choknater
Smash Obsessed
Alright, well I'm finally back. I gave up smashboards for lent, so I've been away for 40 days...
And I'm surprised at how little has been discussed about some real cool Ice Climbers tactics. A lot of their abilities have been discovered, but has no one discussed anything about using all of them effectively? Have we forgotten about discussing basic combos and effectively dealing damage? It seems with brawl's release, discovering new stuff is all people care about.
So I've been playing IC's for a little while now and I'll compile some notes for you guys to discuss.... not central topic in general, just an overall picture of the Ice Climbers.
1. Blizzards
First thing to point out: Without wavedashing, I first thought of ways to deal with their spacing game... Running and walking around leave them way more open than other characters because their speed isn't so hot, and it seems their range has decreased. There's a solution though... You guys really need to watch this video, has it been posted yet?
on fairuzons' YouTube channel, there's an IC's vs Peach vid... by far the most talented IC's I've seen so far. This vid really opened me up to the new IC's. The Peach player isn't so good, but wow, check out the IC's desynching.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3GM3odhBdro
More about his desynching later... let's talk about blizzards. They were the IC's longest range attack and also quite useful in melee (at least... I used it a lot. That's because my playstyle in melee didn't require a lot of grabs lol.) And it's improved! It causes more stun now so it's less punishable when used. Plus the freeze happens at lower percentages and happens more frequently at close range, such as out of grabs!
The IC's in fairuzons' vid used it as a very effective approach! Desynched and alternating short hop blizzards really covers your front effectively. Plus, since people can't move across the stage as quickly or effectively in this game without dash cancels or wavedashing... basically blizzards will cover your front against most characters' approaches. Do we have something here? I think we do. Blizzard is a great move, blow away! Now, how do we use this effectively...?
2. The safest desynch
Okay, once again the guy in fairuzons' vid wins on this one. Pivot grabs make Nana do a pivot grab and Popo rolls backwards, and you can desynch right away. Ice blocks and sh blizzards are most effective here. Try to perfect the timing of being able to do any move while desynching, such as dash attacks or tilts! I'm used to this already because it is even easier to stay desynched than in Melee. Here's some notes on desynching:
- It's hard to stay desynched sometimes when you're doing short hop ice blocks with Popo. Nana will recover quickly to resynch with you and throw an ice block also.
- Nana can now solo squall. It can keep someone stuck in a combo for Popo to attack.
- Once again, sh blizzards are your friend!!! If the person doesn't get frozen, this can set up grabs. Any grab setup is useful, I suppose.
- Desynched c-stick smashes aren't really that effective anymore. It seems the IC's are smaller, and their hammers are smaller... All three smashes cover less range.
- Ice blocks can still be chased for approaching.
Just like in melee, the best desynch requires rolling away. Let this be a message to all of you: desynching is WAY too risky unless you can cover yourself! It always has been. Desynching right in your opponent's face with a dash dance is just asking to be separated.
3. More on ice blocks
Whenever I use them, I always have this thought in my head: "Whenever I hit someone with an ice block, I can usually shield the next attack..."
This wasn't always true in melee, but it is now. Granted, it's not ALWAYS true, because let's say you hit Metaknight with a block and he's right in front of you, and he does his jab slashes. Then that's an exception. But yes, it takes a move THAT fast to counter the ice blocks. As long as it hits your opponent, you're usually safe and you can shield or roll away from the next attack. Gotta love hitstun and everything.
Also, check out that huge range! Slopes and walls affect them nicely too. These babies can go all the way across the Bridge of Eldin. That could be a nice stage for them...
