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The Bowser Mathcup's Thread (Post here to Discuss Specifics)

KevinM

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alright, I thought i'd try and make another useful thread for these here bowser boards. basically i'll update this first post with advice from all of you bowser players on specific matchups.

I'd also like to keep the replies pretty serious, no spam or any useless input is neccesary, also if you don't have experience in the match-up just just throw out theories, go play the matchup more help out and come back with more garnered information.

anyways, whoever posts first gets to decide what matchup we discuss first, you can post your thoughts and I can post how I approach it as well, and we can eventually get a general idea of how to approach that matchup. I'll edit the original post with links to videos and good posts as well as general summaries.

This can be one of the most influential boards to developing a Bowser so lets do it, to it guys.

Ike
Feel free to add to this and know this is subject to change as Metagame is more and more developed.

From my techniques thread:

Ike is actually one of Bowser's better match-ups, since it's my opinion that Bowser is actually an Ike-counter: the majority of Ike's moves are so slow that Bowser should have no problem dodging them and Ike's moves which will kill other characters at low percentages will not kill Bowser. Also, Ike's sword strokes are immediately shut down by Bowser's fire breath, meaning it's possible to catch Ike in a PoF mid-swing. Also, Ike's toward-B is immediately shut down by Bowser's fire.

-If he starts charging his toward+B, you have him over a barrel. Either start your fire breath or shield when he releases and charges you, block the hit then rush him and Toward+B. Either way, he's very punishable and this seems to be the preferred method of approach for most Ike players.

-For the love of god, STAY ON YOUR TOES! Be ready to dodge in a split second. Jump and act as if you're about to move in, then 2nd jump back the other way. This can fool many Ike players into swinging and leaving an opening for a Fair by Bowser.

-Do NOT use Bowser's Bair unless you're high enough off the ground that you will not experience landing lag and avoid using his Dair at all. Also, don't Bowser bomb unless you know for certain that you've mindgamed your opponent enough to know they'll fall for it. Also, avoid using smash attacks without certainty and ALWAYS fortress AWAY from Ike.

-Most matchups are better played if Bowser is waiting for an opponent to screw up so he can punish. In this case, the roles are reversed, as Ike is waiting for YOU to screw up so he can punish, and punish he will.

-Ike's running A move actually causes him to lunge closer to you as he swings his sword. If you can shield and block it, you're typically in range for either a grab or a Toward+B.

-Ike has three moves which come out quickly: his Bair, his neutral A combo and his Up+B, and only the Bair can really kill Bowser. If he uses his Up+B and you can get behind him, do so: you'll have a golden opportunity to punish with a smash attack upon him landing. Otherwise, avoid it, as getting caught in it will damage you. His Utilt can also be dangerous, but only because the hitbox starts as soon as the move begins.

-If Ike is facing away from you, it's either because he's lagging or he intends to shorthop and Bair you, which comes out very fast and can kill. Beware the backwards Ike.

-Avoid being on a platform above Ike. His Up smash takes a long time to come out and is likewise obscenely powerful. Always DI through platforms and be on the ground whenever possible and use your air dodge to get back to the ground.

-KOing Ike is best done with ftilts to get him over the edge, then follow it up with a flame tickle to keep him off the stage. The flame tickle will force him to restart his Up+B 2-3 times and each time he always seems to be pushed further under the stage because of it. After the 3rd time, his sword will generally come up through the stage and he'll miss the edge grab on the way down. Quickly timed Fairs can also catch Ike players off guard, but Ike's Fair is very powerful and has good range and outranks Bowser's priority.

-Some Ike players will use the Toward+B in mid-air when recovering to get to a higher platform if they're recovering from higher up. Watch how your Ike player behaves and counter accordingly. You can even stand near the ledge in an attempt to trick Ike into trying to get over you, then quickly move back and punish with either a Toward+B grab or a Uair if he lands on a platform above you. Ike will need to start charging his Toward+B early if he hopes to get enough distance and you should be able to react accordingly.

-Do not attempt to PoF ledgeguard Ike. You will get caught in his Up+B and punished. However, if you stand on the edge and shield as Ike attacks up from the ledge, you do have a prime chance to Dtilt for a KO if Ike is sufficiently damaged.

-When returning to the ledge, come back low, fortress to the ledge for an immediate grab and jump so you'll clear a ledge-guarding Ike.

-If Ike starts charging his Neutral+B and you can get behind him, do so. However, avoid approaching him from the front at all costs: as he releases the move, not only does he create a large explosion in front of him, but he also has super armor during the execution.

