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The Competitive Brawl Stage Hacking Hub: Dat Valentine's Day Status

MK26

Smash Master
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Jun 29, 2008
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http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
FroPo, i can fix that. I can make the main platforms passthrough. (why havent i done this yet? EDIT: oh, right, it wouldnt help the hitlag issue)

Also, in regards to Summit+, would the platform that can fall still fall if the stage was frozen?

EDIT: mansion download fixed
stupid slanted quotes messin up mah mediafiyah
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
@Shadic: Way to ignore the rest of my post ^_^

OK, comments on new stages....

mansion+: again, love love loveee it

PTAD+: I would prefer it with weaker cars instead of no cars (it feels so...barren), but otherwise it is perfect.

And now...BigBlue+. There are several things I like about it, and several things I don't like about it.

Cons:

The spawn platform sometimes drops BELOW the falcon flyer....kinda awkward

IMO the stage is heavily geared towards good gimpers vs. bad recoveries (if Sheik knocks Diddy, Donkey, or Bowser off with a fair, they're screwed....

There's one point where the track nearly disappears....and if you get knocked off, you're screwed...but this has been in since day 1 of melee, so I shouldn't complain XD


So yeah some bugs.....but otherwise I really like BB+.
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
5,272
Location
Nowhere Land
FroPo, i can fix that. I can make the main platforms passthrough. (why havent i done this yet?)

Also, in regards to Summit+, would the platform that can fall still fall if the stage was frozen?
for summit+, when frozen, that platform does not fall.

and what do you mean you can "fix that"? PS1?


And now...BigBlue+. There are several things I like about it, and several things I don't like about it.

Cons:

The spawn platform sometimes drops BELOW the falcon flyer....kinda awkward

IMO the stage is heavily geared towards good gimpers vs. bad recoveries (if Sheik knocks Diddy, Donkey, or Bowser off with a fair, they're screwed....

There's one point where the track nearly disappears....and if you get knocked off, you're screwed...but this has been in since day 1 of melee, so I shouldn't complain XD


So yeah some bugs.....but otherwise I really like BB+.
i can look at moving the re-spawn points higher up to try and fix that.

as for the stage favoring gimpers, thats what CPs are for.

the point where the track disapears is when it goes over a gap (there are 2, but they get put in randomly. i once had 4 pit stops in a row O_o).

aside from the spawn bug and the graphical problem, what did you see that could be fixed?
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
5,272
Location
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no, i can't put a spawn on that platform. the code only takes effect after the 1 2 3 Go!

I tried putting a spawn there. it would fall before the match started and never go back up.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
i can look at moving the re-spawn points higher up to try and fix that.

as for the stage favoring gimpers, thats what CPs are for.

the point where the track disapears is when it goes over a gap (there are 2, but they get put in randomly. i once had 4 pit stops in a row O_o).

aside from the spawn bug and the graphical problem, what did you see that could be fixed?

Hm...the middle part of the flyer, the part with the cool design thingy on it...it just looks like the graphics could be touched up a bit.

Also, I have one suggestion: I think it would be cool if one or two cars were traveling along the track at all times....just kinda like a fallback....and to add a little life to the stage.
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
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Messages
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gimme the stage with teh edited spawn and imma see if i can't give that a ghetto fix
i'll get that it to you with PS1.

also, whats the point of having the platforms on skyworld when you can both move through them and grab the ledges of the clouds. it seems redundant and unnecessary.


Hm...the middle part of the flyer, the part with the cool design thingy on it...it just looks like the graphics could be touched up a bit.

Also, I have one suggestion: I think it would be cool if one or two cars were traveling along the track at all times....just kinda like a fallback....and to add a little life to the stage.
the design stuff on the flyer comes from me stretching the platform (which as it turns out doesn't do as much as i thought it would and will be changed back). as for the cars, i talked to PW about the cars, but its all or none. funny story: i was editing the code and managed to make the cars invisible but keep their collision.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
No, keep the flyer the way it is. I like it D:

and once the outside edges of the clouds are grabbable on Skyworld+, it'll be perfect.
 

FrozenHobo

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Messages
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well, i've updated my original post with a fixed BB+ pac that doesn't have the graphical problem (sorry symph, i also made it slightly smaller so you'll need the fixed pac if you want to play online).
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
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Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
hmm...now that I Think about it, the size increase actually didn't do anything O_o or at least, none that I Can see..

also, I just find it just a little unfair that I can bair someone off the stage, while they're still in recovering zone, but then the ship zooms up ward (the track disappears) and they have no chance of recovering...or vica versa.

