Sega Vs. Everyone (Zamus and Marth entry complete)

It seems that this board is missing a solid match-up thread to look to. Well I decided to make one. Alot of people are having trouble with fighting many characters with Sonic. I'm not gonna lie I had some trouble myself at first. But I continued to stick with Sonic and study my
Vic..I mean opponents and now I'm more confortable fighting them. Long story short, I will be going in-depth on this so prepare yourselves for a wall of text .

If you need help on using Sonic, look at the sticky threads this is used to explain match-ups with other characters.

Special thanks to the Greenstreet's Community Match-up thread (Made my life easier ^_^) and Teh Umby's Video thread.

Bowser
Captain Falcon
Diddy
DK

Greenstreet said:

DK....Donkey Kong is HERE

Introduction

"Donkey Kong is the protagonist from the Donkey Kong series. In his first appearance, Donkey Kong, he was the antagonist of Mario, but he soon starred in his series of games which depicted him as the hero, though he remains a featured character in Mario spinoff games. He has appeared in all three Smash Bros. games to date."
He is a big fella, but this doesn't mean that Sonic can necessarily own over him like he is Bowser. He has powerful moves, powerful tilts and powerful throws. But we have a few things over him, like gimpability.

Behaviour:

-DK is pretty mobile. His run speed and air speed are both above average. And because Sonic isn't a projectile camper, he can't really stop DK from approaching with his B-air, which is fast and has huge range. - A2ZOMG

-DK's tilts are all fast and have crazy range, making it fairly unsafe to stay close to DK for a long period of time. His grab range is also very good, which speaks for itself really. His D-smash while a little unsafe to use comes out fast, and if you normal shield it will push you away a decent distance. A2ZOMG

-Dk can juggle fairly consistenly with his aerials if you don't pay attention, only a few hits from his u-air and b-airs will have give you an extra 40% like that. DK's know this. DK's abuse this.

-Where DK mind games come into play is with the Giant Punch.
When DK charges it up, every player in the world goes into Turtle on Crack Mode(tm). You run around being wildly defensive, trying to make DK waste the punch. DK wants you to freak out and get close and shield. That sets you up for a grab, and DK's grabs are ridiculously great. The <throw is going to send you off the level and is a potential killer. The >throw is of course the Cargo Hold and a perfect setup for either throwing you into the abyss, Kongocide or one of DK's 3 spikes while you're recovering.

-Terrydactyl

-Spot-dodge into Down smash will own Sonic's fair and most other short-hopped aerials. Mightn't be too commonly used by a DK, but you still have to consider this when approaching

-DK's play an odd style, it's neither offensive or defensive, it is simply reactive, they will act according to what you do almost completely. This is because of their blind spot perhaps, or laggy moves, but they'll react to what you do, so getting into patterns is very bad in this matchup.

-Spot dodging and air dodging- it'll happen alot, so learn to charge a fsmash to counter his spotdodge, or even u-tilt if you think your timing sucks.

Commonly Used Moves:

U-tilt: It's very ease for Dk to combo in and out of this move, and it is very quick with decent damage. Approaching DK from behind will result in Sonic being mashed by this. Enables effective juggling.

D-Smash: Comes out like lightning and it will hit you really far. DK's can use this after shielding/spot dodging your attacks and it will kill.

B-air: This is the other pain move. It sucks. COmes outfast and knocks back a decent distance for a b-air. Can be combo'ed with. Unexpected and good priority.

F-tilt: Owns pretty much any Sonic recovery and they'll pretty much spam it alot of match. Be careful not to get hit by hit as it'll rack up a couple of hits whichll be like 40% in no time.

Spot-dodge: DK's live off it, because they are so big, they'll use it heaps to avoid and counter attacks, and it works too.

How to Win:

When approaching from the front, just watch out for:

- 10-charged punches, since super armor will counter and destroy you. Also keep in mind if he charges his punch but isn't flashing. It's most likely a 9-charge punch - no super armor, but ungodly knockback.
- Up-B. It also has super armor (or is it invincibility frames? I think it changes depending on grounded/aerial up-B) during the beginning, so it can be used to counter and rack up some un-wanted damage. It IS possible to smash him or grab him out of it, but it's usually safer to wait until post-attack lag.
- Sakurai Combo. 'Nuff said. Too many times have I gone in, expecting DK to tilt or something so I'd tap shield, and as soon as I let go, get slammed into the ground...
But really, B-air/headbutt hurts your shield pretty badly too.
- Ground Slam - clangs with/outprioritizes SDR's.
- Grab. This is where you'll need 1337 teching skills. at 40%+, DK can cargo-grab you, walk off the edge, and stagespike you with a throw. Good luck on this one ;__;. Ripple also posted a video of what to do to people who get caught doing reflexive teching (throw them under the stage/away from it and lol as they airdodge). However, Sonic is rather safe from this since he has such a large recovery range.

-Tenki

You cant let DK breathe, but you also have to be aware of the super armor on some of his moves and the alarming speed of his tilts.

The fact is that even with good DI...a D-smash is gonna kill u @ 110%. D smash is nearly instant OOS. His up-tilt kills in the 160% range. His Up and Foward smash kill before 100%...so even though u can work him over with low knock back moves for obscene %....once it comes down to getting the kill things get alot tricker. The only thing I have reliably done is if I block a D-smash, I shield drop stutter step F-smash and it hits. That works rather reliably.

A big mistake that people make is assuming his smash attacks aren't safe. It's SONIC! DK can throw out F- smashes all he wants....whats he gonna die to a dash attack? Or an up-throw (Not until 200 with good DI)? or an up-smash? DK players have this logic....same as DDD....the risk vs reward is just so uneven.

The risk vs reward for his smash attacks is craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy. The risk is AT BEST sonic can get a grab. The reward is you do obscene knockback and probably kill your opponent before 100%.

-MalcomM

-I think that it comes down to approaching. When that ape jumps, be aware of his blindspot infront of him and f-air, itll rack up damage fairly well and even string into a HA, or an asc/sd.
Approaching with a SH'ed ASC could be disasterous from behind him, because of his tilts, so a SD is more advisable, do to it's priority frames in the beginning of the move. In spot dodge wars, it could even pay just to jab him out, if not escape, rather than try to beat him into a smash move.
With any styles of approach other than aerial (too an extent) DK will have a response. Ground approach/Ground pound ; ASC: u-tilt ; Spinshot/b-air.
So this is why it's important to be very different in your approaches, and make sure DK cannot predict what will happen next.
Play defensively in that you'll have to avoid DK's smashes if you want to stay alive for over 60%.


Like Dedede, rising/lagless B-airs can totally screw up your approach game. It's also one of DK's best approaches/spacing tools, and can even KO. A running P-shield can sometimes screw up his spacing if he's doing a falling B-air, and you can proceed to grab him out of it. It's much easier to do this on laggy landings, but I'm pretty sure you can grab him straight out of the aerial if you shield the attackbox.

-Tenki

If he's not Ground Pounding then aerials are probably the most effective way of approaching but still not great. F-tilt > All Sonic's approaches except for fair seemingly, SH fair was a life saver in this match-up.
His SH aerials (except for his fair which is awful) are decent GTFO attacks, with bair and uair having notably good priority.
-ROOOOY!

