Roy vs Zelda

exarch · Nov 4, 2007

Ok in light of what we began to discuss intelligently in Rok's guide...

What do y'all think about Roy vs Zelda?

I used to think it was a hard counter--harder than Roy vs Sheik even. So did Mow (thought it was a hard counter).

Upon playing Mow at FC, he told me he thought it was an even matchup, because M2k beat his zelda with roy. One of the best Roys vs the best Zelda. Concerning Mow's skill, it should be noted from what I've heard Mow beats M2k in fox dittos all the time. This may be false information though.

Until recently one the best Zelda in Florida (who doesn't get ***** by fox like Mow's does) used to wreck my Roy. But the past few times I played him something fell into place and I was able to win... by more than one stock occassionally too.

I will go into what I changed in my style later... time for Starcraft now.
Post your opinions!!!! (unless you're Rok cause I don't want this to be a flame thread)

Sethlon · Nov 4, 2007

I honestly don't really know too much about this matchup, thanks to few people playing as her in Texas, but i'll toss in what i can.

Dtilt seems to combo her as well as anybody, but from what I saw it also puts you at a good space to get f/bair'd. I didn't have a problem finishing her off though...just get her off the edge, edgehog to force her upB, and then jump up an f/dsmash. Roy really has the speed advantage, but its dangerous to try to take advantage of, because weaving in and out tends to get you lightning kicked alot.

Can zelda edgeguard roy at all??

I'd say its somewhat in zelda's favor, because of that outrageous reach/knockback from her f/bairs, but its not impossible.

handsockpuppet · Nov 4, 2007

i doubt anybody could beat M2K in a fox ditto. nice thread by the way. Zelda isn't even close to as tough as sheik though.

like I was saying in roK's guide, SHFFLing is always good. I like to use nairs and Uairs against Zelda. I found some DED combinations very effective. the classic >B>B>B works well, and use >B>BvB if she tries to CC.

as Sethlon said, Dtilt is good (as always). i've encountered some Zeldas with serious mindgames, so all i can say is , don't fall for it. I like to shorthop tippered flare blades, it great for spacing and mindgames.

many zeldas wait for you to fall helpless and then attack. advice for this: waveland. i'll post more when i think of more XD.

NJzFinest · Nov 4, 2007

handsockpuppet, no offence, but I think you should concentrate more on improving your skill in smash rather than giving tips. You don't "seem" to have alot of experience in the competitive community. I mean, Nairs, fire blades, and "simply wavelanding" isn't going to necessarily help you win the match against an experienced Zelda player.

There are 2 great Zeldas in New Jersey, Ryoko and Magus. I don't know which Zelda's you've played before, but play those players to get a good sense of the matchup and just simply seeing the character at high levels of play. Also, get taught by LordKnight or Mew2king, since they both have good knowledge about Roy.

About Mew2King vs Mow, I'm pretty sure Mew2King's Roy is more than good enough to be Mow's Fox, Zelda doesn't even have to be mentioned

handsockpuppet · Nov 5, 2007

NJzFinest, could you please post a video of you playing Roy. I hear you saying things like "improve your skill instead of giving tips," but who said I needed improvement, and for that matter, who said I cared. Your the one with 4,600 posts, not me. My tips are optional. don't use them if you don't want.

NJzFinest · Nov 5, 2007

Why do I have to post a video of me playing Roy? That's irrelevant eventhough my Roy isn't that bad

I played with NEO, M2K, and Lordknight (all good Roys), plus, I'm a competitive player myself, so I have the experience to give a some solid fact/strats. You don't seem to have any experience in competitive tournaments whatsoever, and others who have seen your posts agree. It's like you only play your best friends from school everyday and occassionally your little sister. Hey, why won't YOU put up videos? You're the one who's giving tips! I'm assuming you judge things off of videos since you asked me to put up one, that's insanely stupid. You have to go out and play those people, not watch them from your computer seat. Among the higher levels of play, players see videos as entertainment, they aren't arrogant enough to actually base anything significant of the players. Stupid stuff like "oh, KDJ beat M2K in these videos...so he's better?" *Wrong* People might see a cool trick here or there, some good player getting destoryed, but it's dumb to dge a person off 3 minutes of footage. However, if the player is pretty BAD, then one can have the right to judge them lol

