Who is ness's worst matchup?

GildedPunch · Jul 19, 2007

Well, today I was just playing some casuals with my older bro who mains falcon.

We played 4 games and I didn't win any of them.

So it got me to think and I remember reading somewhere that CF is one of ness's worst matchups. Is this true?

My brother has never been to a tourney, i've been to 3, and he's never played anyone better than me or him.

He's never played anyone else who play with advanced techniques.

Is it me? I get a whole lot of compliments about my ness at a lot of tourneys but I can't even beat my brother who's never had any other expierience except me.

PLEASE HELP!

Rapid_Assassin · Jul 19, 2007

Captain Falcon isn't that bad... Try playing against Sheik, Marth, or Jigglypuff

Jigglymaster · Jul 19, 2007

Well I find it eayier for me to do the yo yo glitch on Falcon and Ganon, then again I don't play Ness much so to me falcon is an easy match up.

GildedPunch · Jul 19, 2007

jiggs doesn't seem that bad to me.......
hermmmmmmmmm .....
yeah, i can get a yyg pretty easily on him.

mood4food77 · Jul 19, 2007

sheik, marth, jiggs, ganon

indie_dave · Jul 19, 2007

floating peach zeppelins that are hungry for pkthunder >:O
nothx u isn't a pokefloats, peach meanie jerk butts

and jiggly is an awwwwwwful matchup for ness. DO NOT ENGAGE IN AERIAL COMBAT, which is ness' area normally, unless you're feeling heroic or soemthing.

idk ness seems to not be able to handle chicks, liek a true prepubescent child (peach, jiggs, sh33x even zeldas--sparklyfairbair with non stubby limbs HURT--, and sam00s) maybe it's just me, i teh awkward loser around womenz

i'm gonna go ahead and say allllllll tops and high tiers. it's sad but true, look up umbreon mow's posts in the "fo' serious tier discussion" thread. i link laters, gtg

Jigglymaster · Jul 19, 2007

For the last time Jigglypuff is a species not a women! The Jigglypuff population is 25% Male and 75% Female. Just because it looks girly dosn't mean it a female. >_>

And yes Jiggly will pwn Ness, also seeing that Jigglypuff can fly better in this game can just kick ness off the edge untill Ness can't get back up with his crappy b up recovery.

toasty · Jul 19, 2007

I know how to beat Jigglypuff if you choose Ness.
Here's what I do anyway:
I pick Ness...they pick Jigglypuff...and then right before we choose a stage.......I hit B...and then choose Pikachu.
><

GildedPunch · Jul 19, 2007

toasty said:
I know how to beat Jigglypuff if you choose Ness.
Here's what I do anyway:
I pick Ness...they pick Jigglypuff...and then right before we choose a stage.......I hit B...and then choose Pikachu.
><

"Nice prank Bro! "
- Human Giant.

huh.
I haven't played jiggly that much. Maybe that's why.......
I HATE FALCON!!

Jigglymaster · Jul 19, 2007

toasty said:
I know how to beat Jigglypuff if you choose Ness.
Here's what I do anyway:
I pick Ness...they pick Jigglypuff...and then right before we choose a stage.......I hit B...and then choose Pikachu.
><

What I do to beat a Pikachu, press b to switch to Doc so I can chain throw you. And if I somehow lose I'll counter pick with mutecity.

Thats how I beat raptorhawks pikachu,

1st Match: Mario vs Pika on DL winner Pika
2nd Match: Jiggs vs Pika on Mute City winner Jiggs
3rd Match: Jiggs vs Pika on Poke Floats winner Jiggs

BTW I think were totaly getting off the Ness subject.

So do you know he beat Gigyas? The allmighty idiot whos own power crushed is own mind.

But he still isn't good enought to be the almighty Jigglypuff, who out pirotitizes all his moves. Ness has no way of killing Puff, his meteor smash won't work, his b air can be easily out prioritized, his yo yo moves suck, and its hard to do the yo yo glitch on sombody who flys 90% of the time. The only killing move I see for Ness is his bat, and I don't see how a Jigglypuff will fall for an attack like that.

thesage · Jul 19, 2007

Mow said somewhere a way to combo jigglypuff to death... hmmmm...

I personally think Shiek, Marth, and a offensive Peach (non-turnip spamming) are my hardest matchups. The thing that kills me with jiggs is her edgeguarding, but it's definetely not as bad as most people think (the matchup).

Ademisk · Jul 19, 2007

I still say I've never had a problem with a Jigglypuff as Ness, you're all insane. Also, Shiek. Shiek. ****ING SHIEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

toasty · Jul 19, 2007

Ademisk said:
I still say I've never had a problem with a Jigglypuff as Ness, you're all insane.

