brawl hate, a natural part of competive sequals (historical perspective)

Brawl has arrived. finally! however as with the release of any new game, oppinons are flowing from everywhere.

then there is the common remarks:
"melee > brawl"
"brawl feels empty compared to melee"


this is only natural.

PC and FPS players have immense experience with changing versions of a game all while under the stress of competitive play. This happens with all games, such as going from counter strike 1.6 to source. or team fortress to teamfortress 2.

however FPS players have experience in paradigm shifts.

nintendo players... do not, so alot of them whine and cry more so then the FPS players.


It took 1.6 players close to 2 years to fully explore Source. when it was first released, there was the players who embraced all changes, and those who said that 1.6 will always be the competitive version. this always happens and results from players trying to adapt using all knowledge from the old game, instead of learning the new game fresh from the start. everything said here on these forums have been repeated on many others for many years, before melee even came out.


in the end, all the brawl haters will wash out or collect in a small unoticable group. brawl will slowly but surely develop a massive library of techniques and strategies.

was wavedashhing discovered in even the first month of melee? of course not.



patience.... patience is key here, and we just have to remember teenagers dont have much patience


FLETCH-
"I wish you had better examples... I played through both of those transitions, and was honestly very happy with them. Melee --> Brawl feels very different, and that's why I'm scared this is not such a good transition."

-an upcoming example will be StarCraft II, all the origional players will surely have stuff to complain about

-CS 1.6 >> Source
-Team Fortress >> TF2
-SSB 64 >> Melee
-all of the Quakes
-Halo >> Halo 2
-Halo 2 >> Halo 3

Your plea falls on deaf ears.
Thanks to society, the belief that "instant gratification" overrides any form of patience in conjunction with common sense is widely prevalent.
A shame really.
I'd love to partake in intelligent conversation and discussion over a video game filled with nostalgia, but as this is the internet, I know better than to hold onto false shreds of hope
Until then, I just choose to laugh at the ludicrousness of it all.

I wish you had better examples... I played through both of those transitions, and was honestly very happy with them. Melee --> Brawl feels very different, and that's why I'm scared this is not such a good transition.

Smash Bros. 64 -> Melee was a big change as well and look at melee now

fletch71011 said:

I wish you had better examples... I played through both of those transitions, and was honestly very happy with them. Melee --> Brawl feels very different, and that's why I'm scared this is not such a good transition.

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yesir

10CHARMELEONS

I've come to terms with the fact that Melee was a fighting game and Brawl is a party game. With out any actual competitive edge and the dumbing down of game play its no longer an actual fighter, its Nintendo Party.

The differences between Source and 1.6 are extremely minor compared to the differences between Melee and Brawl.

And the one thing I've learned from playing competitive games is that sequels are almost always inferior. Halo CE > Halo 2 > Halo 3, for instance. Halo 3 is a joke and none of the good players like it. Kind of like Brawl.

Also, new techniques in Brawl will be discovered much, much faster than in Melee. There are way more people playing Brawl and they are looking specifically for advanced tactics. When Melee was released there were few people with this mindset. We can expect the vast majority of Brawl techniques to be discovered within the next few months.

The transition from Team Fortress Classic to Team Fortress 2 is an EXCELLENT example. TF2 lost a lot of competitive edge, but TF2 is still a popular game now none of the less. I think Call of Duty 4 coming out hurt TF2's competitive scene more than TF2 itself did anyhow.

Even if there is no comboing ability, I am sure players will adjust to the fact that the game is individual hit oriented, and new players won't care.

jeez, its like you didnt even read my post pink reaper.... ppl have said the same thing about all those other games, yet they become even more advanced then their predeccesors.


btw, any game used competitivly will be feirce, all players are on equal playing feilds.

just look at checkers lol


btw, dont jump to conclusions, conclusions are being ****ing punced on a ***** in this forum.


and even if brawl did not posess depth, are any of you professionals? lol if your still hanging on to melee, and not professionally playing it, then your just weird because even IF brawl wasnt as competitive (which it is, even more so) its funner

fletch71011 said:

I wish you had better examples... I played through both of those transitions, and was honestly very happy with them. Melee --> Brawl feels very different, and that's why I'm scared this is not such a good transition.