Recommended Stages:

LYLAT CRUISE: I'm not sure but i think this could be a good option. The curvature of the level will make DK jump higher when jumping across, making Sonics aerials easier to connect with. I just find this level flows better in this matchup.

LUIGI'S MANSION: Same reasons as Mario's it seems. It'll stop his great aerial game alot (coz he can barely fit in that house) but will make approaching a little more difficult for Sonic, but its nothing that cant b over come by SH ASC's.

NOT BATTLEFIELD: Again lol? I'd avoid Battlefield, I got ***** on it earlier. Battlefield really limits you to a ground approach only and considering DK's range, that sucks. He can really pressure you with bairs/uairs/nairs if you get stranded on platforms too.

-ROOOOY!




Matchup Summary: 60:40 Donkey Kong

Click to expand...

Vids Vs. DK
coming soon

Falco
Fox
Game&Watch
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers

There's two of them >_< (Wishes Tails was here to follow Sonic). Here's two things you gotta watch out for during this match:
1. DON'T GET GRABBED EVER!!! YOU WILL BE HORRIBLY *****!!!
2. Well, desynchs. This allows them to do two different moves at a time. A desynched defense is very difficult for Sonic to get past.

Well those are the two things you'll need to know to understand what ICs can do. Now I will explain their moveset in detail.

- Ice shots are going to be used for spam, expect this move to be used alternatively. Desynched Ice Blocks are difficult for Sonic to get across from a distance. The hop Sonic's Foward B can stop the blocks, however it will overwhelm you after the hop. Sonic's best bet to avoid this altogether is to stay close to them. Be careful with your spacing up close, don't forget they can outrange you with those hammers and grab you.

- Squall Hammer will be hard to stop altogether when it's done with Nana. A Side B from a single Climber can be easily punished if predicted, but it can be hard to stop this if desynched. They can also desynch out od Side B as well so watch out if you shield this (This move damages your shield well). Expect this to be used as a recovery as well as long as Nana is with Popo.

- Down B is their answer to your spin dashes and will be used to outspace you. They can also short-hop this for continued pressure. However a regular short hopped one is punishable. Be careful of desynched Blizzards, this can lead you to getting grabbed.

- Up B is simple to explain. This is basically one of their many kill moves. Don't ever try to combat this with Dair for Nana is invincible while going up and you will die real early. This can also be used as a tether recovery. Otherwise it's just like melee if they're no ledges available or edgehogged. Also one of their specials to cause a desynch.

The most effective way to beat them is to separate them. Each one has a separate damage meter (Nana's being invisible) and damage reductions from stale moves. Remember that there's two of them so one of their attacks will go through unless you hit them both. A good way to separate them is with aerials and to an extent Neutral B (which can either target Popo or Nana). Also, having grounded springs can help keep that pesky cpu partner at bay or you can gimp the cpu after it lands on the spring. Most of their moves can be punished if it's not desynched. Remember it's desynchs that keep the other Climber from being punished most of the time. Get them in the air, they aren't good at aerial combat. Make sure you attack from the front, Uair comes out fast, so does Bair, Nair and Dair.

Sonic can easily gimp them in so many ways. Hit one of them and the other is likely to not make it back. Also, you can hit Popo out of the tether for a stage spike or to push him away to his doom. You can also share the ledge with Nana to keep Popo from returning (What a backstabbing *****). One last thing, their grab range stinks. So space them with Ftilt and Dtilt with mostly aerials. Remember spacing and your speed is key to success against ICs (As well as killing that Nana at any given chance). Don't worry about a solo Climber they barely can do anything, let alone recover.

For stage selection, bring them to stages that constantly changes or scrolls (Rainbow Cruise comes to mind). Also, stages with hills and slanted terrain are good counterpicks. These stages should help in avoiding those 0-death grabs.

Vids Vs. Ice Climbers
Coming Soon
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link

Greenstreet said:

LINK - Character Matchup 3

Introduction

Link is the protagonist of The Legend of Zelda series by Nintendo. He has saved Hyrule and Princess Zelda from many evils. The wielder of the Master Sword and the holder of the Triforce of Courage. He appears as a main playable fighter in all three Super Smash Bros. games. Link was confirmed for Super Smash Bros. Brawl at E3 2006. His graphics have been completely revamped from his Super Smash Bros. Melee form, since his new look is derived from the game, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess.

His special moves have also been changed to fit the style of Twilight Princess.
How does this affect Sonic?



Behaviour:
Link's behaviour can be very different depending on the link. Some can spend all of their time on the ground while others will be air-happy, and mess around with projectiles up there. In regards to this matchup, it's worse of Link hangs in the air.

A good link can use bombs in every situation. Bombs can be used to force certain approaches, provoke certain reactions and provide a failsafe if the Link runs out of other options. Ledgehog bombing is jumping up from the ledge, getting out a bomb, and regrabbing that edge. Not commonly used but can get them unexpected damage if you can't see it coming.
They can also take out a bomb, hold it and defend with fsmashes and nair's, and right when done, throw out the unexpected bomb. Sometimes not effective...easy to see i guess. It gets used tho. They can drop it mid air with a catch before the hit the ground again, this can be offputting. + link can drop 2 bombs on the platforms on battlie field, limits a lot of jumping approaches.
Just double jumping and throwing one can limits links opponents approach from the arc that bomb follows.

Legan was a very aerial Link when I last played him a few weeks ago. He was continually jumping and dropping bombs on the floor, which made trying to grab his landings a painful experience, and missed grabs... problematic, since it would lead into some sort of bomb punishment combo.
-Tenki

One hit from an Fsmash and you get 35% damage. ONE MOVE (two hits) = 35% damage. That's a lot. His Dair and his DAC are deadly as well. Now one thing I do agree with is the gimping...he is very easy to gimp. Most people I think can agree with this.

Arrows will also be used alot, learn about arrow cancelling, because Link's do it. It's much faster than shooting a normal arrow.

DAC Smash: Link's sliding up-smash, pretty much. Can be pretty lethal, but very easy to avoid.

A link will probably start a matchup by spamming some arrows, maybe whipping out a bomb or even 'ranging. It's their way of applying pressure early. Links play a very smart game, they are low -tier (tiers are for queers) so the good Links are really smart players. They play a setup game. The use those projectiles to force you into situations where Link is advantageous, in this case, the air. (or just to slow you down). They like to control the match from the middle of the stage, as they are very gimpable, and like to be able to move in either direction if the situation calls for it. They are pretty darn patient, so if they think a counter-attack only has 25% of hitting, they'll probly leave it until they have a sure-fire approach.
Their hits do hurt alot tho (fmash 35% did i hear?) and their dsmash has alot of kill potential, they'll save em for u tho.
Tilts are pretty dangerous and jab canceling is really useful for Links, with a wide range of options.