4. GRABS!
a. nana grabbing, and cging
Alright! Grabs... they are what made the IC's in melee. And pretty much, it still makes them who they are. With grabs being utter garbage now in brawl (with a few exceptions like Dedede and DK), it's a nice relief to have a character who can still combo effectively off them. But 0-deaths don't really seem possible anymore... Oh yeah, speaking of chain grabs:
People make a big fuss over their dthrow chain. Okay guys, it might look infinite, but this dumb thing is difficult for me to perform. And even if you DO master it, it does damage slowly... Meaning even if you get like 5 throws off, you've only done 30 or so damage. You're better off just c-sticking off the grab. If you guys want to add this to your gameplay, go for it! Any cg is nice... but don't be johnning after a tourney becaused you missed a cg when a smash would've been a better choice.
Regrabbing after bthrow is also very interesting, and I would love to try cging across FD and then bthrowing, and then cging all the way across again. Ownage!
But anyways, alternate grabs are hard for me. It'll take me a while to get the timing down... if you guys are good at it, more power to you.
b. grab combos
YAYUHZZZ! These are so sick. Here's some notes:
- dthrow fair can be used reliably at low %'s. Usually you can do it about twice from 0% but after that they'll start hitting the ground.
- You can still do ChuDat combo! Usually right after their % is too high to chain from dthrow fair again. Just use dthrow fair to a smash. Watch for techs, because people start doing this after a while.
- fthrow to fair is still possible and I need to work on the timing
- bthrow/fthrow to fair is a really awesome looking spike, and meteor cancelling isn't done as effectively in melee anymore. Yell YAYUHZZ if you score a KO off this spike.
- At high %'s over a hundred or something, people can DI out of the dthrow before getting hit by the fair. Or sometimes, they will be hit by the horizontal hitbox of the fair instead of getting spiked, which is still good. Or maybe I'm just timing it wrong? We should keep testing the throw combos cuz they are sweet.
- Nana isn't as free to move when Popo grabs, but the other way around, it is amazing. Instead of cging, how about trying Nana grab once, do a throw, and comboing with Popo? Lots of cool possibilities here. Popo dthrow, nana fthrow, popo running usmash. Something like that.
c. C-sticking during grabs.
Wobbling is no longer possible, but you can still use the c-stick or tilts to damage people while they're in the grab. Pressing A for tilts and smashes is a little more difficult because the grab headbutts are faster. It's harder to time. But pressing the c-stick no longer throws: It does smash attacks for Nana (all 3 connect) and it does headbutts for Popo. If your opponent is at a high %, mash c-stick forward to get a couple headbutts and an fsmash in while they're grabbed, and THEN proceed to combo. Once again, imagine the possiblities. Grab, fsmash, dthrow fair, or perhaps dthrow regrab... whatever!
- Spamming c-sticks on grabs at high %'s is your most reliable way to KO. Usually after one smash attack, the next one will knock your opponent out of the grab. At high %'s you can confuse DI by c-sticking forward and then up. If they DI up, they could die.
- Memorize the speed of the smashes when c-sticking. Usmash is a little slower.
- Remember how holding down while c-sticking down does a down tilt? Well, while in a grab, you can c-stick smash someone for damage, and then press down and c-stick down for a down tilt. This will knock them off the grab at a HARSH HORIZONTAL ANGLE. Ridiculous KO potential... that's IF you can pull it off by an edge. Be careful not to dthrow when pressing down.
5. Approaching
Without WD, it seems pretty limited. Pretty much you've got running usmash, dash attack, and grab... Plus ice block and blizzard chases. SH aerials can't really be used to approach that well. Guys, that isn't a lot of possibilities... Basically their lack of an approaching game could force them to camp, and from my experience camping doesn't work so hot with Ice Climbers... Once somebody knows how to approach them, they are stuck in an ineffective defensive position. And even though Nana is smarter now, being separated is still a bad thing...
Pretty much the only way I approach is with the sh blizzards, or playing rock-paper-scissors with grabs and dash attacks. Squall is also a decent approach, but make sure they have the light around their hammers... if they don't, that means they are desynched. Synched squalls have an upward knockback at the end which you want.
6. Uairs are still amazing
If someone's on top of you, uair them. Please do this. It was one of their best moves in melee and you should keep using it. Priority/range decreased, but who cares... The IC's work best on the ground, and if someone's in the air, uair is your move to use.
