Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

Bomber7 said:

Wouldn't it be common for an IC to use mini glacier attack like first thing especially against someone like PT? not like Ivy can really out range that.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it does outrange Ivy, but Razor Leaf reflects Ice Shot and goes through it. You'll be fine as long as you don't let yourself get forced into the air. I actually think that Charizard has more trouble with Ice Shot than Ivysaur does - he's slow in the air, huge, and Flamethrower is limited in range and duration, so he can't really block Ice Shot that well. Gliding helps a lot for getting to them, though. Just be careful of Blizzard and tilts.

Fearmy said:

Squirtle is small enough not to get grabbed, yet he is Easy Shield Grab fodder. Charizard is better off later in the fight when against IC, Ivy i recommend because Ivysaur can space well with Bair and send back IC's Projectile with a razor leaf, forcing IC to come and approach.

Click to expand...

You'd be surprised how effective it is for Squirtle to d-air their shield and land on the other side of it... Even Mario can do that. And yes, Ivysaur can force the Climbers to approach, but what then? If they know about desynching (which they will), their approach becomes amazing, borderline godly. Ivysaur simply can't brickwall two opponents at once - nobody can. Yes, b-air is good, but they will break through it eventually, and a single Squall from them does as much damage as six of Ivy's b-airs, so all you'll have accomplished is wasting time, which is not helpful early in the match.

And again, this isn't about who has the best match-up, it's about who is best for starting. Squirtle will get forced to approach by Ice Shot, and he can do so. He's good at seperating them and gimping Nana early in the fight. Hell, he has potential to gimp Nana, edgeguard Popo and gimp Nana on the next stock before fatigue kicks in. Charizard can get in their face and **** them altogether, being capable of taking their stock and then handing the baton to Squirtle for the next one. Ivysaur is OK, but made obsolete by the other two. He doesn't seperate that well, and gimping Nana is made risky by Popo being able to simply edgehog.

Ivysaur is easily your best option against a lone Climber, and I recommend that you switch to him as soon as you have Popo alone with a low %, but when they're together, you're much better off with either Squirtle or Charizard. And since they start the match together, you'll need someone who can work around that.

Retro Gaming said:

I actually shift between Squirtle and Ivysaur starters in this match-up, and I think that switching in this match-up is actually helpful because all three go about attacking the Ice Climbers radically different. I think this is one of the few match-ups where switching Pokémon can actually help confuse your opponent.

I highly recommend only Squirtle or Ivysaur start, and not Charizard. As typical, I lean more toward Ivysaur because I'm simply more comfortable with Ivysaur, but also, I feel that Ivysaur has less of a chance of "messing up" and getting grabbed by the Ice Climbers. It really comes down to whichever your more comfortable with.

The other thing I like about Ivysaur start is that you can switch to Charizard, who is in my opinion the best Pokémon versus a solo Ice Climber. Otherwise, I just try to tank them and use Flamethrower, which is very helpful versus them.

Click to expand...

It's sounds nice that, because IC isn't that too bad of a match up that there is a sense of flexibility among all 3 but Kage makes some pretty good points.

Kage Me said:

Yeah, it does outrange Ivy, but Razor Leaf reflects Ice Shot and goes through it. You'll be fine as long as you don't let yourself get forced into the air. I actually think that Charizard has more trouble with Ice Shot than Ivysaur does - he's slow in the air, huge, and Flamethrower is limited in range and duration, so he can't really block Ice Shot that well. Gliding helps a lot for getting to them, though. Just be careful of Blizzard and tilts.


You'd be surprised how effective it is for Squirtle to d-air their shield and land on the other side of it... Even Mario can do that. And yes, Ivysaur can force the Climbers to approach, but what then? If they know about desynching (which they will), their approach becomes amazing, borderline godly. Ivysaur simply can't brickwall two opponents at once - nobody can. Yes, b-air is good, but they will break through it eventually, and a single Squall from them does as much damage as six of Ivy's b-airs, so all you'll have accomplished is wasting time, which is not helpful early in the match.

