wowoduend
Smash Journeyman
Well he does have ADHD, so it's nothing special lol
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Ally: Snake is not the second best character. What?
- Thread starter DoonKoon
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Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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I think the second hardest MU for Marth is either DK or ROB, right now leaning toward ROB. Both MUs I would prefer more experience in, so I'm not going to go too much in depth. Snake is also a very good contender.
Falco's kill set-ups are amazing. At high percents, auto-canceled laser leads into grab and then 3+ pummels into a throw off stage for lasers and edgeguard. If you miss the Bair (which will kill), you can set up camping again. The grab is free because at 180ish, MK dies to dash attack and must shield, and he dies to Usmash at like 120ish. Falco's ftilt is also safe on block, and he can punish so many things with a boost Usmash which has amazing range. Utilt can also punish some mistakes and K.O., and Uair-> Bair air traps are deadly. If you opponent goes in front of you, then Uair-> Nair traps can lead into a comboed Utilt if there's a platform.
And at any given moment a good fsmash mindgame just killed you at 100%
There are 0 characters in the game Falco is forced to approach. As long as you decide when you want to kill your opponent, instead of letting the percent dictate for you, you should be good. As for safe kill moves? LOL. Who has that? MK's Fsmash is safe. So is Lucario's. That about ends the list, LOLOLOLOL. Oh, Marth has Nair. Alright, well, Falco's spaced Bair, or airborne aerials are pretty safe.
I mean, last time I checked, we got kills in this game by baiting and punishing, not hitting people's shields wrecklessly. Although at 180 I do like to gatling combo into people's shield a lot. Can't be shieldgrabbed, and both the DA and the Usmash will K.O. if you don't block both. Most people try to grab the DA on reaction to it hitting shield. Point blank DA is safe due to cross up.
Falco's kill set-ups are amazing. At high percents, auto-canceled laser leads into grab and then 3+ pummels into a throw off stage for lasers and edgeguard. If you miss the Bair (which will kill), you can set up camping again. The grab is free because at 180ish, MK dies to dash attack and must shield, and he dies to Usmash at like 120ish. Falco's ftilt is also safe on block, and he can punish so many things with a boost Usmash which has amazing range. Utilt can also punish some mistakes and K.O., and Uair-> Bair air traps are deadly. If you opponent goes in front of you, then Uair-> Nair traps can lead into a comboed Utilt if there's a platform.
And at any given moment a good fsmash mindgame just killed you at 100%
There are 0 characters in the game Falco is forced to approach. As long as you decide when you want to kill your opponent, instead of letting the percent dictate for you, you should be good. As for safe kill moves? LOL. Who has that? MK's Fsmash is safe. So is Lucario's. That about ends the list, LOLOLOLOL. Oh, Marth has Nair. Alright, well, Falco's spaced Bair, or airborne aerials are pretty safe.
I mean, last time I checked, we got kills in this game by baiting and punishing, not hitting people's shields wrecklessly. Although at 180 I do like to gatling combo into people's shield a lot. Can't be shieldgrabbed, and both the DA and the Usmash will K.O. if you don't block both. Most people try to grab the DA on reaction to it hitting shield. Point blank DA is safe due to cross up.
solecalibur
Smash Master
Lucas / Ness
See tyr or smash64
I've seen some smart pits that force the approach (more or less planking)
Sounds like sheik.... kinda.
Fthrow to edge guard works on paper but again (assuming good DI) against most of the cast it just isn't going to work out that easily. it's often times as simple as saving your jump.
Real kill set ups like sheik's jab combos into dsmash and nair or ftilt -> usmash are good kill set ups. Zelda's dtilt ->usmash/utilt. ZSS dsmash to bair. Bananas. Those are "amazing" kill set ups, true combos into kills.
Saying you force MK to sheild ever is wrong his has sh fair which would beat anydashing option you can throw out spare lazers.
That is very true but I'm still convinced these mind games should be happening frequently in the match against players experinced with the falco match up. Most of these mind games are very typical and easy to avoid.
thats not true... anyone who can duck under lazers or reflect them are pretty good at forcing an approach from falco.