My post count has nothing to do with anything by the way, I hate it when people refer to it. However...my join date does mean something xD (more years of knowledge of the competitive scene). You're a simply a new player, just go out there and play those competitive players, it's fun. Some thing they can learn from smashboards and youtube along....but that's a HUGE false.

You call you're tips "optional", but I just call them bad. I'm not the one asking for tips....so I don't plan on using them, nor even Sethlon's. However, Sethlon's are actually helpful and the person in need of tips will benefit from them instead of yours. Also, it really doesn't matter if you don't care or not. If you're wrong, your wrong. Also, a good number of people have seen your lack of intelligence, especially in the Tier list thread.
Don't be aggorant and become another RagnaRoKTheReaper, understand?

Go here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=99590
Get up to at least 10th in the Power Rankings, then I will have some respect for your skill (some because NJ doesn't have that many good players xD). *Hint* You do this by going to competitive tournaments.

handsockpuppet · Nov 5, 2007

I read your whole message. while there's dozens of things i can complain about, I won't. this thread is for advice on Roy vs. Zelda, and not the spam thread Sethlon made, if you wanna yell at me some more, do it there. Don't post here again unless you have some ideas on this subject. And i already posted advice here, whether it's good or not. Now please, let's end our arguments.

exarch · Nov 5, 2007

Agreed take it to PM's guys.

So the change I made to my style in this match is I began to throw out a lot more attacks.

Zelda does not have a fast move, so you can really press your advantage once you get on top of her. Just make sure you're inside the kick range.

Roy can "Pillar" zelda's shield by doing a barrage of attacks to keep her inside it,
and once she's in the air at a certain hieght, she falls victim to the shuffle fair x20 combo.

So really the idea here is to be fast Roy. Whereas other matches it's not a good thing to do.

NJzFinest · Nov 5, 2007

Zelda doesn't not have a fast move? A good number of her moves start and end fairly quickly. Even if you don't think Zelda's, say, Lighting Kick is fast (which it is, especially for the fact you can do 2 in a short hop), it still has range, which is very important. Ex. Ganondorf outspacing characters with his Forward Air. As Mow says, Zelda is pretty much a lagless character (when it comes to the majority of her "A" moves). Btw, as a whole, Zelda has the quickest set of Smash Attacks in the game.

About Zelda's shield, Dtilt ***** it. Zelda's shield doesn't cover the bottom of her body, so Dtilting her and poking her through plaforms is 2 good. However, the fact that Zelda can space Bairs/Fairs out of shield and isn't necessarily the type of plaform camping character somewhat covers that problem.

exarch · Nov 5, 2007

i meant more along the lines of Zelda's moves have more frames of startup than most others.

ok some of her ground moves are quick (dtilt dsmash), but in the air she's got no fast combo breaker.
and she's got nothing fast out of shield too.

These are the areas roy needs to press his advantage in.

NJzFinest · Nov 6, 2007

Zelda is plenty fast out of shield. Upsmash out of shield is VERY quick believe it or not. Fair/Bair out of shield is fairly quick and can be spaced, maybe even neutral B out of shield. Hmm, as for a combo breaker, Fair/Bair actually isn't that bad, think of it as Marth's Fair cept disrupting an attempted combo, but not as godly. Nair isn't that bad as well since it comes out quicky and has decent priority. The main reason why Zelda is slow is because of her movement both in the air and on ground. But still, Roy's combo ability against Zelda isn't all that great anyways (*looks back at NEO's Roy vs KrazyJone's Peach*). If you try to be too offensive trying to combo, a good DIed hit from Zelda, a simple wiffed move, or a missed move can lead to a unfortunate Lighting Kick in the face.

