Family Fun Arcade (Granada Hills, CA) Brawl Tourney: Sunday, April 20th (No Items)

Please Note: Rules are subject to change.

Family Fun Arcade - Super Smash Bros. Brawl Tournament

Where:
Family Fun Arcade
10363 Balboa Blvd.
Granada Hills, CA
(818) 360-0419

When:
Sunday, April 20th, 2008
Signups 2:00 PM (Singles ONLY)
Singles Tournament: 3:00 PM

Rules:
Entry Fee: $8 ($5 Pot, $3 Venue) <-- (Bring your Wii + Brawl game and get in FREE if we use it... WE NEED WIIS!)
Controllers: No Remote Controllers (i.e.: Wiimotes) Allowed.
Preliminary Rounds: Best 2 of 3
Final Rounds: Best 3 of 5
Stock: 3
Timer: 7:00
Prizes: 70/20/10 if under 64 players (Tournament Standard). 60/25/10/5 (1st-4th) Split if at least 64 players.
Items: None

Neutral Stages:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Counter Stages:
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Corneria
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Halberd
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Rainbow Cruise

**** am I going to lose my voice again?

Well, if I can find a way to make TIO's loser bracket distribution customized to match our paper brackets, I could just output it to a monitor or something. I guess it wouldn't be so bad with a 64-man bracket but that incident I had at Evo last year during Melty with TIO's lol brackets kinda messed me up. At least, I think it was TIO's brackets.

i'm down to go again .. maybe I can make it farther then the first round this time, lol

will there be time for casuals?

Will Arlieth be displaying his top-secret 3s-style brawl techniques

me and elv!s will 90% make it
im really happy about the item changes, those 3 core items are not bad at all! Also, I support removing norfair and skyworld from the selection. Skyworld is ridiculous sometimes. Someone is recovering and the edgeguarder just destroys the platform..to remove the ledge, gg. Gluck jocund on not completely losing your voice

This would be my first tourney, but I would very much like to come and meet some smashers from my area. I may bring someone else and I may not...looking forward to it!

jngshin said:

me and elv!s will 90% make it
.... Gluck jocund on not completely losing your voice

Click to expand...

At least somebody cares :D


P.S.

WE NEED WII's!

... I just noticed the date of this tourney. 4:20, lol...

Also, since we're only running Singles, I'm sure there will be plenty of time for casuals, yes.

PLease, no items. There is seriously no point.

No one wants them, they will never be in serious tournaments. They are a joke.


Especially now since you only have 3, thats just pointless.

LOL same with norfair and skywolrd ban please.


i dont understand, there was nothing but negative feed back for the stages last time, why even debate it???

I won't be spending my money on another items tournament.

The experiment already took place, the decision was unanimous:
No items
Norfair/Skyworld = bs.

I'll go for friendlies though.

Me an Lovage are prolly down again. Ban those 2 stages plox. Ill check back in a day or two with a definite yes/no, but if I show Ill bring my setup again.

Game would be better able to answer this question than I could. But here's what we observed from the last tournament:

-No one could really tell us exactly why "Items were stupid."
-Some items (weapons, really) gave serious advantages for extended periods of time. The biggest culprits were Hothead and Super Scope. (The banana peel does little damage and is stationary, which makes it much less of a threat.) This also eliminated melee attack weapons like Fan, Star Rod and Hammer.
-Some items were absolutely useless, like Mr. Saturn. They took up an item spawn, so why even bother?
-The items that caused the most outcries of "Unfairness" were, again, Hothead and Super Scope. Some players said Star Rod was too good while others said it was sucky and wasn't worth bothering with. Another player thought that characters with projectiles benefited more from gun-weapons like the Super Scope more than characters WITHOUT projectiles. (This made zero sense to me whatsoever.)

Right now, Evolution seems dead-set on Items and Final Smashes. If we end up finding an item-set that isn't imbalanced/broken instead of an All-Items-Allowed set, I think that's a reasonable compromise for the biggest fighting game tournament in North America. If all items are inherently stupid, then we need to show it in competitive play instead of playing Theory Fighter on the internet where everyone and their kid brother is suddenly God-Tier with their character.