In summary, fight Ike as if you're a middleweight fighting a heavyweight, even though you're the heaviest character in the game. Grab him whenever you can with shield grabs and catch him in PoFs as often as possible. Despite his power, Ike is much lighter than you but must be treated with extreme caution. His attacks are slow, but still fast enough to punish Bowser's laggier moves.
 

Me14k

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whoever posts first gets to decide what matchup we discuss first
I feel Honored.

Lets do the common matchups first...Ike/marth/metaknight.

To start-Ike.

I feel best way to handle ike is by beating him via speed. This is through tilts but mostly through inf jump and getting the claw to connect.
 

DwaynBibad

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Unfortunately, I'm probably not experienced enough to contribute anything, but I'm very happy to see this thread made. I constantly see Bowser at the bottom of the Tier charts, and that match up thread in Tactical Discussion just has the Bowser match ups all wrong.

I know Bowser isn't going to be top tier, but he's definitely not as weak as others say he is, and an accurate Match Ups chart is a good way to start.
 

A2ZOMG

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EDIT: Ohsht didn't see that first post sry. Ignore this post while I study Ike vs Bowser.
 

S_B

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I was going to do this for my technique thread at some point soon.

Hope I'm not stepping on any toes there...
 

Stalfoe

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I use NB on Ike a lot. It hits him out of range of all of his attack and will rack up a lot of damage. I like to float just out of his range so I can smack him in between attacks. I don't suggest aggressive aerial approaches. Ike's FSmash and USmash will destroy you eventually if you do.
 

St. Viers

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Yeah, I think Booser vs Ike is my most common matchup, so some tips/observations:

If you stay out of his jab range, you are golden. Everything else he does (perhaps b-air, up-tilt) is slow enough that you should be able to react. This means you can't go spamming stuff, because if you do you'll mis-space and he can hit you, but yeah.

Ike's advantage is a huge disjointed hitbox, making him relatively safe when approaching. Except that you have fire, which beats the sword. Just tilt it up or forward. Also, you can mess with his spacing by simply running away when he begins to attack, or running towards him before he attacks--just do it when you are an initial dash away from his space (longest range he has) so that you can just shield. Trying this too close means that he can hit you in your dash.

Also, he is one of the easiest people to edgeguard. Although his upB is wicked disjointed, and does a great job of clearing the edge, he can't auto sweetspot with it, meaning you can use your fire. Enough said, right ;) Hi upB hs no range outside the thrown-up sword, so yeah, just space.

If he RAR b-airs to approach, just shield -> fortress, as I think it's faster than grabbing. If he tries to SHFF an attack, he'll have too much lag, so you can do a variety of things.

Remember that his big flamey thing has invincibility frames, so don't do stupid things near it--again just stay out of it's range and use B. He won't flinch, but he'll take damage, and when he releases it he will....;)
 

KevinM

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I was going to do this for my technique thread at some point soon.

Hope I'm not stepping on any toes there...
At this point i'd advise against it.

I like the techniques thread, but considering i just took all the essential stickies from Bowser's melee boards, and remade them. I think we should post essential match-ups in the matchup thread.

LOL at my typo, i'm leaving mathcups there.

As for your technique thread, i think I like the idea of posting finds about Bowser's metagame in their because don't get me wrong i like the idea.

And the bowser tactics is for general Bowser strategies.

Thanks for advising beforehand to discuss what i think though, most people would just make it anyways. I just say lets let this one stand as it will be a very effective thread that i'll take good care of :D
 

DwaynBibad

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I would totally agree with "use the flame attack" strategy, because that seems to work best for me too.

I have to say though, this match up is largely in Ike's favor, mainly because Bowser's flame attack constantly runs out of power so it's not spammable. I seem to have a lot of problems Shieldgrabbing Ike as well.

I think the biggest issue though is that Ike was able to knock out Bowser at only 100% with an uncharge f-smash in the middle of the ring. That's really scary.

I do believe it's quite possible to kill Ike, because he's so slow even a good Bowser can captilize on it. Also Bowser can still use his Bowsercide if things go bad, and Ike can't do that.
 

Stalfoe

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I disagree, Ike can knock Bowser out pretty early in comparison to most characters, but so can Bowser to Ike. The only thing is that we are faster, have a ranged attack that can rack up damage to make getting to that KO percentage a lot faster, an advantage to recovery and against recovery. Besides, if you get nailed with a forward smash, you probably deserved it.
 

KevinM

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And Bowser can run in his face and tilt him, if he spaces well enough.

You just need to avoid his Jab Combo which is one of his more effective moves to use against Bowser. As it hits fast and hard and can space bowser if you're making stupid mistakes.
 

St. Viers

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And Bowser can run in his face and tilt him, if he spaces well enough.

