The SBR official stance on Metaknight.

Overclassed · Aug 11, 2009

This is the kind of strong, midde-of-the-road followship we need from the community leaders.

I'm glad they've waited this long and let the community tear itself to pieces four times to inform us that they don't care enough one way or the other, and that really it's the TOs job to choose.

Well done, gentlemen.

Flamingo · Aug 11, 2009

lol get *****.

'V' · Aug 12, 2009

Overclassed said:
This is the kind of strong, midde-of-the-road followship we need from the community leaders.

I'm glad they've waited this long and let the community tear itself to pieces four times to inform us that they don't care enough one way or the other, and that really it's the TOs job to choose.

Well done, gentlemen.

More than that if you want to count Planking and the Dedede chain grabs.

Niko_K · Aug 12, 2009

The bias in the SBR is hilarious. Brawl will be dead by next year XD

'V' · Aug 12, 2009

Niko_K said:
The bias in the SBR is hilarious. Brawl will be dead by next year XD

As much as I actually hope that'll happen, it's pretty unrealistic unless a lot of people hate Meta Knight SO much that they're willing to just quit right then and there. (And I'm not completely doubting that either.)

Too many people like to play this game too much for it to actually die.

Kewkky · Aug 12, 2009

Old Mocha said:
As much as I actually hope that'll happen, it's pretty unrealistic unless a lot of people hate Meta Knight SO much that they're willing to just quit right then and there.

Too many people like to play this game too much for it to actually die.

No matter how bad the MK infestation goes, I'm not stopping my game. Unless literally the whole community dies in PR, I'll just shrug it off and keep playing to win. I'll just end up playing against 1 character more than others, nothing bad here.

Stitch_Kun · Aug 12, 2009

F all of this, fine people want mk ill give it to em alright :D bye bye

pizzapie7 · Aug 12, 2009

I don't understand the SBR hate. I mean, I think that with a community this young (age wise), leaving things for the community to decide wouldn't be too good. Let's face it, even though most pros are in the 18-26 range, most of the community is more like 13-18. Having a central body voting on what is best for the community has worked for us in the past, I don't understand why we don't think it will work now. We don't need MK to be banned, we just need TOs willing to try MK banned events. Now I don't mean completely banning him in all tournies, I mean just giving it a try.

I also agree with the idea that the SBR should have representation of characters and regions for the most part. Not equal, but more like the House of Representatives, where the states with the most people have more votes. I mean, only having two Snakes or MKs in the backroom with 2 Marios doesn't make much sense, seeing as Mario isn't as important in the tourney scene or as big in the metagame. I would also like to see the representation of mains in the SBR, just because all this talk has gotten me curious.

ShadowLink84 · Aug 12, 2009

Old Mocha said:
More than that if you want to count Planking and the Dedede chain grabs.

Sheik Dthrows /counter

There was tons of gay in melee so I fail to see as to why you show your resentment so easily when it can always go back the same way *shrug* , not inciting a brawl vs melee, but the amount of bias from you is just too great really.

phi1ny3 · Aug 12, 2009

Sometimes as much as I respect the Melee community (especially when I lurked way back when on the marth/M2 boards), I can't get past the bias/contradictory things they say, like how many people who'll actually play Brawl as well say "MK is fun because he can stop gay campiness and play more offensively", I turn around and say "gee, that's swell!", only to find a bunch that have said the exact same thing play the gayest, campiest MKs.
Do they bring up good points? Yes they do. Are they willing to steer clear of bias/bland arguments? Not always.
The same can be applied for Brawl fanboys, but I've hardly heard of Brawl people actively go "search+destroy" on Melee boards.

DotHack · Aug 12, 2009

Xaoz said:
antiban ftw

<3 Xaoz

no homo

Red Arremer · Aug 12, 2009

Overclassed said:
This is the kind of strong, midde-of-the-road followship we need from the community leaders.

I'm glad they've waited this long and let the community tear itself to pieces four times to inform us that they don't care enough one way or the other, and that really it's the TOs job to choose.

Well done, gentlemen.

So, what do you expect us to do if half of the community wants a ban and the other half doesn't?

Also, please read the past few sites, we're not leadership. It's always been the TO's job to choose which rules they want to use. Our rulesets are recommandations, nothing else.

Browny · Aug 12, 2009

Weigh the validity of each sides arguments?

anti-ban appears quite weak compared to pro-ban. especially when you consider that this is smash bros, not street fighter: nintendo edition

Kinzer · Aug 12, 2009

LOL!

Ultimately it is only up to the TOs, the false SBR just gives out recommendations.

I thought we all knew this already.

Red Arremer · Aug 12, 2009

djbrowny said:
anti-ban appears quite weak compared to pro-ban. especially when you consider that this is smash bros, not street fighter: nintendo edition

If you mean the essays that have been posted in the OP of the poll, then know this:
The SBR leadership has set a limit onto the arguments and their length, which the Pro-Ban side has broken. The Anti-Ban side kept inside of these borders, thus their writeup is shorter.