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I'm just gonna hold up my hand here and say that statements like this are dangerous. They're easy to fabricate and even easier not to back up.

ok I dont have the game since I'm here in the UK without a modded Wii u_u but the one thing I really dont understand is the speed issue.

Brawl is clearly slower, you can just SEE it... even with fast falls and with no lag on some moves the animations characters do are just plain longer (and the game pauses to emphasize some impacts which imo is a bit needless)...

When people want to be compettitive, logic tells me that a faster game = a more compettitive game

dont get me wrong, I cant wait to play Brawl but can someone please explain to me why even compettitive players dont seem to mind the speed being taken down a notch? I know full well thers not a great deal we can do about it, but we can share opinions cant we?

I'm hoping this is my last 'negative' post on the matter q: I'l try and enjoy Brawl as much as I can! but I tell you, if I end up in that 'small unnoticable group' then you can be sure it wont be as small as you think.

You guys do realize that a game being more competitive-based does not make it better... which one is better is really relative depending on how you play. I much prefer brawl, with its aerial game and lack of wavedashing.

Shai Hulud said:

And the one thing I've learned from playing competitive games is that sequels are almost always inferior. Halo CE > Halo 2 > Halo 3, for instance. Halo 3 is a joke and none of the good players like it. Kind of like Brawl..

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That must be why a majority of the top MLG players switched to Halo 3 and enjoyed it. Wait, I meant that must be why Bungie has been listening to the requests of Halo's best, and even invites them over to refine the game. Wait, perhaps I meant that must be why the game is incredibly competitive.

Jeez, maybe I just think you're wrong. Blanket ignorant statement from Shai FTL.

Wazzle said:

with its aerial game and lack of wavedashing.

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since when does melee not have an aerial game?

I love melee aerial game, it kicks butt q:

speed does not make better.


XGRA is a racing game so fast, all skill is taken away from it (its still fun as hell though)


TF2 is at a much slower pace then the Unreal games, yet it contains MUCH more strategy and techniques.
especially with all the classes (akin to the characters of SSBB)


1. brawl is not much slower
2. even if gameplay itself was slower, this does not make it worse, this could even tighten up the importance of timing, and strategy.
3. LOOK AT CHESS, slowest game in the world, and yet one of the feircest among competition

Razorsaw said:

I'm just gonna hold up my hand here and say that statements like this are dangerous. They're easy to fabricate and even easier not to back up.

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I don't see your point, but if you don't buy that, then I could simply argue that they don't apply because they're a totally different genre of game. Or that the differences are minute in comparison to Melee and Brawl.

Not to say there are not good examples out there, it's just the OP didn't point them out (I'd look to other competitive fighters).

Is it harder to KO people in this game? It seems like it is to me...

God people, the game hasn't been out three days. Urgh, Im' so tired of this ****.

You made a really good point WR3K, but people are obviously not listening.

This is my last post in General Brawl Discussion for a while. I'll come back when people stop whining. >_>

WR3K said:

speed does not make better.


XGRA is a racing game so fast, all skill is taken away from it (its still fun as hell though)


TF2 is at a much slower pace then the Unreal games, yet it contains MUCH more strategy and techniques.
especially with all the classes (akin to the characters of SSBB)


1. brawl is not much slower
2. even if gameplay itself was slower, this does not make it worse, this could even tighten up the importance of timing, and strategy.
3. LOOK AT CHESS, slowest game in the world, and yet on of the feircest among competition

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Ha, i hardly noticed a difference between speeds. For one even though i could wavedash in melee, i didn't with my friends mainly because it wears out the controller more and I can run, which of course in brawl the fastest mode of transport is running (exclude JP's rollout, yoshi's egg roll, or any rolling move)

Just give brawl a chance and it will become competitive the way that the makers intended.

WR3K said:

3. LOOK AT CHESS, slowest game in the world, and yet one of the feircest among competition

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chess is fun but in smash you can play it's strategy at a faster pace, this so gonna boil down to personal preference q:

I like speed in games.

ooo does anyone else here play F zero? T drift/Snaking <3

If you observe the general community, you will always be angered at the amount of ignorance. And I'm not flaming anyone because there are always exceptions. But what I noticed with games are that.. For games with patches, people whine that they don't have enough ___ content. The developers announce they're coming out with that content and people start asking for other content BEFORE they get the content they asked for. I can't word it right, but it's just stupid and you just wanna slap them.

