitely should be winning more often.

On the level, pikachu has a clear advantage. We have CG, and speed which does better than D3s spacing. Watch out for D3s grab predictions, you will take 16%. Thats like 1/6th of your death percent. So try to take as little damage as possible (obviously)

If you are a QACer, YOU BETTER LEARN NOT TO. D3 will punish your QACs with utilt, grab, d-tilt, and D-smash...all not pleasant things to be hit with. Approach with T-jolts on the ground and running behind them. All he can do is shield it and grab you, but you can mindgame with sidesteps/roll or SH fair them to start a combo/CG.

Once you are winning, don't approach...ever. Especially in this Match-up. You don't need to keep the momentum, you can set back and camp and get some extra % before you are killed at ridiculously early %s (normally below 130% unless you are very careful). D3s can f-tilt your T-jolts, or he can obviously just Powershield them. You won't be able to get too much damage, but more is better than none.

Off the level is where you should be getting most of your damage aside from CGs. Edgeguarding is key and you should be getting at least 20% every time you hit him off the level and you are on the same side as him. T-jolt him to make him waste jumps, and grab his up-b. When you do this, just grab attack him. He has to get out (equivalent to a ground release) and then he has to Up-b again since he has no jumps. This can get you a lot of damage, and you will always be able to hit him for recovering ion the level. When he is coming down, SHAD, and then you have more time than if you Shielded both the fall and the stars. You can then charge an F-smash or U-smash, hitting him back off or killing him at high %s.

A new thing that D3s should be doing (or at least seibrik did it to me, it was pretty effective) was FH Dairing. It is hard to approach or hit him with it, so you have to be extremely cautious. If you get hit by the dair, SDI up and nair him for it. It will be about even in the % exchange, which normally means you are losing. Dair can be annoying, so get a lead and CAMP THAT DEDEDE!

Go to my matchup thread for basically anything else...

gamesuxcard · Dec 17, 2009

A good D3 is going to sdi everything you do. Fairs, bairs, dsmashes, etc. This means you're going to get grabbed oos. Don't let him tech chase you, please, back throw is way too much damage. He's going to be expecting your early chain grabs so just camp with tjolts and uair around when he gets close. He's really fat, so make thunder walls when he's recovering and throw in aerials after it goes away, after the thunderwalls go away ddds have a habit of rushing/bair/fair to ledge. Space space space. It's in our favor, but a good ddd can take this matchup if you're too agressive, pikachu is light and he is not. Just play safe.

Also his bair is stupid. D3s will try to predict your qacs with a punishing bair, so qac in place to a fh'd tjolt :3, it's funsies.

Jupz · Dec 31, 2009

I don't think the matchup is that bad for D3. Bair beats all Pika's aerials horizontally and D3 racks up huge amounts of damage with grabs. Pikachu's chaingrab really hurts though if he can get it. D3 kills alot earlier and survives longer. Offstage, they can both recover without being gimped but D3 takes a lot more damage. Fullhop Dairs work great for D3.

[FBC] ESAM · Jan 1, 2010

Me and seibrik played 2 sets of 3/5 somewhat recently. Here they are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_2i_XkAtpY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rKEvpFsmbw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4pFghZefck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPEGYrkt0zk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skWv7vnKvRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncmrj7sd6xw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzmlG0g_Crs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5olJPjIVUE

PUNK9 · Jan 1, 2010

Jupz said:
I don't think the matchup is that bad for D3. Bair beats all Pika's aerials horizontally and D3 racks up huge amounts of damage with grabs. Pikachu's chaingrab really hurts though if he can get it. D3 kills alot earlier and survives longer. Offstage, they can both recover without being gimped but D3 takes a lot more damage. Fullhop Dairs work great for D3.

D3 can't CG pikachu.

When d3 is recovering, Piakchu can do SOOOO much to him, thunder, n-air, f-air, ANYTHING,

yes that's correct, the CG will get D3 to a high percent fast

IMO, 55:45 Pikachu, 50:50 at worst

T3h Albino · Jan 1, 2010

Just because d3 cannot cg pikachu, doesn't mean grabs wont rack up damage fast.
D3's bthrow does 16 fresh, and pikachu's tech roll is very short, making him extremely easy to tech chase. so Dthrow to regrab Bthrow Is something I *and other* d3's do often.

PUNK9 · Jan 1, 2010

T3h Albino said:
Just because d3 cannot cg pikachu, doesn't mean grabs wont rack up damage fast.
D3's bthrow does 16 fresh, and pikachu's tech roll is very short, making him extremely easy to tech chase. so Dthrow to regrab Bthrow Is something I *and other* d3's do often.