I think where Roy shines is his dash dance camping, kinda like how CFalcon can do well against Marth by dash dance camping.

exarch · Nov 6, 2007

good point with upsmash out of shield, didn't think about that.

Bair takes 10 frames to hit out of shield, fair is slower than her shield grab. Nair is a little slower than bair.

Bair hits on frame 5, Peach's nair hits on frame 3. Those 2 frames actually make a good bit of difference.

handsockpuppet · Nov 7, 2007

this isn't about who's better, but I think a list of counterpicks may help some people.

Roy's advantage: Corneria, FD, DL64
neutral: YI64
Zelda's advanatge: KJ64, BF, FoD

you may correct but please don't flame.

Zone · Nov 7, 2007

handsockpuppet said:
this isn't about who's better, but I think a list of counterpicks may help some people.

Roy's advantage: Corneria, FD, DL64
neutral: YI64
Zelda's advanatge: KJ64, BF, FoD

Why do you have Dreamland 64 on roy's advantage over zelda? Just curious because I love Dreamland, harder to kill Zelda there with her floatyness.

handsockpuppet · Nov 7, 2007

I put that there because the platforms give more space for Roy to juggle. unlike Zelda, Roy can poke through the platforms with his reach.

NJzFinest · Nov 7, 2007

handsockpuppet said:
this isn't about who's better, but I think a list of counterpicks may help some people.

Roy's advantage: Corneria, FD, DL64
neutral: YI64
Zelda's advanatge: KJ64, BF, FoD

you may correct but please don't flame.

Nah, Zelda still takes on Roy on Final D, she has an easier time running around, camping, and spacing. So I say Zelda has it here.

On Corneria, she has trouble spacing on the "top part" of the ship because of it's slant. However, she can always camp the bottom right side. Because that right side is very close to the kill zone, Roy gets ***** easily by a good Lighting Kick whereas Roy has TROUBLE landing a decent forwardsmash. If Zelda whores that side, then she definitely has the advantage.

DreamLand64 is a big no for Roy. Zelda is already hard enough to kill, playing on a stage with a large kill zone will just benefit her. Peach even struggles with Zelda here.

Yoshi Story is one of Zelda's best stages in general. She's good at camping the edges and using her ledgejumps for free kicks. Because it's small, either character can die at lower %, however, Zelda is the one who will have an easier time getting the solid blows.

KJ64 is probably even since Zelda has no where safe to teleport to because of the wierd ledges and has more trouble spacing because of the wierd layout of the stage.

handsockpuppet said:
I put that there because the platforms give more space for Roy to juggle. unlike Zelda, Roy can poke through the platforms with his reach. also, the wind is a bigger disadvantage to Zelda than to Roy, though not by much.

Zelda shouldn't be on the platforms to start with. Also, Roy can barely juggle Zelda well at all, considering the fact she recovers quickly after being hit + reasonable DI.
Also, wind is almost never an issue in any character matchup. If anything, it helps Zelda by landing a good Lighthing Kick.

darkatma · Nov 7, 2007

Hrm I've never played a serious roy with my zelda.. so I would like to hear about this matchup too.
IMO it seems zelda has a lot on Roy - Just by looking at frames and approach methods.

I liked the part about dtilting zelda's shield, but at a spaced distance, because i believe you should be low enough to avoid sh fair out of shield (Not so sure about sh bair, because of frame differences.) This seems logical because fox can completely dodge zelda's fair when he whiffs a dash grab (Non-jced) because he bends over slightly.

Oh yea, most of the time zelda has a hard time dealing with speed, so i do agree on playing faster than you would normally.

@ NJ: If only Ryokoyaksa and Magus actually went to tournies again =[ Ryoko is always busy with other stuff in his life, so I've never seen him play competitively past doing sexy stuff vs magus.

handsockpuppet · Nov 7, 2007

NJzFinest said:
Nah, Zelda still takes on Roy on Final D, she has an easier time running around, camping, and spacing. So I say Zelda has it here.