7. Whiffed grabs are less punishable
Because moves are slower and basically everything is slower than it was in melee, that includes your opponent's movement and counter attacks. Your whiffed grabs have less delay so don't be afraid to take this risky approach. Remember, people can pressure you in brawl, but they can't 0-death you. However, you're IC's, perhaps you can 0-death them off a grab. If not... at least 0-70% or something. Too good.
8. Fighting solo...
Hm, this is really hard now. Don't let your hopes go down though. Yes, one ice climber is now REALLY bad when alone, pretty much an uphill battle against any character. But in melee there was a way to do it, and it's the same in brawl. Perhaps when you had both climbers there, you were willing to take risks and play offensively? Well, when you have only one, it is okay to be scared. It's alright to camp. Space yourself and wait for a whiff to get your hits in... A tilt, a grab, anything. And your combos will pretty much be nonexistent, except for maybe a lucky utilt/dash attack to uair.
Play campy and evasively with one climber. This is way harder to deal with than before. With a solo climber... be satisfied with STAYING ALIVE. If you've dealt 40 or so damage, you've done very well...
Oh, and blizzards for spacing are still your friend.
* * *
hmm... I guess that's all for now. More updates later.
The IC's transition from melee to brawl is very interesting and very drastic, but I'm quickly getting a better and better picture of them as a character. Right now, to me, their potential isn't looking so good. They have a lot of limits... But I remember in Melee, they were so versatile that strategies could be created to defeat any character, even major counter picks, like Peach and Luigi.
Oh yeah, speaking of those. I'm not quite enlightened on the subject, but there IS a character that seems to counter them pretty hard:
Metaknight
If you guys could help... please get this b@stard off me...
Big edit: Scratch everything I said about starting desynchs being hard. Using the Z-roll desynch, which is pretty much the most safe and effective desynch, is very easy. Just press Z and roll at the exact same time to start. Nana grabs, Popo rolls. Easy peasy. Scratch what I said about pivots.
Haha Wobbles' thread. Silly me.
And I'm surprised at how little has been discussed about some real cool Ice Climbers tactics. A lot of their abilities have been discovered, but has no one discussed anything about using all of them effectively? Have we forgotten about discussing basic combos and effectively dealing damage? It seems with brawl's release, discovering new stuff is all people care about.
So I've been playing IC's for a little while now and I'll compile some notes for you guys to discuss.... not central topic in general, just an overall picture of the Ice Climbers.
1. Blizzards
First thing to point out: Without wavedashing, I first thought of ways to deal with their spacing game... Running and walking around leave them way more open than other characters because their speed isn't so hot, and it seems their range has decreased. There's a solution though... You guys really need to watch this video, has it been posted yet?
on fairuzons' YouTube channel, there's an IC's vs Peach vid... by far the most talented IC's I've seen so far. This vid really opened me up to the new IC's. The Peach player isn't so good, but wow, check out the IC's desynching.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3GM3odhBdro
More about his desynching later... let's talk about blizzards. They were the IC's longest range attack and also quite useful in melee (at least... I used it a lot. That's because my playstyle in melee didn't require a lot of grabs lol.) And it's improved! It causes more stun now so it's less punishable when used. Plus the freeze happens at lower percentages and happens more frequently at close range, such as out of grabs!
The IC's in fairuzons' vid used it as a very effective approach! Desynched and alternating short hop blizzards really covers your front effectively. Plus, since people can't move across the stage as quickly or effectively in this game without dash cancels or wavedashing... basically blizzards will cover your front against most characters' approaches. Do we have something here? I think we do. Blizzard is a great move, blow away! Now, how do we use this effectively...?
2. The safest desynch
Okay, once again the guy in fairuzons' vid wins on this one. Pivot grabs make Nana do a pivot grab and Popo rolls backwards, and you can desynch right away. Ice blocks and sh blizzards are most effective here. Try to perfect the timing of being able to do any move while desynching, such as dash attacks or tilts! I'm used to this already because it is even easier to stay desynched than in Melee. Here's some notes on desynching:
- It's hard to stay desynched sometimes when you're doing short hop ice blocks with Popo. Nana will recover quickly to resynch with you and throw an ice block also.
