Lucario+ (Aura Extraordinaire)

Rayku · Oct 23, 2009

Input numbers, because I suck at quoting:

1) It might seem like it, but take a look at your percent next time you get combo'ed by a Lucario at 0%. You won't see your percent go above 30 most of the time. And if that combo happens again at 60 or so, and you're still at 0, don't expect to be dying from said combo for a good long while, unless your character has a terribad recovery and you get taken offstage because of said combo, which shouldn't be a problem if you know how to DI up (DI'ing Lucario's F-air up makes you go straight up, from what I saw. That seems to be an effective way of avoiding getting gimped). Lucario has -serious- killing problems while he is at 0%, and that has always been his problem because of Aura.

2) I know, so go spam the Bowser+ thread along with the Lucario+ thread and I won't be offended lol

3) I'm game for either of the upB suggestions we have. I think they will balance out, regardless. Although I much prefer his recovery now, that's just a personal preference.

4) Vulnerable? I don't believe that in a second. Considering glide attack wasn't taken away in any form, and it still has very high priority and you can combo off that glide attack if they try to take advantage of your "vulnerability." Wario still has a pretty awesome recovery as well

You're making Lucario sound like he's broken beyond reason, but I feel other characters have -stupid- qualities about them that need to be fixed before Lucario needs his super nerfs.

Namely Ness's spike and the lack of meteor canceling in this ugly game.

CountKaiser · Oct 23, 2009

There is meteor canceling, it just is activated later than in melee.

Rayku · Oct 23, 2009

CountKaiser said:
There is meteor canceling, it just is activated later than in melee.

Yeah that's what everyone said all the people who make the game said, and then we tested it.

No, there is not. And if there is, Ness's D-air at 0 kills Captain Falcon without any chance of recovery. I think what you're thinking is that the hitstun just doesn't exist. D'you know what a meteor cancel is?

It's when you get hit by a meteor spike, and you can cancel the hitstun with an upB or a jump at any time from when you are not getting your faced smashed in to when you die.

KOkingpin · Oct 23, 2009

CountKaiser said:
There is meteor canceling, it just is activated later than in melee.

there is no such thing as Meteor canceling in Brawl+ nor was there meteor canceling in vBrawl. That is another big thing that needs to be implemented.

If its activated later than in Melee then it must be too late. Because I can easily kill at 0% with Ness' dair or Charizard's dair.

@Rayku - dont think im just trying to get Lucario nerfed. about MK though If he glides he is rather easy to hit out of it. there were few of times where I just Fair > Dair with charizard to MK because he went into Glide. Hes not as invincible as you think.

CountKaiser · Oct 23, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk2nfp0OOxI

At around 3:10, Ness dair's bowser, and bowser jumps out of it.

Meteor canceling does exist in this game.

I've also seen a vid where a CF jumped out of mario's fair.

In fact, I have a vid of me meteor canceling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vx9tgN6oDY

1:55, you can clearly see that I UpB after Wolf's dair. If I hadn't jumped beforehand, I would have made it back to the stage.

iLink · Oct 23, 2009

The fact that lucario can autosnap is silly actually, I wouldn't mind lossing that. I however am strongely against removing the free fall from his up-b. Without this he is just vBrawl Lucario with more hitstun. I would more then gladely give up the autosnap to keep the freefall.

I'm getting the feeling that some people are jumping the trigger because of the galaxy tourney e_e I have yet to see ANYONE place him even in the top 10 of their list of best characters.

KOkingpin · Oct 23, 2009

CountKaiser said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk2nfp0OOxI

At around 3:10, Ness dair's bowser, and bowser jumps out of it.

Meteor canceling does exist in this game.

I've also seen a vid where a CF jumped out of mario's fair.

In fact, I have a vid of me meteor canceling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vx9tgN6oDY

1:55, you can clearly see that I UpB after Wolf's dair. If I hadn't jumped beforehand, I would have made it back to the stage.

you did notice that Bowser died right? He was at a Fairly low percentage and died to a dair spike. Hit stun was broke from him jumping.

again on that spike from which you Up-B'd you died. That is not meteor canceling. That Is hitstun being broke normally.

A real meteor cancel would be breaking Hitstun abnormally early from a "Meteor Spike" Maybe because of the engine that Brawl was made on that Real meteor canceling is impossible to make and apply to this game.

@X_iLink_X - We are not jumping to conclusions. Its been the same for the past few tournies. Its not just Lucario we are picking on either. certain things have been the same for quite a few characters.

CountKaiser · Oct 23, 2009

Okay, since you won't believe me, believe this.

