Out of order, new matchup thread coming soon!

castorpollux · Dec 10, 2009

The perfect strategy to beat lucario is demonstrated in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXUcOei3FUM

yep bair dance

Sesshomuronay · Dec 10, 2009

castorpollux said:
The perfect strategy to beat lucario is demonstrated in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXUcOei3FUM

yep bair dance

n00b thats not bair dancing. thats bear dancing!

Yink · Dec 19, 2009

Hi Wolf board ~

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258841

Ness' are currently discussing Wolf. We'd appreciate it if you came to help us out. Thanks guys!

Sesshomuronay · Dec 29, 2009

Lets try to get some more discussion going in this.

Goldenadept · Dec 29, 2009

on which character though? maybe we should discuss characters you hardly ever see, if you dont know the MU even low tiers can be tough

tekkie · Dec 29, 2009

i played bloodhawk a few weeks ago and man those invisible hitboxes are insane. when spaced right it feels like the perfect distance for bair and then you get hit by a laggy aura move. it's weird.

KRDsonic · Dec 29, 2009

I'm just waiting until we reach the DK and Luigi discussions, since those are the two characters I fight the most.

Seagull Joe · Dec 29, 2009

Lucario annoys me a lot. Just when I think I can follow him in the air he Dairs me. I think the matchup is like 60-40 Lucario's favor at worst or at best 50-50.

Ishiey · Dec 29, 2009

I think we should get some Lucarios in here, iirc they find it about even or slightly in our favor. His dair isn't game-changing against Wolf, can't uair trade with it?

Atomsk_92 · Dec 29, 2009

Just fair lucario.

Sesshomuronay · Dec 29, 2009

F-air and B-air are really good in this matchup. And you can camp to get lucario to approach.

I would try to keep wolfs d-smash fresh since you don't want lucario living to high percent.

Goldenadept · Dec 29, 2009

can't lucario do some sort of CG on us at lower percents? does that really affect the MU at all? I know reflector is really good in this MU as well, for hitting aura sphere's back and breaking combo's. If the lucario is recovering low, its like wolf, a speed hug will end him and if he's recovering high the only lucario is play likes to counter me when i chase him... that being said, baiting counter guarantees you a hit.

_Kain_ · Dec 29, 2009

shine gimps anyone?

Goldenadept · Dec 29, 2009

i dunno if i really gimps MK although i remember gull proclaiming that he shine gimps mk's, and i don't think it hits snake out of his cypher...

_Kain_ · Dec 29, 2009

Goldenadept said:
i dunno if i really gimps MK although i remember gull proclaiming that he shine gimps mk's, and i don't think it hits snake out of his cypher...

i meant lucario lol i dont think id try it on a mk unless it was super situational and only on snake if he isnt in his cypher since if he is it wont do anything to him

Goldenadept · Dec 29, 2009

oh ok, i thought it was a question pertaining to the shine in general XD lawl. If you shine lucario you'd have to haul your but to recover i think cause his up b has less start up time so he might still make it back before you, or would the hit stun make that impossible?

_Kain_ · Dec 29, 2009

Goldenadept said:
oh ok, i thought it was a question pertaining to the shine in general XD lawl. If you shine lucario you'd have to haul your but to recover i think cause his up b has less start up time so he might still make it back before you, or would the hit stun make that impossible?

if u shine gimp so dat u can side b back it beats him for sure. the up b idk i think it still beats his? might have to test it

Goldenadept · Dec 29, 2009

yeah if you can side b he's dead, who thought to not give lucario a hit box with his recovery? XD i don't know why we'd follow him down anyways since a ledge hog works better

iRJi · Dec 29, 2009

My present from the Lucario boards.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7911882&postcount=1

Its a bit old for information, but its useful xP

Vionce · Dec 30, 2009

Sesshomuronay said:
And you can camp to get lucario to approach.

Not necessarily since wolf's lasers don't clank with aura sphere. It's not incredibly difficult to fire one while wolf is firing and unable to use his reflector.

_Kain_ said:
shine gimps anyone?

It's not going to happen very often unless lucario had buffered a jab, but was knocked off stage so it turned into a nair. I think just using bair to edgeguard is a better idea, especially when i'm pretty sure lucario's fair outranges the shine. With dair stalling, it would be a little difficult to aim it especially when wolf's doesn't stop him in midair like fox's.

iRJi · Dec 30, 2009

_Kain_ said:
if u shine gimp so dat u can side b back it beats him for sure. the up b idk i think it still beats his? might have to test it

Giming Lucario is harder then it looks, as his air game is actually top notch. What might be a gimp for Wolf might turn into a gimp for Lucario. Lucario's Air mobility and his 1st/2nd jump are very high also, so getting back to the stage on the most part is actually fairly easy.

Seagull Joe · Dec 30, 2009

Yeah, Lucario can just Fair while falling and still be able to recover so Shine spiking him isn't usually an option. And Lucario on Yoshi's island doesn't even need to worry about that cause he can wall cling.

_Kain_ · Dec 30, 2009

iRJi said:
Giming Lucario is harder then it looks, as his air game is actually top notch. What might be a gimp for Wolf might turn into a gimp for Lucario. Lucario's Air mobility and his 1st/2nd jump are very high also, so getting back to the stage on the most part is actually fairly easy.

Yeah i can see what u mean about this that usually works for wolf in all his gimping if u fail u usually get gimped instead

Shine beats out fair it goes rite thru there aura. But yea i can see how his high 2nd jump and floatyness make it hard to shine gimp him. Plus the dair stallin

Goldenadept · Dec 30, 2009

so i guess bair is the best choice if you're going to try and keep lucario from recovery then, just bair once or twice then retreat and edge hog

Sesshomuronay · Jan 5, 2010

I added stuff for lucario.