And there are tons of characters with safe kill moves.
Kill throws are relatively safe, Kill moves like MK's dsmash, snake's utilt and ftilit, are all safe on sheild. Wolf's bair and fair, ZSS whip is safe against most of the cast. peach's fair. mario and bowsers fsmash are safe on sheild. Bowser's upB to edge grab, spaced aerial klaw, Zelda Fsmash, wario's waft, various SHnairs, etc.
And thats not including the safe pokes that combo directly into kills I mentioned earlier.
I don't think point blank dash attack is completely safe. but you are right falco's do get their kills, but when we are comparing to the rest of the cast killing is still one of his larger issues and when trying to get kills or worse, needing too, can cost you a lot of damage I don't see how falco is considered so high.
I keep bring up sheik, but thats the main why she is so low and even she has better kill ops than falco.
No. Marth vs ROB is pretty even-ish.
ROB is big, Marth's aerials(and the Side B) are huge problems for him, especially when Marth juggles. ROB can easily be juggled and Marth is a juggling machine. What balances this MU is ROB's camping game + his options to avoid opponent's approach, like Ftilt(when angled up, outrages Marth's Fair) + ROB's off stage options. It's not that hard for Marth IMO.
Mr. Game & Watch: Bucket and crouch.
4nace
Smash Ace
Falco is right out of the top 5 in the game imo. He is awesome on paper and should never lose to anyone really and never approach because his lasers rock so hard, but in actually competition, he gets gayed too easily to be considered top 5.
His recovery sucks and is predictable and can get you tons of damage just trying to get back to the stage vs a competent mk, wario or even diddy (lolz) Then comes his Firebird, which is completely useless so if you do get gimped slightly below the edge, consider it a lost stock. He can't be outcamped sure, but unless you are on FD, then there are going to be some problems with playing 100% campy in practice. Ice Climbers/Pikachu/Kirby all do very well against Falco, making him a nightmare if you don't play a secondary.
That being said, Lasers are pretty much the best projectile next to nanners, and he does rack up damage from 0-80 on the majority of the cast better than anyone else. A well placed Fsmash can kill as low as 75% on MK and Upsmash can kill around 120. He does have some problems killing but that doesn't matter too much if the Falco is patient and waits for kill opportunities (up tilt ftw!). Falco will always be pretty close to the top of the game, but I think he is at most 6-8 as he will never be the best in practice. People will learn how to make lasers less useful and Falco will stop seeing wins that aren't on FD or Jungle Japes.
His recovery sucks and is predictable and can get you tons of damage just trying to get back to the stage vs a competent mk, wario or even diddy (lolz) Then comes his Firebird, which is completely useless so if you do get gimped slightly below the edge, consider it a lost stock. He can't be outcamped sure, but unless you are on FD, then there are going to be some problems with playing 100% campy in practice. Ice Climbers/Pikachu/Kirby all do very well against Falco, making him a nightmare if you don't play a secondary.
That being said, Lasers are pretty much the best projectile next to nanners, and he does rack up damage from 0-80 on the majority of the cast better than anyone else. A well placed Fsmash can kill as low as 75% on MK and Upsmash can kill around 120. He does have some problems killing but that doesn't matter too much if the Falco is patient and waits for kill opportunities (up tilt ftw!). Falco will always be pretty close to the top of the game, but I think he is at most 6-8 as he will never be the best in practice. People will learn how to make lasers less useful and Falco will stop seeing wins that aren't on FD or Jungle Japes.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
GaW can't make Falco approach so his point still stands.
