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Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

HeroMystic

HeroMystic

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F-air when he doesn't have a banana (chances are he'll go for a dash attack to pick up one), N-air when he does have one so you can powershield.
 
Kirk

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Staying off the ground doesn't mean you have to be using an aerial. The main point is to not be on the same level as Diddy...you wouldn't want to be staying on the ground and having to shield...waiting for him to throw a naner at you.

HeroMystic has a nice point too, Nair would be the better option over Fair in most cases.

I also tended to short hop air dodge more than usual when playing the matchup on Saturday...you can catch the bananas or dodge them completely with proper timing.
 
metroid1117

metroid1117

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NinjaLink said:
Just to add Ike has an AMAZING boost toss.
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You're talking about this, right? I was confused when I read it at first, I thought you were talking about his glide toss. But yeah, this looks amazing; thanks for putting that out there and making me look up what it meant.*

*Not being sarcastic by the way, I'm being honest.
 
YagamiLight

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Kirk said:
You bumped a sticky.

That's too pro, Kinzer. :D

Nothing more for Diddy Kong? Or shall we proceed to the next character?
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It appears there isn't much more to say on the subject of Diddy Kong.

Would you like to pick the next character, Kirk?
 
Rykoshet

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The summary for ICs will be "They think they have 70:30 on you but your jab hits them both, you actually can grab them because your pummel will slap and interrupt the second climber, and the second you send the main climber anywhere by itself, the second one is going to get fsmashed, making the match hilariously in your favor. In reality it's 60:40 ike, just dont get 0-deathed."
 
Kirk

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Lol ryko...

That was basically the result of a short conversation we had about the matchup last night.

Regardless, I'd like to hear from IC mains...though of course if you want we can always do another character...like Samus or Sonic.
 
Rykoshet

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More in depth, you will be rolling/poking/running/dodging/jumping away a lot. Your goal is to separate the 2 and you have the range and the shield push/autocanceling options to do it. As mentioned, you actually can grab them as long as you throw a pummel immediately to interrupt whatever the other climber may do to interrupt you. Back/forward throw exclusively, back throw if you stunned the second climber with a pummel so that your act of throwing the main one away causes the second climber to walk after them, then immediately fsmash the ever living flying dog **** out of it. Theyre light, an fsmash anywhere over 16 will flat out kill a climber on most stages, anything over 25 is guaranteed. If you do this, you're now ike versus a single climber, and if you manage to lose this matchup then chances are you're pretty much a lost cause. You have range on them, you can zone them rather well, and their projectile game is laughable as it carries along the floor or is close range, and their goal is to get their mitts on you anyway. Retreat fairs, nairs, bairs, and box a lot.

As for stages, you want slants, walls, platforms. Anything to disrupt the flow of grabs should they get one off. You're looking at yoshi's and lylat for neutral options with battlefield being a distant third. For counters you have pokemon stadium, delfino, brinstar, castle siege, and a few others. Play the stage and a lot of keepaway if you need to but being able to tech a spike is big.
 
ignore the fire

ignore the fire

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I just played Kirk at a recent tourney and he beat my ICs. Crouch cancelled jabs ****. Reverse aethers ****. That flingy thing on Pirate Ship ***** Nana's ******** AI (*sigh*). The only thing ICs really have that's ranged are ice blocks (which I'm pretty sure can be stopped by jabs) and blizzards.

This matchup is interesting because an error on either side will almost always result in a stock loss. Any hit from Ike will most likely separate the ICs, allowing you to destroy Nana, while an error in spacing could result in the ICs getting a grab. Keep in mind, though, that if the Climbers aren't together, getting grabbed means nothing, so as long as you keep them separated and off the edge, their grab game is nothing.

Seriously though, crouch cancelled jabs ****.
 
Arturito_Burrito

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Rykoshet said:
True, I forgot about RC and norfair >_>
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you kind of messed up on the neutrals too seeing as they vary from area to area. In texas PS1 is usually the 5th starter instead of lylat. A lot of times we have 7 starters though which actually makes it possible to strike FD smashville and BF leaving you with pretty much counter pick stages.


Pirate ship also has slants and tilts a bit like lylat XD.

are ICs good under platforms or no?
 
HeroMystic

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This battle is more of what Ike can do to the Ice Climbers rather than what Ice Climbers can do to Ike. Basically, in any match where Ice Climbers can't easily grab, they're more or less at a disadvantage, simply because the 0-death is the biggest thing about them. While Blizzard and Ice Blocks are all fine and dandy, it's usually not enough if Ice Climbers can't get that grab in.

In which case, it's pretty hard to grab Ike, especially since the Ice Climbers have a pretty bad grab range. While Ike's moves doesn't necessarily separate the both of them, they do in fact, usually always hit both of them, which is good enough. It's retardedly easy to knock Nanna off the stage too.

This is one fight where the Ice Climbers have to play it safe and try to create openings. Ike's advantage definitely, but not too much, probably 60:40.
 
Kage Me

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Even if they can't get the grab in, Ike in particular suffers heavily from their d-tilt. It's a better kill move than u-smash and f-smash in this match-up. Not to mention that it's fast and has somewhat decent range.

Essentially, this match-up is a defensive one for the Ice Climbers, though. Grabbing aggresively will only get them b-aired if the Ike player knows anything about spacing. Ice Shot is very decent with Ike's speed being what it is, and a desynched wall of Blizzard can do wonders for damage racking due to Ike's weight (not to mention that a tippered Blizzard from Nana can lead to a grab with Popo). In this match-up, they have to play defensively and with a lot of hit-and-run, until they get Ike high enough to KO him. Ike, contrarily, needs to play aggresively and get them away. Grabs can be safely disregarded here, as they are oppurtunities rather than goals.