Anyway, back to Brawl. Brawl is DIFFERENT from Melee. I think that's why people are reluctant to accept it.There will always be some people that prefers an original to a sequel even if the sequel's superior. And there are some people that are afraid of changes and take time to adapt to it. I really love Brawl and prefer it much more than Melee. I even prefered 64 to Melee. The fact that you only had option of like 5 characters (and all of them being the fast characters) if you wanted win didn't really interest me.

One thing you guys have to remember is that Sakurai made the game. He made the Original SSB, SSBM, and SSBB. He knows what he's doing. Even his staffs were crazy Melee fans. The game's been out for like 2days in the US, it's too early to judge IMO.

This thread officially phails in its intentions because of the piss poor example the OP gives. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if the best examples you can give are predominantly FPS's.

Good examples of transitions between iterations of a game are other FIGHTER series, such as Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Tekken, Soul Calibur, etc.

All of those games have gone through multiple iterations (the first two more so than the last two) and each and every time the new iterations have been praised and belittled. Simply put, some people are going to like the old game better and stay with it and others will like the new game better. That's al there is to it.

Though if you think about it the transition I believe best parallels the Melee-Brawl transition was the way the Guilty Gear community reacted when Isuka released. The game was new, had a lot of fresh changes and two new characters but it generally wasn't received well at all. The new gameplay elements added to it (i.e. multi planar combat and manual turning, etc.) took away from the competitiveness of the game. The game just didn't feel like Guilty Gear anymore. As such, no one really played Isuka competitively and X2 stayed the norm.

I'm not saying that that is going to happen with brawl. In fact I highly doubt that that will happen. However, Brawl is different to the point where it definitely is not going to simply override melee. Both games have differences and advantages over each other depending on what you're looking for. Sure you can say all you want that we're going to discover X amount of awesome new techniques in due time and THEN melee will be obsolete but you don't know that for sure. Just because it happened with melee doesn't mean it's gonna happen with brawl, so all that really matters right now is how brawl plays NOW. And the way it plays now, I can't see it overriding brawl nor vise versa.

well said fellow supporters and logical thinkers, but i think i am out for the night (i live 6 hours ahead of US time, but im still an american)


frozen flame- good points, however tbh SSBB is the only fighter i still play, tekken and soul caliber are long gone in my experience with them.


but please, bring up all examples you can of games in a similar genre to increase my "intension's" success.

I know my opinion doesn't count, considering I don't have the post count to back it up. But I though I might shed a little "personal" light on this topic.

I just have to say, in my experience with competitive gaming, the original poster is right, sequels tend to be labeled horrible compared to their predecessor.

It seems like most of the commotion on this board comes from not having "l-cancleing","wavedashing", or any other advance techniques. Just remember, it takes time to find all these techniques out. For example, in Halo1, "BLB", "XXY", "Nade launching" and many other techniques were necessary in professional play. However, they were left out in Halo2. After a few months of Halo2's release, the new set of techniques risen (BXR,BXB,RRXYY). All I'm really trying to say is, it just takes time to find out new techniques... I'm pretty sure as time goes on, more and more people will start transitioning...

Truley, It all comes down to whether you want to play for fun or professionally. If its for fun, by all means go play whatever game you want. As for professionally, Melee wont last any longer now with brawls release - especially in the eyes of the bigger tournaments (MLG/EVO). If you want to make money playing video games professionally, you have to put these harsh transitions aside (like all professional video gamers) and perfect brawl instead of complain about every little flaw about it.

-Oryan

well said oryan, night night folks

I'm probably just going to end up playing both games.

Brawl over long distances and melee with friends IRL or something like that...

WR3K said:

3. LOOK AT CHESS, slowest game in the world, and yet one of the feircest among competition

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I just have to say that you are ****ing ********. Chess is a great game because it's easy to play, but hard to master. If they made a sequel to chess and restrained the order in which players can move their pieces, people wouldn't say it's a good game because it originated from one.