Our last items tournament still had DSF and Lucky in the finals out of a 54-man bracket, which would seem to prove that Skill > Items in the end. I'm just trying to weed out the stupider of the items at the moment through actual criteria like no AOE (Area of Effect) or no One-Hit-Kill properties.

Arlieth Tralare said:

Game would be better able to answer this question than I could. But here's what we observed from the last tournament:

-No one could really tell us exactly why "Items were stupid."

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Did you try speaking to anyone that had actual knowledge on the matter? The key argument still stands, Items spawn randomly. That's it, period. The degree to which it affects the game over various random samples does not matter, it still stands that items affect the game RANDOMLY. That in and of itself should end all claims for the inclusion of items in a serious competitive environment if the ability to remove them from play is present.
Otherwise, the same attitude of item inclusion can be applied to the inclusion of tripping. If we had the ability to remove it, keeping it in would purposely diminish the game's competitive value.

Like items, certain stages also carry the "interference" factor. However, the patterns of environmental hazards on these stages can be predicted. Otherwise stages that don't have this trait of predictability are banned. The spawning of an item doesn't have this trait of predictability. So then, why are items getting special treatment? The experiment was done, the effects are visible, why is this still being questioned?

Here's what I observed from the last tournament:

-No one could really tell us exactly why "Item's should be used."

-Some items were absolutely useless, like Mr. Saturn. They took up an item spawn, so why even bother?

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I saw a sonic airdodge into romeo's charged upsmash. The moment the airdodge ended and the usmash was about to connect, Mr. Saturn decided to spawn and take the hit, allowing sonic to stay alive.
Mr. Saturn may be useless, but that doesn't mean he won't become randomly beneficial or detrimental to a player's situation outside of his/her control. Sounds fair though, right?

Right now, Evolution seems dead-set on Items and Final Smashes. If we end up finding an item-set that isn't imbalanced/broken instead of an All-Items-Allowed set, I think that's a reasonable compromise for the biggest fighting game tournament in North America. If all items are inherently stupid, then we need to show it in competitive play instead of playing Theory Fighter on the internet where everyone and their kid brother is suddenly God-Tier with their character.

Click to expand...

But we've been proving why items should not be in tournament play for about 7 years. And the "it's a new game" retort just doesn't cut it. The reasons for removing items don't differ in this new environment, they STILL spawn RANDOMLY to AWARD players RANDOMLY.

Our last items tournament still had DSF and Lucky in the finals out of a 54-man bracket, which would seem to prove that Skill > Items in the end. I'm just trying to weed out the stupider of the items at the moment through actual criteria like no AOE (Area of Effect) or no One-Hit-Kill properties.

Click to expand...

Yes, skills > items in the end, but that's like arguing that skill > luck in poker in the end. Both statements are true, but that doesn't stop a less skilled player from winning every now and then. That type of thing would be great to avoid in a fighting game, don't you think? I think "play to win/all is fair" enthusiasts are failing to realize that skills > no items also applies. There's no need for them in the context of finding the most skilled player. Furthermore, there is actually a need for the absence of items in the quest for finding the most skilled player, for the reasons mentioned prior. If you looked at the matches played that day, it was clear that some were won or lost because of item interference.

shoot if were gonna use items lets try high gravity

Arlieth Tralare said:

Right now, Evolution seems dead-set on Items and Final Smashes. If we end up finding an item-set that isn't imbalanced/broken instead of an All-Items-Allowed set, I think that's a reasonable compromise for the biggest fighting game tournament in North America. If all items are inherently stupid, then we need to show it in competitive play instead of playing Theory Fighter on the internet where everyone and their kid brother is suddenly God-Tier with their character.

Click to expand...

Thats his point there gentlemen, if you all continue to ask to turn off the items, then don't bother going to EVO this year. Otherwise help any tournament out that has items on with only a specific selection so that way EVO might consider the outcome. I've also noticed that in the last tournament, Lucky and Recipherus(hope i spelled it right), and DSF, were able to use and counter the items. So in my opinion go practice how to work your way around them. Nothing against anybody just stating my observation.

it seems like if EVO could have it their way, then yes lots of items and FINAL SMASHES will be on. After all, you gotta attract a huge audience and make that $$$, and I don't blame them. Lots of explosions and cool effects are what draw people in, not intricate mindgames and good spacing.
Whatever makes the audience go "OHHHH!!!!"