- Nana can now solo squall. It can keep someone stuck in a combo for Popo to attack.
- Once again, sh blizzards are your friend!!! If the person doesn't get frozen, this can set up grabs. Any grab setup is useful, I suppose.
- Desynched c-stick smashes aren't really that effective anymore. It seems the IC's are smaller, and their hammers are smaller... All three smashes cover less range.
- Ice blocks can still be chased for approaching.
Just like in melee, the best desynch requires rolling away. Let this be a message to all of you: desynching is WAY too risky unless you can cover yourself! It always has been. Desynching right in your opponent's face with a dash dance is just asking to be separated.
3. More on ice blocks
Whenever I use them, I always have this thought in my head: "Whenever I hit someone with an ice block, I can usually shield the next attack..."
This wasn't always true in melee, but it is now. Granted, it's not ALWAYS true, because let's say you hit Metaknight with a block and he's right in front of you, and he does his jab slashes. Then that's an exception. But yes, it takes a move THAT fast to counter the ice blocks. As long as it hits your opponent, you're usually safe and you can shield or roll away from the next attack. Gotta love hitstun and everything.
Also, check out that huge range! Slopes and walls affect them nicely too. These babies can go all the way across the Bridge of Eldin. That could be a nice stage for them...
4. GRABS!
a. nana grabbing, and cging
Alright! Grabs... they are what made the IC's in melee. And pretty much, it still makes them who they are. With grabs being utter garbage now in brawl (with a few exceptions like Dedede and DK), it's a nice relief to have a character who can still combo effectively off them. But 0-deaths don't really seem possible anymore... Oh yeah, speaking of chain grabs:
People make a big fuss over their dthrow chain. Okay guys, it might look infinite, but this dumb thing is difficult for me to perform. And even if you DO master it, it does damage slowly... Meaning even if you get like 5 throws off, you've only done 30 or so damage. You're better off just c-sticking off the grab. If you guys want to add this to your gameplay, go for it! Any cg is nice... but don't be johnning after a tourney becaused you missed a cg when a smash would've been a better choice.
Regrabbing after bthrow is also very interesting, and I would love to try cging across FD and then bthrowing, and then cging all the way across again. Ownage!
But anyways, alternate grabs are hard for me. It'll take me a while to get the timing down... if you guys are good at it, more power to you.
b. grab combos
YAYUHZZZ! These are so sick. Here's some notes:
- dthrow fair can be used reliably at low %'s. Usually you can do it about twice from 0% but after that they'll start hitting the ground.
- You can still do ChuDat combo! Usually right after their % is too high to chain from dthrow fair again. Just use dthrow fair to a smash. Watch for techs, because people start doing this after a while.
- fthrow to fair is still possible and I need to work on the timing
- bthrow/fthrow to fair is a really awesome looking spike, and meteor cancelling isn't done as effectively in melee anymore. Yell YAYUHZZ if you score a KO off this spike.
- At high %'s over a hundred or something, people can DI out of the dthrow before getting hit by the fair. Or sometimes, they will be hit by the horizontal hitbox of the fair instead of getting spiked, which is still good. Or maybe I'm just timing it wrong? We should keep testing the throw combos cuz they are sweet.
- Nana isn't as free to move when Popo grabs, but the other way around, it is amazing. Instead of cging, how about trying Nana grab once, do a throw, and comboing with Popo? Lots of cool possibilities here. Popo dthrow, nana fthrow, popo running usmash. Something like that.
c. C-sticking during grabs.
