Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

clowsui said:

LOL improper usage

metagame is just the collection of strategies and tactics associated with a specific character at a point in time/a period of time

Click to expand...

So how would that be improper usage? Unless i actually have to say sheiks strategies and tactics are on par with being able to beat MK. I see no mistake.

yeah, that's what i was looking for actually XD;

clowsui said:

yeah, that's what i was looking for actually XD;

Click to expand...

Ok now i gotcha .

Meta game= a noun not a verb


BTW... WTH re we re-discussing this? I already tried to put an end to this argument. Why did you have to go and restart it?
This debate will go no where until we have tourney results.

Sorry everyone, I was really busy for the past week.

We will now be moving on to Samus.

Discuss!!

Hmmmmmmm maybe light would like to give us insights on this MU since he plays Xyro???

Needles don't cancel fully charged shots anymore .

Gimping Samus is REALLY hard in my experiences. On the other hand, Samus is very good at gimping. She has her zair (which is VERY long) and her spike to screw up our recoveries.

Samus= slow up close

In this case the saying "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" is very true.
When you aren't close take advantage of Sheiks many spacing options to approach.

i havnt played light in a very very very long time. ill play him this weekend at hobo 19 and he can help with the match-up

sheik beasts on samus all dai

just watch out samus has some good aerials

ahhh

needles all dai

i'd imagine samus should be jumping around with like maybe dairs and homing missles and zairs a lot

i'd imagine i'd play this matchup like i play against G&W

roll needles son

you can pro run under that traditional sh zair. or power shield it. kinda like Zsam's over B.

don't under estimate her up close. jab and ftilt are good, she has decent kill options in down tilt. Her projectiles shouldn't be causing you issues because you are needles... I mean you have needles.

yea samus is pretty good close range

if u played melee u kno her tilts are legit cuz they are pretty much the same in brawl. utilt has huge range lols just block it though, dont be too aggressive cuz her tilts can kinda sorta match ur speed cuz samus has range

just roll needles guys

samus' projectile game in brawl is ehhhhh, okay, its her zairs that will make ur roll needle game a little tough but hey, zair does wat, like 4 damage? no biggie. u can block while u are charging needles anyway

metaknight, wario, gw, now samus... roll needles are too legit, guys

actually.........

i dont roll that much, sorry, i say roll too much

what u wanna do is hit samus, be safe, charge needles, then do running away b-reverse needles (more likely to hit than rolling and needles cuz its way more unexpected)

aggressive game is still really legit against samus though

double jab and ftilt and fair pressure

get at me

It would hardly represent the match-up, but any Sheik main like to wifi with me?

get at me

I'll post about the Samus v Sheik match-up later (wont' base it off wifi, I side Sheik with Samus)

EDIT: Okay. Had one friendly with Saviorslegacy. Lag was teribad. I get better connection with Xyro, who's in Texas, than SL in Ohio apparently.

Hm...I have some limited matchup experience, but enough to say that it's in Shiek's favor.

Shiek gets Ftilt/Utilt into stupid stuff. Her dash gives her plenty of options for catching Samus off guard with an aerial, and her boost smash can be hard for Samus to work around. Only thing I can say for Samus is that Shiek will have a hard time getting safely back to the ground from the middle of a big stage. Also, don't underestimate the number of options that a well-placed projectile can take away from you.

Sheik v. Samus

Long-Range
If you're a good needle camper, Sheik wins. Samus's camp game revolves around short hopping, and missiles do no good when Sheik can needle cancel into shield while racking up free 2-18% damage. This is of course assuming the match is played on flat terrain. If it's angled, then it's within Sheik's best interest to not needle camp. But that could be said with every match-up for Sheik.

Mid-Range
Samus wins. There is still significant lag time when needle canceling on the ground, thus we're more than willing to trade the 4/7% z-air and knock off Sheik's silly needle game. Our f-tilt outranges your f-tilt and our d-tilt comes out in 6 frames (Sheik's f-tilt comes out in 5, jab in 2, I know, but when d-tilt does 14% fresh damage in that short frames with a fairly big disjointed hitbox, not to mention at low percentages, with Sheik being lightweight and a fast faller meaning easy follow-up options for Samus... it's not something to look over.)