Kupo made a vid long ago showing MC and how odd it is. You can clearly see where hitstun normally ends, and where snake MC'd out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YowgaaOPSJo

goodoldganon · Oct 23, 2009

In seriousness, in response to x Link x's post that seems to be what always happens when a relatively low key/low player base character wins. We'll watch out for Lucario and I'm sure down the road we'll look at Up-b ASL but for the time being he will remain the same, just like everyone else.

Rayku · Oct 23, 2009

CountKaiser said:
Okay, since you won't believe me, believe this.

Kupo made a vid long ago showing MC and how odd it is. You can clearly see where hitstun normally ends, and where snake MC'd out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YowgaaOPSJo

Wow. Even after defining the term, and you PROVING YOURSELF WRONG, you still think meteor canceling is in Brawl+

Wow.

CountKaiser · Oct 24, 2009

What is it that I don't get?

No, seriously, I must be missing something here.

MC is in the game, it just isn't the same as in melee because it takes longer for you to MC, but you can still do it.

shanus · Oct 24, 2009

Extreme speed no freefall is a dynamic which is largely meant to encourage a mode of approaching for a character who is largely dominated by a game of aura sphere camping. I already posted in this thread i knoe how to remove ASL from lucario, and we'll wait and see what happens.

CloneHat · Oct 24, 2009

Lord Rayku said:
It's when you get hit by a meteor spike, and you can cancel the hitstun with an upB or a jump at any time from when you are not getting your faced smashed in to when you die.

If you're saying there's no meteor cancel in Brawl, I can assume your definition refers to Melee, and in that case you're wrong, sir. Go play Melee and try randomly mashing up B after a meteor. It actually takes timing; in fact, mashing ONLY works in Brawl.

JCaesar · Oct 24, 2009

There is meteor-canceling in Brawl. There's a short window where you can't do anything, so you can't cancel as early as you can in Melee.

You can jump out before hitstun is over though. If you mash up-B, you will escape as soon as it's possible to meteor-cancel. If you mash jump, there is a fail window, and you will be stuck until hitstun ends. If you time the jump correctly, you can meteor-cancel as early as you can with up-B. The fact that there is a fail window for the jump button proves that there is meteor-canceling in Brawl. It just doesn't work as well as Melee's.

Why do you think ROB is the hardest character to spike? Partially because he has the best vertical recovery in the game, but mostly because he can mash up-B without penalty to meteor-cancel at the first possible moment.

Magus420 · Oct 24, 2009

Melee has an 8 frame delay before you can MC, and I believe the delay is 25 in Brawl (not sure if it somehow got affected in B+ though). In other words, you need to eat almost half a second of the knockback before you're allowed to MC, so if it's strong enough/your vertical recovery sucks enough a MC isn't going to save you before you go too low. Ness' d-air may in fact start doing this very early to some characters with the huge amount of BKB it has.

Rayku · Oct 24, 2009

Magus420 said:
Melee has an 8 frame delay before you can MC, and I believe the delay is 25 in Brawl (not sure if it somehow got affected in B+ though). In other words, you need to eat almost half a second of the knockback before you're allowed to MC, so if it's strong enough/your vertical recovery sucks enough a MC isn't going to save you before you go too low. Ness' d-air may in fact start doing this very early to some characters with the huge amount of BKB it has.

Finally someone educated posts.

I honestly don't think it's the same in Brawl+. The hitstun is un-cancelable.

@CK: I know how to meteor cancel. I know you can't just mash upB. I try not to make uneducated posts, and if I know I am saying something I am not 100% sure of, I'll say it.

CountKaiser · Oct 25, 2009

So you're saying there is no MC in brawl+ because hitstun is now completely uncancelable?

I'm quite certain that isn't the case, both from what I've seen and personal experience.

THe hitstun code affects hitstun cancelling via attacking or ADing, not by using upB or jumping, which is what is used in MC.

Besides, I've seen my friend's wolf MC Ness's dair from about 20%.

Rayku · Oct 25, 2009

CountKaiser said:
So you're saying there is no MC in brawl+ because hitstun is now completely uncancelable?

I'm quite certain that isn't the case, both from what I've seen and personal experience.

THe hitstun code affects hitstun cancelling via attacking or ADing, not by using upB or jumping, which is what is used in MC.

Besides, I've seen my friend's wolf MC Ness's dair from about 20%.

Yes, I'm saying that MC in Brawl+ does not exist because the hitstun is not cancelable.

From all the videos you showed me/us, even though the person "meteor canceled" the attacks, they still ended up dying.