LIES!!! MOTHER****ING LIES!!!!!!!! I don't really try to use Ness against Puff anymore, but just out of curiosity, wtf do you do?!?!?! I mean, I just do retreating fairs or I'll retreat and swing jump nair...you can't really spam DJC uair against a good Jiggz because they'll be way ahead of you and outprioritize the crap out of you, but man, at a less-than-high-damage, if you land that uair? sweeeeeeeeeeet =D but yeah, don't let the Kirby matchup confuse you, you can't spam that mess when Puff has high damage because you will NOT trade hits like against Kirby [man...if someone uses Kirby against you.......I feel bad for them

]

Edit: I have a feeling you can do some good standing defensive stuff with your angled ftilts, am I wrong? I hope the Jiggz players you go against are GOOD Ademisk, I don't know if I can handle these false hopes, it's bad enough I play Ness ><

Sinz · Jul 19, 2007

Captain Falcon rocks. Just gotta say that.

thesage · Jul 19, 2007

Sinz said:
Captain Falcon rocks. Just gotta say that.

o RLY?!

With Captain Falcon you have to play a very dodgy (not defensive) Ness. You have be evasive and never ever try pkt unless he's really far away (leads to a knee). Ness can combo him really nicely (Uair chaingrab rapsies). Oh and watch out for d-throw to knee. Keep mixing up how u di the dthrow cause it can really throw them off. You still need to avoid getting grabbed though. His main approaches will be jc grab, fair, nair, and side-b (sometimes). When you edgeguard him: if he's close to the stage use fair it creates a wall he can't get past, when he's fair away nair him (if you nair him while he's doing his up-b you get a cookie).

Jigglymaster · Jul 20, 2007

Ademisk said:
I still say I've never had a problem with a Jigglypuff as Ness, you're all insane. Also, Shiek. Shiek. ****ING SHIEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You must play against some sucky Jigglypuff players. If Jigglypuff was allowed in a Low tier tournament and you played Ness you would get pwned so hard by that Jigglypuff. There is no way in hell a Ness can beat a Jigglypuff unless the Jigglypuff player's skill level is much worse than the Ness's.

And BTW look at this

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025

Look at Jiggs vs Ness

They are saying that if a Ness and Jiggs at high equal skil level went face to face in a best of 9 the Jiggs would win with a 5-1 win loss record

So according to this that means Ness's worst match-ups are Jigglypuff and Falco

Rapid_Assassin · Jul 20, 2007

That chart is wrong in many spots. I listed what I thought Ness's hardest matchups are: Sheik, Marth, Jigglypuff. Reason why Jigglypuff is hard should be self explanatory, but i'm going to talk about it anyway. Ever try getting back on the stage vs. a good Jigglypuff? Good luck with that one.

Jigglymaster · Jul 20, 2007

Lmao I'm a good Jigglypuff. >_>

These Ness players need to expalin how they claim its easy to beat a good Jigglypuff.

Ademisk · Jul 20, 2007

I don't know, and my friend plays a pretty good Jigglypuff actually. He's not pro, but he's quite a bit better than me. He tends to beat me about 60% of the time, but it's always a close game. I think it might come from the fact that he plays an abnormal Jigglypuff, or so people kept telling him at the last Washington monthlies. Anyway, I can't help it that I've never had a problem with a Jigglypuff, I just...haven't. Now, that's not to say that Jigglypuff isn't amazing at edgeguarding Ness, I fully recognize that, but it's still not enough to completely overwhelm me, I feel I have the advantage over any Jigglypuff my level on solid ground.

And for the record, I never said Jigglypuff was easy. I said she isn't a problem. Shiek, Marth, Falco, and Fox are my problems.

thesage · Jul 20, 2007

I play jigglypuff too. The fact that she edgeguards him so well isn't the main problem (a lot of other chars can do it too...). My main problem with jigglypuff is that Ness is so easy to punish with rest. When I wasn't experienced pk fire, pk thunder, yo-yos, bat, improper spacing all led to rests. I got more experienced and now that isn't a problem for me. Now I'm on an almost even level (well ok like I got two stocked last time I played him a month ago) with someone who plays much more often than me (for a much longer period of time) who mains jiggs. My main problem is that my thunder gets eaten. Jigglypuff's bair isn't a HUGE problem considering you're saying that Marth is easier than jiggs and Marth outranges (Ness still gets hit on his fair so that don't count) all of Ness moves (besides his running and pk fire). It's an overrated matchup, like how most of Ness' low tier matchups are overrated (GaW and YL can be real *****es if you don't know what to do).

*searches for something important*h

N.OW · Jul 20, 2007

vs jigglypuff is not so bad, you just have to play differently then normal. You have to get above jigglypuff and use lots of down airs and just combo out of that. Ness>Jiggly from above and below with headbutts. You also need to get into a habit of staying near the center of the stage and not edgeguarding. Jiggly will gimp you badly if you are hanging around the edge.

