A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

Liquid Gen · Apr 17, 2009

Apparently Jigglypuff boards consider us their easiest matchup LOL

Btw Wolf gets owned by shields. gg.

PhantomX · Apr 17, 2009

Teching Wolf's and Sonic's dthrow is super fun.

Go to sleep Gen.

Halfway done with my paper, 4 pages to go!

B!squick · Apr 17, 2009

Jigglypuff? Really? Is this true MrEh? O.o

Liquid Gen · Apr 17, 2009

According to the post it's "7/3" Jiggly. I hope this is a joke.

Also Phantom I go to school soon maybi

B!squick · Apr 17, 2009

70/30? Crazy talk. No offence, but I think Bowser can handle a balloon.

Liquid Gen · Apr 17, 2009

8:2
Bowser (Pretty easy, not sure if he is 8:2 worthy though)
ICs (Y HELO THAR NANA K BAI)

7:3
Link (Easy to gimp)
Ganondorf (Easy to gimp)
Captain Falcon (Easy to gimp...)

8/2, I'm sorry.

Also Ike can **** you up majorly with jab jab jab jab jab jab cancels.

B!squick · Apr 17, 2009

Yeah, Ike Jab cancels are pretty sick. x_x

And I'm not that good with Bowser and I think I can take Jigglypuff. Upwards angled FTilt, UpTilt, and UpB should take care of... what, everything she has to offer?

Red Arremer · Apr 17, 2009

Liquid Gen said:
Also Ike can **** you up majorly with jab jab jab jab jab jab cancels.

Then don't let him get close enough to jab you. Bowser's spacing is superior to Ike's, Firebreath majorly ***** Ike, and let's not forget the Grab Release.

Also, lol @ Jigglypuff. :3
The only thing she pretty much has speaking for her is that she has no trouble pulling off Rest kills.

Blistering Speed · Apr 17, 2009

Let's not all forget about that fun new 0-60% CG. Ike's jab ***** and leads very well into grabs.

Cassius. · Apr 17, 2009

IMO Ike is a very fun MU for me. What everyone says is true, watch for his God Jab, and jab grabs and jab cancels. [Fortunately I live very close to a good Ike.] I REALLY disagree with it being 70-30 Ike's favor. Just space well and the Jab won't be THAT much of a problem. We have our jabs and tilts to keep Ike out, and the fire is just a ***** to him when recovering... I don't know...maybe 50-50, 45-55 or 55-45?

Red Arremer · Apr 17, 2009

Yes, but I still doubt it's 70:30 in Ike's favour. Hell, I even doubt it's in Ike's favour despite the CG.

itsthebigfoot · Apr 17, 2009

EnragedMathlete said:
Wolf needs to looked at again.

I might be biased since I play with choice all the time and he's definitely one of the better wolf players but the wolf matchup is definitely not 50-50. Have you been shine gimped? What do you do against the bair WOP? If you up+b oos his aerial speed and weight lets him follow you so he can grab you/punish out of lag. shield pressure? Also, the 12% dthrow + pummel + a great cross up game is pretty scary. Trading hits with wolf doesn't work well either since he racks of damage insanely fast. yeah...

have you ever been gimped by bowsers... anything really

or tormented by his clawhop (clawhop beats your bair in the air too)

if we upb oos its because you're going to be hit by it

also, pummel - dthrow is 13%, our pummel dthrow does the exact same damage and forces a tech chase, which is much better than your "crossup" since upb out of shield beats everything you could follow a dthrow up with

know the matchup before posting generic stuff that we already know about.

and never trade hits with bowser, if you're trading hits bowsers fat *** is winning since we'll live THAT much longer than you. also, bowser does more per hit than wolf

trading hits is a major uphill battle for wolf

also LOL @ jiggs

MrEh · Apr 17, 2009

Liquid Gen said:
According to the post it's "7/3" Jiggly. I hope this is a joke.

Also Phantom I go to school soon maybi

It's a joke.

The Jigglypuff boards actually list the matchup as even.

Nidtendofreak · Apr 17, 2009

My Main VS My Secondary (one of them that is) ^_^

I believe that the last time we went through this in the Ike match-up topic, we agreed on basically even. But that was before the 0-60% CG was confirmed. I've done it offline and had it work. Both characters gimp the heck out of each other, both can rack on damage quickly outside of grab stuff, both can flat out KO each other quickly. Bowser has more movement speed, Ike has more range, particularly disjointed attack range. Attack speed wise: Ike's Jab > Anything that isn't fortress, but in the grand picture of things I think Bowser has a slight edge, but not a big one if there is one. Bowser's 0-Death is very situational and fairly hard to pull off, Ike's CG can happen on any stage, and I believe any platform as long as he's facing the right way when it starts.

