Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

AlphaZealot · Feb 4, 2008

This discussion having progressed quite a bit, I'd like everyone to take note of a few things.

First, the tier list is primarily based on tournament results. Within these results, the specific character versus character match ups should also be analyzed.

There are a few good tools at our disposal aside from our own ability to read match ups, however if your analysis of a match up is correct, it should be reflected in how that character is performing in tournaments, and if it is not correct, then you should reevaluate your analysis.

Suggested viewing
-Ankoku's Character Rankings List which looks at how characters are performing at tournaments.
-IvanEva's Brawl Character Match-Up Chart, which look at specific match ups.

Keep in mind these charts and lists are not absolute nor 100% accurate and are open to interpretation, but they are a good starting point for debate.

Kaizer · Feb 4, 2008

Jigglypuff seems pretty good in Brawl.

sync · Feb 4, 2008

The SF bunch, Marth, and ZSS look like top tier material to me. Powerful and quick.

MetalLuigi1209 · Feb 4, 2008

Fox, Falco, Sonic, Mario, Luigi, Wolf, Metaknight, Peach, Marth, and Pit are definatly high on the tier list.

Shiek, Pokemon Trainer, Link, Olimar, Kirby, Dedede,Jiggly, Falcon, Snake,Ike,Toon Link, Yoshi, Diddy,IC's, and Rob seem to be in the middle of the tier list.

Donkey Kong, Zelda,Ness, Lucas, Lucario, Bowser,Game and Watch,Ike, Wario, and Ganon seem to be on the southern half of the tier list this time around.

The lists I gave are in no order, and are just what I think an image of the first tier list will actually be like.

Reioumu · Feb 4, 2008

Top is like, space animals and Marth. They're so good. Peach lost a lot of priority (Wolf had like, complete priority over her when I was using her at least.) Dedede is good due to his chain grab against a ton of characters (D-throw dash forward D-throw). Though of course, I only played at pound 3 and recorded matches.

ZSS seemed pretty hard to use, well for me at least, it's WAAAAY too early to try to develop a tier list IMO.

edit: Marth is just like last game except his dash is slower and a few other things. Falco can kill people so easily. He has tons of great combos. Shooting multiple lasers in a short hop (3 is max I believe). Dave even said Falco can do SHDLShine as a mega sexy edge guard.

I also personally think, after my impression of G&W, he should be around high on the tier list. His recovery is so tricky where he can act again after Up-B and his D-air has almost no landing lag at all.

Patinator · Feb 4, 2008

So people can talk about tiers and Brawl without getting killed? Awesome!

From what I here...

High (Not necessarily top)

Marth
Wolf
Fox
Falco
Mario
Bowser
Dedede
Sonic
Meta Knight

Middle

Just about everyone I haven't mentioned

I can't tell that much, actually.

JFox · Feb 4, 2008

Diddy is gonna be up there somewhere. Maybe not top, but at least high tier. His best move is his Forward B probably. His combo'ing is pretty nasty and he has great recovery (although so does everyone pretty much) He lacks a finisher, which may keep him outta top tier.

I think Rob is really good, mid or higher.

Marth is broken and at least high, almost definitely top tier.

Falco looks ridiculous, probably top tier again. Wolf looks great too, and fox may be last of the space animals, but still good.

Meta Knight can combo like crazy, but has no KO potential. I think he will only be mid/high tier.

Dedede is over-rated. His CG is good, but you can't just CG to win (IE ganondorf in melee) He is too slow, although he has ridiculous kill potential when he hits.

E P I C · Feb 4, 2008

LOLs, this thread is funny.

choknater · Feb 4, 2008

lol @ the game not being out yet.

sync · Feb 4, 2008

It's out in Japan, and we've seen a lot of videos and even some of us have the game. My friend will have his within three days.

choknater · Feb 4, 2008

what i'm saying is

it hasn't officially released in the US meaning:

98% of smashboardians have not played the game
most competitive smashers have not played the game
we haven't seen jack of less popular characters being played
it is way too early to discuss tiers

sync · Feb 4, 2008

Very true. Point has been taken.

Hax · Feb 4, 2008

ok guys, i have played the game with dav3 at pound 3 and i have come to the conclusion that:
-marth, falco and game/watch are all really really good, G/W has the best KO potential in the game from what i've seen
-falcon got nerfed hard lol

sync · Feb 4, 2008

Interesting.

S2 · Feb 4, 2008

I'm curious as to what will happen with Pikmin, since Olimar doesn't play like anything in Melee.

Also, is the backroom going to rate Pokemon Trainer into a single tier or are they going to place all 3 of his pokemon in the individual tiers where they belong?