When then don't get grabbed ;D
but yeah I know what you're talking about.

KayLo! · Jan 2, 2010

T3h Albino said:
Just because d3 cannot cg pikachu, doesn't mean grabs wont rack up damage fast.
D3's bthrow does 16 fresh, and pikachu's tech roll is very short, making him extremely easy to tech chase. so Dthrow to regrab Bthrow Is something I *and other* d3's do often.

Thiiiiiiiiiis.

This is a large part of the reason why I think the MU is no better than 60:40 for us. If DDD manages to grab you, he can follow up on Pika fairly easily and rack up a good bit of damage in the process.

Pika has a CG and combos on DDD, but we do considerably less damage per move, and DDD survives for much longer if he doesn't get thunder KO'd. Even thunder isn't super reliable unless he's at the very top of the screen, which usually requires a utilt/usmash setup or bad recovery attempt on his part.

I forgot to ask the DDDs to come. ;; I think. I can't remember, but I'll ask them again. x.x

I'd like to hear their POV considering the difference in our ratios...... we say 59:41, they say 65:35.

o-Serin-o · Jan 2, 2010

The D3 boards were obviously drunk when they decided it was god**** 65:35 Pikachu.

60:40 Pikachu

T3h Albino · Jan 2, 2010

It's 6:4 not 65:35, either someones a super biased ******* or the ratio is really old.

Pikabunz · Jan 2, 2010

A little tip if you don't want to be tech chased after a dthrow. DI up and towards D3 and keep hitting jump. If you do it right, Pika should be able to jump out before he hits the ground. So no lame tech chase DA from D3.

Just from playing Alby and Serin, this MU feels close to even to me. I say 55:45 Pika. D3's grab still ***** even if he can't cg.

KayLo! · Jan 2, 2010

Dthrow > dash attack usually isn't the problem..... it's getting read, regrabbed, and bthrown. So much damage. ><

If you jump out, can he still regrab you out of your jump?

The most common tech chases I get caught in are:

Dthrow > regrab > bthrow
Dthrow > regrab > dthrow > another attempted read (usually don't get caught in more than two dthrows, tho, and most DDDs will just bthrow the second time instead of trying to tech chase again)
Dthrow > ftilt
Dthrow > dtilt
Dthrow > utilt/dsmash if you roll back into him

I mean, TUSM does try dthrow > dash attack sometimes, and it does work on a really good read..... but you half-expect it when you're at higher percentages or near the edge. If you do a normal getup or roll away (provided you're not right on the ledge), you have more than enough time to shield.

Pikabunz · Jan 2, 2010

I never said it was only good for avoiding DA tech chase. >> It prevents all tech chases since you never hit the ground.

KayLo! · Jan 2, 2010

Which is why I asked if he can regrab you out of your jump. It's nice to know, but if he can just regrab > bthrow, that makes it considerably less appealing than it would otherwise be.

The rest was contributing to the thread and @your comment that dash attack tech chasing is "lame." It's not really lame if you can easily avoid it. x.o

Pikabunz · Jan 2, 2010

He can regrab you out of your jump. So yeah it's useless, don't use it. I'm stupid.

T3h Albino · Jan 2, 2010

Pikachu can DI Up + towards D3, and jump over his grab I'm pretty sure.

Also if Pikachu techs in place you can hit him with dthrow > fsmash. <--cool

KayLo! · Jan 2, 2010

K Prime said:
He can regrab you out of your jump. So yeah it's useless, don't use it. I'm stupid.

It's not useless, it's just not as amazing as it would be if you could avoid regrabs too.

Are you sure you can avoid all tech chases with it? Like fsmash, usmash, and other moves that go over his head? I imagine we'd end up being pretty close to his hammer range with a jump.....

T3h Albino said:
Pikachu can DI Up + towards D3, and jump over his grab I'm pretty sure.

Are you sure? Definitely worth looking into. If we can avoid regrabs with a jump, that'd be awesome.

T3h Albino said:
Also if Pikachu techs in place you can hit him with dthrow > fsmash. <--cool

Not cool.

Forgot about that one, though. Probably because I rarely choose to tech in place vs. DDD. For some reason, it just seems more worth it to roll or do a normal getup. x.x

Pikabunz · Jan 2, 2010

D3 can still regrab Pika if he tries to jump out. It does avoid all tech chases cause you don't hit the ground so you never roll. Tech chase = following/reading someones roll and punishing them.

And dthrow > fsmash isn't guaranteed on a Pika teching in place.

KayLo! · Jan 2, 2010

Would-be tech chase, jump chase, followup, same diff. You know what I meant. ;;

Anyways. I'll just experiment with it myself and see how it works.

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