I know you Bowsers are probably tired of this number, but I think it's 6:4 Ike's advantage.

Liquid Gen · Apr 17, 2009

MrEh, I'm glad to hear that.

Also, 55/45 Ike. At the worst possible conditions.

MrEh · Apr 17, 2009

I've never seen the chaingrab work in an actual match, so idk. *shrugs*

I play pretty competent Ike players, but none of them have busted the chaingrab on me.

metroid1117 · Apr 17, 2009

The chaingrab has to be frame-perfect for it to work (repeatedly BThrow), so it's not a surprise that no one has used it a lot.

Not going to comment much on this (seeing as I haven't played a good Bowser offline before), but it's definitely not 70:30 in Ike's favor; it's much more even than that.

EnragedMathlete · Apr 17, 2009

@bigfoot, MrEh

I play bowser. I've actually asked you (bigfoot) for help on aim/played with you on wifi so I'm looking at this from bowser's perspective not wolf's. If you're sure that everything I am posting is generic then please post a video of you beating a competent(at your skill level) wolf that is up to date with his metagame. None of the videos in the video section fulfill that criteria. Theorycraft is great but empiric evidence in the form of videos is more helpful for me.

As for your claims...

"have you ever been gimped by bowsers... anything really"
Yes, bowser's fair and bair offstage are awesome but it's not that easy to gimp a good wolf. And we are assuming equal skill levels for this, right?

"or tormented by his clawhop (clawhop beats your bair in the air too)"
Clawhop is made of win. I agree. No argument here.

"also, pummel - dthrow is 13%, our pummel dthrow does the exact same damage and forces a tech chase, which is much better than your "crossup" since upb out of shield beats everything you could follow a dthrow up with"
Ok, but it's much easier for bowser to get grabbed than wolf (auto canceled aerials, smaller target, incredible air speed, etc). It's also easier for wolf to get rid of stale moves. If you up b then you risk getting shield grabbed, no?

"know the matchup before posting generic stuff that we already know about."
no comment.

"and never trade hits with bowser, if you're trading hits bowsers fat *** is winning since we'll live THAT much longer than you. also, bowser does more per hit than wolf"
Bowser does more per hit but wolf hits way more often than bowser. This isn't metaknight we're talking about. Wolf hits hard and often. Furthermore, his dsmash punishes very hard and kills pretty early.

I don't think we live that much longer according m2k's weight list.
170 ... 160 ... 165 ..... Bowser *
155 ... 152 ... 153.5 ... Wolf

I'm not saying you're wrong but if there's any matchup I am familiar with it's probably wolf. Frankly, I don't think that my post was generic so I'm not so sure what's up with your tone since you're usually cool on aim : /

B!squick · Apr 17, 2009

Yes, bowser's fair and bair offstage are awesome but it's not that easy to gimp a good wolf. And we are assuming equal skill levels for this, right?

Again, Bowser's Firebreath ***** the space animals, that's all the gimping you need.

Ok, but it's much easier for bowser to get grabbed than wolf (auto canceled aerials, smaller target, incredible air speed, etc). It's also easier for wolf to get rid of stale moves. If you up b then you risk getting shield grabbed, no?

Bowser may be a bigger target to grab, but he also has arguably one of the best grab ranges in the game, Olimar and tethers not withstanding. And if you're Fortressing at the right time, you will not be shield grabbed, no, especially not if Wolf is in the air.

Bowser does more per hit but wolf hits way more often than bowser. This isn't metaknight we're talking about. Wolf hits hard and often. Furthermore, his dsmash punishes very hard and kills pretty early.

It is vital that Wolf keeps that DSmash fresh and it would be a challenge since Bowser lives so long. This means Wolf has to tack on more damage than he's use to. Meaning that he has to fight Bowser longer. And in the war of attrition, Bowser has the edge. Surviving to 200%, while not the norm, isn't that hard for a Bowser player to accomplish with good and proper DI.

EnragedMathlete · Apr 18, 2009

JayDeath, firebreath does well against space animals but you have to be right at the edge and assume that he will recovery low. He could just recovery mid/high and illusion cancel/scar. I really don't think that fortress is a great option at low percents since like I said wolf can and will follow you in the air during his falling animation (punishing/grabbing during up B's lag will follow). UP+b solves many of bowser's problems but unless you ledge cancel it you will get punished. So far as I've seen none of the bowser vids show anyone ledge canceling their up+b's consistently. You will get grabbed if wolf is at low enough percents or if fortress is stale...