G&W can make Falco approach. When he(G&W) is on advantage, Falco needs to approach. When he's on disadvantage, G&W'll approach, but considering that this MU is one of the most difficult for Falco according to his Boards, G&W tends to be on advantage in most of the time.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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ROB has a guaranteed edgeguard with bair if Marth is above 50% and recovering from below the stage. Just his away from the ledge, bair, regrab. If you grab at teh right time, then bair right after, Marth's best scenario is hitting you against the stage and going straight out horizontallly.... and ROB just regrabs the edge. It's pretty lame for Marth. If he doesn't have his second jump, it is auto-death.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
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SH Nair/Bair OoS should punish that, depending on the character. I agree with everything else you said.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
To me, Marth's matchups in descending order look like this:
40:60 vs MK
40:60 vs ROB
40:60 vs D3
45:55 vs Snake
50:50 vs DK
55:45 vs Wolf
60:40 Falco
60:40 or better vs everyone else
40:60 vs MK
40:60 vs ROB
40:60 vs D3
45:55 vs Snake
50:50 vs DK
55:45 vs Wolf
60:40 Falco
60:40 or better vs everyone else
35:65 vs MK
45:55 vs D3
45:55 vs IC's
50:50 vs Falco
55:45 vs Snake
IMO
IC's I base mostly on what I've seen from others, I haven't played that MU from either side a substantial amount nor have I really spent much time even theorizing on it, so feel free to say I'm crazy <_<
45:55 vs D3
45:55 vs IC's
50:50 vs Falco
55:45 vs Snake
IMO
IC's I base mostly on what I've seen from others, I haven't played that MU from either side a substantial amount nor have I really spent much time even theorizing on it, so feel free to say I'm crazy <_<
Oh. If Marth players know that they can be edgeguarded, they'll try not to use their second jump. And that's exactly what I said, "...+ ROB's off stage options...".
Hmm, IMO G&W has the advantage. 55-45I agree with you that it's difficult to approach, but G&W does a good job in close range(Bair, Nair, Grabs...). Also, Falco can have a hard time killing G&W due to Bucket Brake(even using Usmash, the Bucket Brake helps a little).
But yeah, this MU can be considered as even ROB vs Marth, tending to a slight advantage for someone.
It can be 55-45 for ROB(although I think it can be 52-48 tending to 50-50), but 60-40 is too much.
xD
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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I fail to see how being able to avoid Falco's lasers automatically forces Falco to approach.
I also fail to see how a character that can SUPER EASILY force you to dodge and has a decent Usmash and a good Fsmash is considered having killing problems. IMO the reason Falco's have "killing problems" is because lasers force opponents to overshield. Wanna know a tip to kill with Falco? As I said before, Falco is very good at baiting, and his boost Usmash is excellent punish, and these are the ways to kill people early, or he can just use safe stuff until Utilt, Aerial, Mistake, Ftilt, or Dash Attack get him the kill. Falco is kinda like Sheik in that aspect, yes, but way better at it.
Snake's Utilt is indeed broken, but it's not safe on block. LOLOLOLOLOLOL @ people who think MK's Dsmash is safe in 2010.
OS apparently knows some MUs. Good stuff. Good thing I won't be fighting you with Marth if we ever do fight. ROBs Fair is also superior to Marth's in the head to head.
Juggling is a large part of the reason Marth wins against ROB and DK. Against R.O.B., DK, D3, and Snake, Marth uses the same strategy. "Screw trying to fight these heavy characters with stupid range and power. Weave your way inside, get them in the air, and juggle, or get them off stage and edgeguard to edge trap." The MUs are all pretty similar, but there are different nuances in each one of course.
I did forget ICs, but I'm not sure what the MU is, I just know it's tedious and requires over precision. MK is of course, the worst.
tl:dr
Falco doesn't really have problems killing IMO
Marth juggles and edgeguards characters it would be silly for him to try and fight on stage
ICs do pretty good against Marth
Marth goes virtually even with ROB, DK, Snake, IC, D3, Wolf
Please don't nitpick over 2/100 points, or even 5/100 points. No offense, but I HIGHLY DOUBT your understanding of the MU is that good. This is a statement to everyone, not one particular person.
I also fail to see how a character that can SUPER EASILY force you to dodge and has a decent Usmash and a good Fsmash is considered having killing problems. IMO the reason Falco's have "killing problems" is because lasers force opponents to overshield. Wanna know a tip to kill with Falco? As I said before, Falco is very good at baiting, and his boost Usmash is excellent punish, and these are the ways to kill people early, or he can just use safe stuff until Utilt, Aerial, Mistake, Ftilt, or Dash Attack get him the kill. Falco is kinda like Sheik in that aspect, yes, but way better at it.