Commonly Used Moves:

Bombs: There is a bit of spiel about their use in the Behaviour section, so it'l suffice to say here that they use them for spacing purposing and forcing certain approaches
Boomerang: Similar use to the bombs, the rang will usually be thrown not to hit, but for some strategic purpose, ie restrict a part of the stage that Link is uncomfortable with.
Arrows: Arrow cancelling is good. Links do it a lot, dangerous projectile against sonics approach if you approach carelessly. arrow cancelling- This is when link shoots an arrow as soon as he hits the ground, there is a slight lag after the shot but he can short hop it and do it out of aerials, the most commonly used is to use it after a back air. This will stop sonic in his tracks when he thinks he has an easy approach.
Craq Walking-Link has this rediculous ability to slide all over the place. This momentum technique works best after using a zair or a short hopped bair/nair. Every move that link makes is a potential mindgame.
U-smash: the can DAC, slided smash - so watch out, but you will most likely see this coming
F-tilt
N-air
Zair- Used for recovering, spacing, approaching, and retreating. There is absolutely no lag after it meaning the player can follow up with any attack they want. They can also zair while holding a bomb, which means if you get hit with the zair, you're mostly likely going to get an explosive in your face immediately after. This attack is quick and can be done immidately out of an airdodge.
Jab: can be cancelled to go into other moves, like Ike/Falcon, so don't always assume it'll be jabjabjab. Also infinite jab is do-able on sonic, so yer, avoid that, don't get knocked into it
F-smash/D-smash/D-air: for kills (though, grounded Up-B and the other aerials can be used too, situationally)

How to Win:
If you are ever hanging on the ledge, link can SH dair over the edge and if you do anything except roll onto the stage, youre going to die. even so, theres still no avoiding it if he predicts a roll onto the stage and just hovers over the end of the roll to dair you. i think the safest way out is to just jump off the edge and maybe spinshot or spring/homing attack back onto the stage.
djbrowny

From fighting another Link, his N-air, though weak, can outprioritize alot of your attacks, which is a bit of a problem.

Legan was a very aerial Link when I last played him a few weeks ago. He was continually jumping and dropping bombs on the floor, which made trying to grab his landings a painful experience, and missed grabs... problematic, since it would lead into some sort of bomb punishment combo.

Other Links that I fought were either ground based trying to create an 'aura of projectiles', or aerial-based, like Legan's. The ground-based ones, possibly because I'm a very ground-based player, got pretty owned because they were more vulnerable to grabs =/

IMO it's very important to keep shielding in mind when fighting any slow-projectile user. Their movements are usually traps made so that if you dodge, you get hit, or if you get hit, you get hit by a followup. So if you're in close range and your opponent has a slow projectile, be prepared to shield and avoid a second attack.

Link D-air a good 'counterkill' for Sonics who try to U-throw > Spring > U-air if the Sonic is 60% or above. If you do it, do it so it ends by the time you land - it's severe mindgames for landing-lag-grab-happy Sonics. As for laggy D-airs, I usually just avoid and counter with F-smash or B-air `.`; It's not like it's a secret - alot of us have been aware of this stuff anyway lol.

-Tenki

Gimp and Pressure. Pressure that guy. Shield projectiles, throw em back, eat em, just get around them. Spinshot is great against Link and this is a match where you can actually use Sonic's ground speed. If the Link likes to start with an arrow run and shield. All of his moves are strong and he focuses on spacing, so use tilts and spindashes to get to him. Dash attack is a pretty decent approach too. Your main focus of this match is to control the projectiles and get him off the stage.
-Camalange

One thing I'd suggest to Sonic mains is never recover from below if you can help it. You will get D-aired and it will suck.

However, a good Link will always have bombs out, and will arrow cancel. Arrow Cancelling will be avoided if you approach cleverly, not too sure how to deal with the bombs though. Several nasty Links like to keep to the air and throw bombs down at the ground to put you off camping their landing spot and grabbing. Just remember "what comes up, must come down" (Sonic Heroes is a good song, dammit) so you will catch him on the fall if you're smart. When not approaching, you need to be not too far away, or you'll get ***** by projectiles.
Up close fighting Sonic outmatches or at least goes even with Link too. Once up close Link cannot do much other than his jabs, U tilt and Fsmash. most of which if blocked are easily punished.
-ROOOY!

. I have trouble when they SH FF nair. Kinda ruins your momentum and makes you need to restart/think your approach. Link's not TOO much or a threat in the air though, it's more his non-sword aerials oddly enough that are mostly effective, mostly because the moves involving a sword are pretty punishable (dair, anyone?)
Ultimately, it's a game where you need to be on the ball. You need to be spaced properly so you can't be spammed to death with projectiles. Screw that up, and you'll probably be dying early. I endorse it all the time, but ftilt is a good move lol.

Id agree with the matchup being in sonics favor. After playing Tenki and some other freakishly good sonics, I came to realize that sonic can have his way with link if he doesnt understand the matchup. This is assuming that the sonic has experience with link and isnt careless. Most of sonics aerials render the gale boomerang useless, Shield dash approaching and just taking your time can really screw with links bomb game. Not to mention, sonic is fast as balls. If the link knows how to use his aerials perfectly while mixing in a perfect blend of arrow cancels and down thrown bombs, Then it's in the bag for link. For the people that that it is hard to dair a recovering sonic I lol @ you. Sonics recovery is awkward and it rarely sweet spots, It is nothing to run off the stage and dair his up B or bair stage spike him.

-Legan
Recommended Stages:

LYLAT CRUISE: I am seeing a pattern here. Once again Lylat Cruise gives Sonic a bit of an advantage in this one. Not only do they curves complement Sonics playstyle but they can also be used to reduce the effectiveness of the projectiles that Link's rely on. The platforms are also all placed well so avoiding drop bombs becomes alot easier.


Matchup Summary: 60:40 Sonic

Click to expand...

Vids Vs. Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np9NI-c3g98 - darkNES386 (Sonic) vs JoBeBononza (Link)

Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Mario

Greenstreet said:

MARIO - Character Matchup 1

Introduction
"Nintendo's ubiquitous mascot, the red-capped Mario has been hurtling over barrels and stomping Goombas since 1981, and his fighting style largely mimics those antics. As the most balanced fighter in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, like in Melee, Mario has no great strengths or weaknesses, but he does boast several useful aerial attacks, making an air game ideal for anyone using him."
It's a rivalry as old as they come. Nintendo vs Sega. Battle of the mascots. Alex the Kid couldn't handle Mario, which heralded the creation of the worlds fastest hedgehog. And as far as video games go, this is the first and so far, best chance of resolving the rivalry. Each player has their well-defined strengths and weaknesses in this matchup. Mario has a well established air game and priority advantage while Sonic has his speed, ground range and gimping. Both are quite adept on combos as well. It makes for a close fight. So let's get into it.


Behaviour:


-Mario will camp using his fireballs. He can full hop, short hop while approaching or backing off while grounded fireballs will be used to stop easy approaches. Fireballs are Marios way to control the game. They successfully slow up the match, and cause selective approaches with most characters. Though they don't have a fantastic range or damage, they are a great tool to rack up damage without any risk to Mario.