Zro · Feb 4, 2008

well considering ive just spent the weekend at pound 3 and was playin wit DA Dav3 mad od hard this weekend... i would have 2 say G&W is like top tier... he has incredible ko potential and great combo ability... just 2 **** good.... **** dire vulcan is gonna love brawl lol

also sonic will b mid tier at best... has great speed, combo ability, and racks up damage really quickly.... but it takes forever to kill someone... even when they r well over 125%... im still maining him tho ^_^

o yea get at me and hax beasting in that game lol

brdy_ · Feb 4, 2008

This is a good idea.

In my opinion:

ROB is at least high tier due to recovery and being able to attack during it, same with Pit. Peach got nerfed so I'm thinking lower-middle tier from who I've playedagainst . Ike seems middle tier as well, probably a bit higher than Peach... Marth being a little further up. Wario and Mario both seem high tier material. I haven't messed around with Pikmin and Olimar much but from what I've played he seems pretty hard to use or just crappy... not sure which, so low tier for him imo. Pokemon seem really mediocre, though Ivysaur seems pretty good. Maybe Upper middle?

Rebuttals and counterpoints are encouraged and welcome.

Sonic_Wolf · Feb 4, 2008

I really wish teir lists didnt exist, it makes people not want to use characters they normally use and ruins the fun of the game

gkrackerr · Feb 4, 2008

Aight, just here to offer what info I saw first hand at pound.

1) Diddy has very good combo ability. His u-air is very akin to falcon's u-air in N64, it also leads well to his fair/bair which each have decent knockback. His peanut gun is a bit floaty (the peanuts that is), but they seem to provide obstacles that allow Diddy to manuver a lil bit more unhindered. Overall I expect him to be high mid tier -> high tier.

2) Peach is crazy. I didn't play/see much of her, but from what i heard/saw, she is very good. Her float cancel will bring her very far in the brawl tier list, I expect somewhere around high tier -> top tier.

3) Falco is very good, and is no longer a clone

. His moves combo well, especially his u-tilt. Also, his multi attack (his AAA) is good at racking up quick damage and has little lag, meaning you could hit with an uptilt or nair and then go straight into it and follow up w/ another move afterwards. He can shdl now which will be pretty sexy. And, of course, his new shine, while not as good as his melee one (imo), seems interesting. I heard that dav3 shine spiked someone w/ falco's reflector in a brawl mm lol (not sure if this is true at all).

4) Marth will most definitely be top tier in this game. His speed has seemed to increase, and while he is lacking a lil range, his new speed and range have made up for it. His attacks are also much quicker to come out and finish. Short hop double fairs are still in, don't know if that's significant at all, but it's pretty coo. Overall he's pretty beast, sorry that I can't offer that much more input.

5) Wolf is very interesting. He has a strong set of attacks, and has very good kill moves (u-air ,bair, u-smash) His moves seem to flow into eachother somewhat, and his reflector does indeed push the enemy back, though not that far.

6) Lucario will definitely be mid tier -> high tier. His B move (or Kamehamaeha as everyone called it lol) is decent in damage and it's trajectory is a straighht line. He doesn't seem to combo too well, only like quick 1-2 hits, but he can rack up damage quickly. I forget what he used as a finisher, but I remeber it was decent.

well that's all for now, if I remeber anything else I'll post again.

sync · Feb 4, 2008

Tires don exits, eh?

All tiers are are saying how much potential a character has. I've seen people beat top tier characters with low/bottom tier characters.

Nonchalant · Feb 4, 2008

Someone wanna give me an overview of Samus? Zamus? Dedede?

YoYoBoY · Feb 4, 2008

Zelda's aerials look too good. I see highish tiers for her.

choknater · Feb 4, 2008

Sonic_Wolf said:
I really wish teir lists didnt exist, it makes people not want to use characters they normally use and ruins the fun of the game

Tier lists will exist as long as fighting games and people who play them exist.

Mad555 · Feb 4, 2008

Hax said:
ok guys, i have played the game with dav3 at pound 3 and i have come to the conclusion that:
-marth, falco and game/watch are all really really good, G/W has the best KO potential in the game from what i've seen
-falcon got nerfed hard lol

So did they make G&W heavier?
Cause if he did get a couple more pounds, he maybe wont be at the bottom this time.
Lucario seems like he might be middle, well i hope.

pass the syrup · Feb 4, 2008

I want to hear about Ice Climbers, Yoshi, Luigi, Bowser, Kirby, Ness and Lucas. We never hear anything about those characters. It's always Sonic, Marth, Space Animals and bounty hunters.

choknater · Feb 4, 2008

Once the game comes out, the old enthusiasts of those characters will revive them.

Sure, we're getting a lot of character info now... but once the game comes out, the amount of info coming in will multiply exponentially. I'll be one of your primary IC's guys... heheh. So let's just wait for it.

