Runeblade279
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2008
- Messages
- 154
It's pretty well established by now that Falcon has troubles with small, disjointed, quick, characters with good priority, along with a few other characters such as ZSS and the spaces.
This is the thread for teh ultimates discussion of troublesome matchups that Falcon has.
Update record:
4/14/08 - Compilation update! New Zelda and Kirby section, added Olimar info, brief Sonic section.
3/24/08 - Clarified some Marth info so it's more helpful.
3/22/08 - Compiled all information in the thread so far. Got Pit, MK, Olimar, Wolf, Marth, Pikachu, and ZSS info.
Currently compiled information on matchups:
Pit:
Troubles - Arrow Spam, side+B, Aerials priority beats yours
Solutions - The arrow spam can be gotten around via shielding, spot dodging, or jumping and air dodging. Rolling is not recommended. His ground attacks aren't too amazing, use tilts to outrange him (contributed by Keykid19), and spot dodge side+B, it's not so hard to predict. Dsmash when he rolls or to catch after side+Bs is a good option. His smashes are laggy, especially his fsmash, so use that to your advantage. In the air, do not approach from above, and avoid his uair, try and go from below with your own uairs. If he tries to SH his nair or go at you from the air, use utilt, it has a great hitbox range and decent knockback, I've KOed with it before.
Olimar:
Troubles - Projectile pikmin, shield grab, fsmash and usmash, shield grab, uair, shield grab, did i mention the shield grab?
Solutions - Do. Not. Go. From. Above. Ever. Try and spot dodge his fsmash/pikmin/grab, cause they look similar, and if you play it smart you can avoid all of them with this one move. Don't get too close and stay there, his usmash is really really quick. Go for grabs and uairs, try and stay aggressive else you'll get pikmin spammed, but do not hit his shield if at all possible. (hard I know) Once you get him off, EDGEHOG like a mofo, cause it works. Here's a quote for Keykid19, edgehogging details:
Troubles - Awesome priority, quick attacks, chains really well, good recovery
Solutions - Three of his moves equals one of yours power-wise. Stay on your toes with your dodges, use grabs to lead into uairs, and avoid his fair, it's fast. If he glides, punish with a knee for great justice, or if that's too risky, uair away. Try and space to keep out of mach tornado. Here's a few priority discoveries by Keykid19:
Wolf:
Troubles - Laser spam, hard to approach, quick and powerful, reflector counters alot of your moves and stuns, laser spam
Solutions - Get around the laser spam the same way you deal with Pit's only be more defensive. His attacks are far more deadly, so air dodge > shield > grab to get to him is a good approach, but mix it up, don't be predictable. Once you play him enough, his attacks are very predictable themselves, they all have ending lag, and make him move around usually. Wolf gets owned by spot dodges, his ending lag is his downfall, punish him with tilts and go utilt or a smash attack for the kill. His aerial moves for the most part are also predictable, but his dair spikes and has beginning lag, unlike alot of his other moves, so watch for it, he might surprise you.
Marth:
Troubles - Range, counter, ground moves overall are more combo-y
Solutions - His range is worse from melee. Period. It's shorter and not as powerful, BUT it's still better than yours and still kills. His fair has a bit more lag to it, so if you dodge it, you can hit him before he's done. His nair is still annoying, but not quite as deadly. His uair is kind of easy to see coming, but it's quick. His dair is still laggy, and no more comboing into it, but watch out anyway. Your uair wins here, so use your grabs to put him up there, his ground game is stronger now. If he attempts to counter, either wait and then punish, or throw a falcon dive out there for mindgames, it really messes them up. Good general strategy here is just space and dodge so you don't get hit by his good moves, then punish him.
Pikachu:
Troubles - Large hitboxes, good priority, small
Solutions - (All info following contributed by Keykid19) If they spam down B, and you're not online, pause the game and laugh for a minute, then continue with spacing correctly and punishing the horrendous ending lag on that move. You can like.. fsmash. Awesome. But only sucky pikas spam down B all the time. Watch out for Dsmash, don't spot dodge it, it hits for too long. Fsmash as well, it can fake you with it's tiny beginning lag, but once you get used to it it's easy to dodge and punish. Spacing owns pikachu, dashing As, falcon kick, stutter step Fsmash, shield grab > uair are all great moves when properly spaced against pikachu. Don't forget to bring your rat poison to coat your knee with. =D
Zero Suit Samus:
Troubles - Range on whip moves, priority, quick, aerials excluding dair ****
Solutions - All her range moves are easy to see coming, spot dodge them. Side+B, Fsmash are the two most dangerous. Watch her Usmash, don't try dair whilst falling down, but SH lagless dair is a valid approach against Zamus, long as you don't spam it. Do -not- get hit by her Dsmash, the starting animation is her pointing the gun at the ground with sparkles. It paralyzes for like.. 20 god **** minutes, she can fsmash or side+B you out of it, it hurts. Don't get hit by it. When taking her in the air, attempt to stay below her, it isn't too hard since she falls like a piece of paper, soooo slow. If she starts to dair, air dodge and then punish the ending lag when she lands. Her bair and fair are great KO moves, the bair comes out really quick, and the fair does two kicks, just make sure to avoid getting hit by the second. The first of them chains in well, so just avoid it in general. Her model is fairly easy to knee though, so take advantage of that when she's recovering, but don't get spiked by her Up-B, heh. Her uair will beat you alot of the time, so avoid it if at all possible. Air dodging is great here, cause once you get below her, she can't really punish that well.