And again, this isn't about who has the best match-up, it's about who is best for starting. Squirtle will get forced to approach by Ice Shot, and he can do so. He's good at seperating them and gimping Nana early in the fight. Hell, he has potential to gimp Nana, edgeguard Popo and gimp Nana on the next stock before fatigue kicks in. Charizard can get in their face and **** them altogether, being capable of taking their stock and then handing the baton to Squirtle for the next one. Ivysaur is OK, but made obsolete by the other two. He doesn't seperate that well, and gimping Nana is made risky by Popo being able to simply edgehog.

Ivysaur is easily your best option against a lone Climber, and I recommend that you switch to him as soon as you have Popo alone with a low %, but when they're together, you're much better off with either Squirtle or Charizard. And since they start the match together, you'll need someone who can work around that.

Click to expand...

If Ivy will be ok as long as he doesn't get in the air, wont he have to jump over the ice pieces to make his approach? I suppose you could shield however, that vulnerable moment in time could make IC approach as well. I'm not really sure on it all, because, depending on how far you were, if you were to jump over the ice piece, then you could get hit my an upward attack or something that would do best for that situation. Overall, despite my ignorance on this match up, I will admit that your points are valid, just knowing how all 3 pokemon work, it seems to me that they do make sense, at least to me. I still want to hear what else everyone has to say, I want to form a better opinion that doesn't just come from what you have to say lol.

Bomber7 said:

If Ivy will be ok as long as he doesn't get in the air, wont he have to jump over the ice pieces to make his approach? I suppose you could shield however, that vulnerable moment in time could make IC approach as well.

Click to expand...

Use Razor Leaf to clear the path of any Ice Blocks ahead, then advance. Once your Razor Leaf wears out, repeat to clear the path of new Ice Blocks. Then advance. This stuff is way more appropiate for the match-up thread, though...

I personally don't think Ivysaur is all that good against ICs on the ground OR in the air. Yes, he has Razor Leaf and some range on his spacing moves, but eventually he has to get inside, and that's when ICs have him.

Ivysaur can rack up damage really well. The only thing ICs have is the chaingrab stuff, and Ivysaur can keep them out, making Ivysaur a naturally-good choice.

Charizard can do well for the same reasons, since spacing with Rock Smash, Flamethrower, and D-Tilt do wonders in spacing here, but Charizard is a bigger target for getting grabbed.

Squirtle doesn't really have amazing spacing tools, so he is the easiest to grab. He can separate them and destroy Nana after that, but the risk is fairly high until then. Also, a single Ice Climber can D-Throw chaingrab Squirtle at low percents, making it easier to start stuff up for the opponent.

I'd say just take your pick with Ivysaur or Charizard; it's the spacing that does well here. Charizard can KO once Ivysaur deals damage slowly-but-surely, so maybe Ivysaur is the most logical choice as a starter, so that you save Charizard from getting fatigued.

Hmm, well it looks like all three could possibly start, how I look at it as of now. However I only say that because it looks like that all 3 can serve a part among what seems like to be 2 different situations. I guess it's all in how you would play them, make your opening moves and if necessary, then switch to your next pokemon. being CG'd is inevitable, we have already established that, however there is more to coping with or against a strategy than just IC spamming CG.

So far from what I can recall that has been said so far:

Squirtle will be good with his speed and agility to keep separated and I would believe from the way you guys make it sound that with squirtle, you can get down to a single IC. Despite the fact that he lacks spacing tools, however I don't know how well water gun would work here if you got the chance to, but he can cover much ground and I would think Squirtle would be good for having a base strategy of getting one IC to fight with and then leaving the real fighting to Ivy and Charz.

Ivysaur can make the range battle against IC and he is powerful to an extent so it wouldnt take much to get them separated and I'm confident that you could use Ivy's spacing move set to keep them separated and even possibly take them down in that one stock or even get down to a single IC. I just overall have great confidence that Ivy can space well against IC and that could serve a good purpose in whatever strategy you may have.