People who have the game right now are mostly playing more popular characters, so yeah.

freetyme · Feb 4, 2008

How many tiers are there exactly? Sorry that I have no input about where characters fit in (I wouldn't be too helpful not an expert on the subject). I just have this question.

sync · Feb 4, 2008

Five: Top, High, Middle, Low, and Bottom.

Reioumu · Feb 4, 2008

Hax said:
ok guys, i have played the game with dav3 at pound 3 and i have come to the conclusion that:
-marth, falco and game/watch are all really really good, G/W has the best KO potential in the game from what i've seen
-falcon got nerfed hard lol

I'll have to vouch this 100%. G&W is ridiculous. And being able to act after his Up-B = mad hax.

The Game II · Feb 4, 2008

Not to plug my own youtube portal or my site, but I'm wondering what everyone is basing their opinions off of. If you went to Pound, then I'm more inclined to believe you, but I don't know if this is more speculation or whatever. I do hope everyone checks out the matches that are on my youtube portal from the weekend because your opinions might either be hardened or change.

Pit seems to be destined for top tier.

--GCII

TheSMASHtyke · Feb 5, 2008

choknater said:
Once the game comes out, the old enthusiasts of those characters will revive them.

Sure, we're getting a lot of character info now... but once the game comes out, the amount of info coming in will multiply exponentially. I'll be one of your primary IC's guys... heheh. So let's just wait for it.

People who have the game right now are mostly playing more popular characters, so yeah.

I agree completely with this statement. Until The gme comes out in the US, Most of the reports on how charictors work will be short and unfairly bias. A little experimentation in the moth of March and April should ultimately give us a good tier list.

kenkowtow · Feb 5, 2008

We're not making a tier list here, all we're doing is discussing where we think characters should be and why. Ultimately the decision falls to the Broom (right?).

Oh and one more thing, back a page I saw something as to how many tiers there are. Technically it's not limited to 5 tiers but I do believe that is what is being aimed for. There can be for example a "broken" tier typically banned for tournament play (think Akuma). Also there could be a "junk/joke" tier (for lack of a better name...) where perhaps a character so weak and pitiful that it would need a tier of it's own so as to not shame the rest of the characters.

choknater · Feb 5, 2008

I just hope people don't appeal to early to false authorities like Montage.

Pierce7d · Feb 5, 2008

Eh, they jacked up Marth by nerfing his neutral B, and then boosted him by making his side-B more effective. I'm sensing another high-tier spot for him.

Meta-Knight can't finish well, but manages to succeed in 1v1s with what I think is his fair (I haven't played) as a finisher. His ability to fly and glide makes up for his lightness, and DI seems to be more powerful in this game. He's going up.

Those are the only two characters I really care about (so I watch the most about), but I can say that Dedede has the ability to fly as well, plus a really nice Up-B move that gives him an huge edge no heavy character had in Melee before: amazing vertical recover. Chain throw racks up good damage, and unlike half the roster, he's good at finishing, so he might be higher up.

The Game II · Feb 5, 2008

Pierce7d said:
Meta-Knight can't finish well, but manages to succeed in 1v1s with what I think is his fair (I haven't played) as a finisher. His ability to fly and glide makes up for his lightness, and DI seems to be more powerful in this game. He's going up.

Those I have talked to who liked MN at E For All now swear him off, nobody touches him/it. That totally surprised me because I thought he was going to be high tier.

--GCII

Zook · Feb 5, 2008

How about Toon Link? I haven't heard anything about him yet.

Same goes for Snake.

kackamee · Feb 5, 2008

Ice climbers=Just because IC's don't have their wavedash, I don't think they should really be in low tier, they are still great without chaingrabs too with one grab they can still combo really well. YOu can decide whatever, but I think they should still be atleast high-mid tier. Thier FS is good Too.
Yoshi= Even though he lost his DJC he got a nice buff by getting a little height iin his UpB move, I think Yoshi should get about low mid tier, and his FS rocks
DK= sucks alot worse then melee and his FS could be alot better, onl way I can see it work is with edge guarding

Grandeza · Feb 5, 2008

What does Luigi have going for him and against him, I have yet to see anything in the slightest that is detailed about him.

MetalLuigi1209 · Feb 5, 2008

zero suit falcon said:
What does Luigi have going for him and against him, I have yet to see anything in the slightest that is detailed about him.

QFT, Luigi has endless buffs, the green machine has a lot going for him this time around, PLUS his taunts alone should make him top tier. He has a better cyclone recovery, better dash attack, his over b can allow him to stick to walls! (picture a dart), his comboing and ground game have greatly improved, so why shouldn't he be high on the list?

Kyldare · Feb 6, 2008

choknater said:
lol @ the game not being out yet.

I know right? This thread is both exceedingly ridiculous and yet, absolutely fitting as a subject for this forum. It makes me laugh that most of us still know very little about the characters, other than what we have observed, but we still have a pretty good idea about tiers. I personally think Meta Knight is gonna suprise some people...

Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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