Kuja's (In)Complete Guide to Making Sonic an annoying ___!

While there's several threads about Sonic's usefulness, the properties of his attacks, I figured this would be best in the fact that I could gather useful tactics, play victories, and other things. As well, I could drive home several points about Sonic that many players just don't seem to get. Anyway, let's begin.

FAQ:

Why are you making this?

I'm making this largely because Sonic's playstyle is viciously misunderstood. People play him like a combo ******* correctly, but when it comes time to actually KO the opponent, they always screw up. Also they really don't properly utilize Sonic's moves.

But Sonic doesn't have any killing moves!

THAT'S NOT THE ****ING POINT OF SONIC.

Sonic has no kill moves, so what? He's got bigger problems than that, like no priority, and what little power moves he has being unreliable and tough to connect with. But why are you relying on those moves in the way you are? To put it simply like HugS did in the general area: ATTENTION: WE *ALL* SUCK AT SONIC. (This goes for me too. Yes, I also suck at Sonic, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize good strategies when I see one.)

So if we all suck as Sonic, O wise and snarky Kuja, what's the point then?

To show viable strategies so we suck LESS. And now with the miniFAQ out the way let's get to the meat of this post.

First, let's talk general strategy.

Sonic's fast. **** fast, if you don't already know. Let's get the Captain Obvious **** out of the way and say use that speed to your advantage. Smack your foes, then chase them and smack 'em again! Or better yet space yourself and make yourself hard to counter, predict, and hit! WOW, so obvious! Yet I see little use of that, most people tend to spam running rolls, an attack or two, and then wait for the opponent to recover and try again. Doesn't work with Sonic--he needs to keep his foes frustrated or on their toes, otherwise they will easily evade his attacks. As well, you should take advantage of a foe's lag frames and run in for the attack, something I rarely see yet, but will likely get better with time. The second and bigger thing, however, is that the air game has changed. No longer is the ridiculous gravity from Melee around to make air battles unsafe for all not named Jigglypuff/Peach, many characters can stick to the sky and fight well. Sonic is one such character, and I don't see enough people using it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ihP_E8aeamU

Look at this video someone found (I did not make it, and I'm not the first to post it.). A level 9 computer, yes, but it's a good showcase of all of Sonic's strengths, and as well as proper useage of some of Sonic's attacks. Notice how Sonic used his homing attack to gimp DK's recovery instead of spamming it as a direct attack. This isn't as effective on human foes who float well, but it's nice to have a surprise gimp! However, the homing attack works better in certain situations I'll detail later.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QO-Sj-RYBJc&feature=related

This is a showcase of what NOT to do with Sonic. Ike's recovery isn't that hot, but Sonic NEVER took advantage of it. At one point in the video, Sonic knocks Ike out pretty far and taunts. He simply let Ike back in instead of intercepting, like he should have. There are other times where he decides to spam his power moves. They're going to fail against Ike. DON'T BLOODY TRY IT. Don't spam his unreliable smashes to KO your foes.

So what exactly should you use Sonic's smashes for?

The forward is best used as a surprise attack. Use it when your foe will least expect it. Don't try to connect with it for a finishing touch, whip it out when your foe can't see it coming (inb4that'swhatshesaid)

Some recent discoveries, however, have made the Fsmash perhaps more useable. A technique called Stutter-stepping, involving tapping back at a standstill/walk before quickly c-sticking a forward smash, can extend the range of this move and make it actually useable in an offensive manner. InterimofZeal states he can even outdistance Marth with it, verification pending. As far as I've played, it extends Sonic a little bit and is great for clipping troublesome foes, but I haven't gone really far with it. It is fairly practical in tourney play, since now you can actually use it as a kill move instead of praying it works as a surprise.

The down? Get everyone out of Sonic's grill.

The up? perhaps the only one that can be used as an offensive move, especially since you can run and up smash.

