Matchup Rediscussion Export: King Dedede (3)

phi1ny3 · Jan 27, 2010

King Dedede

Matchup:

40:60

General info:

FlameWaveK said:
uh.

this is one of the match-ups where you want to be on the side of the stage.

CP Areas that are small or with uneven ground.

like Lylat, Yoshis Island, etc.

Try to force air combat and play very very safe on the ground.

EDIT:oh yeah and before I forget.

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Seriously

AtotheZ said:
As for the matchup itself I think it is 60:40 dedede's favor. His backair can control the matchup without necessarily grabbing at all, that is until lucario gets into lethal percents.

I hope this helped...

Fogo said:
I feel like it's 55:45, 60:40 at worst. This is coming from a Lucario standpoint.

I actually started playing lucario because I hated the DDD ditto and there were a lot of DDDs in my are at the time, so naturally I don't think it's that bad.

Look at the Pros and Cons.

Cons

* Lucario gets chaingrabbed

* Edgeguard is fairly easy

* DDD can kill early with (Only 2 of his moves can really be considered as "early kill
potential" If you're even decent at Luc or the MU)

Pros

* We can kill him early

* We have combo strings that are completely safe on shield.

* Edgeguarding is extremely easy.

It's in DDD's favor, but it's definitely not a horrible MU.

FlameWaveK said:
40:60 disadvantage just because DDD lives forever <_<

Oh yeah some last minute advice on recovery:
- Don't Airdodge past him, seriously its ****ing pointless.
- DDD has to go two ways to edgeguard you, high or low. provided you DI'd right [up and away] you have the following options depending on what course DDD takes:
--High: Hang back out of bair range and try to grab the edge, DDD has terrible aerial movement so it shouldn't be too difficult.
--Low: Dair stall until its safe to land on the stage.
-as always SAVE THAT MIDRAIR JUMP.

pew pew pewww

What to avoid:

phi1ny3 said:
Even if he can't do dtilt after CG, he can always ftilt for damage.
bthrow also hurts a loooooot.
Or he can do that gay thing where he keeps pummeling you at the edge until you release below, which puts you in a dangerous position. Be very smart around the ledge, always be ready to DI bair, and you should NEVER get hit by fair.

phi1ny3 said:
Frankly for the wallcling factor, I wouldn't be afraid of dtilt/dair, since dtilt you would need to be really close to get knocked, and dair is very easy to see coming, and is very risky. I would be afraid of bairing our wallcling, on the other hand, in fact, I think bair is the worst part of fighting against D3 as Lucario, CG is very doable, but a fast long ranged sex kick that can put lucario's recovery on ice? Pretty nasty. You have to be extra careful with it, and DI it properly, or it will spell the end of a stock very easily.

Oh and if we are assuming highest levels of play, killing a lucario from wallcling on highest levels is technically impossible, at least if the lucario could tech consistently (unless it's MK, then you're screwed because his aerials don't have much abusable end lag to let you recover safely). It's a very possible option when getting attacked, and it's humanly possible to tech consistently, but most don't :\

Be warned, however, footstooling can happen to your wallcling and can very easily kill you.

How to win:

ShippoFoxFire said:
lol, the replays are too good.

But for real, I don't think Lucario has a hard time fighting against King Dedede. I KNOW it's not even, but I KNOW it's not 65:35. Lucario is an awkward character for matchups since some stages can make-or-break it.

Lucario can get into D3 in the air, and **** him when he gets offstage if D3 doesnt recover high. You can Usmash his recovery(which is always hilarious), and ftilt his shield(however it REALLY must be spaced properly). Besides Gordo's, when D3 camps with waddles, Lucario can just give them a fair while spacing(Bair shouldnt be used, as the lag on it will allow Lucario to get hit by second one if a waddle is ALREADY next to Dedede) if Lucario is close enough. Lucario can, in my opinion, camp King Dedede, as this is a very patient matchup to me.

At high percents be wary of comming in from above, since a simple side-step utilt can end a stock, and all of Dedede's other kills moves are predictable and slow, or is a Gordo.(Dedede's usually have staled Bair by now)

Even though the above seems like Lucario can make it even he still has some faults in the matchup, like getting chaingrabbed into ftilt off the stage, all forms of AS are beaten by a simple waddle(but Lucario can still camp with AS), Dedede can **** our recovery if we're not careful.

So, I really want to say it's 55:45, but it's not. But it's better than 65:35, but It's not that bad. I kinda want to say that 60:40 is where it belongs, but something doesnt settle me. Since Marth was also put in this category, and so was GnW when he was thought of as Lucario's devil. I really DON'T want to say 62:38, since that would be an awkward matchup number, but it's NOT 65:35, and it seems to be a harder matchup for Lucario than 60:40

LordoftheMorning said:
The thing that always gives me hope in this MU is DDD's size. He's so susceptible to combos.

I would suggest maybe using fullhop fairs or Dairing behind him because they aren't as easy to sheild grab.