You'd also want to fix the first post about it too
 

FrozenHobo

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Mar 26, 2007
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the stage randomly generates the next part as it goes a long. you have a flat part, pit stop, hill (rising), hill (falling), hill (small), 2 jumps, and a loop. you won't recover on hill (falling), 2 jumps, and very rarely on the loop and hill (small). its a gimper's paradise.

link in the first post has been updated already.

i just realized i forgot to move up the respawn points. new pac up.
 

Perfect Chaos

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no, i can't put a spawn on that platform. the code only takes effect after the 1 2 3 Go!

I tried putting a spawn there. it would fall before the match started and never go back up.
Isn't there two variations to the Level Freezer code? One where the changes happen right on "GO!" and one where it happens at the very start. The former is currently officially used in B+. But I guess it can affect certain things differently...
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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I wasn't trying to be condescending so much as direct. I'm trying to say that if we want to make really good progress on stage hacking, those are the things that need focus. What we can currently do is a great stepping stone, wonderful in combination with a few things we don't have and generally very promising, but not really a good toolset by itself. Subtle tone doesn't really work well on the internet either way I guess. I'm making this post mostly to clear things up on that regard; it's no good having misunderstandings of people's intent.

What is wrong with a "cave of life" anyway? I don't see anything fundamentally unfair about it; you just have to set up your kills via smart positioning and tactical interaction with the stage sometimes... just like Luigi's Mansion really. Skyworld in standard Brawl is kinda like a semi-broken aerial character version of Luigi's Mansion anyway. Wouldn't that be a good thing to preserve except working on getting rid of that semi-broken part? I think most approaches that go a direction other than this will just be losing most of what makes Skyworld a unique stage.

Spear Pillar, a few things. For one, do we really have that many different 2 platform stages? I'm not thinking about subspace stages at all, and the only other two platform stages are the two Pokemon Stadium levels, both of which transform into assorted configurations. The platforms on Spear Pillar move, and it has the zany fun Pokemon interactions. Stuff like Dialga distorting time is definitely something that keeps the stage unique (and it does have a real gameplay effect due to the influence of human reaction time and such on matches, really introduces some new and interesting tactics). I view the lower area as the problem since as it stands it just kinda adds a loop to the stage. The suggestion of removing 2/3 of the sections of the top instantly creates a rather obnoxious camping strategy that is easy to see; a lot of slow characters would have a really bad time approaching someone on the far floating platform. If that is gone too, it's not necessarily bad, but in general characters good at controlling space versus characters with weak vertical games (think of matchups like G&W vs Falco) would be really silly as the good space control character held the top part of the stage. It would also make the stage really huge on a vertical level in a way I'm not sure can be easily avoided. You either accept from the bottom vertical KO moves are Japes-level nerfed (not horrible since Japes is fine after all, but somewhat extreme) or accept the upper area having Mushroomy Kingdom level vertical kill shenanigans (really not fine). I struggle to see what the lower area itself adds to the stage; all the non-degenerate gameplay that already happens there focuses on the top so it would be a logical approach to mod it to focus on the top. I'm not saying you can't make a unique and interesting stage via other means, but I think the approach I'm looking at is best.

Norfair is so misunderstood. Running away on the ledges really just doesn't work well; the ledges are numerous but indefensible. Think of it this way. It's like normal ledgestalling except the other guy can approach you from any direction easily and has an easier time recovering if he messes up. That's the story with standard Brawl (and Balanced Brawl) at least; maybe Brawl+ changes something that somehow makes Norfair terrible. I really don't know so I can't consider it. As per the hazards, well, there are three to consider. The background lava wave is a hazard you'd just have to be braindead to get hit by unless you choose to take a big risk, and if you do, you deserve what's coming. It's a really good hazard like that, and I think the original developers did a perfect job on it. The side-walls of lava are really easy to avoid, and you do get a telegraphed warning for them (the camera zooms out). There's a lot of play in trying to bat people into them (much like the pirahna plant on PictoChat), but nothing is really unfair about it. The fire pillars are the only questionable element, and they really aren't that bad. They give good enough advanced warning; problems only arise when they come in particularly nasty patterns or at really bad times; they do hit a little too hard for the way they work. It's nothing even close to worth banning the stage over, but I can see why someone would want to tone them down a bit (not much though... they should still be scary). In general, Norfair forces the player to really think about his positioning and spatial control, and the hazards enhance that by dominating certain spaces for certain durations of time. It's a thinking man's stage, and it's also a stage that really creates a wide array of different circumstances in which a lot of characters can succeed (the really ground based characters like Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers don't do so great here, but that's why it's cp material and not starter material). I can't even begin to hide that I love the stage to death, and it baffles me that anyone would want to change it. In general though, I can only describe myself as disheartened at the way such a good stage as Norfair is so widely misunderstood; I wish people had more appreciation for the tactical depth some of these stages provide.