Sheik cannot emphasize on shield dashing enough when approaching Samus. Once Samus gets into z-air range, Sheik has to switch from passive (needle camping) to aggressive methods, or else Samus just racks up damage. If the Samus gets too predictable, DACUS underneath the z-air/missile cancel for some damage. If you get too predictable, Samus will chain all sorts of shanningans from z-airs and missile cancels that it's not even funny.

Close-Range
Sheik wins (crowd roars for Sheik.) F-tilt locks are disrupted by our n-air though, and because Samus is floaty, it's very easy to avoid the lock. Therefore, it would probably be best to not rely on it and rather finish up with u-tilt/n-air/f-air. Another important mention is the jab 1--> jab 2-->d-smash kill set-up will not work until very very high percentages. The hitstun doesn't last long enough, and Samus, floaty as she is, can jump out of range from the d-smash.

Other important facts... Samus's pivot grab is beastly. If you get too caught up in your aggressive ground game, expect the Samus to retreat and grab you. (Directed to you Light. Watch out for this when you face Xyro at HOBO.) Otherwise, most aerial approaches Samus has close range (d-air, maybe the occasional sh ff u-air->up+b) are beat out through shield grabbing and OoS n-air. Cool fact to mention, if Samus approaches with d-air and you shield, you may be able to pull the chain out for a good 5% or more, given that you predict the buffered spot dodge. (I'm just telling you guys how to beat Samus, lol.) If we buffer a jab instead, your shield grab *****. RPS anyone?

Also, lol at rolling. Don't. Backside of Samus's d-smash easily set-ups for a follow-up f-air at low percentages, z-air at high percentages. Not to mention it does decent damage and has good shield stun/knockback.

Air
Actually, I'm going to call this even. Both characters suck if they find themselves on top. Sheik's fast fall helps mitigate any follow-up issues from Samus, but f-air's hitboxes last a while, so a well-read air-dodge spells **** for Sheik. Or, Samus can dash grab/pivot grab your landing if you've exhausted your second jump. Likewise, Samus's floatiness is a curse, but bombs and going for the ledge lower Sheik's options for following up as well.

Ledge-game
Samus beats Sheik. Especially on stages like BF and SV. At the same time, roles reversed and Sheik is recovering, Samus's u-tilt has rather deceptive range and power, easily a kill move at 110% if hit in the air. Xyro doesn't use bombs as far as I'm aware when edge-guarding, but most other Samus mains will. This, on top of u-tilts start-up time, will almost cover all of Sheik's invincibility frames. Almost. Switch up your recovery from the ledge (as a good player, you should be doing this anyway) and you should be fine. For the non-bomb users, they'll try to intercept with n-air/d-air.

Recovery
You're going to get gimped if your not intelligent. End of story. Samus chases you, or tether hogs you and you're leveled with the stage, you're done. If you have to vanish onto the stage and fail to cancel landing lag, Samus's b-air from the ledge knocks you off and starts the process all over again. When momentum canceling, be wary of whether you absolutely need to use that second jump to cancel the horizontal knockback, or if your FF'ed aerial does enough. That second jump can make all the difference.

Overall
60:40 Sheik's favor.
Passive-Aggressive style recommended. Be cautious when recovering, and try not to compete with Samus's ledge game. Close up and good reads win you the match.

*Even though numerically, with everything I listed, Samus has more advantages than Sheik, also realize the majority of the MU will be played in your advantage zone. (long-range/close-range) In other words, give different amounts of weights toward them and Sheik still has a significant advantage.*

FD is a great CP against Samus. BF, things can go even. RC is an okay CP, but that depends on whether or not the Samus is comfortable on that stage tbh.

GL to you Light. I want a replay of the set you guys play please.

I play more offline than online. Only people I've ever played online are Samus mains... and one match with Saviors. In other words, against characters I use just so I can get a different perspective on playing them. Otherwise, lag-fi is epic fail. ..

With that said, the decay factor for Sheik loses its value extensively versus floaty characters. As far as long range go, you're underestimating how exceedingly annoying needles are to Samus's spam game. B-reverse a missile gets Samus to hit the ground still. The second you jump off the ground, if you're not planning to approach with z-air, you're going to get hit by needles when you land. You can't air dodge back once Sheik has charged up three. Needle camping ftw.