EDIT: This video shows nice techniques.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kvWcPzbCsDU

Thank bugball, and please don't mind the terrible spelling.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qTzWHFKdJNI

InterimofZeal's, in his opinion, best Sonic video. cleaning Dedede was epic to watch. Spacing game with Sonic is really good here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSmWMVwMgRg#

This last video is here, one of the earlier showcases of Sonic. It shows both sides of the coin (How sonic did better when he gimped CF instead of trying to outpower him)

Part Deux: Weaknesses you must shield from

So yeah, we have of course the BAAAAWWWW NO KILL MOVES BAAAWWW crap out of the way. But we've got other pressing matters as I've said above. I will not sugar coat. Sonic is not going to rule the tiers, largely because of poor priority. What does this mean? Sonic's hitboxes are small compared to the rest of his body and most other smasher's attacks, which means he can get overwhelmed by any wisely timed or predicted attack. I imagined that was implemented so Sonic doesn't pull a Fox and rule Brawl with ZOMG LIGHTNING SPEED BUTTONS but that speculation is kinda irrelevant to this topic. What does this mean? In any case as of right now if Sonic is predictable in any shape or form he will get owned. Someone else put this in a much better light than I could.

Aprili said:

What is this thing? That's right, predictability.

What makes this so important? Well, let's say, I see you every day before you go to school or work, and I punch you in the face. Eventually, you will learn to block me from punching you in the face, because, well, it hurts. Let's say, the first day you decide to stop me from punching you in the face, I kick you in the shin. Well, now your block isn't very effective. Get the point?

In a fighting game, this is even more important. While not as accented in Smash, it is still there. I could hit you 10 times in a row with the homing attack, if I can trick you every time into thinking that I won't do it (not that I recommend you homing attack 10 times in a row, of course). Therefore, you must always pick the option that they don't expect. A hit with your worst move is better than a miss with your best.

An important aspect of Smash is the Rock, Paper, Scissors effect. The moveset of any character involves attacks, grabs, and shields/dodges. Attacking beats out grabbing, grabbing beats out shielding, and shielding beats out attacking. Therefore, you must read your opponent to know which of the three they will do, and which way you will counter. As sonic, 99% of the time you cannot counter an attack with an attack, so you must shield, then grab if possible. This will often create very campy Sonics, but Brawl leans towards defensive players. If you want to go all out offense, play Fox in Melee, as Sonic is not for you.

In the most important aspect of your game shouldn't be your offense or defense. It shouldn't be how you combo or KO. It shouldn't even be your predictability. It should be how well you can predict your opponent. Sonic is fast, and you must be fast with him, in your sensing, processing, and reacting of every situation in a match. Read your opponent better than he reads you, and you win.

... In fact, much of what I said is common sense that you don't actively think about, and it applies to every character, just not as intensely as it does with Sonic.

Click to expand...

Secondly many of his moves are situational. They are epic in said situations but appear (and likely are) useless otherwise. You could likely take advantage of many Sonic noobs by countering his homing attack or hitting him out of his spin dash, or know that Sonic's running dash is by far his most predictable move. He's always going to use it, even if it's not particularly powerful or useful. Try and avoid using it too often if you can.

Third Part: The Homing Attack.

This strange move looks unwieldy at first, and there are so many things about it I decided to give it its own section.

For the Homing attack, I've found its best use is lag punishment. What does that mean? Predict when your foe will use a lagging attack, then bash them with this. It's especially effective if you need to get by projectile spam or trying to gimp their recovery. Yo Also you can fake out your foes into thinking you will use other attacks, then strike with this one, likely very vital for making the homing gimp actually work (InterimofZeal reports it's not easy to hit a human with). Spamming it regularly however, is grounds for leaving yourself open to attack. Press B twice to cut the amount of charging lag on Sonic's homing attack in half!

ShadowSYA's observations:

1.) The default path, i.e. where you go when no one is in striking range is diagonally downwards, say about 45 degrees below the horizontal.

2.) Sonic figures out where he goes during that huge startup lag when he's just floating in ball mode for a second or two. If you move out of that path during that time, Sonic will miss.

Click to expand...