I really am excited over stage hacking; I just want to stress that there's more to be had than what we have now, and the real gems lie that way. I have already taken perhaps radical steps by doing things like refusing to freeze WarioWare in Balanced Brawl because WarioWare just isn't WarioWare without the games; I think with stage hacking the most important thing is that every stage is unique, and respecting that is really in line with the game's original design. I mean, consider in standard Brawl that only three stages have zero gameplay interactive elements (Battlefield, Final Destination, Temple). Further consider that most of the rest have rather large interactions. Probably half of the stages in the game move or transform, and so many stages have damaging hazards. Many stages have totally novel mechanics as well; WarioWare as an example has the novel games within the game with small prizes that may be useful in winning the bigger game (sadly ruined by the prizes being too random and too good). On just three stages you have totally unique swimming mechanics, and each of them has a different implementation. You have temporary standing water, permanent slow moving water, and permanent rushing water. All three of those are tactically nearly completely independent! I can say that in standard Brawl and Balanced Brawl my approach to the game is really fundamentally pretty different on each individual stage, and it adds so much to the game. There are 666 character-character matchups, and each stage adds as much diversity as a character so if all 42 stages were good that would be 27972 matchups which would make such a version of Brawl possibly the most inherently complex fighting game ever. Then consider that you have things like WiFi Training Room (with Sandbag) and maybe a stage or two to be salvaged out of subspace that could be as interesting as the normal stages, and the numbers can go up even more!

I just post stuff like this because I don't want to see stage hacking go in bad directions is all. Fixing what's not broken and making the stages more homogeneous would just be tragic. If we had just a few more tools, the possibilities would be just wide open, and 35ish stages would easily be made fair with the remaining stages largely being creative challenges moreso than programming challenges (I don't really know what to do about a stage like 75m; it may be that the "soul" of this stage is just fundamentally broken). Perhaps it's not political to look to the future instead of working with the present, but the limits of the present just seem like such a shame when it feels like the future is only a few steps away.

I hope this longer and less direct post did a better job of conveying my intentions. I don't mean any ill will; I would actually love to be helpful if I could do something to push things further along. So, no hard feelings?
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Nowhere Land
i'm using the B+ stage freeze code currently. if there's another, give it to me so i can try it.

also, i may have edited DP so its bouncy platform is out farther. i still need to work on making it look nice, though, as some of the things i need to edit make the environment (nothing the players interact with, mind you) go wonky.

also, still having trouble with spawning on BB+, so i'm going to try a drastic measure and hope it works.
 

Perfect Chaos

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This was the one that way used by B+ a long while back:
Code:
4A000000 90000000
1416A904 XXXXXXXX
22623090 000000YY
1416A904 3F800000
E0000000 80008000
Where XXXXXXXX is the speed multiplier and YY is the stage.
This one makes the stage go at x1 speed from the very beginning until "GO!", where it'll then reverse/freeze/slow-down/speed-up to the assigned speed. The current one simply starts the stage out at the assigned speed, straight from the beginning (which is why it's odd how the platform falls when it's frozen from the very beginning).
I doubt this will fix the problem, but I guess it doesn't hurt if you're willing to try it.
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
5,272
Location
Nowhere Land
I wasn't trying to be condescending so much as direct. I'm trying to say that if we want to make really good progress on stage hacking, those are the things that need focus. What we can currently do is a great stepping stone, wonderful in combination with a few things we don't have and generally very promising, but not really a good toolset by itself. Subtle tone doesn't really work well on the internet either way I guess. I'm making this post mostly to clear things up on that regard; it's no good having misunderstandings of people's intent.

What is wrong with a "cave of life" anyway? I don't see anything fundamentally unfair about it; you just have to set up your kills via smart positioning and tactical interaction with the stage sometimes... just like Luigi's Mansion really. Skyworld in standard Brawl is kinda like a semi-broken aerial character version of Luigi's Mansion anyway. Wouldn't that be a good thing to preserve except working on getting rid of that semi-broken part? I think most approaches that go a direction other than this will just be losing most of what makes Skyworld a unique stage.