I put this one for Roy since He can take advantage of his speed. Zelda may have an easier time running, but so does Roy. she can't really camp since every thing's flat and the stage really isn't that big. For Zelda spacing is simply hitting and running :chuckle:

because Roy has longer reach and a faster running speed.

On Corneria, she has trouble spacing on the "top part" of the ship because of it's slant. However, she can always camp the bottom right side. Because that right side is very close to the kill zone, Roy gets ***** easily by a good Lighting Kick whereas Roy has TROUBLE landing a decent forwardsmash. If Zelda whores that side, then she definitely has the advantage.

I didn't think of that. I put this because It's pretty big and Roy can space easily. I didn't think Zelda could camp at the bottom right because it's so tall. Unlike FD, Corneria has an indent at the bottom of the right, which makes it tougher for Zelda to sweetspot. BTW when you say lightning kick are you referring to her Bair?

DreamLand64 is a big no for Roy. Zelda is already hard enough to kill, playing on a stage with a large kill zone will just benefit her. Peach even struggles with Zelda here.

I see what you mean, although Roy also benefits from a large kill zone, really all Zelda has in the way of kill moves is the lightning kick.

KJ64 is probably even since Zelda has no where safe to teleport to because of the wierd ledges and has more trouble spacing because of the wierd layout of the stage.

I gave this to Zelda because I thought she could teleport through the floor.

Zone · Nov 7, 2007

handsockpuppet said:
I put this one for Roy since He can take advantage of his speed. Zelda may have an easier time running, but so does Roy. she can't really camp since every thing's flat and the stage really isn't that big. For Zelda spacing is simply hitting and running because Roy has longer reach and a faster running speed.

Which makes it all the more easier to bait a hit with a retreating spaced B-air. And sure Roy may have alot of speed, but Jab works good against roy's grab approach and after that Zelda can bust out one of her fast smash attacks, or if they predict you'll be more defensive because of a quick dash attack or smash after jab, they may try and grab. But yea Zelda likes to run away, but if you keep trying to catch her, she may throw a Forward air or b-air AT you instead of retreated, and possibly catch you off guard if your trying to catch her on the run. Dunno I think F-D is pretty even. Zelda can upthrow to kick roy here to.

handsockpuppet said:
I didn't think of that. I put this because It's pretty big and Roy can space easily. I didn't think Zelda could camp at the bottom right because it's so tall. Unlike FD, Corneria has an indent at the bottom of the right, which makes it tougher for Zelda to sweetspot. BTW when you say lightning kick are you referring to her Bair?

She can camp there, mainly because you don't have something like a Link bomb to toss down. So you either wait out the clock or you go to her. Because if it's a serious match, Zelda really doesn't wanna be that close to the ceiling. or the tail(on the up side).

handsockpuppet said:
I see what you mean, although Roy also benefits from a large kill zone, really all Zelda has in the way of kill moves is the lightning kick.

Roy can't recover as far as Zelda can, So extra KO distance isn't really gonna help roy unless you get the upper corners. Besides it may take more kicks now, but it's only 1-2 more than usual.

handsockpuppet said:
I gave this to Zelda because I thought she could teleport through the floor.

Only thing I like about Kongo Jungle 64 is her super long Up+B makes it ez for horizontal move for the barrel!

I like Yoshi's Island (The shy guy one). Because it seems to make getting kicks in a little easier. Not too sure about vs roy though. However I do like that level vs marth, Because He'll die to a kick at a really low %.

EDIT: Also I hate Fountain of Dreams when I'm Zelda or Captain falcon. Mainly because I find myself jumping on low platforms and preforming a random smash attack instead of the aerial I wanted. Then i'm quickly punished. But this may just be a personal problem. I don't mind this stage vs falco though.