Charizard has some pretty good spacing moves, not to mention I would think a move such as Rock smash would also provide a little pressure as well. He can space a mid range with flamethrower which can rack up damage well too, if you space him out right, you will get the best you of most of his moves, like my favorite is the bair because I love flame tipping people. He can also take some punishment too so he is a durable character, plus if you need to necessarily have to, you can make a sacrificial switch to Squirtle, so that way on your next stock, if it is available, you have Ivysaur out again.

Over all those are my thoughts thus far. They all have great move sets and they all don't have to stay out for a long time, with this match up I find some flexibility in switching, they can all do their part in whatever plan you may have formulated and because it's a 3 in one character with 3 styles to adapt to, the pressure is on, imo.

I know I didn't mention anything about the CG but I just wanted to put into retrospect as to how a possible match could go w/o assuming the person will spam CG.

Any objections? add ons? comments?

TheReflexWonder said:

Ivysaur can rack up damage really well. The only thing ICs have is the chaingrab stuff, and Ivysaur can keep them out, making Ivysaur a naturally-good choice.

Charizard can do well for the same reasons, since spacing with Rock Smash, Flamethrower, and D-Tilt do wonders in spacing here, but Charizard is a bigger target for getting grabbed.

Squirtle doesn't really have amazing spacing tools, so he is the easiest to grab. He can separate them and destroy Nana after that, but the risk is fairly high until then. Also, a single Ice Climber can D-Throw chaingrab Squirtle at low percents, making it easier to start stuff up for the opponent.

I'd say just take your pick with Ivysaur or Charizard; it's the spacing that does well here. Charizard can KO once Ivysaur deals damage slowly-but-surely, so maybe Ivysaur is the most logical choice as a starter, so that you save Charizard from getting fatigued.

Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more. I play some extremely vicious Ice Climbers, and Ivysaur is a very bad choice against them. As we've already established in the Game & Watch match, Ivysaur can't space for the entire match. Eventually Ice Climbers are going to catch up with him. Even if they don't, what's he going to do when it comes time to KO/switch? Nothing that won't put him in danger of a zero-death. Absolutely nothing. He doesn't even have any viable ways to separate them short of a lucky up air/smash or Vine Whip. Ivysaur makes the absolute LEAST sense to start against Ice Climbers that have a clue what they're doing.

Squirtle's aerial speed means the world to this match-up. It means he can stay in the air and poke away at the ICs while keeping wary of shield grabs and things of that nature. The insta/hydroplane is also an asset for separating them, and Squirtle can be a separated Nana's worst nightmare.

Charizard trades off the size and aerial speed for even better separation abilities and better range for spacing.

Squirtle definitely make sense as a starter, Charizard MIGHT make some sense as a starter. Ivysaur is a really horrible starter.

if ivysaur has a lot of ground to work with then i think it's fine. but there aren't many stages at all that give you that room.

my buddy mains the ICs and from experiences i've had Squirtle is the best because he is the quickest. He could space with his Bair and his throws are super quick. Ivy is okay but using his Bair and razor leaf for defense is great. Fsmash is good too cause it usually hits nana out of the way. Charizard is probably the worst cause his throws take forever and he is so huge. but a well placed flamethrower can do good.

Matabird said:

my buddy mains the ICs and from experiences i've had Squirtle is the best because he is the quickest. He could space with his Bair and his throws are super quick. Ivy is okay but using his Bair and razor leaf for defense is great. Fsmash is good too cause it usually hits nana out of the way. Charizard is probably the worst cause his throws take forever and he is so huge. but a well placed flamethrower can do good.

Click to expand...

well of course we could expect slow throws that come from Ivy and Charz would not work. With Nana there or whoever you don't grab, will be there and they can manage to prevent you from doing any grabbing. Squirtle, since he is fast, is fine.

Yeah, I agree. If you're trying to throw ICs with Charizard, you are playing very, very wrong.