It does compromise the fairness of the game however, so I give major props to the community for trying to make it as fair as possible. Considering the calibur of the games and the players at EVO, I would expect them to cater to the competitive community more though. I guess I am just disappointed. To be honest, due to their insistence on items, I get a strong feeling that final smashes will end up at EVO.

Hmm, that Sonic HugS mentioned was probably me.

No matter, I will try hard to attend this one as well. Probably with Wii in hand, same as last time.

Seriously, what do we have to do to make EVO turn items off. NO. ONE. WANTS. THEM. Its that simple. Items are ******** and everyone knows it. I have never heard a single argument from a skilled player in favor of items. No one wants them. Turn them off

The people who want items never seem to realize the fact that items are just incredibly random.

Its like you are in the end of a game, its in the bag, suddenly.....Marth has a projectile, its a freezy! You try to recover, he hits you with it out of a lucky shot, and just as you break out he owns you.

And There goes all the money you have invested in tourneys for your entire life wanting to win one.


NO ITEMS!

I'd show up on the condition that items were taken out (freezie is an instant ko if they are off stage or near the edge, the shell gives advantages to little characters in that they now have a long range ko move and bigger characters cant dodge it as easily as them, and the banana peel not being exclusively diddy nerfs diddy bad) also, green greens and luigis mansion should not be playable, green greens has the bomb glitch, which makes an otherwise great stage unplayable, and luigis mansion has a mini cave of life, and while you could argue that the bottom floor can be destroyed, not only does that take away damage from your attacks, but you have to take out the top floor first, so they can just hit you from beneath while you do that, the stage gives huge advantages to zelda, who is the only chacter who can projectile spam on the stage, its completely unfair to everyone else if there is a zelda player

wow lol, whats this bull**** argument about "no one gave us a reason"

I'm pretty sure i was going to lose my first match, until i got a fire flower, i'm pretty sure i saw at least 5 comebacks with items.

I'm pretty sure nobody should waste their money on FFA tournies until they realize what THE MAJORITY of people want, and NOT DO ITEMS. that's ********. might as well play lightning brawl.

Why do you guys insist on having items? Is it part of some scheme where you'll do item tourneys, but have people magically come, and then later on have tournaments with no items so that more people will come because it's no items? Even if EVO is doing items, that still doesn't mean you should.

Anyways Arlieth, just imagine items in 3rd strike. How would that make you feel? Exactly. It just doesn't work, mainly when money is on the line and you only want skill to be between you and 1st place, not items.

And who the hell is in charge of EVO rules anyways? I think those guys need to get their **** straight or gtfo. Last thing I heard for EVO World for 3s was 1 match games and single elimination. Going to vegas for one match? That's pretty ****ty IMO for the "Biggest fighting game tournament in America."

Items are great. Keep them on plz.

killer tofu said:

Items are great. Keep them on plz.

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if you would like to add a reason into this otherwise compelling argument, i'm all ears.

The items that they are keeping on are not broken at all. All can be avoided, shielded, deflected, eaten/swallowed, or simply hit by another move to make them inert.

The items will allow less room for camping. I've heard people say that it owuld just allow people to camp and wait for items which is true, but camping with items would still go faster than just regular camping with the projectiles that some characters are given.

Items help speed up matches.

Items appear randomly, there is no way around that really but the top results weren't really affected by the items. Also you can control the stage so that you are at an advantage in getting items and controlling the stage takes skill.

just a few.

tofu thats not funny, these guys might take you seriously.


Items are an absolute joke, get rid of them, and youll get more people, and less complaints.

Lol. Finnnnneeeeeeeeee

I really want to go to this tournament because it's so close to where I live...but I'm not spending any money if items are on, sorry

itsthebigfoot said:

I'd show up on the condition that items were taken out (freezie is an instant ko if they are off stage or near the edge, the shell gives advantages to little characters in that they now have a long range ko move and bigger characters cant dodge it as easily as them, and the banana peel not being exclusively diddy nerfs diddy bad) also, green greens and luigis mansion should not be playable, green greens has the bomb glitch, which makes an otherwise great stage unplayable, and luigis mansion has a mini cave of life, and while you could argue that the bottom floor can be destroyed, not only does that take away damage from your attacks, but you have to take out the top floor first, so they can just hit you from beneath while you do that, the stage gives huge advantages to zelda, who is the only chacter who can projectile spam on the stage, its completely unfair to everyone else if there is a zelda player

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1. Other players can pick up diddy's banana's too, its just dificult when you have a brown bundle of pain dash attacking at you.