-Marios' air game is very well-developed in Brawl. Mario's N-air and B-air both have quite large priority and give Mario a big advantage in the air. Reverse aerial rushed B-airs will be used as an approach, keeping in mind that a Mario can pull out two B-airs in a short hop. Also, his f-air will be used as a spike as an off edge technique. Mario will do his best to pressure you at close range using SH nairs and advancing Bairs. Marios d-air wont be used as commonly, its priority is a lot less than Mario's other aerials. Mario's generally can afford to play aggressively in Brawl. He is a well balanced character and has enough priority to hold his own in attacking. This leads to comboing. Marios combo ability is pretty fantastic. He will use his jabs, tilts and throws as means to get into combo situations. His U-air is largely annoying and great at comboing in and out of. Their B-air can makes a semi wall of pain by short hopping it continually. Luckily Sonics spring can get us out of mario air comboing.

-This having been said, Marios ability to juggle in the air can do just as well as Sonics. And with his large priority, it really wins out.

-Mario ground game is not as strong as his aerial game. Much like Sonic, he will generally confine his smash attacks just as KO moves after racking up enough damage, with the exception of his D-smash, which comes out hard and fast, and is used in spot-dodge wars. His jab is average and can be pretty easily shield grabbed, similarly with his dash attack. Jab faking to d-smash can also work for Mario.

- Mario is a terrific gimper. The cape, F.L.U.D.D. and his F-air can all end a characters life at very low percentages. Fortunately Sonic isn't a character he can gimp easily, as will be outlined in How to Win.

- As for general gameplay, a Mario is very smart. They will play defensively (ie shield, back off) and shield grab into an bunch of aerial moves as soon as its possible. And as soon as play starts swinging against him, his cape can give him time to get out of sticky situations or simply jump out into another fireball spam session.

* There has been alot of discussion on whether the behaviour of Mario outplays Sonic or visa versa. Fireball usage and avoiding as well as ground games and aerial games of Mario against Sonic have also been discussed alot. For a Mario point of view feel free to check out this thread : HERE


Commonly Used Moves:

-Fireballs: Used commonly in a jumping approach. Clanks with our spindash/charge and gives Mario a little lag.
-Cape: Luckily there aren't too many useful applications of this move against Sonic, other than to avoid a hit.
-Up-B: Lots of priority on this move. One of the main reasons it is hard to gimp a Mario, not too many others uses against Sonic though.
-B-air: Marios love it. No one else does. Comes out really fast and has great priority and only a small lag on landing. Used alot in approaches and in combos. Avoid at all costs. Spacing is important here.
-F-smash: There's been alot of discussion on this move. So far, it does have more range then ours and has great KO'ing properties (knockback/damage). Again, avoid it at all costs and watch your spacing.
-U-smash: His other big ko move against Sonic. One of the many reasons we should stick to the ground in this matchup. Please don't fall into this.
-N-air: Just as useful as his b-air. High priority makes it difficult to avoid. Used in appraches commonly.
-U-air: Possibly the greatest aerial, capabale of mega-juggling in the air

How to Win:

"Avoid fireballs
Keep him grounded as much as possible. Utilt trades hits with his bair so it might encourage them to use it less.
Running Pshield aerials that come your way. Try if you can do shieldgrab to dthrow, it gets him in the position you want him to be (not above you)
Once he's on the ground, space with ftilts and dtilts, the former being most important because it has more range and does more damage.
Punish spotdodge or roll abusers with Dsmash, the same holds true in any match up though.
Keep either bair or fsmash nonstale for a kill at a reasonable percent.
Go for the dair gimp, it is possible, hell, even a footstooled Mario can't make it back to the edge if you do it even when he's just slightly below."
ROOOOY!

Keep it to the ground: mario aerial game is very very good. That u-air will slaughter. So try and keep it on the ground. Sonics tilts outrange and come out faster than anything mario can do effectively on the ground. So space your self and put little bits of damage on this way. If you get stuck in mario's aerials, spring out of their and spot dodge down (or if u feel confident, dair). Another alternative is to space yourself after recieving a hit and get him with the range on our b-air, but this is very situational

Gimping: at least try. There is a bit of dispute over how much sonic can gimp mario. But imo i think we are more than capable. Mario's recovery is extremely average and isn't hard to HA from either underneath or a jump out and HA to whack them off the side. From above can be risky because the odds are they will super jump punch before you can get a chance. Also if you can run off that edge after a d-throw its possible to gimp with a double fair. Its all about pickin the right gimp for the right situation. (dont go overboard and kill urself) P.S.: unfortunately these gimps can be very situational, but not at all impossible.

Other quick things: shake up your approaches. dash attack is fairly safe as it is grounded. spin shot or spindashhop depending on what kind of fireball pressure you got comin at ya. last thing to note is dont b scared to use aerials to catch them unaware. sonic is fast and has the possibility of throwing one out before mario even thinks about gettin his hi priority move out.

"Keep in mind that Mario's U-smash punishes too well, and you don't want to be in a spotdodge>d-smash war against Mario, so instead, if you end up spotdodging at the same time, jump out of the dodge or run away. If you want to attack, use tilts."
Tenki

HERE is a video of a Sonic gae vs Mario who shows the style that I am talking about. Unfortunately it's old, and the Mario isn't great, but if you had no idea what we were talking about, this shows appropriate tilts and fairly safe playing. Not great though. If you have any better vids of Mario vs Sonic, you would be a legend in my books.

Recommended Stages:

LUIGI'S MANSION: This one does favour Sonic. I soon as I started playin this matchup here I notice Mario's inability to hop and float around like he does so well. Give Sonic a higher chance of hit with SDR. Killing is the only, issue but it's like that on any level with Sonic. The building also provides covered for fireballs while you charge...taunt....whatever.

LYLAT CRUISE: It has a particularly high ceiling which counteracts Mario's U-smash and according to Matador does not really reduce the effectiveness of Sonic's U-air star Ko's. Fireballs aren't as good here because of the stage and Down-angled Fsmash offstage is harder to punish Sonic's upB when recovering low because the stage often tilts away from it. I've played Matador on this level and it really seems to either disadvantage Mario or give Sonic a massive hand. The Platforms seems to be at perfect height, the only thing to watch is make sure you don't let Mario under you, as you options can be limited.

FINAL DESTINATION: A completely nuetral level. Fireballs are easy to predict in this one. It has a relatively high ceiling and gives Sonic free reign to run around Mario a fair bit. Also the lip has potential to gimp Mario, so overall it's in our favour. Just watch Mario though, because he doesn't have any obstruction in his fireballs and you can't really come from underneath any platforms, so the priority issue is still a big one here.

NOT BATTLEFIELD: The amount of ease Mario has with aerials and fireballing is ridiculousing. Generally steer clear of this one.


Matchup Summary: 55:45 Mario

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Vids Vs. Mario
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgo3un_2aI - Boxob (Sonic) vs darkNES386 (Mario)

Marth

Greenstreet said:

MARTH - Character Matchup 6

Introduction
Marth is a character in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Marth appears in the game's opening video, standing back to back with Meta Knight. It is uncertain whether Marth has improved since Super Smash Bros. Melee (in which he was considered the second best character on the tier list, and is 3rd best on Brawl's list excluding newcomers), as he has one of the most powerful Final Smashes in the game and his Counter improved, but his standard attack combo is slower, his standard special is harder to hit with, and the range of his sword and grabs is shorter. He is 7th best on the Brawl Tier list, currently at the top of High tier.

