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Learn the right way to use your controller

JFox

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
5,310
Location
Under a dark swarm
I've wanted to make this topic for so long, cuz its sooo important. I find that one of the biggest things that held me back was bad habits, some of which were because of how I use my controller.

Note that these are just the BEST way to do things, not the only way. I highly recommend them for people that are looking to get into the competitive scene. By using these recommendations, you will be doing things faster, more accurately, and with less errors than you would if you did them any other way. Also note that many pros/past pro players have done things differently, but most will agree that they were doing them that way because it was just a bad habit. They were still talented and smart enough to be at that level, but they could have played better had they used the controller differently, even if it would only make a small difference. Anyways, lets begin.


Lets start with the jump button. Many will tell you "use whichever you feel most comfortable with" and I will tell you now to ignore that advice. I recommend always using Y ONLY. I can tell you that as a person who uses X to jump, that I wish someone told me this long ago. Y is closer to the B button, allowing your finger to press it without having to slide over the A button, causing you to put in an improper move at times. Using X makes it virtually impossible to do multishines, makes many other techniques very difficult (like fox's SHDL), and most importantly CAUSES MORE ERRORS.


Next, the L and R buttons. You can use either one you feel most comfortable with, so long as you use the OPPOSITE one for wavedashing. Trust me, its important. Yes, you CAN wavedash out of shield with the same trigger, but it takes almost no effort if you are using two different triggers. The goal is to make things easiest on your fingers so that you have less technical errors, which limits your abilities.

Next: This on is very important. The C stick. Use it for everything you can, basically. All smash attacks (even charged ones) should be done with the C stick. The fastest way to do it is with the cstick, otherwise you get a small charge on your smashes using A. To charge smashes with the C stick you use the Z button.

Also use C sticks for ALMOST all aerial attacks. This may take some getting used to, but its important. It allows for more control over your DI while giving you the ability to attack. It is also easier to do many SH aerials such as SH Uair by using the C stick. The only time you don't use it is if you are doing an aerial immediately from your jump which you must perform quickly (such as marth's double fairs perhaps) because the a button is closer to jump. Not using the C stick for aerials is a VERY bad decision, and everyone I know including myself has forced themselves to make the switch. Its annoying, but worth it.

Another use of the C stick- All rolls and sidesteps. This is important, and often overlooked. By using the C stick, you can do something called "buffer rolls" which allows you to just hold shield, plus a direction, and the game will immediately do the roll the very first frame it is possible. This technique is useful for things like getting out of IC's chaingrab, and just executing commands as frame perfect as possible. You can also buffer spot dodge, and buffer jumps, using up or down + R/L.

It is important that you use the C stick for ALL rolls or sidesteps. (Courtesy of Forward) - Using the control stick to roll moves your shield, which exposes your characters body, leaving you open for a short period of time before the roll. If you've ever been hit while you were trying to roll away, this is why. The C stick eliminates this problem.


Lastly- Grabs. Most characters, excluding some (like Peach and Sheik), benefit from JC grabs. I recommend always using JC grabs while you are running. Use Y to jump, and then Z to grab. Now while standing is different. Have you ever put up a light shield instead of grabbing, even though you hit Z to grab? This is because you pressed Z too early (before the end of some for of stun or lag) causing the Z (which is a stupid macro button for many other moves) to think you wanted to shield. Now you are stuck in a light shield that you can't grab out of. Instead use L/R + A. Just hold L/R, and press A. If you hit A too soon, its ok. Just press it again. This is very helpful for standing chaingrabs.


Thats all I can think of for now. If anyone has any comments, or wants to add any input, please feel free to post.
 

Doomgaze

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
195
Location
Sweden, Stockholm
I jump with X, wavedash and shield with R and JC with Up.
I really should get out of these habits, but it would feel very awkward to switch now.. I just wish someone
told me sooner.

Nonetheless, a great post!
 

cykofox

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
760
Location
Burbank, IL
I use the A button to perform turnaround jc shine bairs with fox, and to perform knees with Captain Falcon. Is this wrong?

BTW: J Fox you appear very knowledgeable and I want to see you play. Do you have any videos of your matches?
 