5150 · Nov 7, 2007

handsockpuppet said:
I put that there because the platforms give more space for Roy to juggle. unlike Zelda, Roy can poke through the platforms with his reach. also, the wind is a bigger disadvantage to Zelda than to Roy, though not by much.

wtf are you talking about? wind doesnt affect you in the air and zelda should be in the air the whole time. you dont know what you're talking about.

handsockpuppet · Nov 7, 2007

...edited out. any more flames?

NJzFinest · Nov 7, 2007

handsockpuppet said:
I put this one for Roy since He can take advantage of his speed. Zelda may have an easier time running, but so does Roy. she can't really camp since every thing's flat and the stage really isn't that big. For Zelda spacing is simply hitting and running because Roy has longer reach and a faster running speed.

Roy does not have longer reach, Zelda does, therefore, she can camp (despite Roy's speed). What is speed isn't worth much when you can't even get close to the opponent. Also, Final D is fairly large.

handsockpuppet said:
I didn't think of that. I put this because It's pretty big and Roy can space easily. I didn't think Zelda could camp at the bottom right because it's so tall. Unlike FD, Corneria has an indent at the bottom of the right, which makes it tougher for Zelda to sweetspot. BTW when you say lightning kick are you referring to her Bair?

Fair and Bair

handsockpuppet said:
I see what you mean, although Roy also benefits from a large kill zone, really all Zelda has in the way of kill moves is the lightning kick.

Lightning kick is more than enough. Unlike Roy's KO moves, her Fair/Bair isn't laggy, it's spammable, can be done in almost any situation, and has range.
Also, Zelda's Fsmash is a good KO move too (which is also not that laggy and spammable, however, it can be DI'd out of).
Roy has to mindgame like crazy to get a solid hit while Zelda just has to throw out some kicks here and there.

handsockpuppet said:
I gave this to Zelda because I thought she could teleport through the floor.

Well, do to her slow falling speed, Roy can easily follow her and land a Fsmash.

XIF · Nov 8, 2007

ready for my amazing insight?

Zelda>Roy.

any stage.

end of story.

handsockpuppet · Nov 8, 2007

even if that's true, that doesn't help the forum. post some backup for it, or tell what Roy can do to even thing out.

exarch · Nov 8, 2007

Xif: Roy vs Zelda whenever I see you again. And Roy vs Peach again too!! You're not in Weston anymore.

Obviously I play completely different against Zelda than EVERYONE else. You guys seem to be thinking that the whole match is Roy trying to approach Zelda. Regardless of my character I pressure her the whole time. So approaching isn't really what I try to do, more like continuing to be on top of her.

It's hard to explain, but I've found this is the best approach with Roy against Zelda.
I'll see if i can't record some in the next few days and get back to y'all with some videos. Hopefully my Roy's still ok even though he's out of shape.

handsockpuppet · Nov 8, 2007

the trick is to keep her busy with attacks from you that she can't use her lightning kicks. I think there's more to the matchup then just keeping pressure on. Although honestly I'm getting tired of this thread.

Zone · Nov 8, 2007

Dunno I was messing with roy and I didn't really see anything that was spontaneously fast enough to could keep Zelda so pressured that she'd have to keep her shield up. Atleast nothing that Up+Smash out of shield, or Neutral B out of shield couldn't stop.

I'd have to see your example EXarch you must hold some super secret combination I'm missing.

NJzFinest · Nov 9, 2007

handsockpuppet said:
the trick is to keep her busy with attacks from you that she can't use her lightning kicks. I think there's more to the matchup then just keeping pressure on.

You seem to forget that her kicks have range, speed, power, and are spammable. You can't make her stop using them by simply attacking with pressure (or even just in general), period.

handsockpuppet said:
Although honestly I'm getting tired of this thread.

Zankoku · Nov 9, 2007

In Roy's matchup against Zelda, I pick Yoshi's Story and ban Dream Land. I'm not entirely sure of what Zelda's advantages/disadvantages are on YS, but as far as I can tell, higher % = harder for Roy to kill, and Dream Land loves keeping Zelda from dying.