Browny · Aug 12, 2009

who cares about quantity lol? all that matters is the relevance of what is written...

etecoon · Aug 12, 2009

How is pro-ban stronger? Their documents had so many exaggerations and half truths, yeah they make a more appealing emotional argument but it doesn't pass the fact check. Seems like that's been the trend for a while, as far back as when the SBR did a podcast on this, anti-ban was marked by some really boring statistical data that showed that MK's dominance is not unusual for a fighting games best character, while pro-bans argument was punctuated by emotional but ultimately meaningless stories like "I met this mario player at a tournament but he played MK against me, I wanted to play his mario and asked why he played MK and he said "well because you have to", and he was right, his meta knight did much better than his mario". Too bad we have meta knight around or mario would be a real force. most people would rather be told stories that evoke such a response than statistics though I guess.

Dai-A · Aug 12, 2009

36th page idc
Mk is not banned yeah (Just to relate to the topic)

*Waits for 300 pages @_@*

Browny · Aug 12, 2009

like I said, pro-ban actually had more relevant information.

who cares about MK compared to SF, or any other fighting game. Its like making a change on a certain rule in a sport (lets say basketball) because the netball world changed a rule. the similarities between brawl as a competitive fighting game and any other game are just as limited. outside of having the same idea of damaging your opponent with attacks, thats about where the similarities end. smash is unique because of the massive effect counterpicking stages etc brings into it. Unless one of those other fighting games had a character who could simply choose a stage which would alter all matchups further in their favour, then you might be able to start comparing the two.

I just found all the anecdotal evidence of comparing smash to other, LEGITIMATE fighting games, not convincing at all.

etecoon · Aug 12, 2009

smash is a different game, but comparisons to other characters dominance in their respective games is more of a cultural comparison than a game comparison, it says nothing about in game attributes, only "if 25% dominance has never been a problem before why does this community have a problem with it?".

since you brought up stage selection I should note that I think several banned stages should be reconsidered, I think the current stage list exacerbates the "MK problem" by a lot because typically he can ban FD, japes, or halberd or whatever he doesn't like in that matchup and not have to deal with another bad stage. I think green greens, onett, and pirate ship should at least be considered/experimented with in some places. yeah they're kind of gay but if you can allow norfair, japes, and rainbow cruise I don't see why those are any worse.

Red Arremer · Aug 12, 2009

etecoon said:
onett

It's fat, a penguin and has one syllable 3 times in its name.

etecoon · Aug 12, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bRiPDcgWIo

edit: I'd emphasize the words "reconsider" and "experiment", I'm not saying any banned stage should necessarily be legal, but that I think in some cases they were banned without really having adequate thought or data on it, and it does pertain to meta knight's dominance as only a few characters like snake or falco have more than one real CP on him(snake is arguable too, halberd is IMO the only stage where he isn't disadvantaged against MK)

Red Arremer · Aug 12, 2009

etecoon said:
edit: I'd emphasize the words "reconsider" and "experiment"

That's what we're doing right now.

Revanchist · Aug 12, 2009

Old Mocha said:
People are really starting to hate the SBR now. I'm rather shocked at this.

You're shocked? That the community is beginning to resent the group of elitists who spent the last week picking apart people's posts and saying "Oh look, this one has less than 30 posts, lets get out my noob goggles and see what its trying to say."

Peons, scrubs, whiney ****s who need to just quit life...

Yeah, I really wonder why so much of the community believes SBR is corrupt and just wants to get their money by keeping MK in. It is unfortunate that this debate has gone beyond MK and into the legitimacy of the top brass, but they could show a little more concern for the mid and lower levels.

choknater · Aug 12, 2009

revanchist those are all ad hominems

i know not all the sbr members are the smartest, but for the most part they are chosen cuz they know a lot about the game

Jim Morrison · Aug 12, 2009

Revanchist said:
You're shocked? That the community is beginning to resent the group of elitists who spent the last week picking apart people's posts and saying "Oh look, this one has less than 30 posts, lets get out my noob goggles and see what its trying to say."

Peons, scrubs, whiney ****s who need to just quit life...

Yeah, I really wonder why so much of the community believes SBR is corrupt and just wants to get their money by keeping MK in. It is unfortunate that this debate has gone beyond MK and into the legitimacy of the top brass, but they could show a little more concern for the mid and lower levels.

Lol you are ********, don't come at me with a silly "you dont even give reasoning for it!". I don't have it, this post is just ********.

etecoon · Aug 12, 2009

It is unfortunate that this debate has gone beyond MK and into the legitimacy of the top brass

This is only because people have to have someone to direct their temper tantrum at.

swordgard · Aug 12, 2009

djbrowny said:
like I said, pro-ban actually had more relevant information.

who cares about MK compared to SF, or any other fighting game. Its like making a change on a certain rule in a sport (lets say basketball) because the netball world changed a rule. the similarities between brawl as a competitive fighting game and any other game are just as limited. outside of having the same idea of damaging your opponent with attacks, thats about where the similarities end. smash is unique because of the massive effect counterpicking stages etc brings into it. Unless one of those other fighting games had a character who could simply choose a stage which would alter all matchups further in their favour, then you might be able to start comparing the two.