Brawl feels exactly the same, you enter in a brand new game hoping to dig more into your character's movement and fluidity just to be stuck with a floaty, technically ******** opus. You mentionned it, people had problems adapting to CS source because it had ********/laggy hitboxes, the main reason why I didn't felt like selling my old game for a graphically superior sequel.

correction, chess evolved over centuries and the rules and peices were changed many times.... just like the design layout and programming of brawl

infact, i would say chess was sequel after sequel after sequel... and in the end... games are games, and brawl is awesome yet still competitive.



edit: owned

Except Brawl is inferior to Melee.

The only enhancements were graphics, music, more characters, a better 1p mode.

In no way is this a melee killer, nore will it be.

just out of curiosity, how long have you been playing brawl? how about melee?



to each his own in the end though...

almightypancake said:

That must be why a majority of the top MLG players switched to Halo 3 and enjoyed it. Wait, I meant that must be why Bungie has been listening to the requests of Halo's best, and even invites them over to refine the game. Wait, perhaps I meant that must be why the game is incredibly competitive.

Jeez, maybe I just think you're wrong. Blanket ignorant statement from Shai FTL.

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A majority of the noobs, maybe. Most of the good players from Halo 2 hated Halo 3. Maybe they've since changed their minds. I don't know because I quit Halo.

And Bungie doesn't give a **** about competitive gaming. Quit acting like you know what you're talking about.

You must be mentally challenged, chess' been the same since the 15th century where it gained its almost final form. Right now, instead, people who had experience from the two previous title are stuck with some awkward changes which don't follow what the series been up to in terms of competitive needs.

Furthermore, if you think brawl is a competitive title, give me reasons as to why you think so. I'd be interested in your opinion instead of facing self-made conclusions you pulled out of nowhere.

WR3K said:

just out of curiosity, how long have you been playing brawl? how about melee?



to each his own in the end though...

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No ones saying you can't play an inferior game, I don't believe anyone has a knife to your throat forcing you to play otherwise.

and the time I've spent playing brawl as opposed to melee holds no merit, as it doens't take long to realize which game is superior.

My friends and I played some 100+ matches last night, and although I was having lots of fun, the game felt very, very different, but in a way that, at first, didn't felt right to me. I know I'm gonna' play Brawl relatively non-stop in the years to come. But, as I was playing I couldn't help but feel like I wanted more from the gameplay. The lack of combos, the lack of weight, etc.; all these changes sure make for a hell of a fun party game, yet it felt like the depth that drove Melee into stardom was gone.

I'm sure the tecniques for Brawl will be developed, and I'm sure the game will be taken to a higher level, but it won't be as high as Melee's, IMO. Brawl somewhat feels like Mario Kart now: it's a challenging game; it takes skill as well as some metagaming, but an experienced player will see everything MK has to offer in a few months (MKDS included).

That being said, competitive smahers need to remember that Nintendo created Smash to have everyone just have a good time, emphasis on everyone. Melee, by way of accident, turned out to go against this principle, where both n00bs and just-for-fun players were put off by the competitive scene. Thus, it was fixed in Brawl. Now, it's dumb to criticize Nintendo for not supporting the competitive scene, because that's simply who Nintendo isn't (and look how far it's taken them). Criticizing Nintendo for being party- and inclusive-oriented is like criticizing Microsoft for being shooter- and exclusive-oriented: if you don't like it, then Nintendo games aren't for you, period.

In any case, before I happened upon competitive gaming, Melee was simply an outstanding showcase of everything Nintendo is, was and will be (hence the pitting of many Nintendo characters against each other, as well as all the emphasis on Nintendo memorabilia). Brawl is an expanded version of this (with the ability to try classic games, plus stickers, and many more characters). And now that I think of it, I had much more fun with Melee before the competitive scene even existed, and I'm sure I will have much more fun with Brawl. And honestly, I'll take fun over competition any day.

After realizing this, I noticed that all the Brawl changes were for the better. Plus, it takes much more skill to beat someone with the same techniques he or she has, than to beat someone with techniques that he or she doesn't know. Some people are just afraid their elite status will be broken; they're just afraid to try something new.

Brawl FTW!