GildedPunch · Jul 20, 2007

thesage said:
o RLY?!

With Captain Falcon you have to play a very dodgy (not defensive) Ness. You have be evasive and never ever try pkt unless he's really far away (leads to a knee). Ness can combo him really nicely (Uair chaingrab rapsies). Oh and watch out for d-throw to knee. Keep mixing up how u di the dthrow cause it can really throw them off. You still need to avoid getting grabbed though. His main approaches will be jc grab, fair, nair, and side-b (sometimes). When you edgeguard him: if he's close to the stage use fair it creates a wall he can't get past, when he's fair away nair him (if you nair him while he's doing his up-b you get a cookie).

Thanks for the on topic response! :psycho:

EDIT: Acually I knew all this, but the problem is I can't dodge it!
My bro will wait the whole match if he has to, just to grab me ONCE!
He'll do his little dash dancing, showing off crap cuz ness can't move as fast and im like standing there.......What do I do?? I know what's coming, either a grab or a nair.

Levitas · Jul 20, 2007

Really, you don't need to be as fast as falcon to do mind games against your brother. The real point is that if you're dash dancing, wave dancing, circle jumping, or whatever, you aren't just standing there waiting to eat a nair. It's much harder to hit someone who is dash dancing than standing, so he'll be a little more careful on approach, hopefully leaving himself with an opening.

Also, try mixing dash attacks and DJCed fairs into the mix, missing intentionally by coming up way short, then reverting to whatever you were doing before.

Know that knowing what's coming doesn't help if you don't know when it's coming. That's what mind games is all about--adding an element of surprise to the combos that everyone expects.

Regardless, don't let him be the only one with mind games, or you'll be playing at a disadvantage for the whole game.

thesage · Jul 20, 2007

I think it's shiek, Peach, and Marth. Sheik and Peach need to know wtf they're doing, but Marth can just destroy Ness. You really need to learn how to get aroundt that sword.

GildedPunch · Jul 20, 2007

Thanks for the help guys.
Thanks jman!

toasty · Jul 20, 2007

thesage said:
but Marth can just destroy Ness. You really need to learn how to get aroundt that sword.

trust me, I'm getting closer and closer to breaking that mother****er's game!
it takes a great deal of awareness when it comes to spacing, that's the absolute main thing that will keep you alive, knowing Marth's range and staying the **** out of it. don't do the baiting game TOO much because if he's smart and catches on, then he may fake falling for your bait, but he won't attack [and thus won't extend his hitbox], you'll swing at nothingness, and then YOUR hitbox will be extended and now he's got your *** in perfect tipper range, and then you die at 30...well, on Yoshi's Story anyway haha

just go effing crazy, master Ness's movements and make him FAST and insane...so unpredictable YOU almost aren't positive what you're doing.

thesage · Jul 20, 2007

I learned those sidestep tricks from you. So super helpful. You almost always want to DI away from Marth unless he's thrown you, then go towards him (if you're damage is low). If your damage is high you don't want that tipper to hit you. Marth has a really bad kill problem against Ness at higher damages. Just watch out for utilt and f-smash.

Rapid_Assassin · Jul 20, 2007

Captain Falcon will always be faster than you, unless you're Fox. Just something you have to get around... Mindgame him. You know what he's going to approach with? Wavedash back, and f-air him.

Marth is hard as Ness. It doesn't help that his grab outranges 2/3 of your moves..

Haven't played this matchup much recently though, because if the Marth is the slightest bit of a threat, I'd usually rather be Zelda than anyone else I play. (lol that might say something about my counterpicking if I just play another character that's supposed to do ****ty vs. Marth instead) I guess my general advice here: Don't get tipped, ban Yoshi's Story (why you wouldn't ban that stage as Ness anyway is beyond me), and use more mindgames...

thesage · Jul 20, 2007

I wouldn't ban YS against a jigglypuff...

Rapid_Assassin · Jul 21, 2007

thesage said:
I wouldn't ban YS against a jigglypuff...

I would if they play any other characters. Ban any other stage, and you might have to face a Marth on YS...