Jab mixups and FP combos work well in this matchup (if I recall correctly). I might be playing some D3's today in a tourny, so I'll share my thoughts when I get back.

Helpful tips:

phi1ny3 said:
It's also possible to space dair without being sheildgrabbed, for the record.

iRJi said:
That's because your suppose to Usmash his recovery. By doing so yo cover both options in terms of him going for the stage, or him going for the ledge if he decides to try and move for it.

Yes, this is true. But if you are not in reach for a grab hecan OoS Bair you, and also if your Dair doesnt move him far enough he can Utilt it as well.

MythTrainerInfinity said:
Good stuff, RJ. Your Lucario is just quick good strategy with FThrow and damage racking via Aura Sphere camping when he tries to get back onto the stage. Man, he sure got a lot of Gordos first game.

I would like to point out that you should use your jabs/utilt on the Waddles to help refresh your stuff (also letting the first jab combo easier into stuff oh and it can help shield against other waddles if they are in the air a lil'). Like his second stock in your first game would've been gone via Aura Sphere at 4:45 if you refreshed on the Waddles when ya had the chance.

Edit: I'd have to guess this match-up is about 55:45 D3's favor.

iRJi said:
Oh, which reminds me, I found a combo against d3 a while ago that should be garenteed from 0. Tested it with pierce. The combo is:

Utilt, Jab, FP, Fair, Nair.

Now what happens is, from the Utilt to jab, it pushes him into the air with enough hit stun to be grabbed with FP. Since D3 has no moves fast enough to come out to handel that, he falls into it. Since he has damage from the first 2 hits, FP is also harder to break out of. I normally throw 2, but throwing one is what leads to the Fair to nair combo. Go test it, have fun with it. I am 90% sure it works.

Stages:

FlameWaveK said:
Cruise is a terrible idea.

Get infinated on the ship and on the top he gets walkoff CGs and early uptilt kills.

DDD would switch on norfair I think lawl considering there are very few DDD only mains in this world I wouldn't try going there, plus its not always legal.

Like I said, Lylat, YI, ~~Castle <3~~

I guess BF but some DDDs have legit practice there.

and wth you camp DDD fine with %

I don't care what this guy says, don't use Castle Siege against DDD.

AtotheZ said:
Take dedede to Japes if you lose a round. You can camp pretty well and the boundaries are enormous so less to worry about up tilt. Norfair is also a good one bearing if it is legal.

Kitamerby said:
<<

DDD mains would rejoice if you pick Rainbow Cruise on them, btw.

It's quite possibly the stupidest choice you could possibly make. Small-steps, walk-offs, and infinites everywhere, combined with very small blastzones... Why the hell would you possibly want to take DDD here? >>

phi1ny3 said:
What about Japes guys?
I don't know if D3 has some huge thing I'm not aware of there, but there's a lot of good things about it, namely his best killers (besides bair) are vertical, his CG is mitigated to only like 3 times at most because of how the platforms limit his CG time, so he'll be using bair a lot more in the MU, which will be super stale when it comes time to kill you, and it makes our camp game better, it also lets us live against usmash, utilt, and dsmash, which are his better kill moves. That and he can't edgeguard us much on this stage.

I would have to say there was a lot of tossup stuff in the stage discussion for this. After I saw Lee's technique in camping D3 though, I'd have to say SV is actually a pretty good stage (not to mention that plat is VEEERY helpful for an additional recovery option as lucario.

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

phi1ny3 · Jan 27, 2010

Good stuff guys
yeyeeee

F1ZZ · Jan 27, 2010

Lots of good info and I agree with not using Castle Siege against this puff ball.

phi1ny3 · Jan 27, 2010

Those two stages (2nd and 3rd) imo are pretty bad to use against D3, but ESPECIALLY the second stage. Statues that block AS camping + walk off CG death is no fun.

culexus・wau · Jan 27, 2010

You should never get grabbed on the 2nd stage. the statues help more then hurt. [you can jump and run away on them, and it increases your hitboxes.

Its a try it and see thing more then anything.

I will explain the Mu there in great detail if you want.

</3 Phil.

little trick that you should know is that you can slightly DI the dthrow.

I reccomend either up and away, away, or away and down to get to the floor.

this is a BIG thing because on stages like lylat and CASTLE SIEGE 3 you can escape the CG with proper DI.

phi1ny3 · Jan 27, 2010

And then there's the last stage where you get CG'd like 7 times, which although boosts your camping, the lack of more recovery options kinda hurts lucario.

Even though the plats idea seems plausible, still something kinda iffy esp. if I'm risking a 1 grab (which isn't hard to pull of with D3) = death, which iirc can occur on both the bottom level and the slanted top side parts of the 2nd transformation.

culexus・wau · Jan 27, 2010

If you play on the level as much as I do its not a problem.

the last stage you can escape the CG depending on the tilts

Matchup Rediscussion Export: King Dedede (3)

phi1ny3

Not the Mama

phi1ny3

Not the Mama

F1ZZ

Smash Lord

phi1ny3

Not the Mama

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><

phi1ny3

Not the Mama

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><

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