I've tried it out and found his assessment is good.

Another thing to note is that you'll have greater success with this move when catching an opponent during their second jump. Pressure them into it if you can.

Or to put it in context (only because it's funny):

*DK gets knocked off the stage*

Sakurai: YOU MUST RECOVER--

Sonic: ***** no you can't lawl

*DK gets homing attacked by Sonic*

Rule the Fourth? THERE IS NO RULE THE FOURTH!

Part the Fifth: Other Special Moves.

We all know they look alike, we all know with a casual eye, it sucks. But that's before you learn how to use them properly.

The Spin Dashes look alike but are hardly worth anything for a KO, they're combo starters. Use them that way. If you need to recover, you can Forward b as well, though don't use it AFTER the second jump or you're stunned into it. Also note that you can help Sonic's poor horizontal air speed with this move, but beware of using your second jump.

A proper video by acidictadpole shows how Spindash chasing works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l84c2oHG-5M

It will help gimps massively.

Spring Jump should be used as an escape tactic as well as recovery. Got a Ganon on your tail? Up b out of the way, then dair back to Ganon's ugly noggin, but don't spam the dair as it's a highly predictable move. You can also use it to chase foes out and finish your air combos.

Note: lrn2dodge.

I will strengthen this compedium as better strategies evolve. So I ask you... PLEASE, suck less with Sonic and stop trying to make KO moves with unreliable attacks and use his actual strengths.

Oh, and one last thing:

Side Taunt: Spam it.

Nothing will be more grating than to hear Sonic's American voice shout "YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW" over and over again. It's the best thing to anger your foe or interrupt Link/Zelda make out sessions. SPAM IT. And even if you're not playing that version or too weeaboo for it, the running taunt just looks too **** cool. USE IT DAMMIT.

Edits:
(2/18/08) Went over current weaknesses
(2/20/08) Added InterimofZeal's video and some facts about the homing attack
(2/26/08) Added ShadowSYA's homing attack observations
(2/28/08) Added stutter step to Sonic's fsmash data
(3/1/08) Added some stuff on stutter step and the homing attack
(3/7/08) Mother****ing stickied! WOO
(3/10/08) Added some small notes in bold.
(3/14/08) Added Spindash chasing (note NOT any sort of official name)
(3/17/08) Separated Homing attack from its brethren and added a new note.
(3/19/08) Added a blurb about predictability from Aprili

Lol at that last part

Looks great so far.

And lawl at the end. XD

Nice guide there. I was wondering if you could use Homing Attack to get bac on stage when a foe is edgeguarding you, would that be smart? That would be matches which are not against counter using characters.

I've done it once. Not bad, but ill advised from above, as the lag will kill you. Use it from below (you also fly straight if no one's nearby.) You must also trust that your foe isn't expecting it, or at the least, not fast enough to counter it (see that Ike vs. Sonic video, the middle one)

this is a really good guide. iv already been incorporating pretty much all of this into my gameplay b4 i read this, but this is in a really nice guide form with videos included. good stuff

Hey, I mentioned the last part in my training video as well. That side taunt is the best mindgame in existance.

lol at the last part of your post since i intend to annoy everyone with that taunt

Wow, this guide may actually lead to more haters... after the Sonic mainers kick some tourney @$$.

its all about the running taunt...without that...I have no interest in sonic :D

yo kuja nice man you made my day nice

I see where you're coming from. I saw a few videos that made me cringe in the was that Sonic was being used. Spammed FSmashes and running attacks, virtually NO edgeguarding and what not. The guide's pretty well thought out. Hopefully when I get my hands on Brawl I won't suck as bad as I could.

Oh and, I'll be keeping it on Japanese. I like hearing the spacies talk and Jason Grifith pisses me off.

That was pretty informative. You should also add that the Homing Attack can act as a secondary use for a recovery, if you're opponent is near.

The side taunt a no-go for me though, I'll be stickin' with the short but sweet backflip with SA pose.

That would be a good taunt if Sonic wagged his finger. Unfortunately I see no finger wag.