Rat

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
1,870
Location
Chicago
Could you (or someone) go into the various ways of hold a controller and the benefits?

Like the claw or the double claw or whatever it's called?
 

JFox

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
5,310
Location
Under a dark swarm
I jump with X, wavedash and shield with R and JC with Up.
I really should get out of these habits, but it would feel very awkward to switch now.. I just wish someone
told me sooner.

Nonetheless, a great post!
Honestly, I jump with X too, and I wish I didn't. Its not the worst thing, but it doesn't hurt my performance. Now that I learned to SH and my muscle memory is so good, its just too hard to switch.

I feel the same way as you, I wish I had someone tell me all of this BEFORE I got into these habits. Thats why I made the thread. Some habits are worth changing, and do make a big big difference in your game. Others you may have to accept. I do recommend that new players get started the right way though, so they won't say any of these things down the road.

I use the A button to perform turnaround jc shine bairs with fox, and to perform knees with Captain Falcon. Is this wrong?

BTW: J Fox you appear very knowledgeable and I want to see you play. Do you have any videos of your matches?
I recommend you learn to do both. For rising aerials, like a quick SH knee, I will use A if I need to be fast. But for most of my knees, I use the C stick cuz then I am free to DI with the control stick. My best advice is learn to do both, and than let you decide what is best. But don't be lazy, its def not gonna help you if ur lazy.

Could you (or someone) go into the various ways of hold a controller and the benefits?

Like the claw or the double claw or whatever it's called?
I don't know if I am best for this question but I will try. To those who don't know, the claw is when you use your pointer to jump, leaving your thumb free to press other buttons.

I know that Mew2King uses the claw for a few of his tactics. He actually uses the X button to jump, which is why he had to develop the claw, because X is just too far to do many of the things he wanted to do (especially with Fox). If he had just used Y, he probably wouldn't need to use the claw at all, or at least less. He uses it rather infrequently. Its mostly for him to do rising aerials, pillars or multishines.

I think if you use Y, its really unnecessary to claw, IMO. Very few people can claw because it requires that u get used to technical things like SH'ing with your pointer finger. Its very uncomfortable, but does give you more control. Honestly though, the most technical of players don't claw, and they do incredible things. I don't feel that its worth the time. Just use Y.

BTW, I don't know what the double claw is. And a few people I know use their thumb and pointer on the control stick. People call this "arcade style". Its another option, but it doesn't seem to give you more or less control. People that use this just say it feels most natural to them. I wouldn't try it though, its nothing important.
 

R3N0

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
1,899
Jfox a lil bored? lol :)

great post though.. (and dont tell anyone but this is probably the first time i've ventured out of the atlantic north thread.. minus when i troll around sheik forums every once in a while lol)

ANYWAY.

I use X to jump, Y + R to wavedash, R cancel, (sometimes L with falco.. dunno why..) C stick for most aerials except sheik fair.. which i use forward and a because i can do a rising fair, which is beast. I do the fair and immediately smack the control stick the other way to di away.

yeha im mad weird. i <3 c stick for aerials.. i used to do it with the A button and i couldn't move around so fast.. now im fast as lightnin! ... yea i suck though
=/
 

slartibartfast42

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
1,490
Location
Canton, Ohio
Are there any drawbacks to using up on the control stick to jc grabs? I like doing that because it feels natural and I don't use the control stick to jump at all, so whenever I hit up my muscle memory knows to press Z.
 

Overload

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
1,531
Location
RI
Getting into the habit of using C sticked aerials isn't too hard. I got used to it in about a day, and the benefits were noticeable.
 

Heart Break Kid

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Messages
1,461
Location
Maplewood,NJ
Lol, your like the new age emblem lord, except you dnt only help with Marth. You know SOOO much about the game but as far as skill goes.....thats a different story. :)

Nah jk Jfox is beast. Alot of this stuff is helpful. I do almost everything the wrong way which is why I cnt play a technical character like fox as well as my main Marth. My fox really only helps me beat one specific person at tournies...