Spear Pillar, a few things. For one, do we really have that many different 2 platform stages? I'm not thinking about subspace stages at all, and the only other two platform stages are the two Pokemon Stadium levels, both of which transform into assorted configurations. The platforms on Spear Pillar move, and it has the zany fun Pokemon interactions. Stuff like Dialga distorting time is definitely something that keeps the stage unique (and it does have a real gameplay effect due to the influence of human reaction time and such on matches, really introduces some new and interesting tactics). I view the lower area as the problem since as it stands it just kinda adds a loop to the stage. The suggestion of removing 2/3 of the sections of the top instantly creates a rather obnoxious camping strategy that is easy to see; a lot of slow characters would have a really bad time approaching someone on the far floating platform. If that is gone too, it's not necessarily bad, but in general characters good at controlling space versus characters with weak vertical games (think of matchups like G&W vs Falco) would be really silly as the good space control character held the top part of the stage. It would also make the stage really huge on a vertical level in a way I'm not sure can be easily avoided. You either accept from the bottom vertical KO moves are Japes-level nerfed (not horrible since Japes is fine after all, but somewhat extreme) or accept the upper area having Mushroomy Kingdom level vertical kill shenanigans (really not fine). I struggle to see what the lower area itself adds to the stage; all the non-degenerate gameplay that already happens there focuses on the top so it would be a logical approach to mod it to focus on the top. I'm not saying you can't make a unique and interesting stage via other means, but I think the approach I'm looking at is best.

Norfair is so misunderstood. Running away on the ledges really just doesn't work well; the ledges are numerous but indefensible. Think of it this way. It's like normal ledgestalling except the other guy can approach you from any direction easily and has an easier time recovering if he messes up. That's the story with standard Brawl (and Balanced Brawl) at least; maybe Brawl+ changes something that somehow makes Norfair terrible. I really don't know so I can't consider it. As per the hazards, well, there are three to consider. The background lava wave is a hazard you'd just have to be braindead to get hit by unless you choose to take a big risk, and if you do, you deserve what's coming. It's a really good hazard like that, and I think the original developers did a perfect job on it. The side-walls of lava are really easy to avoid, and you do get a telegraphed warning for them (the camera zooms out). There's a lot of play in trying to bat people into them (much like the pirahna plant on PictoChat), but nothing is really unfair about it. The fire pillars are the only questionable element, and they really aren't that bad. They give good enough advanced warning; problems only arise when they come in particularly nasty patterns or at really bad times; they do hit a little too hard for the way they work. It's nothing even close to worth banning the stage over, but I can see why someone would want to tone them down a bit (not much though... they should still be scary). In general, Norfair forces the player to really think about his positioning and spatial control, and the hazards enhance that by dominating certain spaces for certain durations of time. It's a thinking man's stage, and it's also a stage that really creates a wide array of different circumstances in which a lot of characters can succeed (the really ground based characters like Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers don't do so great here, but that's why it's cp material and not starter material). I can't even begin to hide that I love the stage to death, and it baffles me that anyone would want to change it. In general though, I can only describe myself as disheartened at the way such a good stage as Norfair is so widely misunderstood; I wish people had more appreciation for the tactical depth some of these stages provide.

I really am excited over stage hacking; I just want to stress that there's more to be had than what we have now, and the real gems lie that way. I have already taken perhaps radical steps by doing things like refusing to freeze WarioWare in Balanced Brawl because WarioWare just isn't WarioWare without the games; I think with stage hacking the most important thing is that every stage is unique, and respecting that is really in line with the game's original design. I mean, consider in standard Brawl that only three stages have zero gameplay interactive elements (Battlefield, Final Destination, Temple). Further consider that most of the rest have rather large interactions. Probably half of the stages in the game move or transform, and so many stages have damaging hazards. Many stages have totally novel mechanics as well; WarioWare as an example has the novel games within the game with small prizes that may be useful in winning the bigger game (sadly ruined by the prizes being too random and too good). On just three stages you have totally unique swimming mechanics, and each of them has a different implementation. You have temporary standing water, permanent slow moving water, and permanent rushing water. All three of those are tactically nearly completely independent! I can say that in standard Brawl and Balanced Brawl my approach to the game is really fundamentally pretty different on each individual stage, and it adds so much to the game. There are 666 character-character matchups, and each stage adds as much diversity as a character so if all 42 stages were good that would be 27972 matchups which would make such a version of Brawl possibly the most inherently complex fighting game ever. Then consider that you have things like WiFi Training Room (with Sandbag) and maybe a stage or two to be salvaged out of subspace that could be as interesting as the normal stages, and the numbers can go up even more!