You just need to avoid his Jab Combo which is one of his more effective moves to use against Bowser. As it hits fast and hard and can space bowser if you're making stupid mistakes.
I totally beat you to saying that (read my post above) XP

I wanna know if my advice is helpful--I naturally distrust my own advice >_<
 

Admiral Pit

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Fire breath Counters Ike's Quick draw (Side+B).
Apparently when he does one of his moves that takes a while to perform, attack afterwards, but grab sometimes to keep an Ike from abusing the Counter move.
Bowser's Jab is useful after Ike uses one of his power attacks, just to give yourself distance.

When Ike tries to recover, just stay away from his Aether, wait til he's vulnerable, then keep up the assault. If he tries to do Quick Draw, do the Bowser F-air to try to knock him back, or use Fire Breath by the edge to rack up damage.

Dont be reckless, for that may leave you open. Be patient when facing Ike, for he has Powerful attacks too that take time to do too. When he leaves himself open, deal some damage on him. You can choose the Hit and run tactic to be evasive, or casual to be defensive.

That's all i got for now.
PS: Lol at the Mathcup typo
 

S_B

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From my techniques thread:

Ike is actually one of Bowser's better match-ups, since it's my opinion that Bowser is actually an Ike-counter: the majority of Ike's moves are so slow that Bowser should have no problem dodging them and Ike's moves which will kill other characters at low percentages will not kill Bowser. Also, Ike's sword strokes are immediately shut down by Bowser's fire breath, meaning it's possible to catch Ike in a PoF mid-swing. Also, Ike's toward-B is immediately shut down by Bowser's fire.

-If he starts charging his toward+B, you have him over a barrel. Either start your fire breath or shield when he releases and charges you, block the hit then rush him and Toward+B. Either way, he's very punishable and this seems to be the preferred method of approach for most Ike players.

-For the love of god, STAY ON YOUR TOES! Be ready to dodge in a split second. Jump and act as if you're about to move in, then 2nd jump back the other way. This can fool many Ike players into swinging and leaving an opening for a Fair by Bowser.

-Do NOT use Bowser's Bair unless you're high enough off the ground that you will not experience landing lag and avoid using his Dair at all. Also, don't Bowser bomb unless you know for certain that you've mindgamed your opponent enough to know they'll fall for it. Also, avoid using smash attacks without certainty and ALWAYS fortress AWAY from Ike.

-Most matchups are better played if Bowser is waiting for an opponent to screw up so he can punish. In this case, the roles are reversed, as Ike is waiting for YOU to screw up so he can punish, and punish he will.

-Ike's running A move actually causes him to lunge closer to you as he swings his sword. If you can shield and block it, you're typically in range for either a grab or a Toward+B.

-Ike has three moves which come out quickly: his Bair, his neutral A combo and his Up+B, and only the Bair can really kill Bowser. If he uses his Up+B and you can get behind him, do so: you'll have a golden opportunity to punish with a smash attack upon him landing. Otherwise, avoid it, as getting caught in it will damage you. His Utilt can also be dangerous, but only because the hitbox starts as soon as the move begins.

-If Ike is facing away from you, it's either because he's lagging or he intends to shorthop and Bair you, which comes out very fast and can kill. Beware the backwards Ike.

-Avoid being on a platform above Ike. His Up smash takes a long time to come out and is likewise obscenely powerful. Always DI through platforms and be on the ground whenever possible and use your air dodge to get back to the ground.

-KOing Ike is best done with ftilts to get him over the edge, then follow it up with a flame tickle to keep him off the stage. The flame tickle will force him to restart his Up+B 2-3 times and each time he always seems to be pushed further under the stage because of it. After the 3rd time, his sword will generally come up through the stage and he'll miss the edge grab on the way down. Quickly timed Fairs can also catch Ike players off guard, but Ike's Fair is very powerful and has good range and outranks Bowser's priority.

-Some Ike players will use the Toward+B in mid-air when recovering to get to a higher platform if they're recovering from higher up. Watch how your Ike player behaves and counter accordingly. You can even stand near the ledge in an attempt to trick Ike into trying to get over you, then quickly move back and punish with either a Toward+B grab or a Uair if he lands on a platform above you. Ike will need to start charging his Toward+B early if he hopes to get enough distance and you should be able to react accordingly.

-Do not attempt to PoF ledgeguard Ike. You will get caught in his Up+B and punished. However, if you stand on the edge and shield as Ike attacks up from the ledge, you do have a prime chance to Dtilt for a KO if Ike is sufficiently damaged.

-When returning to the ledge, come back low, fortress to the ledge for an immediate grab and jump so you'll clear a ledge-guarding Ike.