Behaviour:

Marth is a faster attacker, with more power, more reach and loads more priority.
Defensive Marth > Offensive Marth, definately so.
You can't really touch a defensive Marth. An offensive Marth, and the lag is more punishable.
-ROOOY!

Most Marths do not recover with shield breaker. The just DI foward, second jump, side B boost, up B. If their close enough they skip the side B boost part.
-Dark Sonic

They up B early because it's better than just taking the hit and dying. They poke you with d-tilt because they have the frame advantage. They bait spotdodges with side B because it hits through it, but with very little risk to themselves. These are things that work, and things that you'll constantly run into when fighting good Marths. Yes, Marths will have different playstyles, but all playstyles are based on Marth's better moves (fair, d-tilt, f-tilt, side B, up B). The different playstyles stem from how much they use these specific moves, and how much they incorporate Marth's other moves (he doesn't really have "bad" moves, it's just that these are better) into their gameplay. You'll fight ground based approachers, airbased approachers, fair campers, d-tilt campers, Marths who use side B extremely aggressively, you name it. But these are the moves that work the best and the ones that you'll run into the most. And it's our job to do our best to deal with these highly effective strategies, and find weaknesses in them (like getting out for free on the third hit of DB with no chance of Marth following up. I believe you can get out for free after the second hit as well, and even roll behind him before he gets out of lag).

Dark Sonic


Commonly Used Moves:

F-smash: Extremely powerful move with a great sweet spot, hits slightly around Marth as well

Nuetral B Don't put your shield in the way of this or you are rooted. It'll bust your shield up something chronic.

Dancing Blade: Learn to DI out of this or avoid it in general. It is very annoying and can even be a reliable KO move.

How to Win:

I played against a Marth recently so I'll tell you what I know.
Marth can be really good at edgeguarding. Even with a spring I would get knocked away with a Fair so be careful when recovering (It starts to get predictable). If your fighting at close range and he's spotdodging, use a dsmash. I can't tell you how many times I've punished a spotdodgey Marth with that dsmash...The counter can be a pest so punish that with a grab if you can (A well timed counter is almost impossible to avoid) In this match, I find that Dsmash, Fsmash, shielding, grabbing, and gimping will be your best friends. Spacing is key to this match, so be on the ball and try to predict his movements and act accordingly. I've been messing around with pivots and they work extremely well against Marth. If he approaches with a shorthop fair, go for a backward foxtrot-turnaround fsmash. It works like a charm.

-Camalange

his ledge get up attack is horrible. you can just stand outside of its range and fsmash him, its has seriously low range and enough lag to hit him easily. you dont even need to predict it, so if he rolls onto the stage you can easily grab him. his best option is to ledgehop a f-air which although hard to punish, can become predictable.

bait his aerials. his bair and dair have pretty bad lag and you can just stay outside their range and finish him off with a bair of your own once marth attacks.

edgeguard him... dont let him get back on the stage without taking at least a ledge attack in the process. its soooo easy to time an edgehog to his upb, i he lands above you hes going to take a get up attack or a uair. if you misstime it this leaves marth on the edge. drop springs on his head.

djbrowny

as far as i can tell this match is about baiting, you need to know what he wants to do, so you can counter it.
be really agressive, so as to bait a counter, and than grab.
weave in and out of forward air range, and counter it with HA if in the air or SH fair if you are on the ground.
Shield grab all forwards: Falling air, tilt, b, and smash.
whenever you hit marth across the stage at a low angle (i.e. SC to jump to back air at 30%, follow up with running up smash, i believe it beats his airials if done early enough.
da K.I.D.

Recommended Stages:

Castle Siege- This is a great stage as it gives Sonic the option of so many angles to attack, but at the same time, removing the pressure game that Marth's often rely on.

Lylat Cruise This level has always given Sonic the advantage and for some reasons Marths, dont seem to like it + added chance if gimping their recovery


Matchup Summary: 30: 70 Marths Favour

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Vids Vs. Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCz-7EKWQJ8 - LuCKy (Sonic) vs DaniMals (Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn9RWlhsl5Q - LuCKy (Sonic) vs DaniMals (Marth) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iojvmHATC8U - LuCKy (Sonic) vs DaniMals (Marth) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lZhXBaKIJs - InterimOfZeal (Sonic) vs YangFuShang (Marth)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g76wwNnE6lY - LuCKy (Sonic) vs DaniMals (Marth) r1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1v7QoPLKWoU - LuCKy (Sonic) vs DaniMals (Marth) r2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6MrbfXXxxKM - LuCKy (Sonic) vs DaniMals (Marth) r3
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LFNRlAQhXqI - LuCKy (Sonic) vs DaniMals (Marth) r4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=u1lDR8G6ZMQ - LuCKy (Sonic) vs DaniMals (Marth) r5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXUmUoefHT8 - Anthinus (Sonic) vs KITO (Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq6wc_1NvPs - djbrowny (Sonic) vs ??? (Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IusEa73-z1I - X (Sonic) vs Dai-A (Marth)

Meta Knight
Credit to TwinkleToes

TwinkleToes said:

Metaknight entry (edit 1):

Metaknight (MK) is one of the most common characters you will encounter whether in friendlies or tournament play and for good reason. His attacks come out fast and have good range/damage/knock-back, his ground movement is fast, his aerial movement is decent, and he has multiple jumps (not to mention 3 b-move recovery options and a glide). Also, a recently discovered infinite stall for MK has emerged (more on that later).

One of MK's only true weaknesses is his light weight which makes him easy to KO on both the sides and over the top of the level. For this reason, you should generally play against him on stages that have closer blast-lines on the sides and top. Even though this also means that your recovery will not be fully utilized either, your extra heaviness will give you an edge. However, stages that have deeper bottoms (such as battlefield) are to your advantage and not his. These are considerations mainly for tournament play, but they can mean the difference between victory and defeat-- so, consider them carefully.

The actual fighting is somewhat less straightforward and considerably more difficult. At the outset you should realize that your goal will be to evade and frustrate your opponent and seize opportunities as they arise. Attempting an aggressive play-style against any decent MK will lead to significant punishment as your ground approaches will be easily out-ranged and your aerial game will likely get dismantled. If you happen to meet the occasional MK that prefers to play defensively, your best plan of attack will be a mixture of running shield-grabs and hyphen smashes, and reverse aerial-rushed (RAR'd) bairs. Doing a dash attack to MK's face is not advised, nor is approaching with any of your short range aerials for the simple reason that MK can smash/aerial you out of them without even trying.

However, it is safer to assume that MK will be playing aggressively against you, and so you will instead be looking for holes in his game and counter-attacking. This means longer games with a lot of running around, empty short-hopping, and general evasion. One of the main opportunities that you will be seizing will be the punishment of any and all of MK's b-moves. The two most common moves you are likely to see will be MK's neutral-b (for damage racking) and his up-b (for finishing). The main reason you will see these so often is because they come out fast and leave the MK player with a feeling of invulnerability. To prevent these from being used against you with impunity, you must punish every b-move you can.