Snake's Utilt is indeed broken, but it's not safe on block. LOLOLOLOLOLOL @ people who think MK's Dsmash is safe in 2010.
OS apparently knows some MUs. Good stuff. Good thing I won't be fighting you with Marth if we ever do fight. ROBs Fair is also superior to Marth's in the head to head.
Juggling is a large part of the reason Marth wins against ROB and DK. Against R.O.B., DK, D3, and Snake, Marth uses the same strategy. "Screw trying to fight these heavy characters with stupid range and power. Weave your way inside, get them in the air, and juggle, or get them off stage and edgeguard to edge trap." The MUs are all pretty similar, but there are different nuances in each one of course.
I did forget ICs, but I'm not sure what the MU is, I just know it's tedious and requires over precision. MK is of course, the worst.
tl:dr
Falco doesn't really have problems killing IMO
Marth juggles and edgeguards characters it would be silly for him to try and fight on stage
ICs do pretty good against Marth
Marth goes virtually even with ROB, DK, Snake, IC, D3, Wolf
Please don't nitpick over 2/100 points, or even 5/100 points. No offense, but I HIGHLY DOUBT your understanding of the MU is that good. This is a statement to everyone, not one particular person.
You understand what I mean utilt is very difficult to punish impossible for a lot of characters, same with dsmash. because of how much you slide away from the attack. Sheik can punish both with dash attack, but barely, what is wario going to do to a sheilded utilt or dsmash? you will very rarely end up in positions where you'll take high damage or a death from hitting sheild with either of those move.
Sheik at least goes even with marth I think... unless the marths I play aren't good. Needles and dash attack are huge in that match up as in punish wiffed fair/nair.
Hopping off sheik for a sec.
Sheik at least goes even with marth I think... unless the marths I play aren't good. Needles and dash attack are huge in that match up as in punish wiffed fair/nair.
Hopping off sheik for a sec.
ADHD
Smash Hero
He's sooooooooo ridiculously good from the moment you pick him.. You automatically have weight advantage, ground game advantage, and the ability to outcamp practically the entire cast except for maybe falco and pit. There's no doubt there's a large margine between him and the rest of the character cast. He's right up with mk in his own, cozy little spot. I sometimes question if he's better than metaknight. Snakes just don't choose the right options all the time.
Also the truth nobody seems to care about. His matchups are exactly like metaknight, all even or in his favor. DDD vs snake is even, I've seen this matchup so much to know DDD has no problem racking up damage but he suffers from not being able to kill snake, and falco is also even according to larry and other falcos.
Also the truth nobody seems to care about. His matchups are exactly like metaknight, all even or in his favor. DDD vs snake is even, I've seen this matchup so much to know DDD has no problem racking up damage but he suffers from not being able to kill snake, and falco is also even according to larry and other falcos.
Hey guys don't tell anybody... but I think Snake is better than MK. 100% serious.
ADHD
Smash Hero
I was.. distracted, check the edit. Seriously though.
while I don't think its by much I think MK is over hyped, people put him up on some untouchable pedestal when there a lot he can't do and a lot he is very vulnerable to.
Snake has granades. lives longer than MK, kills earlier and often times easier...
while I don't think its by much I think MK is over hyped, people put him up on some untouchable pedestal when there a lot he can't do and a lot he is very vulnerable to.
Snake has granades. lives longer than MK, kills earlier and often times easier...
TwentyTwo
Smash Ace
Kills earlier in terms of kill move vs kill move percentage yeah, but Snake gimps no one except like the bottom tier lol. MK can gimp just about anyone.
When half of your moves can kill at 110% gimping really isn't necessary.
And funny thing is most MK's suck at gimping or their opponents are good at avoiding it. It's not why people place well with him.
TwentyTwo
Smash Ace
That's a good point RH, but I didn't mean to imply that's the sole reason he is placing high at tournaments, I just wanted to give my opinion on what <3 said.
ADHD
Smash Hero
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I was one of the first people to suggest MK might be banworthy (well, more banworthy then snake)...
OMG, this is all my fault.
OMG, this is all my fault.
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