This is the Lucario+ thread. I honestly think this Meteor Canceling business needs to go in the Brawl+ discussion, not spamming the Lucario+ thread

phi1ny3 · Dec 12, 2009

I honestly think that getting rid of the ledgesnap is a better idea if we had to get rid of one as opposed to the no freefall.

Alphatron · Dec 12, 2009

Same. I preferred no freefall so long as he didn't auto snap.

KarateF22 · Dec 17, 2009

Heres my input: Lucario's upb doesn't need its autosnap or no freefall removed at this time. Yes, it is a good recovery, but i do not consider it overpowered at this time... this opinion may change depending on tourney results among other things, but this is what i currently believe.

If, in the future, autosnap is removed.... i do think it should be compensated with something that add's to Lucarios game in another manner... One idea that comes to mind is making his up+b completely cancelable (perhaps maybe a few frames of no-interruption time at the beginning, but after that can be canceled at any time) by use of either his second jump (if not used), another special (other than his up+b, obviously), or an attack.

This interruptable up+b could be used, for example, to do a zero altitude nearly instant nair by quickly inputting up+b then nair, as i believe he is airborne from frame 1 of that move even if he was grounded from the start.

However, i really dont think these changes would be necessary at this time.

Oh and by the way hi o/

JCaesar · Dec 17, 2009

Autosnap is gone for good. It doesn't need compensation. It's still a really good recovery move, in addition to its other uses.

From my experience so far, Lucario feels at least top 10, if not top 5, in the newest version.

shanus · Dec 17, 2009

I'm actually going to toy with a build where lucario goes into special fall at the end, no auto snap, but can interrupt any time with an aerial. Should be fun

Mr.Pickle · Dec 17, 2009

The only thing I find wrong with his recovery is that he can't ride up the side of the stage, he just sorta bounces off it lol. It seems kinda of silly that he can't while a majority of the cast can, but don't take this as complaining, I'm just voicing my opinion.

iLink · Dec 19, 2009

Mr.Pickle said:
The only thing I find wrong with his recovery is that he can't ride up the side of the stage, he just sorta bounces off it lol. It seems kinda of silly that he can't while a majority of the cast can, but don't take this as complaining, I'm just voicing my opinion.

I've been wondering about this. Is there any plan to not make him crash like he does now and just ride against the wall? It's just kind of bothering how if you touch the edge in the slightest that he just crashes and falls.

KarateF22 · Dec 20, 2009

X iLink X said:
I've been wondering about this. Is there any plan to not make him crash like he does now and just ride against the wall? It's just kind of bothering how if you touch the edge in the slightest that he just crashes and falls.

Does he do this even against vertical walls? if so that kinda... seems like a bug; he should be wall clinging and if he doesnt that should be fixxed. doing against ceilings is normal... though it would be nice if he didnt crash against them.

iLink · Dec 21, 2009

No you can still cling to vertical walls just fine. I'm proposing a a change so he doesn't just crash into everything else and just ride against them instead. If you try to grab a ledge horizontally, if you don't grab it with the very end of Extremespeed, then he will crash and fall instead of just riding against it until it ends such as Falco's/Mk's/CF's/etc.'s side-b

iLink · Dec 25, 2009

Sorry for the double post but I thought I would share this

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259121&page=2

I'm not quite sure what any of this means, but is it possible to apply this information so Lucario doesn't crash with the stage? (Could also be applied to Diddy too now that I think about it, I'm not sure if this helps with Ness/Lucas)

KarateF22 · Jan 2, 2010

Heres a potential solution to the up+b problem Lucario has: if he collides with a wall during up+b that is more vertical than horizontal, but that he cannot wall cling to, perhaps he can tech off of the wall with potential to tech jump if the player inputs commands quick enough.... alternatively you could just have him automatically wall jump off... which would require less technical skill but loses invincibility frames.

Also, on an unrelated note, I'll be posting sometime tomorrow about some cool things you can do with up+b (highly doubt im the first to figure it out, but i would be the first to post about it here).

Fritz~9 · Jan 13, 2010

In regards to the no ledge sweet-spot (or actually a "die if you come anywhere near the ledge") on lucarios recovery:

Now when you recover you always have to go for landing on the stage, which has cost me a few gimps ( I go off stage, hit opponent, and WOULD zip back to ledge to ledgehog them for stock but cant so they recover). This also makes edge-guarding lucario for characters like marth stupidly simple. Marth jumps and nairs and it covers almost any area you could recover to onstage.