Neutral-b

• Can be broken with any correctly placed aerial
• If timed right, f-smash, d-smash, f-tilt all out-prioritize
• Springing can safely break it 100% of the time
• Homing attack can work
• Spin-dashes can nullify but may result in you taking damage as well

Up-b

• Springs and dairs will be somewhat effective in stopping it
• The most difficult part is avoiding the initial hit, but when baited, the glide period is vulnerable to anything and can be aggressively chased
• Either bait the up-b by getting in close and dodging/shielding or be very mindful of staying out of its range

Side-b

• Defeated by fair
• Spin-dash can trade hits
• Extremely laggy wind-down that can be easily punished by almost anything

Down-b

• Only attacks behind MK
• When done over the ground, the invincibility/invisibility period can be indefinitely extended (known to as "infinite caping")
• Vulnerable to shield grabbing, any aerial attack, and runs the risk of MK suiciding.
• Infinite caping moves about as fast as MK runs
• Easily avoided by running to the edge MK was facing when he initiated the attack or by edge-hogging

What should be more intimidating is MK's air and ground game. Spotting weaknesses here is by no means intuitive and requires one to have either played as or against him extensively. Still, these weaknesses do certainly exist. Prime among these weaknesses is vulnerability to power shielding/shield grabbing. This is particularly effective against MK's air game as he lacks any move that is a continuous-multiple hit or good shield eater. His only way to counter your repeated shielding is one of his b-moves, and as stated previously these are all punishable. After you shield/dodge/evade his attack you should immediately counter-attack with whatever can reach him fastest. With the exception of uair, MK's aerials cannot be spammed fast enough to block a counter attack. This is because while MK's hit-boxes come out fast and leave fast, the attacks finish slower. So even when MK looks like he is ready to attack you he is still in an active state and unable to do anything other than DI. This is important both in finding openings and in continuing pseudo-combos where MK will attempt to counter-attack you.

If you get the knack of this you should begin to shut down MK's aerial game. Should he attempt to approach you more on the ground, counter by using your f-tilt or, as noted before, continuous evasion. If he begins to use only his ground game, you should note a few things. First, taking MK's back is not nearly as useful as it is against other characters. His down-smash is only vulnerable in the front since it finishes immediately after the back hit-box disappears. Second, MK's attacks are easily spot-dodged. Third, his forward smash and tilt have a rather poor angle that is very vulnerable to aerials/aerial spin dashes (ASC). If you notice forward/down smash spamming you can use ASC and aerials to counter it easily. Always be ready for an up-smash though. If MK instead does an up-smash you need to smash DI immediately out of it before that final hit connects. If you can do this consistently, you need not worry so much about the few times his up-smash will hit you.

As a final note, MK's strong recovery makes him difficult to gimp. If you want to keep Metaknight from getting to the edge you need to consider 2 things: how/when to edge-hog, MKs recover radius.

If you can, you should pressure the latter by using your spin dash jump and possibly using a dair or homing attack. This will be the time he is most vulnerable to your gimps since he cannot use his b moves without suiciding. The first option is what you'll be sticking with more though. MK has laggy landing that's pretty easily punishable at the very least by a dashing grab, possibly you could combo him or smash him. For that reason though, most MKs are going to go for the edge, you should try to predict this and edge hog accordingly.

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Vids Vs. Metaknight(old but could be helpful)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH-oipNzcak - SonicLucario (Sonic) vs SLIVRphantasm (Meta Knight)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKiwnYTihp0 - DarkNES386 (Sonic) vs Meta Ryu (Meta Knight) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBUcVZfc23I - DarkNES386 (Sonic) vs Meta Ryu (Meta Knight) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8cMeGg83DM - DarkNES386 (Sonic) vs Meta Ryu (Meta Knight) 3


Ness
Olimar
Peach
Pikachu
Pit
Pokémon Trainer
R.O.B.
Credit to TwinkleToes:

R.O.B. is a common sight at most tournaments and he tends to place very high when used by a competent smasher. He is arguably the best camper in the game due to his long range projectile attacks and exceptional down-smash. Furthermore, as the 10th heaviest character with one of the longest recoveries in the game, R.O.B. stays alive for a very long time making his defensive play style even more aggravating to deal with. A few characters can do well when played aggressively against R.O.B. Sadly, Sonic is not one of those characters. In order to expose and capitalize on R.O.B.'s weaknesses Sonic needs to adopt a measured and time-consuming play style.

First of all, even against the short-ranged and weak Sonic, R.O.B. has very little approaching capabilities. His short hop d-air is bad as yours, his short hop b-air is slow and interferes with his momentum, his n-air is too slow to start, and his ground approaches are vulnerable to aerial counter attack. He can spam f-airs quickly if he wants, but like his other aerials, they are easily shielded and punished. Still, that doesn't mean you assume the R.O.B. will only camp. If you can, try to goad the R.O.B. into mounting an offensive. Should this succeed, your aerials and aerial spin charge (ASC) should tear him apart.

Most likely though, R.O.B. will try to camp you out. He will probably be sitting on the stage a good distance from you, but if the stage is smaller he might feel safe only when hogging the ledge where he can hop and spam projectiles from. The latter is more common against characters that cannot tangle with R.O.B. off stage. Sonic, however, can play very aggressively against this sort of camping with relatively little risk to himself. Your biggest friends here are springs and d-airs. Springs will obviously keep you out of harms way, and d-airs, when properly timed, will be extremely difficult for R.O.B. to counter. U-airs are also possible as is stage spiking with your b-air. Your biggest concern once you get close to R.O.B. is his f-air spamming. As long as you make sure these don't push you back out you should be fine.

The more "bread and butter" play-style though is to simply stay on the stage, power up gyros and blast lasers. Although you can shield the lasers easily and catch the gyros with f-air, air-dodging, and pick it up with with your dash attack, you will need to mount an offensive at some point. Running straight into R.O.B. to capitalize on projectile lag may seem like the right thing to do at first, but that will only lead you to a world of problems. First, R.O.B. is very good at dodging and then down-smashing. Simple though it may be, this alone will stop a huge bulk of your attacks on a regular basis. Second, R.O.B.'s close hand game overall can be astonishingly fast. His whiffed grabs are quickly over, his d-tilt is good at shield-locking, and his f-tilt has decent speed and range (though not as good as yours). In fact, one of the only things that Sonic has that consistently beats all of this is his ASC and, to a lesser extent, side-b hop.

The reason these two are so effective is that a majority of R.O.B.'s moves have a blind spot right where his face is. The only way for him to cover this blind spot effectively is to angle a f-smash or short-hop something, which you should be able to spot before you commit to your attack. This is one time where spin canceling will actually be useful for baiting attacks. Of course, the very nature of baiting means that the initial opening is created by the defender, not the attacker. If you cannot get used to this often lengthy process of mind-gaming you will likely lose.