Zelda:
Troubles - Side + B campage, High Priority, LONG LASTING, smashes, bloody annoying jab/tilts, shield knockback is great
Solutions - There has been much conflict over what Falcon can/cannot, should/should not do to fight against Zelda. General stuff I've seen:
- Falcon Kick for spacing, dodge side+B
- Her dair sucks! Uair away!
- Side+B whiffed is laggy, grab or hit her after dodging if you didn't falcon kick
- Bait and puniiish, as usual
- In case of guarding against smashes, spot dodging is nigh useless, rolling is a good option, and if you shield, it's -always- longer than you think, don't be fooled.
- Her jab and tilts are good, but you outrange them with yours! =D
Sonic:
Troubles - Faster than you... Faster than you?
Solutions - Predictable and pretty ****ty priority, which is saying something cause yours sucks. Just watch out for his uair, it's got a good hitbox and it's mean to juggle with since he's so fast. Sonic isn't too much trouble if you just know his moves and react.
Kirby:
Troubles - Short hitbox, good edgeguard, hard to pursue, can stop juggling easily
Solutions - Take advantage of his short range on the ground, and use what has become a signature Falcon strategy for me -- knock them off with something, just about anything, and then chase them into oblivion with whatever aerial move will hit. Kirby's light, and this strategy is especially effective against lighter characters. Off-the-edge aerial pressure is one of Falcon's greatest assets imo. But if you're just chasing off a throw, be wary, he can use final cutter to end your juggle. If you dodge it, you may be able to get a hit in on his ending lag though. For his edgeguard of punches, use the roll option and you should be able to get up. (contributed by Mann)
Note that if you're having trouble with another character heretofore unmentioned don't be afraid to start discussion on that too, don't feel like a noob for not being good against a certain character.
Discuss away!
This is the thread for teh ultimates discussion of troublesome matchups that Falcon has.
Update record:
4/14/08 - Compilation update! New Zelda and Kirby section, added Olimar info, brief Sonic section.
3/24/08 - Clarified some Marth info so it's more helpful.
3/22/08 - Compiled all information in the thread so far. Got Pit, MK, Olimar, Wolf, Marth, Pikachu, and ZSS info.
Currently compiled information on matchups:
Pit:
Troubles - Arrow Spam, side+B, Aerials priority beats yours
Solutions - The arrow spam can be gotten around via shielding, spot dodging, or jumping and air dodging. Rolling is not recommended. His ground attacks aren't too amazing, use tilts to outrange him (contributed by Keykid19), and spot dodge side+B, it's not so hard to predict. Dsmash when he rolls or to catch after side+Bs is a good option. His smashes are laggy, especially his fsmash, so use that to your advantage. In the air, do not approach from above, and avoid his uair, try and go from below with your own uairs. If he tries to SH his nair or go at you from the air, use utilt, it has a great hitbox range and decent knockback, I've KOed with it before.
Olimar:
Troubles - Projectile pikmin, shield grab, fsmash and usmash, shield grab, uair, shield grab, did i mention the shield grab?
Solutions - Do. Not. Go. From. Above. Ever. Try and spot dodge his fsmash/pikmin/grab, cause they look similar, and if you play it smart you can avoid all of them with this one move. Don't get too close and stay there, his usmash is really really quick. Go for grabs and uairs, try and stay aggressive else you'll get pikmin spammed, but do not hit his shield if at all possible. (hard I know) Once you get him off, EDGEHOG like a mofo, cause it works. Here's a quote for Keykid19, edgehogging details:
The master of anti-Olimar, Keykid19 returns with more long-winded, yet ultimately useful info!When edgehogging watch out for his Fair because he'll do it and then immediately go into UpB so he'll get the edge and you will die if you have very much damage at all due to the level spike. If you actually survive you'll probably die anyway because he'll edgehog you. lol If you have a hanging Olimar (on the edge but down a ways due to many Pikmin in the chain) just get as close as you can to the edge and do Nair because you have a pretty good chance of hitting him if he pulls up to the edge which he'll probably do once you're below it and coming at him hanging there. If you're facing the right way Bair is probably a better option because it lasts so long and is more powerful anyways. This situation doesn't arise that much but when it does it's good to have a tactic to combat it.