Wobbling is no longer possible, but you can still use the c-stick or tilts to damage people while they're in the grab. Pressing A for tilts and smashes is a little more difficult because the grab headbutts are faster. It's harder to time. But pressing the c-stick no longer throws: It does smash attacks for Nana (all 3 connect) and it does headbutts for Popo. If your opponent is at a high %, mash c-stick forward to get a couple headbutts and an fsmash in while they're grabbed, and THEN proceed to combo. Once again, imagine the possiblities. Grab, fsmash, dthrow fair, or perhaps dthrow regrab... whatever!
- Spamming c-sticks on grabs at high %'s is your most reliable way to KO. Usually after one smash attack, the next one will knock your opponent out of the grab. At high %'s you can confuse DI by c-sticking forward and then up. If they DI up, they could die.
- Memorize the speed of the smashes when c-sticking. Usmash is a little slower.
- Remember how holding down while c-sticking down does a down tilt? Well, while in a grab, you can c-stick smash someone for damage, and then press down and c-stick down for a down tilt. This will knock them off the grab at a HARSH HORIZONTAL ANGLE. Ridiculous KO potential... that's IF you can pull it off by an edge. Be careful not to dthrow when pressing down.
5. Approaching
Without WD, it seems pretty limited. Pretty much you've got running usmash, dash attack, and grab... Plus ice block and blizzard chases. SH aerials can't really be used to approach that well. Guys, that isn't a lot of possibilities... Basically their lack of an approaching game could force them to camp, and from my experience camping doesn't work so hot with Ice Climbers... Once somebody knows how to approach them, they are stuck in an ineffective defensive position. And even though Nana is smarter now, being separated is still a bad thing...
Pretty much the only way I approach is with the sh blizzards, or playing rock-paper-scissors with grabs and dash attacks. Squall is also a decent approach, but make sure they have the light around their hammers... if they don't, that means they are desynched. Synched squalls have an upward knockback at the end which you want.
6. Uairs are still amazing
If someone's on top of you, uair them. Please do this. It was one of their best moves in melee and you should keep using it. Priority/range decreased, but who cares... The IC's work best on the ground, and if someone's in the air, uair is your move to use.
7. Whiffed grabs are less punishable
Because moves are slower and basically everything is slower than it was in melee, that includes your opponent's movement and counter attacks. Your whiffed grabs have less delay so don't be afraid to take this risky approach. Remember, people can pressure you in brawl, but they can't 0-death you. However, you're IC's, perhaps you can 0-death them off a grab. If not... at least 0-70% or something. Too good.
8. Fighting solo...
Hm, this is really hard now. Don't let your hopes go down though. Yes, one ice climber is now REALLY bad when alone, pretty much an uphill battle against any character. But in melee there was a way to do it, and it's the same in brawl. Perhaps when you had both climbers there, you were willing to take risks and play offensively? Well, when you have only one, it is okay to be scared. It's alright to camp. Space yourself and wait for a whiff to get your hits in... A tilt, a grab, anything. And your combos will pretty much be nonexistent, except for maybe a lucky utilt/dash attack to uair.
Play campy and evasively with one climber. This is way harder to deal with than before. With a solo climber... be satisfied with STAYING ALIVE. If you've dealt 40 or so damage, you've done very well...
Oh, and blizzards for spacing are still your friend.
* * *
hmm... I guess that's all for now. More updates later.
The IC's transition from melee to brawl is very interesting and very drastic, but I'm quickly getting a better and better picture of them as a character. Right now, to me, their potential isn't looking so good. They have a lot of limits... But I remember in Melee, they were so versatile that strategies could be created to defeat any character, even major counter picks, like Peach and Luigi.
Oh yeah, speaking of those. I'm not quite enlightened on the subject, but there IS a character that seems to counter them pretty hard:
Metaknight
If you guys could help... please get this b@stard off me...
Big edit: Scratch everything I said about starting desynchs being hard. Using the Z-roll desynch, which is pretty much the most safe and effective desynch, is very easy. Just press Z and roll at the exact same time to start. Nana grabs, Popo rolls. Easy peasy. Scratch what I said about pivots.
Haha Wobbles' thread. Silly me.