Rupert · Jul 22, 2007

my hardest matchups are sheik, who my friend plays very well, and beats me 70% of the time when I use Ness against him. A good Jiggs can outmaneuver Ness easily, and use rest on him without much diffuculty. I've never used Ness against a Falcon, cuz i always a Falco against Falcons (which some of my friends use and at tourneys and they are all good with him <_<) For me, my hardest matchups are Sheik, Jiggs, and I have a problem against ICs for some reason. But thats for every character I use lol.

thesage · Jul 23, 2007

It's Sheik and Marth. Peach is hard, but she can be overcome. Fox is harder than Falco beacause of gay up-smash. Falco's lasers (psi magnet helps) and dair hurts (u-tilt helps). It's really hard for me to judge the Fox and Falco matchups though because most of the people I play with those chars aree way better than me, but after the match I can see myself doing other things that could have won the match. It's really hard to tell Ness' worst matchup because most Ness' have less experience than most people (excluding Simna, Mow, others that I'm to tired to remember, OYM, you know who you are).

technomancer · Jul 23, 2007

Puff is probably the worst. Not hard to take 2-3 stock off but actually winning the grind is impossible, you have no gimps vs. Puff and she can WoP you off the side. Backthrow is your best killer, ban dreamland.

Next up, Falco, with lazors, which own Ness. Whoever said Psi Magnet, it's just not worth it.

After that, Peach, Sheik, Marth, Samus, Luigi, CF in approximately that order.

indie_dave · Jul 23, 2007

technomancer said:
Puff is probably the worst. Not hard to take 2-3 stock off but actually winning the grind is impossible, you have no gimps vs. Puff and she can WoP you off the side. Backthrow is your best killer, ban dreamland.

Next up, Falco, with lazors, which own Ness. Whoever said Psi Magnet, it's just not worth it.

After that, Peach, Sheik, Marth, Samus, Luigi, CF in approximately that order.

Q4T thank u

also, no decent jiggs is ever on the ground ever...no yyg either

thesage · Jul 23, 2007

Psi Magnet worked for me at Pound... *shrugs*.

toasty · Jul 23, 2007

I actually don't think Marth is the hardest match for Ness...it's up there, but I think it's a LOT more manageable than Ness's other top tier matchups. A huuuuge pro as far as the Marth matchup goes is the fact that Marth has no projectiles. So you have tons of room to play to create entry points for your attacks [except on Yoshi's Story X_X...but you can still get away with SOME mindgaming-through-movements...you just can't make them as CRAZY on YS as you could on other bigger stages...no room for error on YS against a Marth]

All_Characters · Jul 23, 2007

Marth is acutally not too bad of a match-up for ness. His f-air is great for out-ranging Marth.

Ademisk · Jul 23, 2007

It's not so much his f-air as his dash. Simna told me once that Ness's attacks outspeed Marths, but only when he's close up, so you have to space yourself perfectly outside of his attacks, and wait for an opportunity to get in close, then let him have it, and re-space yourself when you get out of range. Or something like that, Simna correct me if I have any of that wrong.

Also, Psi magnet against a Falco just requires proper spacing, it's not an everytime move, it's a once in a while move. Otherwise, it's all about the powershielding.

Ness_STFU · Jul 28, 2007

Never, ever had a problem with JigglyPuff... It's rough sneaking in the KO, but BackThrows, Uairs and Bairs work well. The Bat (Fsmash) is usually a bad idea, but I was never a Fsmasher, particularly with Ness.

Captain Falcon/Falco are the worst, by far I think, but more likely because of how poorly Ness is played even by professionals.

Most Ness players have a lot of down time, a lot of slow moves and a lot of non-consecutive hits (non-combos) in their game. Once you've eliminated this problem with DJC SHFFLs, the fast fallers really take a serious beating. The real trick is setting up the combos though... Fairs to UpThrow to Uair/Utilt/Uthrow combos to Fair/BackThrows and such will obliterate even the fastest fastfallers.

Unfortunately, without near perfect technique, you're bird food so to speak. Particularly Falcos will shut you down hard.

Ganondorf has never been a problem... he's a big, slow target (relatively) and it pretty easy to ledge guard against.

Link/YLink are a cinch, so long as it's someone who just loves that Dair/Uair of theirs. Wait for it, wavedash to the side, DJC SHFFLd Bair get them every time.

Zelda can be kind of a pain, thankfully there's maybe 7 Zelda players in the world.

A good Fox can be a hassle, but a good Fox is a hassle to anyone; not just Ness.

Marth, same thing. Spacing is EVERYTHING. Know where his sword could be and stay the hell out of that space.

Peach, not a problem usually, at least, nothing that's particular to Ness.

A spammy Samus can be a big pain in the but, as you really can't get across the screen horizontally very quicky without wavedashing/being on the ground. If you're amazing, you can hit the missiles back with the bat.

A good Doc can punish sloppy technique rather well, but that's easily fixed (get better at L-cancelling, Fairs and dodging pills)

Shiek... ouch. Painful, but not as bad as Falco/Captain F. She can't shut you down as much, but can really be dirty with needles off the edge and Fairs when you're recovering.

Anyway... imo definitely Falco/Falcon take the cake.

thesage · Jul 28, 2007

Lolz you live in Manasas. We need to smash! NOW!!!

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