Two general things to note when playing against R.O.B. are that:
1) He is very vulnerable from below. You should be able to juggle him with u-air without much problem. As an added benefit, R.O.B. is slightly more vulnerable to vertical KOs than he is to horizontal KOs. Tie this in with the fact that he is poor at killing people over the top, and you realize that stages with low ceilings are much to your advantage.
2) While R.O.B. tends to use his ridiculously long recovery to simply beast through most characters' edge-guarding, he does not do so well against Sonic. If you account for the homing attack (HA) being able to block off an above stage recovery, you are basically left with a below the stage game that involves you continually pushing out R.O.B. so that he steadily uses up his fuel and eventually cannot up-b anymore. D-air spiking and b-air stage spiking are your friends here. Realize also that if R.O.B. is in his up-b state it takes him a second to be able to attack meaning there will be even greater lag in his aerial defense.

Vids Vs. R.O.B:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfR1G4VTCw - BlueTerrorist (Sonic) vs HollaAtchaBoy (R.O.B.) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkzaqlCSDek - BlueTerrorist (Sonic) vs HollaAtchaBoy (R.O.B.) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w83PMSCx_HE - Boxob (Sonic) vs The_H_Side (R.O.B.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPlqlO41DxM - Anthinus (Sonic) vs LEO (R.O.B.)



Samus

Greenstreet said:

SAMUS ARAN - Character Matchup 4

Introduction

Samus Aran is the protagonist of the Metroid series. Samus is the galaxy's most famous bounty hunter, constantly helping the Galactic Federation in their fight against the Space Pirates. She has appeared in all three Super Smash Bros. games to date. Samus has a wide array of both projectiles and physical attacks, which can be used in promising combinations. Samus is heavy-weight and ranks above middle in the speed-class. However, she is tall, which makes her easier to hit. Samus is considered to be easy to use, and with a good use of long- and short-range attacks, she can be deadly.

Behaviour:

-Against sonic samus uses tilts, aerials like landing fair and uncharged shots. Uair is a great follow up to a d-tilt at low percents. Any horizontal hit to samus will result in a MC, slowing down sonic's follow up and often allowing counter approach.

-Samus' game in this MU is to approach sonic to try and shut down his many mix-ups and lightning approach. On the other hand, she has to space well to take advantage of her tilt range.


Commonly Used Moves:
D-tilt: This is one of samus' main ko moves. Will star ko
Dash attack: One of the strongest in the game thanks to that big suit of hers. This wont pose to much of a problem of for Sonic as he is fast enough to space well.
Missiles: Learn to avoid these. We can scoot under these with an ASC, but otherwise we should assume they hurt us (sometimes clanked when stale though
U/Dair: Both are fairly common aerials and can be pretty painful when used right.
Charge Shot: Nuetral B. Will ache our approach. WE can really do much other than avoid it, similar to marios fireballs.

How to Win:

-Zair is weakest against short characters that can close gaps early, because the hitbox is always at the same height as samus, but travels along the beam (ie near the tip). In other words, if you start it at a height where it will hit a short character at a distance, it won't hit them if they are close. You can hold onto it and do a half-zair, but in many cases it is still not possible to hit.

-1. Samus has projectiles: No way!!! Yep, its true, Samus has what, 4 projectiles if you count the two different missiles. This can mean trouble for Sonic, especially in approaching. Sonics Spindashroll gets beaten by everyone of Samus' projectiles, and it's not a clank, it ends up with Sonic damage(even the sd hop). So it makes ground approaches difficult other than shielding your way in or rolling in. Spin shot is an option but I don't think there is as much control afterwards. ASC cancelling could work.

2. I think close range, Sonic is at an advantage. Our grab game is superior and ridiculously annoying and Samus's dmash is pretty slow. (not sure how it compares to ours).

3. With proper spacing there should be no reason that Sonic can't beat Samus in the air. Samus' forward air can be easily punished by a homing attack (itll stop ur motion from gettin in range of it, and punish the lag afterwards. Samus is tall so we can get her with a fair from below with a reduced chance of punishment. (as his fair comes from the top-down and his dair is slow to come out) Our d-air will get beaten by the u-b tho.

4. Sonic cannot be gimped by Samus*. Ofcourse on the odd occassion Samus may pull off a gimp on a Sonic, but it would be because the Sonic made a mistake. And due to Samus' priority on his recovery, itd be very hard to gimp samus as well, about the same difficult if not a little harder than it is to gimp mario. It's a matter of gettin that hunter further away from the stage. THis, in theory, could be achieve by a d-air semi spike or an annoying series of well time and positioned homing attacks or fairs. But its far from consistent.

5. Samus will survive longer. Having said this, Sonic is not lightweight, he is smack bam in the middle.

Recommended Stages:




Matchup Summary: 50:50

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Vids Vs. Samus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npZKjhSU9VE - Anthinus (Sonic) vs Janus (Samus) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtuhWMTtF9U - Anthinus (Sonic) vs Janus (Samus) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tix3mTHMv0g - Anthinus (Sonic) vs Janus (Samus) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T6MO_vOmnM - Anthinus (Sonic) vs Janus (Samus) 4

Sheik
Snake
Toon Link
Wario
Wolf
Yoshi
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus

Greenstreet said:

zss post here (gah samus wasnt completed )

ZERO SUIT SAMUS - Character Matchup 5

Introduction
Zero Suit Samus, often abbreviated as ZSS, 0SS or Zamus is Samus Aran without her Power Suit, and is left with her Zero Suit. Its name is taken from Metroid: Zero Mission, the first game to feature the form fitting suit. Samus is covered completely from neck to toe in a form fitting blue suit with pink lights on her back. Her long blonde hair is tied back into a ponytail with a red band. While quicker and more agile without her suit, she is also weaker, resorting to a small handgun to defend herself. Unveiled at E3 2006, Zero Suit Samus, often abbreviated as ZSS or 0SS is a character that appears in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Zero Suit Samus lacks power and stamina compared to Samus, but is faster. She uses a gun known as the Paralyzer, which can also be converted into a Plasma Whip. Her whip can be used to recover, similar to Samus's Grapple Beam.


Behaviour:

Good ZSS players, like Diddy players, won't just waste the armor pieces and throw them at you if they're in a position to be lost if avoided, unless they're purposely trying to get rid of them. D-throw/U-throw armor allows the owner of the armor to have a defensive aura/move bait (airdodge or attack done to catch it). The beginning of my matches against ZSS players usually do revolve around item control or playing around them (lol, like playing 'chicken' to see who does the move to pick up/catch an armor pieces first.
-Tenki

ZSS likes her stun gun. She has a lot of different things she can do out of it. They go for the grab often, but I've seen good ZSS's pick my early escape and hit me with another shot in the air or run to an u-smash. Either way they can use this gun effectively so it should be avoided.

The like to be aggressive after you have been aggressive if that makes sense. As soon as the momentum swings a little in their favour, a barrage of whips and aerials will rain down like fire on you. So avoid aerials as she has quick high jumps, so she can get to you fast.

Commonly Used Moves:

Side B- A pretty consistently killing move. Large knockback. THis can pose a problem for Sonic approaching with an SDR

Up B: Zamus tether and 0% killer, tho its hard to 0% kill Sonic.

Nuetral B: Her paralysing laser. THe can combo into this like crazy with grabs and aerials if they can predict your behaviour.