Ivys back throw is super quick and is good against them. you can usually run up and catch them off guard with it or a pivot grab if they aren't expecting it and separate them with it. Yeah throws with charizard are horrible.

I was actually thinking of Ivy's back throw. That may be the only exception unless Ivy is a decently fast thrower.

Though Charizard has a pretty good move set to fight IC with so him not being able to grab IC when they are together isn't that bad of a set back, once alone, that's a different story

Ok guys, I hope you had a nice weekend, if you went to some tournies, I hope you placed well and kicked some ***, now lets get back to our current discussion. Do you think we have enough information for a summary or should we continue to talk about this more in case something has been left out. Overall Imo I think I could pull a simple summary up from what we have.

I think we've more or less arrived at a reasonable consensus on the subject.

Steeler said:

if ivysaur has a lot of ground to work with then i think it's fine. but there aren't many stages at all that give you that room.

Click to expand...

I disagree, because the Ice Climbers aren't like Metaknight or Game and Watch in regards to having large ranged spacing moves that are going to push you farther and farther to the edge. Secondly, the computer controlled Ice Climber is super weak to multi-hit moves, as it never seems to shield these perfectly. Ivysaur's Nair is extremely helpful in this regard, as is Ftilt.

However, this discussion honestly doesn't benefit deciding which Pokemon is an ideal starting Pokemon.

Against IC's, Ivysaur and Squirtle are more ideal than Charizard since Charizard is a freakin' tank in girth and size, so that means easy chaingrabbing at the start.

As squirtle, you stay in the air.

As Ivysaur, you use multiple hitting moves.

I'll type up a summary tomorrow if I have time, which I'm sure I will but it will probably be later in the evening around 6 or so. So until then just put anything you think could be added or don't post at all.

Later guys.

Retro Gaming said:

I disagree, because the Ice Climbers aren't like Metaknight or Game and Watch in regards to having large ranged spacing moves that are going to push you farther and farther to the edge.

Click to expand...

What about desynced down b walls?

Blizzard lock is for building damage from lower to mid percents. It doesn't nothing at high percents since you can Di during freezes. Also, the Blizzard lock has so much lag after wards, that Ic's is just asking to be punished with The opponent gets out of it.

Besides, IC's ideally doesn't want to just nudge you off stage, they want to send you flying so that you have less options to recover, leading to free smashes or grabs.

Canvasofgrey said:

Blizzard lock is for building damage from lower to mid percents. It doesn't nothing at high percents since you can Di during freezes.

Click to expand...

Remember, we're TALKING about low-to-mid percents. This isn't a match-up thread, it's a starter thread.

True. My mistake.

Mentioning the Blizzard lock, that's another reason that you should not chose charizard since Big characters fail against IC's period due to desynching and their ridiculously powerful air game.

I think Squirtle is the better choice against a blizzard lock since Squirtle has faster aerials so they can punish it easier.

.....squirtles hydrograb. That would effectively separate the climbers, no?

Unless you immediately throw the Ice climber, generally, it's never a good idea to grab with Iceclimbers as opponents since one can defend the other from grabs. In the case of this, It's not too much different since Ice climbers can puppet the other Ice climber to lay down a smash attack on Squirtle while they are recovering.

Not to mention you might grab the wrong Ice climber.

I still say hydrograb -> instant dthrow would separate really well

but what do I know

Well, if you grab Popo, a hydrograb to d-throw has potential to work. If you grab Nana, get ready to eat a f-tilt.

when it comes to blizzard lock, I don't think Squirtle would be in as much danger as charizard due to the weight factor here. =/

Edit: You guys ok with me making the summary now? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to pull up a simple one. However I just need a refresher on what the consensus is, I've been reading the past post and just want to make sure who we all agree on.

Consensus: Start with Squirtle and Charizard as best? Ivysaur as a possibility? <-- not saying Ivy is the best but a possibility.

Basically, yes. That's about right. Glad you liked the picture I sketched you, by the way.

Character Discussion IKE Starts here

@Orion- NP the pic was cool.