2. I don't know what the bomb glitch is, please explain.

3. Luigis mansion is a counterpick, which means it is designed against spammers. If I get the chance to play a non-neutral map with a Pit player I tend to chose luigi's mansion. If you are playing against a zelda player on this map, then just run through it. Her fire isn't aimable enough that you can't dodge it.

Arlieth Tralare said:

-No one could really tell us exactly why "Items were stupid."

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1. Since items are placed randomly, players are given advantages based on their distance from the placed item (which requires random chance, not skill). This already makes the game INTENSELY unbalanced. Free advantages = bull**** = Unfair fighting

2. They give players abilities that they normally would not have. This makes it so that previously studying, practicing and correctly integrating match-ups, strategies and individual character techniques will often become pointless. This is not a good way to encourage or promote high level competition.

This is like in 3rd Strike if (after pressing jab over a box on the ground)....

- a character were to be given one super on their meter
-Yun was to be temporarily given a shoryuken
-Akuma was to be temporarily given 75% stronger defense
-Hugo was to be temporarily given speed
-etc.

Arlieth Tralare said:

-Some items were absolutely useless, like Mr. Saturn. They took up an item spawn, so why even bother?

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Because of the same reason as above. Whether it's useless or not, it is a single element that influences the outcome with probabilty rather than pure skill. A Mr. Saturn could decide the outcome of the game that otherwise would've been impossible without it. If a Game & Watch @ 200% is playing a Marth @ 200% (both 1 stock), then Marth has a range advantage and Game & Watch has to choose his moves very carefully in order to win. Throw a Mr. Saturn into the picture and Marth can die easily and instantly if the Mr. Saturn spawns right next to Game & Watch.

Sure, items can be used strategically once they're picked up, but because of the fact that there is no balanced system as to how each player initially receives an item (and which one), it is terribly unbalanced and unfair.

And even if there were a balanced system, I think a majority of the seriously competitive players would still agree that items suck.

Quick question, Who's planning on going to EVO this year, that wants the fame and money for Brawl?

So there is no way that if both players agree to no items, they can be removed?

Green shells have stupid KO potential

Whats with the items, just turn that **** off its stupid... :/

Items must be active for the match or both players will be disqualified.

Mio:

2. They give players abilities that they normally would not have. This makes it so that previously studying, practicing and correctly integrating match-ups, strategies and individual character techniques will often become pointless. This is not a good way to encourage or promote high level competition.

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There's competitive games that do this already, namely, DoTA. You have to constantly adjust your build based on the items/weapons build that your opponent has, which drastically changes the strategy that you use and makes the game that much more complex. It's because of this complexity and depth that high-level play is encouraged. And if you want to take fighting games into account, think of the way Kara-cancels and Roll-cancels changed the way 3rd Strike and CvS2 are played. Instead of banning these techniques that changed the way the characters played, Japanese players embraced them and took the skill level of these games to the next level. Back to DoTA, if I suddenly have to remember that Mageslayer now has a sheepstick or that Drow Archer has a blink dagger, or Huntress just picked up an Invisibility rune, I can either complain (and get killed) or adjust my tactics so I can GTFO.

If you have to run away and turtle until the advantage is gone, then so be it. And if I have to kick a Green Shell or a Banana Peel into an enclosed area where DeDeDe is so he can't lure me inside there to chain-grab me to oblivion(I think the chain-grab is pretty ********, but who's going to ban it?), then so be it.

This is like in 3rd Strike if (after pressing jab over a box on the ground)....

- a character were to be given one super on their meter
-Yun was to be temporarily given a shoryuken
-Akuma was to be temporarily given 75% stronger defense
-Hugo was to be temporarily given speed

Click to expand...