Meta Knight:Dsmash is very easily Kneed if you jump to dodge it. I find myself jumping a lot against offensive Olimars even though he has the advantage when I'm above him because his Fsmash, Dsmash, grab, and Side B (pretty much all of his ranged forward attacks) leave him wide open for punishment from above. Honestly even with his small frame I'm able to sweetspot him fairly regularly if I jump over those moves. You have to be careful when you jump though because his Usmash, Utilt, and sometimes his UpB will hurt you if you leave yourself open to them. UpB is not really much of an issue because it's hardly ever used on the ground as an attack but if the player does like to do that then just jump -> air dodge -> Nair or pass behind him and Bair. Fair out of air dodge is hard to get right so don't try it.
Olimar, while powerful on the ground and when below you in the air, is pretty much a sitting duck when he's in the air above you. Uair kills him so make sure to use that. BUair (backwards Uair) is also a pretty useful technique against him so use that as well. All of his aerials have terrible reach so try to be as aggressive as possible when you've got him off the ground. If you're above him do the exact opposite and be as defensive as possible because his Uair is a beast against you just like yours is against him. Airdodge and evasively DI your way to the ground.
Once on the ground your best moves are Running A, Falcon Kick, Raptor Boost, and grab. Raptor Boost is your best friend against aggressive Olimars because it will kill thrown Pikmin (SideB) unless it has been decayed through spamming (which may be the case against Olimar since the move is so essential to your ground game against him but most of the time I find that it kills thrown Pikmin anyways). Falcon Kick has the same great qualities but unfortunately you slow down when kicking thrown Pikmin so chances are that you will end up stopping right in Olimar's Fsmash or Dsmash range (this is bad). Raptor Boost on the other hand stops you right in place when you hit the Pikmin so you never get in range of any Olimar Smashes. Once you're in his Smash range start your aerial attack because if you stay on the ground you will be demolished. The Knee is pretty useful because it last so long so you can SH-Knee and then FF with the gimp. Usually the gimp is bad but I find it useful here because if you trip Olimar you have better options. Otherwise just play with your aerials and approaches and don't let him sense a pattern. It's ok to switch things up and use a tilt here and there as well just to keep him guessing.
The grab is probably your best tool though. Work Olimar over to an edge and then make grabbing him your number one priority. Once you have him throw him off the edge and then SH-ANYTHING to hit him. Seriously any move will work. The best situation you can have is to grab him with your back to the edge, then Bthrow into Bair -> DJ -> Bair -> Falcon Dive. If he doesn't air dodge it then you've just given yourself a great chance of killing him due to his gimp recovery. He'll be too low to knock you away from the edge with any aerials and after then second Bair you'll be able to beat him to the edge. SCORE! 1 KO for you. Now of course this won't work against all players or 100% of the time but it is a pretty solid tactic which will result in an easy KO for you if you pull it off. It seriously can work when he's around 40% so even if he only has 40% and you have 124% you just KOed him first and have the upper hand. Beating Olimar is all about gimping him when he's off the edge, and with Falcon it's thankfully not that hard to do. If Olimar had a non-tether recovery there would be almost no hope of beating him as Falcon but thanks to his tether combined with Falcon's above average edgeguarding skills you have a decent shot. You may still lose even with all of these tactics but at least they give you a shot (well they give me a shot at least).
Troubles - Awesome priority, quick attacks, chains really well, good recovery
Solutions - Three of his moves equals one of yours power-wise. Stay on your toes with your dodges, use grabs to lead into uairs, and avoid his fair, it's fast. If he glides, punish with a knee for great justice, or if that's too risky, uair away. Try and space to keep out of mach tornado. Here's a few priority discoveries by Keykid19:
Useful stuff man, great to know, thanks.Update on Metaknight:
Messing around in Training Mode again and I'd say that Falcon Kick is THE move to use against Meta. It breaks through his held A, his Side B drill (which really sucks by the way but this helps a lot), and his B tornado. Utilt and Dtilt also are options against the held A but Falcon Punch doesn't consistently break through it unless you are more than barely out of his A range. So now here's how countering his most annoying moves stands:
B Tornado:
Raptor Boost (ground or aerial)
Falcon Kick
Side B Drill:
Falcon Kick (nothing else works that I've seen at least so this is crucial)
A Spam:
Utilt
Dtilt
Falcon Kick
Wolf:
Troubles - Laser spam, hard to approach, quick and powerful, reflector counters alot of your moves and stuns, laser spam
Solutions - Get around the laser spam the same way you deal with Pit's only be more defensive. His attacks are far more deadly, so air dodge > shield > grab to get to him is a good approach, but mix it up, don't be predictable. Once you play him enough, his attacks are very predictable themselves, they all have ending lag, and make him move around usually. Wolf gets owned by spot dodges, his ending lag is his downfall, punish him with tilts and go utilt or a smash attack for the kill. His aerial moves for the most part are also predictable, but his dair spikes and has beginning lag, unlike alot of his other moves, so watch for it, he might surprise you.