Was this change to his recovery intended or a glitch of some sort, because it was not this way in any previous version (how i miss my old version

)

Also, a few other characters need (better?) ledge sweet spots b/c they suffer from the "go for ledge and you lose your stock" issue. Namely: diddy, ness, lucas

ness and lucas can sweet spot but if off for the slightest amount they bounce off and fall to their doom.

All characters save these few can very easily go for the ledge and snap onto it without fear of death. (after removal of autosweetspot) characters without this option are at serious disadvantage when being edgegaurded.

Revven · Jan 13, 2010

You're repeating the same **** everyone has heard before and I'm honestly tired of repeating the reason why those three are like they are so I'm not even going to explain Diddy, Ness, or Lucas to you but I WILL explain Lucario for the LAST time.

Lucario has no fall special after Up B so when he had the dumb autosnap, his recovery wasn't able to be edgeguarded that easily if the opponent knew how to recover with Lucario. It basically made him borderline "broken". The only way to remedy it was to remove his autosnap. Instead of stupidly recovering by jumping first and THEN Up Bing how about you try Up Bing first and THEN jumping? Makes sense? Yeah I thought so.

Fritz~9 · Jan 13, 2010

my bad for not reading the previous 15 pages...

i was referred to this forum from another. Maybe the snap isnt necessary but why must these characters fall to their death when they up b into the ledge? shouldnt they be able to slide up it like everyone else?

Revven · Jan 19, 2010

OK people, time to understand what everyone is referring to about Lucario's recovery not needing to be snappable: http://www.youtube.com/user/JCaesar007

Watch a few of those matches of Lee Martin's Lucario. THAT is how you recover with Lucario in B+. Man up Lucario mains and stop whining about having the simple mind of going to the edge like in vBrawl. Your options were opened up and have been for months, you've just not realized this at all and it really, really disappoints me that it took this long to have videos that show how to properly recover as Lucario.

NOW you all know why he doesn't need autosweetspot and why it was finally taken away from him.

F1ZZ · Feb 21, 2010

Bump. This thread needs to get started again. <_<

5ive · Feb 21, 2010

F1ZZ said:
Bump. This thread needs to get started again. <_<

You suck hard **** though.

iLink · Feb 21, 2010

Falco400 said:
OK people, time to understand what everyone is referring to about Lucario's recovery not needing to be snappable: http://www.youtube.com/user/JCaesar007

Watch a few of those matches of Lee Martin's Lucario. THAT is how you recover with Lucario in B+. Man up Lucario mains and stop whining about having the simple mind of going to the edge like in vBrawl. Your options were opened up and have been for months, you've just not realized this at all and it really, really disappoints me that it took this long to have videos that show how to properly recover as Lucario.

NOW you all know why he doesn't need autosweetspot and why it was finally taken away from him.

I didn't even notice this post lol. I never argued to keep the autosnap, I was just asking if it was possible for him to to not tumble to death if he touched the wall ala diddy's recovery.

It's not really so much of an issue now but sometimes it looks like you will recover past the ledge and he just barely nicks it and well... just falls.

Rayku · Feb 22, 2010

I played in my first tournament since Lucario's auto-snap got stolen from him.

Lucario's fine. If you want to be able to not die off the ledge riding, just go to Yoshi's Island

ZeonStar · Feb 23, 2010

Rayku said:
I played in my first tournament since Lucario's auto-snap got stolen from him.

Lucario's fine. If you want to be able to not die off the ledge riding, just go to Yoshi's Island

Yep, Lucario *****.

matt4300 · Feb 28, 2010

Ok, so I just went to a brawl+ tourney and lost 2 times to 2 lucarios.... I tried 4 chars (all of my mains) against them, and could do nothing. Link got gimped and out camped.... Bowser just got ****ed in everyway possible.. Samus put up a fight if I camped REALLY hard but ultimately could do nothing... and Ness just plain got destoryed...

This tourney was won by lucario aswell... Had people cracking lucario jokes, and treating him like the new metaknight. Ive fought some characters that seemed really good, but nothing to the extent of lucario.

Do I seriously have to play one of the 2 or 3 potential counters to lucario... There is just no way past his campyness and aura range even for link..

goodoldganon · Feb 28, 2010

I have the same problems fighting Lucario. It's such a chore to fight the ****er. He camps all day and when he finally gets a decent hit in his up-b allows him to keep a stupid amount of pressure on you STILL. I have no idea who counterpicks the little **** but I really believe he is easily the best character in the game. His only weakness is KO potential with low aura power and that's not a huge deal when he racks up damage so fast. Lets not even talk about aura stock. "Oh look I'm slightly behind but now I have stupid range, damage, and decent KO potential."

I hate him so much

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