You know what? I'd think it'd be pretty interesting. If SBO or EVO had a 3s Items tournament, I'd train for it because there's money to be had. And then I'd try to figure out if Yun gets any new combos with his Shoryuken, or Hugo with his increased speed, just in case I happen to get that particular ability. I wouldn't be able to rely on it every time since it's a random chance I'd get it, but I'd capitalize on that chance. If I didn't, I'd be foolish.

Sure, items can be used strategically once they're picked up, but because of the fact that there is no balanced system as to how each player initially receives an item (and which one), it is terribly unbalanced and unfair.

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I do agree that the random spawning isn't anywhere close to ideal. However, that makes stage-control that much more important since keeping my opponent cornered increases my chances (but not guarantees) of getting the next item since I dominate 70% of the stage. That territory control makes techniques like wave-dashing (or its current equivalent with cancelling Smashes) critical for winning.

I will say this though- 3rd Strike's been out for almost ten years already, so it's probably easier to accept new changes to the 3rd Strike formula because we're so bored with it. The same can't be said of Brawl since it's a brand-new game, but I think there's plenty of non-item tournaments that you can attend alongside our FFA Brawl tourneys (which may or may not have items). Furthermore, if MLG or some world championship decided to include items in their tournaments, players with items-experience will have a huge advantage over non-item players in memorizing spawn times, item deployment and countermeasures, especially if Nintendo decides to change the way Items are spawned (place-specific or order-specific).

Since you're familiar with the SRK scene and this is related to EVO, check this thread out as well: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=148844

And if it turns out that EVO will run 2v2 Teams with No Items or Final Smashes, then that will be exactly the series of tournaments that we will run to prepare our local players for competition. But it's the actual results of Item Tournaments like the one we're holding at FFA that will help determine the decision that EVO makes for the Brawl ruleset. We have on video a last-set, Grand Finals match where Lucky lost that critical combo opportunity against DSF due to a Hothead. Once we have rock-solid proof like this to make your case, we can make progress on these sorts of issues.

And even if there were a balanced system, I think a majority of the seriously competitive players would still agree that items suck.

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Well, nothing's set in stone and you're entitled to your opinion. Let's see how it goes and leave it at that.

I realize that I haven't yet gotten around to addressing everyone's concerns yet, so I'll get that when I get some more free time to respond.

If sign-up period is at 2 PM I guess its OK to just get there at 2? Or what if there are too many people, could I miss a spot?

Do you think there will be time to practice between 2 to 3? I've never been to one of these tournaments at FFA, so tell me please. thanks.

ssbbFICTION said:

1. Other players can pick up diddy's banana's too, its just dificult when you have a brown bundle of pain dash attacking at you.

2. I don't know what the bomb glitch is, please explain.

3. Luigis mansion is a counterpick, which means it is designed against spammers. If I get the chance to play a non-neutral map with a Pit player I tend to chose luigi's mansion. If you are playing against a zelda player on this map, then just run through it. Her fire isn't aimable enough that you can't dodge it.

Click to expand...

1. yes they can pick up the bananas, but a major perk of diddy is being able to control when the bananas spawn and having them always near you. giving everyone bananas is like allowing everyone to be able to short hop double laser, or quick attack cancel

2. the bomb glitch is a glitch that can be set up on green greens, basically you make an exploding wall that splits the center part of the stage and one of the side islands

3. a zelda player can teleport all around the level and projectile spam, and the fire can be controlled enough that, with the solid ceilings keep you in, is very hard to dodge. on top of that, snake and zelda are the 2 characters that can quickly destroy the top levels for the bottom, giving those characters huge advantages. the unbreakable ceilings also encourages camping on the bottom floor, and the attack lag from hitting the supports can give players a second chance because of the same lag given in the mr. saturn examples applies to any one near the support beams, slowing down several of the larger characters

Okay, I can finally post on here for the time being. Argh servers D:<

Anyways, I posted on SRK already, but since I haven't heard about anything from SRK/Evo staff regarding Brawl rulesets, this will be the last Items tourney that we'll be holding. Tournaments after our 4/20 event will be No-Items until Evo comes up with an established ruleset, in which case we'll adopt that one for training purposes, but until then, it'll be Tournament Standard.