Sheik is "bloody fast." But I find more so often Sheik wins because people don't know the match-up. Whereas players don't DI an AAA combo and gain a ridiculous 12-20%. Or people can't properly DI out of f-tilt locks (excluding some obvious MUs), meaning Sheik mains can continue f-tilts before ending with u-tilt/n-air/f-air/etc. The fact is, if the Sheik main was truly able to chain an u-smash to their f-tilt, their opponent doesn't know the match-up (again, certain MUs excluded.) For example, Lucario/Sheik is clearly 60:40 in his favor. He certainly can't spam AS in this match-up, but because he can avoid most of Sheik's attack strings (especially with his d-air), along with priority and kill power if Sheik's don't end it, things get messy.

Transfer that over Samus, Samus still has good hitboxes in this match-up, simply because none of Sheik's hitboxes are disjointed (we're not counting chain.) In fact, in general her close up game is decent. And n-air is an epic combo breaker. It's only when Samus mains compare them to MK/Marth's priority, or Snake's disjointed crap, or Wario's aerial mobility or Falco's grab game, that Samus pales in comparision. The only thing Samus really lacks is a decent kill move, which is alleviated by both Sheik's weight and recovery. So no, I don't see it as 65-35. 60-40, right at that. It's still a significant ratio in favor of Sheik mind you. But she doesn't destroy Samus. Marth destroys Samus. Not Sheik.

I personally think Sheik has potential for B, perhaps low A tier. But it's when people are unfamiliar of facing speed that matches MK that they struggle and lose... it merely means they lack experience in that particular MU.

EDIT: Concerning Dash attack OoS... Samus aerials all auto-cancel. Grab OoS, because there is ridiculous lag to Sheik's dash attack. I don't see any reasonable use of Sheik's dash attack in this match-up. Z-air spaces just enough that you naturally perfect shield it, and any closer and Sheik's f-tilt is a better OoS option. It's not as if we're going to approach Sheik with f-air... and land in front of them. Dash attack is a Marth/MK spacing punisher, not a Samus punisher.

Before i play light this weekend to make a final call on sheik, im gonna go ahead and say its 60-40 in sheiks favor.

NO-IDea said:

and one match with Saviors.

Click to expand...

OMG that way annoying.
That match reminded me why I quit wi-fi for the most part! >.<

I agree with everything except I think you look down on Sheik approaching options.
We do lose at mid range but thing is we don't stay in mod range. We bring it up close.
I alted Samus once and I have to agree that Zair is like extremely epic, but we can power shield approach because it is so slow and easy to predict (I'm calling the whole action of SH> Zair slow).

Yeah, 60 : 40 Sheik sounds good to me.

Can Samus hit a ducking Sheik with the full range of her Zair?

i do do not believe she can...

someone made a thread about all the moves sheik can duck and i know some zair was on their but i'm only 97% sure it was both

saviorslegacy said:

OMG that way annoying.
That match reminded me why I quit wi-fi for the most part! >.<

Click to expand...

Indeed. Wi-fi sucks.

saviorslegacy said:

I agree with everything except I think you look down on Sheik approaching options.
We do lose at mid range but thing is we don't stay in mod range. We bring it up close.
I alted Samus once and I have to agree that Zair is like extremely epic, but we can power shield approach because it is so slow and easy to predict (I'm calling the whole action of SH> Zair slow).

Click to expand...

NO-IDea said:

Sheik cannot emphasize on shield dashing enough when approaching Samus.

Click to expand...

No match ever stays at a certain range. And yes, z-air is easily power shielded. So no, Sheik's approach options aren't bad. Samus has to avoid a linear gameplay and constantly switch between z-airs and missle cancel-> follow-ups or it gets predictable.

And even then, Sheik powershields all day. (Ideally. In reality, because humans make mistakes, the occasional combo from Samus finds its way in from change of tempo.)

Yeah, 60 : 40 Sheik sounds good to me.

Click to expand...