-If Ike starts charging his Neutral+B and you can get behind him, do so. However, avoid approaching him from the front at all costs: as he releases the move, not only does he create a large explosion in front of him, but he also has super armor during the execution.

In summary, fight Ike as if you're a middleweight fighting a heavyweight, even though you're the heaviest character in the game. Grab him whenever you can with shield grabs and catch him in PoFs as often as possible. Despite his power, Ike is much lighter than you but must be treated with extreme caution. His attacks are slow, but still fast enough to punish Bowser's laggier moves.
 

Admiral Pit

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That info would actually help my Bowser against my friend who uses Ike. I always hated his Neutral A combo, as well as his Neutral B. Now I should be able to counter him better than I used to.
 

KevinM

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I'd like to point out this is the exact type of information we were looking for, concise, and tested against human oponents.

The only thing i'd like to point out SB is that the U-tilt is also one of Ike's quicker moves.
 

S_B

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After watching it some more, I agree, but not because the move itself is particularly quick but because the hitbox begins very early on whereas the rest of Ike's moves tend to take time to generate the hitbox.

Also, I added the part about a backwards Ike being dangerous because it means he's prepping to Bair you.
 

IvanEva

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Unfortunately, I'm probably not experienced enough to contribute anything, but I'm very happy to see this thread made. I constantly see Bowser at the bottom of the Tier charts, and that match up thread in Tactical Discussion just has the Bowser match ups all wrong.

I know Bowser isn't going to be top tier, but he's definitely not as weak as others say he is, and an accurate Match Ups chart is a good way to start.
Assuming you're talking about my match-up chart, yeah, people haven't been kind to Bowser. Thing is, this is the first time I've read anything positive about him against somebody (and only against Ike thus far it would seem). I'll put Bowser down as having an advantage over Ike (at least until the Ike players start disputing it - which hopefully won't happen).
 

BadGuy

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How about the original menace, marth? I have some trouble defending against his fair, other then perfect shield, I can't think of anyway to stop it. Some advice will be greatly appreciated.
 

St. Viers

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against Mar+h you have to play like you did in m3lee, except you can actually use fire to help space.

I'm not quite sure what else to say--his range was shortened slightly, making it easier to deal with the disjointed hitbox, but he's still a very hard match
 

KevinM

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I actually think Marth is one of the easier matchups because now if played correctly you can outrange him. He doesn't have broken range this time around and your F-tilt stretches FOREVER. It makes for a beautiful thing.
 

Gojira

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Bowser Dittos and other big characters.

With this Bowser is able to actualy rack up damage with well placed fire breathes. Good ways are; Near a ledge, against a wall, or starting the flame right in their face if they spot dodge when you come from the ground. I have foudn this to deliver about 15-30% easily and since it pushes em back this is hard to punish. Just dont be careless with it.
 

kgosser

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Not sure if it's cool to already ask about another character, but I'm having troubles vs. a very aggressive Pit. I can't seem to get out of his combos, and he's really good at creating space.

Any tips for fighting against Pit?
 

S_B

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I'm afraid I have little advice for Pit players.

All of my experience is based upon online matches, and as such I'm limited to whatever my online opponents choose to use. I haven't run into many Pit players, likely because Pit's tactics are severely gimped by lag whereas Ike's have fewer lag-related issues.

That said, I've never had the opportunity to see what a truly skilled Pit player can do.
 

Admiral Pit

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I, myself have little advice against Pit as well. Well the only thing i can say is try to knock Pit off the stage, but make sure he isnt that high when trying to recover. Try to get him lower than the Platform, then Guard the edge with Fire Breath. It should make Pit waste his jumps as well as negating the use of the Wings of Icarus, giving your Bowser the Fire Breath KO.

Try being an Aggressive Bowser, but dont use Firebreath too much or he may reflect it.
Try and see if he'll come to u, then get him. If he does not come, u might as well be aggressive and use Shield Fortressing (Shield then use UP+B) as your primary defensive/offensive attack.
 

St. Viers

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do jabs cancel arrows? if so, that makes things easier. I'd say use jabs, uptilts to rack up damage when you can, and save your f-tilts for the kill.

Don't be stupid, so don't take his ->B in the face, and if you do for the love of god don't DI in. When I have more experience I'll post better advice >_<
 

Ripple

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I need to know if dk is an even match-up for bowser or if dk counters him. I don't think bowser counters dk
 

KevinM

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There are no KNOWN counters in Brawl currently, i would however say DK has a slight advantage over Bowser.
 