Anyways, on to business, it is suggested that any of the three are well suited for starting against Ike.

my thoughts:
Squirtle- Very fast, can pretty much combo Ike to the ledge in a matter of seconds and if you have a water gun charged, can possibly gimp him. Only complain is that if you aren't careful, Squirtle WILL be KO'd EARLY.

Ivysaur- Obvious choice here, can out range Ike horrendously and Ivy's move set was made for heavyweights like Ike. I also see great ability for ledge stealing from a recovering Ike. Enough said, just be careful not to be hit by the Either Spike.

Charizard- In a heavyweight battle, Charizard wins because flamethrower will punish Ike at virtually every turn. My only concerns are off ledge options for Charizard. Is he going to be vulnerable to Ike's spike. Also when Ike is off the ledge, I would not suggest perusing, I would camp the ledge and wit for the right moment because I found in most cases that flamethrower will cause Ike to fail grabbing the ledge even if Ike is in invinci frames in Either. I've done it to my friend when he randomly plays Ike and it's not because he exhausted his either uses. chairzard has more mobility and and out do Ike. So overall I think that switching would be highly flexible.

Squirtle - I'm not an avid fan of using Squirtle against characters that can KO him so early that it makes me cry. I wouldn't chose Squritle as a starter for more personal match-up reasons, but I can see since Ike's Aerials are really slooooow, that you can Uair combo him like a mad turtle.

Ivysaur - Spacing is very important since Ivysaur just has about the same if not just a tad less range in her moves than Ike. However, Ivysaur has the advantage that her moves come out faster than Ike, so use that against him. Personally, I start with Ivysaur against Ike.

Charizard - Eh, not my kind of pokemon to start of with in general. But Charizard has the range to keep Ike at bay and gimp his recovery. Unfortuantely, Ike is so strong that Charizard's survivability is compromised by Ike's moves.

Do we have an Utilt lock on Ike with Squirtle?

I prefer starting Ivysaur against Ike. Ike gets freaking wrecked by nair to Bullet Seed, and spotdodging to Bullet Seed works well, too. Also, bair-bair-nair spike combos on Ike are pure ****. Like canvas said, Ivysaur's moves come out faster than most of Ike's moves, so Ivysaur has the spacing advantage. Also by starting Ivysaur, it allows for Charizard to come in next, who I feel is the second best to start against Ike. Ike gets destroyed by offstage fairs, and by properly predicting Ike's moves, he's relatively easy to spike with dair. Mispredicting, though, leads to Ike taking you down with him. Ugh. XD

With Squirtle, I usually don't start as him unless I found that in a previous match my Squirtle matches up well against this particular Ike. I also don't shellshift as much against Ikes in general because Ike just has to spam jabs to stop Squirtle. Like I said, if I find my Squirtle does well, then I focus on getting Ike in the air. I usually find that the other two Pokemon perform better, though.

To me, all three of the Pokemon make and EXTREMELY good case for starting against Ike.

With Squirtle, the argument is simple: one aether revovery at any percent, and Ike is dead, no questions asked. This means that all Squirtle has to do is off-stage Ike in order to make his life miserable. Easier said than done of course, but don't undersell this. All it trakes is one well-placed hydrograb followed by chasing to discourage the side B, and you've got him nailed. This is EXTREMELY noteworthy to bear in mind for counterpicks.

Not only that, but Squirtle has his up tilt lock and hydroplane tricks as well. He'd be the all-out favorite if it weren't for Ike's VERY nice spacing game, his godly jab, and the threat of his OWN 40% KO (slim though that might be). Squirtle is usually my Pokemon of choice.

Which isn't to undersell Ivysaur, who can outspace Ike and can really cause him serious pain with his specials.

Charizard is also very good at racking up damage and surviving against Ike's powerful attacks early on. Ike's forward air gives Charizard some trouble when setting up his specials (Charizard basically dies air to air against Ike unless he's very defensive), but it can still be managed. Like Squirtle, Charizard has some very good off-stage options against Ike.