That's because it's saved for in Subspace (He realy does shake his finger I believe there)

Sonic does do the fingerwag, it's an idle animation. He also does the foot tapping.

I know he does it. But he doesn't do it in the taunt so I can't see it whenever I want. Thus, side taunt is better.

Excellent thread Kuja! I think that Sonic might indeed turn out to be a powerful competitive player if we can get past hi priority issues.

Very nice thread this makes me wanna make sonic my second main now...

Lol with the last paragraph.

Good guide =)

lol... my main strategy was gonna be the hit, run to other side, "youre too slow" taunt combo

hahaha

ChiboSempai said:

this is a really good guide. iv already been incorporating pretty much all of this into my gameplay b4 i read this, but this is in a really nice guide form with videos included. good stuff

Click to expand...

Much thanks! A high level user recognizing my effort makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I intend to keep this thread up to date, since Sonic is incredibly hard to master and even at that may not be at the highest tier. All Sonic mains should stick with it!

ithrowthings said:

Hey, I mentioned the last part in my training video as well. That side taunt is the best mindgame in existance.

Click to expand...

It'll be an even better mindgame in English since Griffith's rendition of that taunt is so annoying. Well played, Griffith. Well played.

I agree with EVERYTHING. I don't have Brawl yet, but just watching the videos I think I have a pretty good idea of how Sonic SHOULD be played. Well, let me rephrase that... "I know that the way he is currently being played is NOT the way he should be played."

As I watch Sonic vids, I constintly yell at the computer screen telling the Sonic user to foolow up his attacks by running after his opponent or just chaining together more moves. But the Sonic users seem content with letting their opponents recover. This angers and confuses me.

But I do have a quick question... "If you do a homing attack RIGHT after you KO an opponent, in what direction will you spin off to?"

So, if I smash an opponent offstage to the left, for example, and then I jump after him to get an extra hit and knock him offstage, and he dies, and has yet to "respawn," and I do a homing attack, will I move in my current velocity? Or will I homing attack his old position? Or possibly will I homing attack to his presumed new position?

hey stop this stop this right now. we all NEED to quit making sonic guides. for one very simple reason. if we all just agree with the hedgedawg and make it look like sonic is super low tier do you know what that will do...

it will weed out two types of people the type that think that like sonic but not enuff to play him if he sux... and the type that will only play him b/c they think his speed will overwelm and that he will be as OP as fox was.

if we weed out those people do you know who we are left with. the hard core sonic lovers that will play him and make him amazing no matter what. and you know what. those of us that fit in that categorie: i.e. Sonic the Hedgedawg, kuja, me as well as others will learn him, his strengths and weaknesses to the point that he will be top tier. just because there is no set of ppl that love their icon more than sonic fanboys and we will do whatever is necessary to make him great

hey stop this stop this right now. we all NEED to quit making sonic guides. for one very simple reason. if we all just agree with the hedgedawg and make it look like sonic is super low tier do you know what that will do...

it will weed out two types of people the type that think that like sonic but not enuff to play him if he sux... and the type that will only play him b/c they think his speed will overwelm and that he will be as OP as fox was.

if we weed out those people do you know who we are left with. the hard core sonic lovers that will play him and make him amazing no matter what. and you know what. those of us that fit in that categorie: i.e. Sonic the Hedgedawg, kuja, me as well as others will learn him, his strengths and weaknesses to the point that he will be top tier. just because there is no set of ppl that love their icon more than sonic fanboys and we will do whatever is necessary to make him great

K.I.D. out

I know I've said this before, but Sonic has a completely different style from the rest of the cast. And the OP proves it.

Vs. Donkeykong, did Sonic get any of his kills with the bair or the Fsmash? His big-knockback moves that people are trying to stress? No. He got them through edgegaurds and combo-chasing. We are, of course, familiar with these kinds of techniques from melee. But in Sonic's case, they take center stage. You can play fox like falcon and falcon like fox, but Sonic stands alone. Just another way that Brawl is not melee 2.0.