Bowser won't even live to 170 if he gets hit by a wolf dsmash at the anywhere near the edge. If the wolf is at your skill level and knows the matchup (which are basic assumptions of the matchup discussions) then being used to tacking on more damage won't be a problem. If he gets under you, then you will get juggled hard and take a lot of damage in the process. Also, bowser can always get gimped by the shine spike due to his so-so vertical recovery.

MrEh · Apr 18, 2009

Ike now. Not Wolf.

_clinton · Apr 18, 2009

Ike has the Fire, Bowser has the Fire...everyone wins!

choice_brawler · Apr 18, 2009

Sorry, know you guys want ike, but being the cause of wolf being recalled i figured i should say somethin. And also a lot of things you guys said about wolf just isnt true, lol.

JayDeth said:
Again, Bowser's Firebreath ***** the space animals, that's all the gimping you need.

Who was the last good space animal player that you gimped with firebreath? I play with EnragedMathlete/Ein really often and i dont ever get gimped by firebreath. I'll get hit by it from time to time off stage, but it never leads to a death. Wolf's UpB goes right through it if you end up in it somehow after sidebing. Wolf is not easy to gimp.

And if you're Fortressing at the right time, you will not be shield grabbed, no, especially not if Wolf is in the air.

Wolf is heavy, your fortress sends him nowhere at low %'s. Even if its fresh i'll get a bair off at least. Worst case scenario is i charge my fsmash a bit or DACUS. But yea, at least a lazor or somethin if Wolf is not sent flying.

It is vital that Wolf keeps that DSmash fresh and it would be a challenge since Bowser lives so long. This means Wolf has to tack on more damage than he's use to. Meaning that he has to fight Bowser longer. And in the war of attrition, Bowser has the edge. Surviving to 200%, while not the norm, isn't that hard for a Bowser player to accomplish with good and proper DI.

Wolf has so many kill options, dsmash is just his best one. Fair, Bair, Usmash and shine spikes all work fantastically. Its pretty easy to shine spike bowser actually if he tries to recover low. I'm not even talking really low too, like around as low as wolf can go to still recover with his side b. The whole shine spike stuff is totally new, cast0rpollux aka JJ wolf introduced it to me and yea after messing around with it there are several variations that work against bowser. The basic one is: Jump off stage, shine, jump shine, up b or side b (usually for other characters the up b is necessary since you have to shine them lower down, but side b works fine for bowser) edgehog.

EDIT:
This all should have been targetted at me since it seems to have been addressed to a wolf player

itsthebigfoot said:
have you ever been gimped by bowsers... anything really

Yea i've been gimped by bowser, usually needs to be a bair or fair though. I don't see many other options for gimping that bowser has that work against wolf. Sure you can edgehog, but so can everyone, and that doesnt really get rid of wolf. I feel like edgehogging wolf lets him decide whether he should land on stage or go for the edge easier. I actually feel like bowser gives wolf a hard time when wolf's on the edge but thats not related to gimping at all.

or tormented by his clawhop (clawhop beats your bair in the air too)

yea claw does beat bair.

if we upb oos its because you're going to be hit by it

doesn't mean i cant punish that like i said in response to jaydeth

also, pummel - dthrow is 13%, our pummel dthrow does the exact same damage and forces a tech chase, which is much better than your "crossup" since upb out of shield beats everything you could follow a dthrow up with

crossups, just like street fighter? you know just going from one side of your opponent to the next. Also those were supposed to be 2 different things i think. Like ok, wolf has some decent grab set ups. full jump bair onto a platform allows a grab if they were hit, i do find myself grabbing bowser a lot in my matches. And a lot of the time i am punished with up b's when i try to, im just a grabby person, thats just me. So yea wolf's grab game and crossup game do pose a problem. Being behind bowser is nice cuz you guys normally up b oos and wolf's jab clanks with that, lol.

know the matchup before posting generic stuff that we already know about.

seriously i dont think there is any bowser that knows this match up better.

and never trade hits with bowser, if you're trading hits bowsers fat *** is winning since we'll live THAT much longer than you. also, bowser does more per hit than wolf

trading hits is a major uphill battle for wolf

ein already responded to this. wolf isnt that much lighter.

MrEh · Apr 18, 2009

There's a time and place for us to re discuss Wolf, but that time is not now.

Ike.