Lol i cnt shine turnaround bair, SHDL, or multishine. I jus uthrow uair, but Jfox is so pro at freaking smash DI it doesnt matter when i play him

Edit- someone i know also uses up on the control stick to JC. and it doesnt really affect him at all. Its what hes used to...
 

R3N0

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
1,899
hardy har har hbk =/

drawbacks to using the "up + Z"
doing an upair if not timed correctly. . missing the JC grab and remain DI'ing up into an upsmash outta shield by fox...

the whole thing with not using the control stick to do stuff is so you have the option to DI any way you wish.
 

Da Shuffla

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
1,810
I use Y for multishines but X for shuffles. I use X so I don't accidentally graze any buttons while I'm on the way to the C-stick. Also, I use the control stick for jumping with Uthrow> Uair with Fox. I can tap up on the control stick twice faster than I can get from X or Y to the C-stick. And I JC my shines with the control stick, it's faster. I'm just saying some buttons work better than others in certain situations. Still, though, great post.
 

BananaHammock

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 6, 2006
Messages
247
I use Y for multishines but X for shuffles. I use X so I don't accidentally graze any buttons while I'm on the way to the C-stick. Also, I use the control stick for jumping with Uthrow> Uair with Fox. I can tap up on the control stick twice faster than I can get from X or Y to the C-stick. And I JC my shines with the control stick, it's faster. I'm just saying some buttons work better than others in certain situations. Still, though, great post.
How do you do JC shines by using up on the control stick? That means you have to go up and all the way back down on the stick when you could just hold down on the stick and hit Y then B quickly. I don't see how it's faster your way.
 

Ðesh•

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
52
i dont know if someone else brought this up cuz tldr,
but you should mention boost grabbing too, although its not great for everyone, it is for sheik, and its AMAZING for sheik, sheik should probably boost grab instead of jc in most situations, especiially when doing cg's and tech chasing because it allows you to be a little slow reacting to techs and stuff, boost grab ftw (for sheik)
 

slartibartfast42

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
1,490
Location
Canton, Ohio
drawbacks to using the "up + Z"
doing an upair if not timed correctly. . missing the JC grab and remain DI'ing up into an upsmash outta shield by fox...

the whole thing with not using the control stick to do stuff is so you have the option to DI any way you wish.
You do a nair if you time it with a button incorrectly. And I never mess up JC grabs like that. I really don't see a drawback, so I'll keep using up on the control stick + Z.
 

N64

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 18, 2004
Messages
2,158
Location
Stalking Skler
I use the stick to jump. And it's probably what has held me back the most.

Even more than maining a terrible character.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
Really, this seems less like a post for more experienced players and more for those who are just entering the competitive scene. Anyone who's played competitively for a while has already built these habits, so for the most part they wont be broken. The only habit i managed to get out of was trying to use a jump button for shine combos with Falco(Control stick is preferable here) and learning to use the Control Stick for SHDL with Fox(even retreating SHDL. Its not the best method, but I use X to jump so its definitely better)

One thing I want to note is that when learning to WD out of shield, rather than attempting to relearn wavedashing with the L button I just learned to shield with either button.
 

Da Shuffla

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
1,810
How do you do JC shines by using up on the control stick? That means you have to go up and all the way back down on the stick when you could just hold down on the stick and hit Y then B quickly. I don't see how it's faster your way.
I jump out of shines with the control stick. Not for multi-shining. Shine>jump out. For multiple shines I use Y>B.
 

JFox

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
5,310
Location
Under a dark swarm
N64- Thanks for the post. It addressed a question that I was unable to answer. DON'T use up on the control stick. You heard it here- this poor guy is held back simply cuz of an error in his technique. What a shame :(

I'll add this to my first post.

Pink Reaper is correct. This thread is more for people entering the scene/people that feel they need to make some adjustments. I'm not here to tell the community to change things, just telling them to consider the best way.

So yes, up on the control stick is SLIGHTLY worse because you can end up DI'ing wrong, but does it make that big a difference that its worth the trouble to change? I'll let you be the judge of that. Same goes for a lot of things.

Oh and I don't recommend using up on the control stick for multishines. Theres a lot less control, you wear down your control stick like this, and its kinda a short cut that makes you less consistent in the long run. Most people that do many many multishines consistently with good control will use Y and B.