Marth:
Troubles - Range, counter, ground moves overall are more combo-y
Solutions - His range is worse from melee. Period. It's shorter and not as powerful, BUT it's still better than yours and still kills. His fair has a bit more lag to it, so if you dodge it, you can hit him before he's done. His nair is still annoying, but not quite as deadly. His uair is kind of easy to see coming, but it's quick. His dair is still laggy, and no more comboing into it, but watch out anyway. Your uair wins here, so use your grabs to put him up there, his ground game is stronger now. If he attempts to counter, either wait and then punish, or throw a falcon dive out there for mindgames, it really messes them up. Good general strategy here is just space and dodge so you don't get hit by his good moves, then punish him.
Pikachu:
Troubles - Large hitboxes, good priority, small
Solutions - (All info following contributed by Keykid19) If they spam down B, and you're not online, pause the game and laugh for a minute, then continue with spacing correctly and punishing the horrendous ending lag on that move. You can like.. fsmash. Awesome. But only sucky pikas spam down B all the time. Watch out for Dsmash, don't spot dodge it, it hits for too long. Fsmash as well, it can fake you with it's tiny beginning lag, but once you get used to it it's easy to dodge and punish. Spacing owns pikachu, dashing As, falcon kick, stutter step Fsmash, shield grab > uair are all great moves when properly spaced against pikachu. Don't forget to bring your rat poison to coat your knee with. =D
Zero Suit Samus:
Troubles - Range on whip moves, priority, quick, aerials excluding dair ****
Solutions - All her range moves are easy to see coming, spot dodge them. Side+B, Fsmash are the two most dangerous. Watch her Usmash, don't try dair whilst falling down, but SH lagless dair is a valid approach against Zamus, long as you don't spam it. Do -not- get hit by her Dsmash, the starting animation is her pointing the gun at the ground with sparkles. It paralyzes for like.. 20 god **** minutes, she can fsmash or side+B you out of it, it hurts. Don't get hit by it. When taking her in the air, attempt to stay below her, it isn't too hard since she falls like a piece of paper, soooo slow. If she starts to dair, air dodge and then punish the ending lag when she lands. Her bair and fair are great KO moves, the bair comes out really quick, and the fair does two kicks, just make sure to avoid getting hit by the second. The first of them chains in well, so just avoid it in general. Her model is fairly easy to knee though, so take advantage of that when she's recovering, but don't get spiked by her Up-B, heh. Her uair will beat you alot of the time, so avoid it if at all possible. Air dodging is great here, cause once you get below her, she can't really punish that well.
Zelda:
Troubles - Side + B campage, High Priority, LONG LASTING, smashes, bloody annoying jab/tilts, shield knockback is great
Solutions - There has been much conflict over what Falcon can/cannot, should/should not do to fight against Zelda. General stuff I've seen:
- Falcon Kick for spacing, dodge side+B
- Her dair sucks! Uair away!
- Side+B whiffed is laggy, grab or hit her after dodging if you didn't falcon kick
- Bait and puniiish, as usual
- In case of guarding against smashes, spot dodging is nigh useless, rolling is a good option, and if you shield, it's -always- longer than you think, don't be fooled.
- Her jab and tilts are good, but you outrange them with yours! =D
Sonic:
Troubles - Faster than you... Faster than you?
Solutions - Predictable and pretty ****ty priority, which is saying something cause yours sucks. Just watch out for his uair, it's got a good hitbox and it's mean to juggle with since he's so fast. Sonic isn't too much trouble if you just know his moves and react.
Kirby:
Troubles - Short hitbox, good edgeguard, hard to pursue, can stop juggling easily
Solutions - Take advantage of his short range on the ground, and use what has become a signature Falcon strategy for me -- knock them off with something, just about anything, and then chase them into oblivion with whatever aerial move will hit. Kirby's light, and this strategy is especially effective against lighter characters. Off-the-edge aerial pressure is one of Falcon's greatest assets imo. But if you're just chasing off a throw, be wary, he can use final cutter to end your juggle. If you dodge it, you may be able to get a hit in on his ending lag though. For his edgeguard of punches, use the roll option and you should be able to get up. (contributed by Mann)
Note that if you're having trouble with another character heretofore unmentioned don't be afraid to start discussion on that too, don't feel like a noob for not being good against a certain character.
Discuss away!