So is 50:50 the agreed ratio thingy? And I guess I'll wait a day or two if people want to choose a character to discuss other than zss or if anyone else has anything to add for lucario. If nobody says anything then I'll just start the discussion for zss in a day or two.

phi1ny3 · Jan 5, 2010

If Lucario's being shine gimped or bair gimped he's 80% of the time screwing up one recovering properly.

As a whole, most of the time Wolf outcamps lucario, until mega percents then it's standoffish, even then Lucario will probably be forced to approach

I really like Wolf's onstage control game it's so freaky.

We miiiiiight have uthrow CG because we haven't fully tested buffering/standing pivot stuff, but atm we don't have a realistic one, it's pretty much a tech chase scenario.

Lucario bair and fsmash is really good in this MU, very tricky to punish if used properly. Lucario has better anti-air stuff than given credit for.

wolf bair is annoying, very good zoning tool. AC fair can do some nasty stuff too.

lucario juggling is golden for Lucario in getting damage, has some pretty decent setups.

Offstage, I'd say Wolf doesn't do as well as Lucario in most cases, although wolf has the capacity to pressure Lucario when he's on the ledge with some annoying stuff. Lucario has a holiday with wolf offstage imo, as I personally think Lucario's edgeguard game is very underused.

Wolf dsmash is gewd, keep this thing fresh or this MU will not like you.

I'd say the evenish realm is reasonable.

You will hate Lylat (for obvious reasons), JJ (If it's allowed in your region), Frigate Orpheon, YI, and maybe Castle Siege for this MU.
I think your best neutral would be BF because I think Wolf's platform control is better than Lucario's in this scenario. FD lets you camp, but it gets icky when it comes to trying to kill Lucario on that stage.

~ Gheb ~ · Jan 5, 2010

Lylat isn't bad for Wolf vs Lucario, JJ is one of Wolfs better CPs, YI is like his best neutral =/

phi1ny3 · Jan 5, 2010

eh, I always thought Lylat messed around with his camping and recovery, but I could be wrong.

I don't see Wolf benefiting from the huge boundaries on JJ as much as Lucario, this is one of those stages where Lucario can live for a long time and be a pain if done properly, as for YI I can see it being good for wolf, but wallcling + decent stage boundaries are among some of the qualities I look for, and I think Lucario benefits from the platform placement more than wolf does.

Wolf generally wants to press his three main more outward ordinances in this MU, his camping, his stage control (aka being onstage as much as possible and being offstage at a minimum), and maximizing his killing ability when fighting Lucario. Any stage with large boundaries, pretty gimpworthy edgeplay, or restrictive platforms hurt Wolf in this MU.

I take it back, YI would be pretty good for Wolf's bair and laser shenanigans.

Ishiey · Jan 5, 2010

Can you elaborate on the uses of bair, juggle setups, and Lucario's AA arsenal in general? I especially have no idea how bair is used x_x

phi1ny3 · Jan 5, 2010

Bair is Lucario's longest ranged aerial, acts like a peach fair pretty much and is very safe when spaced right since it has strong IASA frames during the attack animation when landing. It also does good damage and sends them at a nice angle to "follow up" from reading, aka it leaves space in case of shine or AD, but enough to follow up pretty well.

Grab, jab, FP, DA, and utilt are all good setups, and there's moves that go into these ones too.

Basically, avoid getting juggled in this MU, this is one of the more reliable damage racking options that unlike stringing shine doesn't mess up as much.

If I had to give a ratio I'd say 50:50, maaaaaaybe 55:45 Wolf's favor.

Goldenadept · Jan 5, 2010

it almost seems like this MU is much like the wolf/marth one, both characters seem pretty evenly matched, so its up to the better player to pull out the win

Seagull Joe · Jan 5, 2010

I talked to Junebug about this matchup and he regularly beats me with Lucario. He says the matchup is 55-45 Wolf's favor. Wolf's on stage game is far superior to Lucarios and as long as Wolf doesn't follow Lucario off stage he is fine.

Sesshomuronay · Jan 5, 2010

Should we put it as 55-45 wolf's favor then?

Atomsk_92 · Jan 6, 2010

The only time I tried the match I lost last hit to Zucco because apparently Fsmash has a hit box in the heel of lucario's back paw.

phi1ny3 · Jan 6, 2010

Atomsk_92 said:
The only time I tried the match I lost last hit to Zucco because apparently Fsmash has a hit box in the heel of lucario's back paw.

Lucario has the most lulziest hitboxes.

Sesshomuronay · Jan 7, 2010

Ok, lets start ZSS.

Goldenadept · Jan 7, 2010

her dsmash can do some real damage on you if you aren't careful, i don't know if she can do it infinitely or not but either way its no fun.
Her down b spike is a real pain when you're trying to recover as is her side b which she'll punish you with if you get predictable. her uair can juggle pretty well but shine beats that, i thiiink her 3rd jab can be PS'd everytime i've played a lot of Zamus so i'll post more later

tekkie · Jan 7, 2010

all i really know about the matchup is that it gets easier when those **** suit pieces are gone

Ishiey · Jan 7, 2010

They seem to think that we have a slight advantage. Dsmash chains us a bit but it's not that horrible, or at least that's what I can tell from the one Wolf vs ZSS vid in their thread >_>

Seagull Joe · Jan 8, 2010

The Zss in Md/Va says Wolf is his worst matchup. Thanks to me

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