Smash is not chess. Chess is not even a videogame. Stop trying to compare Smash with Poker and Chess or anything else. Not all sports are the same.

I'm sure football would be really fun if there were a speed limit to how fast you could move on the field.

Let's not forget about two very glaring examples of bad sequels:
Tekken 4 and Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX.

Tekken 4 was considered so inferior to 3 that the Tekken community stuck with Tekken 3 (and Tag). EX was inferior to GNT4 so the GNT-community stuck with GNT4.

Just because a game is new and a sequel does not mean it's better than what came before and that we have to switch. Just to put things into perspective. If Brawl is indeed better or at least not too inferior to Melee, then the switch will occur. If not, then either the fanboys who desperately want to switch will whine their way to a switch or people will wise up and follow the examples of the GNT and Tekken communities.

gamingotaku said:

Some people are just afraid their elite status will be broken; they're just afraid to try something new.

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This is probably why people go to tournaments, to meet players that have absolutely no idea of what's up in this community.

Moron.

WR3K said:

was wavedashhing discovered in even the first month of melee? of course not.

patience.... patience is key here, and we just have to remember teenagers dont have much patience

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Disagreement: compared to the slow pace that we originally took in dissecting Melee, we are pouncing on this game and rapidly tearing it apart, trying to discover ANYTHING that could get an advanced technique named after ourselves. Although, maybe it's not that fast, but it's definitely MUCH more attention than Melee got at first.

On topic though, I'm loving brawl so far, and ready to continue the transition.

gamingotaku said:

My friends and I played some 100+ matches last night, and although I was having lots of fun, the game felt very, very different, but in a way that, at first, didn't felt right to me. I know I'm gonna' play Brawl relatively non-stop in the years to come. But, as I was playing I couldn't help but feel like I wanted more from the gameplay. The lack of combos, the lack of weight, etc.; all these changes sure make for a hell of a fun party game, yet it felt like the depth that drove Melee into stardom was gone.

I'm sure the tecniques for Brawl will be developed, and I'm sure the game will be taken to a higher level, but it won't be as high as Melee's, IMO. Brawl somewhat feels like Mario Kart now: it's a challenging game; it takes skill as well as some metagaming, but an experienced player will see everything MK has to offer in a few months (MKDS included).

That being said, competitive smahers need to remember that Nintendo created Smash to have everyone just have a good time, emphasis on everyone. Melee, by way of accident, turned out to go against this principle, where both n00bs and just-for-fun players were put off by the competitive scene. Thus, it was fixed in Brawl. Now, it's dumb to criticize Nintendo for not supporting the competitive scene, because that's simply who Nintendo isn't (and look how far it's taken them). Criticizing Nintendo for being party- and inclusive-oriented is like criticizing Microsoft for being shooter-oriented: if you don't like it, then Nintendo games aren't for you, period.

In any case, before I happened upon competitive gaming, Melee was simply an outstanding showcase of everything Nintendo is, was and will be (hence the pitting of many Nintendo characters against each other, as well as all the emphasis on Nintendo memorabilia). Brawl is an expanded version of this (with the ability to try classic games, plus stickers, and many more characters). And now that I think of it, I had much more fun with Melee before the competitive scene even existed, and I'm sure I will have much more fun with Brawl. And honestly, I'll take fun over competition any day.

After realizing this, I noticed that all the Brawl changes were for the better. Plus, it takes much more skill to beat someone with the same techniques he or she has, than to beat someone with techniques that he or she doesn't know. Some people are just afraid their elite status will be broken; they're just afraid to try something new.

Brawl FTW!

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wow, didnt know you were for brawl till the last half lol!

People have the right to complain.

If somebody feels that Brawl is not good, he should be respected just as one who commends Brawl. I love Brawl. I think it's the best game in the series. You may not think that. That's fine.

I'm not going to get into an argument about this because it is futile to argue over one's opinion. There is no opinion that governs over the other. Just lay back. Not everyone agrees with you.

gamingotaku said:

Some people are just afraid their elite status will be broken; they're just afraid to try something new.

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cF=) said:

This is probably why people go to tournaments, to meet players that have absolutely no idea of what's up in this community.

Moron.

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Case in point.