Ripple

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There are no KNOWN counters in Brawl currently, i would however say DK has a slight advantage over Bowser.
ICs counter DK known fact
zamus counters DK FACT
snake slighly counters DK

so yes, there are known counters
 

DwaynBibad

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omg don't let this thread die

I have no idea if Bowser counters DK. I'm sure DK would have an easy time landing his Donkey Punch due to Bowser's size, but then again Bowser's flamethrower grinds up DK as well.

C'mon people let's not let this thread slip by, that guy from the Brawl Tier's List thread is making jokes about Bowser comparing him to Sandbag now. His hate for Bowser is completely ridiculous and it's being reflected the community Match Up Chart. We need real Bowser players to really stick it to this guy, but in order to do that we gotta speed this thread up.

Here's the current list of character this guy claims Bowser loses to (23 characters)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Captain Falcon
Diddy Kong
Ivysaur
Falco
King DeDeDe
Kirby
Lucario
Lucas
Marth
Ness
Peach
Pikachu
Pikmin & Olimar
Pit
Peach
Samus
Shiek
Toon Link
Wario
Wolf
Yoshi
Zelda
Zamus


This is the list of characters Bowser has an advantage against (1 character)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ike


This is the list of characters Bowser is evenly matched with (2 characters)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charizard
Squirtle


And finally the disputed match ups (2 characters)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff

I wish a mod would just shut down that thread based merely on his stating this data as fact, even though it's clearly wrong. Well I guess majority of the people truly believe Bowser is just plain garbage in Brawl despite his vast improvements from Melee. Those people that actually do play Bowser competitively please help fix this bogus match up list with your own well informed list.

Thank you ahead of time.
 

KoopaKiD

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I second that. Anywho, Bowser vs. Luigi. Any takers? WARNING not ONE mess up us allowed over 56% or I instantly dieeee
 

DwaynBibad

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I think the stage is a major factor for this battle. Luigi's air game must be one of the best in Brawl, but Bowser has superior ground game. When fighting Luigi players, I try to stay on the ground as much as possible as Bowser's attack has better priority there. However if it's a level that's covered in platforms like Battlefield that'll be extremely difficult, and I would take tons of damage getting back to the ground or trying to fight Luigi in the air. However if it was Final Destination with no platforms I have much less problems and can take him easy. Bowserciding is also much easier to do there.

That's just my opinion though.

Also please check out my previous post and make any suggestions on how to fix that Bowser Match Up chart.
 

KevinM

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Bowser runs at Luigi
Luigi is hit with F-tilt
It's supereffective

Luigi is floating above Bowser
Luigi is hit with U-tilt or SH-Uair
It's SuperEffective

You can also up B out your shield on his D-air if the Luigi has no concept of spacing IE Most Luigi's.

If you get put into the air against a luigi, you just want to airdodge towards the ground and once you hit the ground run away and space yourself again.

Hope this helps man :D
 

KoopaKiD

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Bowser runs at Luigi
Luigi is hit with F-tilt
It's supereffective

Luigi is floating above Bowser
Luigi is hit with U-tilt or SH-Uair
It's SuperEffective

You can also up B out your shield on his D-air if the Luigi has no concept of spacing IE Most Luigi's.

If you get put into the air against a luigi, you just want to airdodge towards the ground and once you hit the ground run away and space yourself again.

Hope this helps man :D
u would think, but it goes more like,
Bowser F-tilts
Luigi sidestep dodges
Luigi up-B's!
It's super effective!
Bowser faints at 56%..
Will Ash choose next stock?
-_-

also, I do mid air dodge, but his back kicks come out so fast he can hit twice when I dodge the first one, It's mind-games i tell you @_@ But I appreciate the response. :)
 

SN3S

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u would think, but it goes more like,
Bowser F-tilts
Luigi sidestep dodges
Luigi up-B's!
It's super effective!
Bowser faints at 56%..
Will Ash choose next stock?
-_-

also, I do mid air dodge, but his back kicks come out so fast he can hit twice when I dodge the first one, It's mind-games i tell you @_@ But I appreciate the response. :)
Lol, my brother plays Luigi. This happens to me a lot as well. You just have to be on top of your game; if you know they're going to sidestep, then throw out a whiff, and then stutter step f-smash.

Also, I don't know if this has been posted, but Bowser's fire breath counters Ike's Aether pretty well; you throw out the fire breath, he'll throw up the sword, the sword will hit you, bu the fire hits Ike right before he comes up. Watch him drop like the space animals :laugh:
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
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The only problem with using the Fire Breath at Ike while he's using Aether, is he can DI into the fire, or just spam Up-B and do another Aether...This only works if the Ike is DIing towards the stage and goes under the ledge for somewhere like FinalD or Lylat Cruise.
 
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