Oh and thanks to everyone for leaving comments. :)
 

Brainjack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
279
yea i've been trying to switch from R to L for shielding but man it's tough.....

i'm trying cuz of like you said, wding out of shield but also i think it's easier to jc usmash with y than with control stick
 

JrdnS

Smash Ace
Joined
May 25, 2008
Messages
543
Location
Jax.Florida
i do everything the way jfox mentioned except i dont use the l trigger at all. i use r for shield, wavedashing, and l cancelling. i really wish i wouldve started out using l too. when i play i can tell where itd be alot more effective to use l instead of r.
 

Corigames

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
5,817
Location
Tempe, AZ
you will be doing things faster, more accurately, and with less errors than you would if you did them any other way. Also note that many pros/past pro players have done things differently, but most will agree that they were doing them that way because it was just a bad habit. They were still talented and smart enough to be at that level, but they could have played better had they used the controller differently, even if it would only make a small difference. Anyways, lets begin.

Don't use up on the control stick for jumping either. Its hard to get used to SH's this way, and I've been told it causes you yo make more mistakes. Also it inhibits your ability to DI.

Thats all I can think of for now. If anyone has any comments, or wants to add any input, please feel free to post.
I have a problem with this. I have been using the control stick to jump ever since I started. When I got into competitive play, I was told roughly what you said on the subject. So, I relearned how to jump and move around. When I went to fight though, I found that I wasn't doing B attacks from jumping as fast as I was when I used the control stick. And, being a Samus player, I find that to be quite important. So I switched back and it's much easier to do that.

True for everyone? Probably not. But I just want to say that because it's generally recommended doesn't naturally make it, "faster, more accurately, and with less errors than you would if you did them any other way."
 

JFox

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
5,310
Location
Under a dark swarm
True, you have a valid point. I will remove it from the first post. Like I said, I don't know since I don't use the control stick for jump, and I'm going off here-say on this one.

I guess my stance on the topic is that I see Up as having its good and bad points. I will mention a bit of both, and perhaps just say that maybe its best people learn a little of both, since they both have good situational use.

Thanks coreygames.
 

Banks

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
5,861
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Maine (NSG)
Using the cstick for aerials benefits you when you want to approach with bair or do retreating fair, but wouldnt the attack come out much faster when you swipe your finger over y and a as opposed to going all the way down to the cstick ...>_>
 

JFox

Smash Hero
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Oct 25, 2005
Messages
5,310
Location
Under a dark swarm
Yes, it will. And I said this. And I quote "The only time you don't use it is if you are doing an aerial immediately from your jump which you must perform quickly (such as marth's double fairs perhaps) because the a button is closer to jump." In other words, use A for rising aerials.
 

Stratocaster

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
672
Location
Knoxville, TN
I got 2x as good at Falcon after forcing myself to use the c-stick to do my shffl'd uairs. I'd always do a full hop or double jump or something when I went to press up. Its worth the distance from Y to the c-stick, and really its not as far as you may think. Since then I've started using my c-stick for even more aerials. It helps so you can adjust your DI just perfectly to land that knee or retreat with bair... or edgeguard with dair without fastfalling...
in fact, using c-stick aerials is better for all your aerials most of the time, except nair. Which you can use A or Z, I usually use A for that one, but Z is better for something like marth's nair, where if you use it fast enough then you can get zero lag. Or if you just like it better. The only thing I don't do on this list is I use R for shield and wavedashing, but I never have problems with that.
 

slartibartfast42

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
1,490
Location
Canton, Ohio
Wait, can I DI wrong if I use up to JC? I thought if you DI'd the same way you were hit, nothing happened? And then if they hit me horizontally, I DI the right way. It doesn't matter since I just flick the stick up very quickly and don't keep it up. It's good for making sure I can do whatever I need to with the stick if I whiff.
 