NJzFinest · Nov 10, 2007

Zelda has the same advantages as Roy on YS, killing at lower percentages. But since she has a much easier time killing and controls the edges of the stage well, it's kinda ****.

exarch · Nov 18, 2007

Here's some of those vids I promised.

Exarch (Roy) vs Fenrir (Zelda) Pkstm
Exarch (Roy) vs Fenrir (Zelda) DL
Exarch (Roy) vs Fenrir (Zelda) FD

EDIT: Zelda was exhausted when we took these. *Johns for opponent*

Darkmusician · Nov 18, 2007

Does Fenrir main Zelda? Just wondering.

I understand how hard it can be to play Zelda when one is very tired.

5150 · Nov 18, 2007

Darkmusician said:
Does Fenrir main Zelda? Just wondering.

I understand how hard it can be to play Zelda when one is very tired.

wtf? all she does is ****ing kick. shes the perfect john character.

Zone · Nov 18, 2007

5150 said:
wtf? all she does is ****ing kick. shes the perfect john character.

You have no idea. It's more than that. She just can't Spam only kick, it's not that unstoppable that you can just spam that move only. It's predictable as hell if you just spam it. And when you play against things like high tiers, you need to be able to have near perfect spacing and choose the correct follow up after l-cancels.

Pitzer · Dec 17, 2007

When i fight Zelda's I usally go after her every second on every stage limiting her camping.
I Use Both Roy and Zelda as my main. So Here the thing Zelda Has the Advantage over Roy In most of the Stages except maybe Two that would be Battle Field and Mute City.

If your fighting a Fair, Bair Happy Person try To Dogde Roll Or Counter.
At lower Percent's Try Using Forward throws to Fair And end the Combo With A Fsmash.
When fighting on big stage Like FD or Dreamland It is Pretty Tough for Roy to get a Decent Hit on Zelda
Try building Her damage With Single DED's And Possible FTilt to get her out of your face.
She can use the Up B To move around the Stage so try to Predict where she will be ending up and Prepare To Fsmash Her. Also Take Advantage Of her Laggyness And Punish her for it There Are not that many combo's that A Roy Can do to Zelda due to her Floatyness and Her Lightining Kick As Combo breakers.
ANd her Amazing Survively on stage's like Dreamland and Yoshi story.

This is mainly a Mess up and your Screwed battle with boths Characters.
But with Zelda At a slightly higher chance of wining.
When i fight Zelda I usally Try my best To Pressure Her so much to make her mess up and take advantage over it.
But this Match could go either way so yea..

RyokoYaksa · Dec 17, 2007

If Zelda can be arsed to grab Roy, uthrow -> kick works until about 80-85% before uthrow. When Roy grabs Zelda, practically nothing happens. Roy's Dsmash is a weak vertical kill move and his fsmash can be Naryu'd or otherwise avoided easily. It's extremely hard to him to kill Zelda who can literally CC camp to survive.

Even with the major advantage Roy has in speed, Zelda's limited game still solidly outperforms Roy's limited game. Zelda is also a mean juggler to fast fallers, a group which Roy falls into.

Rain(ame) · Jan 20, 2008

Wait, Roy....is a Fast Faller? *blinks* I always have a hard time playing Fast Fallers. I don't have a problem with Roy's weight....he seems more medium weight to me.

5150 · Jan 20, 2008

Zone said:
You have no idea. It's more than that. She just can't Spam only kick, it's not that unstoppable that you can just spam that move only. It's predictable as hell if you just spam it. And when you play against things like high tiers, you need to be able to have near perfect spacing and choose the correct follow up after l-cancels.

no stfu. zelda is just 2 moves. fair and bair. it's not hard and you dont need to try and make her sound hard.

Darkmusician · Jan 20, 2008

Playing Zelda in a competitive match is hard and will always be hard because there are so many ways to kill her with ease.

comboking · Jan 20, 2008

good point

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