B!squick · Apr 18, 2009

Right, Ike.

Uhhhh... He has more range and more lag. Also that fabled CG, which, the way I heard it, only works at 0%. So as long as Ike doesn't grab you right off the bat, it's 'kay. So, uh, just tough it out, knock him off stage and Firebreath to damage/interupt recovery. That's all I can think of.

Nidtendofreak · Apr 18, 2009

JayDeth said:
Right, Ike.

Uhhhh... He has more range and more lag. Also that fabled CG, which, the way I heard it, only works at 0%. So as long as Ike doesn't grab you right off the bat, it's 'kay. So, uh, just tough it out, knock him off stage and Firebreath to damage/interupt recovery. That's all I can think of.

Ask Kirk about if you can start it pass 0%. He's the Ike with access to Debug Menu and does the testing....if you can find him when he's on that is. All I know is that he did not say you have to start from 0% in order for it to work.

B!squick · Apr 18, 2009

Really? I thought he did. Like, because the knockback got to be too much at higher precents which is why it only worked up to a certain amount in the first place.

Red Arremer · Apr 19, 2009

If desired, I can try to make the matchup chart new. I'm kinda okay with graphics (I suppose). I will, though, make it slightly different, because I have no blank of the chart. ^^
(and miss the font Mmac has used)

MrEh · Apr 19, 2009

I'll probably remake the chart in the future, so don't worry about it.

Red Arremer · Apr 19, 2009

Okay, then, just threw it out there. ^^

Nidtendofreak · Apr 19, 2009

JayDeth said:
Really? I thought he did. Like, because the knockback got to be too much at higher precents which is why it only worked up to a certain amount in the first place.

I'm fairly sure the growth/decay of Bthrow is too weak to make much of a difference until around 48% (when we have to hit you with Dash attack to get the 60% mark), but like I said I don't know, Kirk would.

Darknid · Apr 19, 2009

Even with the CG I doubt it's in Ike's advantage. You outrange him where it counts, in your fast attacks. You can space him well, everything except maybe fair will be ***** by your OOS options. Also, if you can PS the Fair that's a free dashgrab, then CG him. He's got more power, but you've got more weight. Bowser has great kill power as well so it kind of evens out. Abuse flame breath at long range and there isn't much he can do. If you get close he will jab the **** out of you, I wouldn't try to mess with it with anything but fortress.

B!squick · Apr 19, 2009

Ike out ranges Bowser though in, like, every way except Firebreath. >.>

Darknid · Apr 19, 2009

With what, though? Consider that. His only moves that come out at a reasonable speed are his jabs and bair, and you can space the jabs. Just stay in the area where his jabs won't hit you and chances are you will hit him before he hits you. Sure his F tilt, smashes etc. outrange you but they aren't fast enough to beat your jabs or F tilt/D tilt. His fair is easy to see coming and to hit you with the bair you have to be closer than you should be.

Phiddlesticks · Apr 19, 2009

Ike's superior range against Bowser is effective, just like how Bowser's superior range against, say, Sheik is effective. I don't think Ike has a big advantage; it's probably like 55-45, whatever.

B!squick · Apr 19, 2009

Yeah, this goes right back to the Sheik discussion, but only the other way. Shiek is faster than Bowser (kur-duh), but has to be closer to actually hit him. Bowser is faster than Ike, but has to be closer to hit him. A major difference though is that Bowser has less to aim at against Ike, or anyone for that matter. Ike also has the greatest spot dodge for a heavy weight from what I heard. Well, him and R.O.B anyway.

EnragedMathlete · Apr 21, 2009

Ike can buffer a jab out of spot dodge, which will probably lead to a world of pain for bowser if he gets hit by it...

Ike's fair has iasa frames, no? are we sure that we can grab ike if he hits or shield?

Bowser should be able to klaw hop effectively since Ike can't spam any projectiles. I feel like bowser has the mobility to do well in this matchup (and a cg to death???) but ike can reliably rack up damage on us(jab cancel, jab game in general, and the cg) and he has kill moves. Ike on battlefield is such a nightmare matchup. His uair covers the whole platform... and it will probably still hit you in the air if you air dodge. but yeah 50-50?

B!squick · Apr 21, 2009

Right, but we have the Klaw Drop now, so platforms are amazing.

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 21, 2009

Pikachu is currently discussing bowser. Please contribute.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230892

Vex Kasrani · Apr 21, 2009

JayDeth said:
Ike also has the greatest spot dodge for a heavy weight from what I heard. Well, him and R.O.B anyway.

ROB and DDD

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