I just post stuff like this because I don't want to see stage hacking go in bad directions is all. Fixing what's not broken and making the stages more homogeneous would just be tragic. If we had just a few more tools, the possibilities would be just wide open, and 35ish stages would easily be made fair with the remaining stages largely being creative challenges moreso than programming challenges (I don't really know what to do about a stage like 75m; it may be that the "soul" of this stage is just fundamentally broken). Perhaps it's not political to look to the future instead of working with the present, but the limits of the present just seem like such a shame when it feels like the future is only a few steps away.

I hope this longer and less direct post did a better job of conveying my intentions. I don't mean any ill will; I would actually love to be helpful if I could do something to push things further along. So, no hard feelings?
we clearly have differing views on what should be brought out in gameplay, which is fine given that your hack is designed for casual play. i may have jumped off the handle earlier, but it was only because i felt insulted by the insinuation that we were not doing all we could. while keeping the cars on PTAD and other hitboxes is a good idea, please try to understand that editing those right now is outside of our realm of capabilities.

now, with regards to your ideas on editing stages, i wholeheartedly disagree with most of them, but i do understand where you are coming from on them. different stage hacks for different purposes (casual and competitive) is perfectly understandable, though some of your ideas may cause more frustration than fun. for example, skyworld's cave of life (or any CoL for that matter) results in a techfest where people live for much longer than they really need to. this generally leads to drawn out matches where people are spending more time playing pinball than fighting. skyworld's platforms offer an interesting change in that they can be destroyed, but more often than not, you wind up with the bottom breaking first which means people get stage spiked. a lot. keep in mind that even casual players hate certain things about stages too. like WW for instance.

WW is a fun stage when played by people who want pure FFA chaos with 99 stocks on. even in BBrawl i don't think this is your goal. keeping the "spirit of the stage" is important to you, clearly, but even that must be overshadowed by the spirit of the game. a lot of things can be fun, but there's a reason why people tend to avoid stages that would seem "fun": sometimes theory does not maintain itself in practice. WW's games, while fun, generally kill at low percents or make the fights very one sided. if you plan on keeping them in, though, i would recommend 2 things, 1) be sure that the community agrees with your idea to keep them in, and 2) make the main stage bigger. when people get those powerups, it creates a chaotic situation on those cramped little platforms.

Speaking of cramped little platforms, we now come to Norfair. Now, you must keep in mind, Brawl was designed as a casual game. this being said, in no way were its stages intended for a competitive environment (yes, this even applies to BF and FD, though less so the former). Norfair is a new addition in the tradition of previous metroid stages before it: lava and lots of it. This wouldn't be so bad if the lava wasn't so powerful. even in vBrawl the lava was an imposing threat, though the hitstun added in B+ makes it twice as deadly. This is disappointing, as from a competitive standpoint it could be a very good CP for tethers and against ground-based characters, as you stated (i know for a fact ICs get ***** there). with KB decreased it would be a perfect stage, but as it is now, we either have over powered hazards or, if they are removed, a platform layout that is beyond campy. now, from a casual viewpoint this may not be an issue, and more power to you for deciding to keep it labeled as legit, but until we can play the stage as it should have been (less KB) its still a fairly terrible stage in either game based partly on just how well its layout lends to camping.

on the topic of casual stages, SP is a complicated matter. BBrawl can get away with leaving it unfrozen because it promotes a casual game type. B+, however, does not. i personally feel that if you must fight the stage more than your opponent (looking at you palkia) its not a good stage. Now, the lasers, physics changes, and occasional crescent blades that frequent the stage aren't bad in of themselves, either. keep in mind, though, that you still have the CoL to deal with. yes, removing the bottom portion of the stage may remove that, but i personally feel that its not doing the stage justice. we can move the top pieces anywhere. we can move the platforms anywhere. WE CAN DECIDE WHICH POKEMON CAN APPEAR. why should we be limiting ourselves to such a simple setup when there are so many possibilities to be had? to me it feels like removing the bottom is taking the lazy way out, and i don't want to do that, not when i have a canvas as varied as SP to work with.


as per your other ideas, i find them to be noble, mainly Flatzone 2. you must keep in mind that with a stage like this the hazards are only part of the problem. the other part lies in the inevitable border camping. every form of FZ2 has ridiculously close borders and can be camped easily to great effect. if you do manage to find a way to reduce KB of stage hazards, i would recommend increasing the boundaries considerably.

i am happy you too are excited about stage hacking and i look forward to seeing what you can come up with, but we are working with two very different games here and what you may see as unnecessary for BBrawl may be a blessing for Brawl+. its necessary to look to the future, but its just as important to not get ahead of yourself as well. work with the tools you have now; the rest will come.