I just found all the anecdotal evidence of comparing smash to other, LEGITIMATE fighting games, not convincing at all.

You do realize that anti ban refuted alot of what was in the OP which had many errors and false truths, but noone answered most of our posts. Pro ban named tons of "theorically" broken stuff which was also full of errors.

You dont prove that something is broken in "theory", because that is implying that although it is not broken right now, it will be broken in the future. This is not why we ban characters. We ban characters because they force overcentralization. MK doesn't do this.

Comparing to other fighters is relevent as it allows us to compare our ban criteria to see if it makes sense, although it is not the end of it all argument. Counterpicking characters still exist in other fighting games. We also used the example of super smash bros 64, but then pro ban dismissed it cause it was too "different", once again. Pro ban has been avoiding avarice's, Spadefox and my argument for very long, yes their OP may "seem" better, but it was full of flaws.

choknater · Aug 12, 2009

swordgard ur a smart guy

overcentralization eh? sigh garchomp

imo mk does for a little centralization, but not too much. i guess all top tiers do that sometimes

Scipion121212 · Aug 12, 2009

all unmanly said:
Nothing was really lost

Counterpick system was lost. No one knows where is grave is, hated by mighty, yet loved by people.. Hanged as a vulgar bandit, with his organs being burned while he still lived.. Sad destiny of brave man.
But as mighty king told, "Victory is my destiny!".. Poor counterpick system, I will always remind him in tough situations. He shall still live in hearts of ours!

choknater · Aug 12, 2009

man i lost a snake vs mk on aib ladder yesterday haha, he IS pretty tough

oh well, i beat some other mk's with ic's yayuhz

but he didn't know the matchup at all >_<

Dark 3nergy · Aug 12, 2009

Spadefox said:
It's fat, a penguin and has one syllable 3 times in its name.

*ironically checks my name*

oh

Dark 3nergy · Aug 12, 2009

swordgard said:
You do realize that anti ban refuted alot of what was in the OP which had many errors and false truths, but noone answered most of our posts. Pro ban named tons of "theorically" broken stuff which was also full of errors.

You dont prove that something is broken in "theory", because that is implying that although it is not broken right now, it will be broken in the future. This is not why we ban characters. We ban characters because they force overcentralization. MK doesn't do this.

Comparing to other fighters is relevent as it allows us to compare our ban criteria to see if it makes sense, although it is not the end of it all argument. Counterpicking characters still exist in other fighting games. We also used the example of super smash bros 64, but then pro ban dismissed it cause it was too "different", once again. Pro ban has been avoiding avarice's, Spadefox and my argument for very long, yes their OP may "seem" better, but it was full of flaws.

thats why i try to stay away from playing the theory smash game. There are some things ppl talk about, i sit there and think to myself; "is that rly possible to do in a real match??" O_o

choknater · Aug 12, 2009

Spadefox said:
It's fat, a penguin and has one syllable 3 times in its name.

lol, i just got it. thats what i get for not reading previous pages D:

Browny · Aug 12, 2009

D.E. said:
thats why i try to stay away from playing the theory smash game. There are some things ppl talk about, i sit there and think to myself; "is that rly possible to do in a real match??" O_o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw

its real

Red Arremer · Aug 12, 2009

djbrowny said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw

its real

lol come on, that match is a joke

Kewkky · Aug 12, 2009

Spadefox said:
lol come on, that match is a joke

I know, whenever I see that match I laugh at how ******** it is. But it's still one of the better examples as to how MK can successfully camp and time out other characters in the game while they can do nothing but watch.

Red Arremer · Aug 12, 2009

You mean how MK can successfully camp and time out dapuffster while he can do nothing but watch.

Kewkky · Aug 12, 2009

Spadefox said:
You mean how MK can successfully camp and time out dapuffster while he can do nothing but watch.

Well, if you want to put it as it is shown, how Plank can successfully camp and time out dapuffster while he can do nothing but watch.

The point is that any MK can do it if they really wanted to. The fact they don't do it is personal choice, really. You can't ban Akuma either if all players in SF2 punch instead of air fireball or invincible kick, right? SF2 and Brawl are horrible comparisons, but the choice of players not doing an unfair tactic yet it still being there to use whenever you want to isn't. The fact that a player fell to one of these tactics that is supposedly easy to break (and a skilled player at that) doesn't worsen the fact that it is still a tactic that can be used, and WILL be used if necessary, and is difficult to get by without suffering much punishment.

And lucky for us, a few characters can get past that. But those characters have other problems then, like how ZSS can counter dair camping, she is vulnerable to planking. Then it becomes a matter of learning what characters can do to stop your stalling techniques, and changing from one to the other accordingly.

Just saying.

Red Arremer · Aug 12, 2009

I'm not even someone who knows Diddy in and out, but I'm pretty sure that there would've been options for dapuffster to actually do something.

The SBR official stance on Metaknight.

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