Zodiac

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
3,557
That was pretty good advice Id say, although, making really small movements is another huge part of using the controller right, big clicking movements only waste time. Make them only as long as they need to be, precise dont what to see if you input the right combonation or not on screen, just have faith that you can do it(Assuming you've practiced) and then go to the next action.
 

soap

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
7,229
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
wavedashing out of shield with both triggers really messed me up, i get confused which button im pressing, and it throws your hands out of balance. u can do it with one very consistently, i find it much easier that way.

i now use a grip where my right hand is open and over z and i dont use R at all, i feel like one button gives u quicker reactions for unexpected techs and powershielding and just keeps your hands balanced, there is no spring loaded trigger u have to use on your right hand and this loosens up the grip on your right hand and makes it easier to do stuff

also, up on the stick + cstick for full hop retreating marth fairs are amazing.

cstick rolling took me a while to get used too but its VERY useful, i still sidestep with L+down, though, L + cstick down feels weird.

i was ocd about this stuff a couple years ago
 

Ja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
351
Location
Greenville, SC. Hit me up for melee
Could you (or someone) go into the various ways of hold a controller and the benefits?

Like the claw or the double claw or whatever it's called?
Not really sure what the double claw is, but I claw. My pointer finger is always on Y and then my thumb defaults to C-stick, but also presses B and A.

Advantages:
  • SHing becomes easier b/c fingers have more control than thumbs.
  • It gives you VERY precise aerial control. This makes Marth's sh double fair easier, and shield stabbing easier. With CF I can shield stab the head of a normal sized character almost 100% of the time by jumping and immediately kneeing.
  • It increases your tech skill in every area. I got a friend to claw, and he was able to do 7 multishines after I told him the description. He had never multishined or waveshined before, but he knew how to WD. It will also make SHDL much easier.

Disadvantages:
  • Somewhat painful. It didn't stop hurting until after about a month of using it.
  • Makes hitting the R trigger a little awkard. This means you will probably need to use L to powershield.
  • I have to change my grip to JC grab. This feels the most natural way to do it, and doesn't bother me, but changing your grip is a disadvantage.

I started clawing, because I have terrible tech skill, and now I find most techs pretty easy (except moonwalking).
 

soap

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
7,229
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
clawing makes some very difficult things easy to do, but makes some very important basic things like JC grabs or simply shorthopping a chore.

if u use Y to jump and have decently quick fingers u dont need claw at all
 

Ja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
351
Location
Greenville, SC. Hit me up for melee
clawing makes some very difficult things easy to do, but makes some very important basic things like JC grabs or simply shorthopping a chore.

if u use Y to jump and have decently quick fingers u dont need claw at all
How does it make shorthopping "a chore"? It's the same motion press Y lightly, except you are using a finger instead of a thumb. Finger's also have more control than thumbs. If anything it's easier.
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
I use X and B to multishine, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. (Yes, with Fox) and I have a record of about 30.

There's nothing practical I can't really do. Immediate aerials? I use Z for that. I can SHDL with the control stick. I can even do running SHDLs.
 

JFox

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
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Location
Under a dark swarm
I'm proud of you Tee at eye, you did something i could not. But tell me something, if you could go back and do it all over again, would you still choose X? Isn't there a CLEAR disadvantage using X, in that you have to slide over the A button?

You might just have fast fingers, but I know personally that I've tried to do multishines with X and find it almost impossible with Fox. With Falco I can do 2 before I mess up. It also took me forever to get down SHDL, and I still can't do it perfectly without screwing up most of the time.

Oh and I'd like to say thank you to Ryzol for his contribution to the thread. Very insightful. I like the list of advantages and disadvantages.

Keep it up guys
 

Fletch

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Messages
3,046
Location
Shablagoo!!
I use the stick to jump. And it's probably what has held me back the most.

Even more than maining a terrible character.
There's really nothing wrong with using the stick, so long as you don't use it for things like short-hops and wavedashing. Coreygames hit it on the head, it can help get some B-moves out faster and definitely has it's uses. I learned to jump using Y, and still use the stick quite a bit for certain things as it helps with speed.

But @OP, great topic, I really wish someone taught me to use both triggers early, that has by far hurt my game the most as it's a huge pain in the *** to WD out of shield with one trigger.

Maybe you should put something up about using the "Claw" on the controller? In all honesty, it's probably the best way to play if you can adjust to it early.
 
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