You rule, Kuja. You rule.

And Kid? Good plan, but you can't cockblock awesome. And rookie kids will flock to Sonic no matter what we do.

I REALLY REALLY Want to agree with this guide. But I'm afraid I'll be labeled as a fanboy if I do.

I think it's very well written though, and that if you expand on it, I'd love to read more. Even about his shortcomings really, just point them out.

Dragonbreath makes excellent points. I agree and think with Sonic the focus should be primarily edgeguards and combo-chasing, while using his high knockback moves sparingly, more as surprises rather than primary killing methods.

As a side-note though, Sonic is gonna be so awesome for casual play. I can imagine Sonic users being major item hogs wih Sonic's speed. Plus he has one of the best Final Smashes in the game.

Great well written guide Kuja. With all the negative things I've read about Sonic, I was beginning to wonder if he had any good points at all beside his speed. lol But now I've got a good idea of where to start once Brawl hits stateside.

Once again big thanks, I will touch up the first post with Sonic's ACTUAL flaws instead of this "no killing moves" nonsense.

Question, Kuja: What do you think of using Sonic's up-b as a form of intercept - dropping the springboard onto people trying to recover?

This is speculation on my part since I don't have the import, but it seems like that might be an effective way of gimping some recoveries. Especially since, with Sonic's crazy horizontal speed, you'll be able to intercept enemies as they recover from relatively far out.

You don't have to make contact with the enemy, making it relatively safe -- and dropping the spring from above them launches you high to make sure your own recovery is easy.

Edit: Anyone got any video of this technique being tried/used/failing that I could look at?

I have indeed seen that technique being used to gimp and effectively kill, although I cant find the video where I saw it. Either way, it seems rather unreliable, using the homing attack to gimp and then recovering wold probably be more effective. However, it is a nice ability to have up one's sleeve.

Homing Attack, THEN drop the spring on them to add insult to injury. =D

I've seen in happen in a Sonic vs. Toon Link video, however it's even more situational than the homing attack, so I doubt it will see much use in this fashion.

nice guide^_^

I've got a question, Kuja (or anyone else who wants to answer). In general, how much trouble does Sonic have with projectiles? I mean, aside from the fact that he has none himself. Because it seems as if any character with a reliable projectile could stop Sonic cold. Diddy looks to be especially dangerous with those stinkin bananas.

I wish I could come up with a way around this myself, but without having the game, all I can really do is get people talking about it. Plus developing combos and counters has always been the weakest part of my game, sadly.

Kuja, would you say this is smater technique against Ike?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qJgn1KTg56g

By the same guy from the first vid against DK, but this one was real quick cuz Ike's recovery apparently stinks. Although Sonic has poor priority, his air game could give you the advantage against the likes of Ike and Marth because of their relativly lackluster recovery. It would be hard geting them in the air off the stage in the first place, but once you do, Sonic should be in control

Edit: Also, he's smart by constantly staying out of Ike's huge range, and then quickly attacking when there's an opening. And then of course he pursues and gimps, which leads to easy low % kills.

^No Ike will be that stupid, but Sonic was well played there.

As far as projectile approaches go, aerials or the down b spindash work best I think, the spindash makes him low enough to dodge the spam and close in. He can also homing attack anyone who doesn't add any jumping to their projectile spamming game.

these are are all great ideas and i can t wait to use them and i would like to put forth one of my own. ive seen a few vids of zss spiking with her d-air and since sonic's d-air looks like it functions the same way it should spike, itll be just like ganons down-b which was situational but really effective. also if you are in the sky over the edge, you can time it to spike the opponent and sweetspot the edge. atleast thats how it plays out in my mind.

anyway we can get a vid. up demoing this idea

thanks in advance

Hehe obviously the CPU was dumb, but I still see it difficult for Ike to recover after some gimping.

Btw, just wantedto thank you again for making a thread that ctually tries to improve Sonic gameplay rather than jut blatanly complain about his weaknesses. I'm actually feeling confident bout Sonic now!