@ chaos:
thanks. that looks slightly different from what i'm using now. i'll see if it works better.

edit: nah, didn't work. i forgot the stage starts out angled if its not frozen. oh well, i guess i have to wait on Maestro then. which reminds me, i sent him the wrong file. the spawns on that one put it bellow the target platform.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
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Gentlemen.

I present.

Flat Zone 2+





The idea I personally have behind it, is to change the points of where the floor ends to the end of the picture and turn Flat Zone into a non-walk off. The stage would then be textured so that everything not in that picture is then invisible/non-existent.

So it would actually look like the stage has ledges and you can grab the points and fall below them and whatever.

I'd like to keep almost every hazard as all of them are extremely manageable EXCEPT the lion tamer. I have no way to fix that and make it legit other than removing it. The power of the gas station people and the projectiles of the chef would simply be reduced, and if not, out right removed.

It's just an idea. I think its possible now. Thoughts?
 

FrozenHobo

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oh wow...

Maestro could probably hex most of that. i can make the boundaries bigger.

we could see how it works. may be a possibility (anything to make more banned stages legal).
 

GHNeko

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Also. I'll have to ask Paprika Killer about the Distant Planet codes. he made them and I dont have permission from him to distribute them so I cant, unfortunately.

Its the code for perma water btw.
 

Shadic

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I have the feeling that Neko's idea would look slightly weird in game, mainly with the inconsistency of the bottom G&W Border being solid, and (I hope) the top one not. This may work/look slightly better, I think?

That way, all the fighting would be inside the actual G&W device, if you think about it. And the ground would just be the same as what you see on the G&W screen. I think it keeps the feel of fighting inside a Game&Watch, without uh, being a crappy level. (Aka, keeping Neko's basic idea)
 

hotdogturtle

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Messages
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well, keep in mind, i can move the top pieces anywhere. i can have them be lying on the bottom, floating off the side, anywhere. i'm not going to be happy with just another flat stage.
Well it wouldn't be just a flat stage, it would be a Battlefield-style stage with a main part and smaller platforms, except the gimmick is that the small platforms are way high up in the air and they move around by themselves. But more importantly, if you still think that that's not good enough, can you think of a way to incorporate the top half of the ground that doesn't involve creating a loop?
 

Perfect Chaos

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PerfectChaos7
I think Flat Zone 2 is almost a lost cause, so it would be better to save it for last (or close to last, after most of the other stages are fixed). But erasing everything would just look weird. I like the idea of making the edge of screen the border of the floor; but still keep the rest of the Game & Watch System looking the same (just make it so characters appears in front of it). So when someone gets hit off of the G&W's screen, it's as if they got hit out of the system, itself, and would have to try to get back "in" it, again. :laugh:
 

AMKalmar

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
887
Location
Hamilton ON CA
There's a texture in every stage except the ones from melee called TShadow1. It's a silhouette of mario. It's polygon is called TShadow1, it's vertex group is called NShadow1__MShadow1. Why is it there/what does it do?
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
Sorry I haven't been following this thread very closely, but stage hacking is an important issue for us and I commend the stage hackers for their efforts.

I skimmed through the thread and didn't see any, so I'd like to make a few suggestions for Frigate Orpheon. I personally love the stage and believe that its issues are easy to deal with when you have good stage knowledge, but a lot of people have recently been pushing to make it banned and that's just unacceptable to me. I'm willing to compromise though by fixing some of the more common issues if it's a possibility.

The 2 biggest issues that people seem to have with the stage are the lack of a grabbable edge on the right side of the first phase, and the fact that the stage can kill you or put you in a very bad position when it flips.

So, my suggestions (let me know if any of these are impossible):
-Make the right side of the moving platform on the first phase grabbable.
-Make the solid parts of both phases intangible only during flip (but leave the platforms so characters don't just fall). This way it will no longer be able to push you while flipping.
-Make the middle part of the second phase main platform (the part without solid blocks underneath) intangible. This will allow anyone who gets stuck underneath during flip to have a chance to recover.