I guess we'll wait on Xyro v. Light for final results. Save the replay please :3

Xyro77 said:

Before i play light this weekend to make a final call on sheik, im gonna go ahead and say its 60-40 in sheiks favor.

Click to expand...

I won't be at hobo this weekend, I need money for a trip to new york i'm taking the weekend after hobo.

My ideas on this matchup. I'd say 60/40 or 65-35 sheik.

Things i potentially disagree with in previous posts, Sheik isn't so difficult to sit at midrange with, at least for a limited time. What i do against retro who is actually a decent samus as far as projectile cross-ups go, is slowly approach to mid range with shield dashes, which power shields the projectiles/zair. Then once i get close i just pay attention to what his character starts to do, if it looks like he will go to grab I will jump, if he jumps i'll get up near him and nair etc.

Long range, needle camping isn't as effective as you would think in preventing samus projectiles, i'd rather be close to mid range and use needles in the middle of "combos"

side note, unless its a perfectly spaced zair, sheik can duck under it, giving her yet another option for crossing up samus and getting close.

Ledge guardian samus, is actually not that bad. I generally just sit a bout a roll length away from the ledge. If your good like xyro, which alot of samus' might not really be, then they can do zair through the stage and hit your feet, but all you have to do is jump or shield with it angled down because it will hit your toes. If they do anything else, generally just short hopping near the ledge, avoid a ledge attack if you think they will do it, then following that you get a free aerial pretty much no matter what if you have decent timing and are patient. Then you get to do it again if they arn't dead.

In situations reversed, sheik has about the same options as samus, though she has better aerials and no zair, though chaining the ledge is faster than samus' zair grab. I'd say ledge guarding completely depends on the patience and skill of both players, fairly even.

I love fighting samus on FD and BF, though BF can sometimes get gay because of samus' grounded upB can be annoying, but that's what SDI is for.

Xyro you and I can debate the matchup sometime in person if you want and play a bunch of friendlies to try to prove it. Since were both considered top players for our characters in the area, it should be fun, but sorry not this weekend =/

I Hate You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but i <3 you xyro your tournaments are too good, also your samus is sexy like the chick in my avatar

she is sexy, Unknown, you say it could be 60-40 but re-read your post, after that what options do we have? pretty sure your jab can hit us after our first jab and before our second one comes out if you mash A like your life depended on it.

yeah, its pretty hard for samus, but she does have some options, so its definately not un-winnable, and if i get too aggressive and chase off stage at the wrong moments, i can easily lose a stock

that's true, don't mess with samus offstage, it generally goes downhill for the other person.
tilts are key here I guess and OoS UpB maybe, nd z air, no SH's for us or we get murdered.
AKA we all have to play physical, but if we do it wrong we are screwed, I'd go with ledge camping ^^ as our best option

yeah that's what Retro usually does, but then i just do that ledge guard strategy i detailed, and it doesn't turn out well for him

Xyro77 said:

I Hate You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Click to expand...

Uhhh.... that is a very scarey pic.
WTH is that thing anyways!?

Unkn0wN said:

but i <3 you xyro your tournaments are too good, also your samus is sexy like the chick in my avatar

Click to expand...

Speaking of which... who is your avy?

misa from death note cosplay

I think samus has the advantage at long range. Don't get me wrong needles are great and i think they are in the top 5 best non-item projectiles in the game but Samus has quite a few options. Firstly when people jump it does make it easier to land needles and i get a lot of dmg in this way but I wouldn't say that everytime they jump is a free needlestorm. If they are paying attention and dont waste their second jump they can try and bait your needles and then its more of a guessing game. Also if they do jump a second time in an attempt to bait needles they are floaty and can go for the ledge plus Samus can use some stalls to throw off your timing. Lastly if they expect you to needle storm and they have a charge blast they can fire low to the ground and i think charge blast beats needles. Plus samus can really kick out the spam more than u can.

^^^^ this = truth

Eh.

So what if they bait your needle storm. The point is needles are fast, and if you miss, you can't be punished. If they are coming into z-air range, you'd needle cancel into shield, or roll, and stop camping. If they're long range, who gives a crap if you miss.