I main Ganon, squirtle and zard are the way to start because both have good grab games which is a huge advantage over ganon. zards there because he can easy gimp ganon's recovery because it only takes a small hit to screw up his recovery. but the problem with zard is gerudo ***** him and a ganon with good timing can even get a dsmash off of it. problem with squirtle is if ganon autocancels a stomp into a sweetspotted usmash squirtle is dead at 0%. if you're confident with your spacing with squirtle go for it but if not and you're even decent with zard choose him

GanonCanon said:

I main Ganon, squirtle and zard are the way to start because both have good grab games which is a huge advantage over ganon. zards there because he can easy gimp ganon's recovery because it only takes a small hit to screw up his recovery. but the problem with zard is gerudo ***** him and a ganon with good timing can even get a dsmash off of it. problem with squirtle is if ganon autocancels a stomp into a sweetspotted usmash squirtle is dead at 0%. if you're confident with your spacing with squirtle go for it but if not and you're even decent with zard choose him

Click to expand...

Ganon discussion has been over for a while. Did you read the summary and even though the pages of posts about Ganon that were discussed? Not to mention, we came the the conclusion that the best starters were Ivysaur and Charizard.

anyways, continue with the Ike discussion.

Ike starting options;

1: Squirtle:
Unless you know that the Ike you are facing is inexperienced/n00b, don't even think about it. Ike beats Squirtle in the Range department and the power department, not to mention weight. Squirte's advantages numbers to two: Ike is big, and he sucks at recovering.

2: Ivysaur:
Ivysaur can get Ike very annoyed. Ivysaur has a one up on range, and can easily pwn with bullet seed and his U attacks. I honestly have no Idea if this is actually useful, Ivysaur is the Pokemon I know the least about.

3: Charizard
BY ALL MEANS GO AHEAD! Charizard is against his own kind here. Coincidentally, that's the group he does phenomenally against. Ike is more along the lines of the rule of thumb rather than the exception, so start with Charizard and start the PWNing.

I like the Charizard start here. He's got the range and power to compete with Ike, and Flamethrower stops side-b approaches. Charizard can really control the match from the beginning, not to mention throws/d-tilt can set up for some nice edgeguarding in f-air/d-air or Flamethrower to rack up damage. Start Charizard and tank the first stock - then hopefully when you die you have enough momentum for a fresh Squirtle to come in and start kicking him around. Or if you're not feeling Squirtle, you can try for a safe Ivy switch. Ike's air movement is slow, so getting a switch isn't too hard. Ivy start can work as well... she is just as capable of shutting down the match from the beginning. Then you can switch to Charizard to stock tank as well. I prefer the Charizard start though... he does so well against Ike I don't see why you wouldn't start him from 0%.

I would stay away from Squirtle... one mess up and you could die at 60% to f-smash, not to mention Ivy can't stock tank. He's not bad against Ike, but it's a risky start, especially when you have a better option in Charizard.

Charizard92 said:

Squirte's advantages numbers to two: Ike is big, and he sucks at recovering.

Click to expand...

Don't undersell this. Squirtle's Water Gun takes Aether COMPLETELY out of the equation in this matchup, meaning Ike always has to recover high, which is a bad thing for him, and means he can be intercepted that much easier. And again, he also has the tilt lock. Both of them have potential to KO early in this matchup, no doubt, but I feel that Squirtle makes a lot of sense as a starter, especially if you can make them gunshy right out of the gate.

Apparently Ike also has a chain grab on squirtle, similar to marths. Ive never seen somebody do it successfully, but even if the chain grab isn't legit ike would still get a guaranteed dash attack or quick draw from the air release.

Still, squirtle makes a decent starter.

Any of the thre can do well..... ike can KO squirtle very early, but chances are that you can get the switch to ivy before getting too much damage... and DIing up helps ivys lifea lot because ike's attacks are pretty strong...
i like to start as ivy, switch to zard, stocktank and the bring out squirtle