Are any/all of these changes possible? Could one of the stage hackers whip this up for me? I'd be glad to help test. I and the B+ community would appreciate it greatly :)
 

ValTroX

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
934
Location
In the jungle, the mighty jungle
I think FZ2 will look weird with ledges and blast zone below the stage because you will be in a bubble when you go beyond the "game screen". Even if you manage to fix that, you probably still get an untextured zone beyond the edge of the screen(the screen i mean is the handheld screen, not your tv screen). I don't know if this will happen though, just a tough, still, the stage looks good enough :)
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
5,272
Location
Nowhere Land
Well it wouldn't be just a flat stage, it would be a Battlefield-style stage with a main part and smaller platforms, except the gimmick is that the small platforms are way high up in the air and they move around by themselves. But more importantly, if you still think that that's not good enough, can you think of a way to incorporate the top half of the ground that doesn't involve creating a loop?
i can look at moving the 2 outside rocks down so they are lying on the main platform and remove the middle one. then, i could move the 2 platforms out and down so they would be off the stage. thats just one idea. there are practically dozens i could do.

So, my suggestions (let me know if any of these are impossible):
-Make the right side of the moving platform on the first phase grabbable.
-Make the solid parts of both phases intangible only during flip (but leave the platforms so characters don't just fall). This way it will no longer be able to push you while flipping.
-Make the middle part of the second phase main platform (the part without solid blocks underneath) intangible. This will allow anyone who gets stuck underneath during flip to have a chance to recover.
~hex editing can do that
~not sure, but pretty sure that, again, hex editing could work
~again hex editing.

I think FZ2 will look weird with ledges and blast zone below the stage because you will be in a bubble when you go beyond the "game screen". Even if you manage to fix that, you probably still get an untextured zone beyond the edge of the screen(the screen i mean is the handheld screen, not your tv screen). I don't know if this will happen though, just a tough, still, the stage looks good enough :)
if the screen and the system are 2 different pieces then i can make the system large and move out the camera. i haven't looked at the pac yet, so this may not be actually possible, though.:ohwell:
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
we clearly have differing views on what should be brought out in gameplay, which is fine given that your hack is designed for casual play. i may have jumped off the handle earlier, but it was only because i felt insulted by the insinuation that we were not doing all we could. while keeping the cars on PTAD and other hitboxes is a good idea, please try to understand that editing those right now is outside of our realm of capabilities.
You... really don't understand. Balanced Brawl is definitely not "casual" in any particular sense. It doesn't strive to alienate casual players sure, but it's primarily designed for serious competitive play in its balance tweaks with a vigorous denial that there's anything wrong with the standard Brawl engine. There is nothing contradictory between deep, interactive stages and serious competition. Good, competitive players understand tactical play, and they know how to utilize the things stages do to their advantage and to mitigate them when used against them. Some things are problems for other reasons (too advantageous for certain players, legitimately random huge advantage giving), but the problems stages have are really overblown. I'm from the Midwest; I've seen a lot of stages seriously used in tournament in standard Brawl, including Norfair. When I speak about how fair Norfair is, I'm referring to my serious tournament experience on the stage. People seriously just don't get hit by the hazards unless their opponent forced it or they're bad players in the first place. People who try to run away on the ledges either lose badly or win but by smaller margins than they do on other stages like Smashville. In tournament with money on the line, stuff is not like people are saying it is, and the stage is good. I have experience playing seriously on every stage, and seriously if you include the tweaks that make walls and walk-offs fair that Balanced Brawl has almost every stage is either fair or close to fair (the exceptions like Mario Bros. usually have a loop as a part of their problems, frequently have a laundry list of problems). It does sound like Brawl+ has other issues that make more stages bad than would be bad otherwise; I can't really account for those. I feel like even if you end up with a strictly longer stage list with some of these changes proposed, you do more harm than good to the game's overall quality and just encourage a not very good for serious competition mindset whereby people aren't willing to fundamentally change their tactics on a per-stage basis.

I really don't want to carry this on further though. Either we've reached an understanding or not. I just had to respond to the seriously huge misunderstanding about Balanced Brawl being "casual" or the things I'm saying being related to anything but serious competitive players playing to win by using the best tactics which might involve subtle tricks and complex tactics and not just rushing at each other. I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for progress in any case.
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
5,272
Location
Nowhere Land
you say its meant to be competitive but you keep WW as is and expect people to play on it? k, have fun with your delusions. i'm sure you'll make some great illegal stages.
 