Needles are akin to Falco's lasers/Pit's arrows in that it stops Samus spam at long range. They are fast, far, and practically unpunishable aside from a reflector. No, needles do not come out as often. And perhaps they can only hit Samus when she's low to the ground.

But Samus trying to fight Sheik outside if z-air range is fail. Play a Samus on FD, her on one side, Sheik on another, and camp for the lolz. Samus - z-air = *****. I define long range as the zone outside of z-air range. Perhaps that was unclear. (In general, zoning for Samus is different, since her z-air has amazing range and her tilts are really long for not being disjointed.)

Judo777 said:

Plus samus can really kick out the spam more than u can.

Click to expand...

It's not quantity that matters, it's quality. Link/TLink can dish out more spam than Samus can. But her z-air ***** every projectile option they have. Enough said.

Another example, Olimar beats Samus altogether, mid range and long range. He's only got one type of projectile. And he can't even fire it constantly (he has to change up tempo or he runs out of 6 pikmin.) Samus can dish out more spam than Olimar. And yet... 2 Pikmin stacking alone on Samus dishes a great deal of damage for a projectile, not to mention Pikmin **** charge shot and missiles.

Also, needles go through Charge Shot. Unless you're suffering from ending lag of from firing needles, no reason you should be getting hit by Charge Shot at long range.

EDIT: It's funny how a Samus main is arguing how good Sheik is against Samus projectile game, and Sheik mains are arguing otherwise. Are you that afraid of Samus's spam game?

You overestimate Samus's spam game. In some MUs, Samus can't even rely on missiles (besides use for follow-ups.)

I'm not scared of samus's spam game, i'm just saying sheik can't punish from long range as well as you say we can =]

Needles are not nearly as safe as you think and they do have quite a bit of lag. Yes they are very fast infact i think the fastest projectile in the game as far as movement speed. However missing a needle storm may not mean you get punished but it means you cant easily pressure samus with needles again until you recharge. Samus will gladly trade a single needle for a chage blast if he sees it coming. Samus' ability to spam makes it just as hard for us to charge as it does for her with the exception of aerial charging which is somewhat unsafe. And needles can not hassel near as well as falcos lasers lol those things never stop. And spam does make a huge difference sheiks give snake trouble because we can throw needles so much faster than he can prep grenades its the concept of we cant prep or attack as much if we are constantly defending. As Joseph Stalin said "quantity is a quality all its own"

charge beam >>> than needles.

Judo777 said:

As Joseph Stalin said "quantity is a quality all its own"

Click to expand...

That sounds awfully anti-capitalistic. lol

Anyway, I agree to some extent. However, you only need one needle to disrupt Snake's grenade cooking. Just as well, you only need one needle to disrupt Samus's spam. The hitstun is very significant, greatly messing up Samus's tempo, and even if one needle only does 1-3% damage, it's damage and it's free.

Yes, Falco shoots a crap load more. (pun) But, even if he didn't, it only takes one laser to screw Samus up. Sheik can shoot needles just as fast as Pit can shoot arrows. And both can easily change the tempo of their fire. And both projectiles have hitstun, albeit small, but it does the job of stopping Samus.

When Samus is in the air, you charge, When she's on the ground, you have the option to shoot one or charge more. I rarely see Sheik mains charging all the way. Rather, they always switch it up, (1, 2, 4, they're fast and annoying all the same.) Especially the annoying fully charged needle storm... and then that one needle afterwards.

Almost every Sheik main shoots that one needle. Why? Because no matter the outcome, it's safe. Whether or not it connects doesn't matter. It's +0, or +1. Never negative.

I've already acknowledged the significant lag time to ground needle canceling. It's why you stop when Samus gets into z-air range. At that point, shield, or like chok said, roll (lol, it works in that scenario.) Otherwise, at long range, all of Samus's projectiles telegraph themselves and provide ample time for you to shield.

unless you predicted wrong and at mid range samus traded with needle damage for a charge beam.

that said it shouldn't happen often. if samus is charging you are giving her too much breathing room. you can bait charge beam just as easily as she can bait your needles. except watch the start up for charge beam is way easier...

It can happen though if you aren't looking out. Charge beam for needles even fully charged is a trade I'd take all day. espeacially in that match up.