I'd say this match-up is about 45-55 in Ike's favour.
 
Rykoshet

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Ike, contrarily, needs to play aggresively and get them away.
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If the person is playing defensive, it would be in ike's interest to let them stay that way and not fall into a trap by being aggressive, actually. Approach with spaced bairs and feinted nairs/fairs if necessary to provoke a reaction but don't actually go in after them until you've landed a hand on one of them.
 
Kinzer

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Kage Me said:
Even if they can't get the grab in, Ike in particular suffers heavily from their d-tilt. It's a better kill move than u-smash and f-smash in this match-up.

Essentially, this match-up is a defensive one for the Ice Climbers, though. Grabbing aggresively will only get them b-aired if the Ike player knows anything about spacing. Ice Shot is very decent with Ike's speed being what it is, and a desynched wall of Blizzard can do wonders for damage racking due to Ike's weight (not to mention that a tippered Blizzard from Nana can lead to a grab with Popo). In this match-up, they have to play defensively and with a lot of hit-and-run, until they get Ike high enough to KO him. Ike, contrarily, needs to play aggresively and get them away. Grabs can be safely disregarded here, as they are oppurtunities rather than goals.

I'd say this match-up is about 45-55 in Ike's favour.
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Unless you mean the ICs using DTilt at the edge to send Ike at that low angle, then no... it DOESN'T have the range and spamibility to even prove a real problem. This isn't Sonic where a D-Tilt owns him, this is Ike with the longest Fair in the game, let alone a lot of range on most of his attacks. To be honest, I went in and tested DTilts range... compared to Ike's FTilt, it almost doubles in range...

I think you mean Faired, it has much more range and is safer to use on IC's compared to Bair... Ike can just stay in the air and JAB teh ice-blocks out of the way, again your giving too much credit... I won't bother going into desynced Blizzards seeing as how you're mostly right, I can let another person take care of that. Ike always plays aggresively anyway...

I would say 60-40 just because Ike (or rather anybody who knows about the CGs) isn't going to be falling for them, especially not Ike with his monstrous range who can just stay far enough away to not get grabbed, not to mention (for once...) Ike has more CP stages to take ICs than teh other way around (because anything that isn't remotely flat should do okay). You're free to convince me otherwise when you don't blow things out of proportion.
 
T

Taylor

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Ike's fair often trades with Blizzard. That's not good for the ICs. Combine that with Ike's range, plus neutral A spammability, and you've got a huge shortage of approach options. Seriously, Ike can outrange all of IC's attacks. It's not pretty.

I'd say the only thing ICs have going for them in this particular matchup is iceblocks and a great air game against defensive playstyles.
 
Palpi

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MysticKenji said:
I've had Ike's ftilt trade hits with Blizzard before.
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Me too. Blizzard hopping or aerial blizzard is probably the best of choices for IC's concerning approach. Some how you gotta either hit trade or get over it or get grabbed. I sometimes feel like i need to tech chase with a guarenteed QD (i know..lol) or the tip of dash attack just to separate nana and popo. Nana = downs when shes not with popo. Ofcourse a failed dash attack could result in getting grabbed, but if it is the very tip i think you can roll away before IC's dash grab gets you.
 
Kage Me

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Kinzer said:
Unless you mean the ICs using DTilt at the edge to send Ike at that low angle, then no... it DOESN'T have the range and spamibility to even prove a real problem. This isn't Sonic where a D-Tilt owns him, this is Ike with the longest Fair in the game, let alone a lot of range on most of his attacks. To be honest, I went in and tested DTilts range... compared to Ike's FTilt, it almost doubles in range...
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That is what I meant, yeah.
 
YagamiLight

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Don't worry Kinzer, I still like you. (no homo)

To be fair actually, I think I like pretty much all of you. (Once again, no homo)
 
Arturito_Burrito

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I nit pick everything you make everyone look bad. We've been trough this already yagami got pretty mad one time.

But no seriously I'd say Ike is defensive most of the time, Bair walls, retreating Fairs, retreating QDs, shielding from MKs lag less attacks for 5 minutes at a time. Jab combos to punish moves with a bit of lag.

What's going for him on the offense? Fsmash?

edit: hero is on to something maybe if the sonic boards where as kool as the mario mains it would be a different story but you guys aren't.
 
Locuan

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Sorry for the big delay, (yes very big delay), still I read the Luigi matchup analysis and it seems pretty straight forward.

couple of things though:

-Dair>Nair (In Luigi's case) Is not a very reliable string for Luigi to use, seeming as you can easily shield grab Luigi.

If Ike spaces incorrectly, his user has to watch out for the jab>grab which can set up to other strings if one is not careful enough.

Random fun fact:

Luigi's dsmash hitbox goes out in frame 5 of the animation and if I'm not mistaken just as fast as MK's dsmash animation :dizzy:.

Well again sorry for the delay.

EDIT: Guilhe asked me to read and comment on the matchup analysis he made a while back.
 
YagamiLight

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Yeah, I'm keeping this open until we get more input.

People generally don't admit Ike beats them without arguing.

Look at the Ganon board, for example, they have a 65-35 / 70-30 match-up down as 50-50. WHAT THE ****? Ike beats Ganon in every category of the game, yet it's somehow equal?

*headdesk*
 
Ussi

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Ganon has more damaging moves. Ganon's uair is mighty good. Ganon has a stronger spike.

Ganon's one dair equals Ike's jab > jab > jab combo

We don't beat Ganon in every single category. And Light perhaps you're underestimating Ganon. I won't say since I never actually met a Ganon main in person. But I am inclined to say in Ike's favor 6-4 minimal.
 
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