E-Jolteon

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
502
Location
The other side
you say its meant to be competitive but you keep WW as is and expect people to play on it? k, have fun with your delusions. i'm sure you'll make some great illegal stages.
For the record, I probably would. Take out the star as a mini-game reward, and weaken to effect from the microgames, and I don't see anything too wrong with it.
 

DQP

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
610
Location
Anchorage, AK
do we have to be so harsh here? AA has a good point. i feel that norfair is a good counterpick, particularly since it lends a hand to the characters who rely on tether recoveries, like ZSS or ivysaur. i'm not saying it doesn't have issues *cough*hugelavafall*cough*, but it's not completely unfair.

i don't feel like every stage can be legal, no matter what we do. temple, 75m, and new pork are all huge stages that would allow significantly more stalling, even if we do remove caves of life and other obstacles. we can make some stages a lot more reasonable, such as PTAD or luigi's mansion. but i think that temple and other stages are too unfair to legalize.
 

Eldiran

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
1,707
Location
Pennsylvania
you say its meant to be competitive but you keep WW as is and expect people to play on it? k, have fun with your delusions. i'm sure you'll make some great illegal stages.
Um, actually WarioWare is banned by BBrawl rules. It'll only be remotely viable when the invincibility and mushroom rewards are removed.
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
5,272
Location
Nowhere Land
even if you could remove the rewards, the stage itself still has over powered hazards that can kill in one hit. not to mention, if you were to just remove 2 of the rewards, you would have the healing reward left.

there are a lot of reasons why WW is banned in general, and its more than just overpowered rewards.


as for NPC, we have a guy trying to move the platforms around so it can 1) be smaller and 2) be a better stage to fight on.
 

AMKalmar

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
887
Location
Hamilton ON CA
do we have to be so harsh here? AA has a good point. i feel that norfair is a good counterpick, particularly since it lends a hand to the characters who rely on tether recoveries, like ZSS or ivysaur. i'm not saying it doesn't have issues *cough*hugelavafall*cough*, but it's not completely unfair.

i don't feel like every stage can be legal, no matter what we do. temple, 75m, and new pork are all huge stages that would allow significantly more stalling, even if we do remove caves of life and other obstacles. we can make some stages a lot more reasonable, such as PTAD or luigi's mansion. but i think that temple and other stages are too unfair to legalize.
NPC will be legal in less than 2 days.
 

Mr. Escalator

G&W Guru
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Messages
2,103
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Hudson, NH
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MrEscalator
I'm going to throw my voice in too. As Eldiran noted, WW isn't legal in Balanced Brawl. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that Amazing Ampharos didn't want to freeze WarioWare because he wanted to keep it's feel if he ever wanted to make competitive changes to it. At the time, though, there is no way to change the reward system on WarioWare, nor is there much advancement going on in the hazard hitbox editing department. As he can't edit it the way he would like (changing reward system primarily, then a few touch ups), he has just left it alone.

If WW had only the healing left, it would be an interesting Counter Pick stage. Not banned. You're the delusional one if you think it's still an awful stage even with a new reward system.

Regardless, I'm excited for some of the things you good chaps are doing. I'll be keeping a watch for the Flat Zone with edges you guys are checking out.
 

hotdogturtle

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
3,503
In response to some post up there, I see literally no reason to mess with Frigate Orpheon at all. It's already a legal counterpick, and any minor imbalances that it may or may not have are only temporary and go away when the stage moves or flips.
 

MK26

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
4,450
Location
http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
So, my suggestions (let me know if any of these are impossible):
-Make the right side of the moving platform on the first phase grabbable.
-Make the solid parts of both phases intangible only during flip (but leave the platforms so characters don't just fall). This way it will no longer be able to push you while flipping.
-Make the middle part of the second phase main platform (the part without solid blocks underneath) intangible. This will allow anyone who gets stuck underneath during flip to have a chance to recover.
First and last are possible via hexing, but the second (and, arguably, most important) would require a code. In fact, I've previously considered all three of these options, but, as was said before, FO is already a legitimate cp. Don't fix what ain't broken, right?

My God, EVERYTHING has to be FD.

Luigi's mansion in the first post is the only stage that was ruined.
I'm not entirely sure what you're insinuating here, but if it's an insult, i'm deeply insulted.
 
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