DownSmash: Similar paralysing function as the laser. Use for combo killing with the side b
How to Win:

Ok, the first issue is what to do with those darn armour pieces. They are high knockback and high damage, which can be a problem. I propose a couple of options (adapted from those who have posted on the subject).
1. Shield you way closer and closer to ZSS. The odds are when you approach, she'll hurl one at you. So shield it. After this you have a few options. Depending on how close you are, you can make a mad dash into a dash attack, hurt her and grab a piece at the same time. Or you can continue to shield approach. The speed of the spinshot as well will also provide a moment in time where ZSS will be relatively unable to hit you. But it should be stated that you should either use them to your advantage or just get rid of the ruddy things. I like to use them as I feel Sonic smoothness in picking up items almost unconsciously goes well here (unlike against Snakes nades).

Lets see. First thing you have to do when you start up the match is make sure you are ready to dash attack and airdodge and stuff. Why? Because a good ZSS is going to spam her armour peices like heck at the beggining of the round. So like you would when facing a Diddy or grenade happy snake, use dash attack alot to grab those metal projectile. Be wary of them also, because they bounce and can basically go really far. Basically, avoid the initial item spam, as a ZSS might try to keep it going for as long as possible
-Napilopez


An ASC-landing can clang with/eat the projectile, but F-airs are more reliable for eating the stungun. They do have pretty scary followups out-of-stun, so watch out, especially when you're at 100-130% - a fail and a stun and you're dead.

Edgehogging is nice sometimes, but don't always count on it. If she's in range of the level to down-B back to the stage, then assume she'll do it- bait it out by jumping like you're gonna go for the edge, then jump back and be ready to hit her out of it. Just watch out for the kick, since it has... very ... strong knockback, unlike a sexkick.

Her whip has a blindspot if you're too close/too low, and you can literally just run through it after that point lol.
-Tenki

The next thing I would like to outline is a bit sketchy and it involves....mindgames. Yes Sonic is supposed to be riddled with mindgames but in this scenario, mindgames are just variety. A good ZSS will adapt to how you play preeetty quickly, her moves allow her to change style from an aerial to ground fairly seemlessly. So here's the point.
Try and bait her into different attacks. ZSS's attack generally are only usable in 1 or 2 given situations, so if you fake into a situation (ie charge cancel your side b) you can trick her into doing the wrong move. And that's how you win. Say the last 3 approaches you have dashed attacked and hit ZSS, what are you going to do this stand-off, you know she is waiting for it... So dash in as far as you can an jump or spinshot, sidebhop if you have to and get in and punish the lag she has when she tries to side b you. Simplisticly explained but you get the idea.
If you are always homing attacking to punish her and she catches on hit her with an ASC...

Here's ROOOY! on some more specifics:

Try get her below the stage. Be in mind that Sonic's dair outprioritizes both her upsmash and Up B, so that's pretty good for gimping. Approaching from the air is also easier because of this.
Zamus is like one of the only characters who can gimp Sonic, which is a pain. She can do it to all characters, but be wary when recovering from a below via a spring that a Zamus can Stun Gun you to a Down B spike. Basically, don't recover too close to the stage, and more importantly use variety in your recovery techniques.
Cancel approaches a lot. This is obvious because Zamus outranges Sonic. She will knock you out of grounded approaches if you are predictable and not mix it up.
I tend to stray away from spin approaches in this match-up and bait out laggy moves like grab and Paralyzer Whip which Sonic has the speed to punish with like a dash attack or a grab, though probably the latter because I'm a grab *****.
Once you're up close, Sonic does pretty well. IIRC, her Side B (Paralyzer Whip) will not hit you if you're close to her, so rushing her for an approach doesn't seem like a bad idea.
Sonic has the speed to mess with ZSS's parts (lol) but good players throw them upwards and so make it kinda risky to move in.
The game is very momentum-based.
The beginning is crucial - if Sonic knows how to use them well and manages to take control of them, the armor pieces become a liability to ZSS. Sonic has one of, if not, the longest glide throw slides in the game, meaning he can do approaching slides while neutralizing your paralyzer, set up edgeguards to supplement his gimp game, retreat while attacking, as well as gaining a projectile to extend his reach. His speed can make taking control of items an issue.

PARALYZER...works. For the most part.

However, it is completely destroyed by Sonic's F-air. But don't feel bad, his F-air outprioritizes MK's side-B. Homing attack also tends to punish immobile shooters, so don't be TOO reliant on it.
Missed grabs are bad, but everyone knows that already. However, if he does a move with commitment to it (smashes, dash attack, initial charge to spindashes), you can grab him out of that, and accurate grabs are super effective.
Spotdodges are good, but aren't too abusable against a Sonic player, since many of his moves can cancel and have multiple ways of breaking out and punishing, or baiting moves and punishing your attacks.

You cant roll around as much as you like to against ZSS, she will punish you. Play the basics and punish her lag with smashes or tilts.

Recommended Stages:
NOT BATTLEFIELD: I hate to say it again, but battlefield has got 'strand me on the platforms' written all over it. Sure our -usmash can go thru a platform if needed, but zamus is alot taller and her whip goes alot higher then we can jump. As well as her gun, we aren't at an ideal distance, and have to stand relatively closer all the time. This increases our chances of being hit, and if we dodge it we either end up on a platform (bad) or infront of them (ok if they didnt see it coming)
So its up to you, it's just tricky to maneuvre is all.

FINAL DESTINATION: Here we are again. This one has always been good for Sonics, and almost always will be. We have enough room to dodge her projectiles and get in a spot that favours us afterwards. Just be careful, you still cant roll around as much as you used to, her whip will own you.

Matchup Summary: 60:40 ZSS

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Vids Vs. Zero Suit Samus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzuBPrfuQc8 - Anthinus (Sonic) vs DEC (ZSS)

Down B vs ICs = Stopped by Ice Shots.

That's a case for forward B.

Also note that I've been trying to work on a match-up thread myself, so if I post it soon, it's not a "My thread vs Your thread" type of thing.

So far I haven't had too much trouble against snake. You're right about whoever can get into their element first will have the advantage. I've heard ppl say that snake has the upper hand against sonic and its a very tough match up, but if you set the tone early pressuring him, then its not that hard. My friend is pretty good with snake too, so its not like he's a bad player. I like to use b air on snake, especially below stages as he's recovering since it'll knock him off his cypher. One time I heard that noise when snake plants c4 on you, so once I realized it, I ran right at snake as he was detonating the c4, blew him up and killed him haha.

How about meta knight and luigi... anyone have thoughts on those two?

i've heard luigi kills sonic. I'm gonna look into it more.

luigi is a beast against sonic. granted i don't play against luigi much (most of my experience comes from fighting against my bro's fox) but when he does choose luigi, it is a bit difficult. mostly due to luigi being better this time around i think. some of luigi's moves are fast and hit hard (fair comes to mind).

You might want add that if you fight Wario, you're ****ed.

wut

I believe you have a typo... you can SNAKE CAN use most of his moves close range after stating that you should stay close to Snake.

Boxob said:

You might want add that if you fight Wario, you're ****ed.

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... don't get me started... check out my video thread for my wario matchups with blarfenzo. In reality he beats me like 5-1 times if we exclude matches where he suicides.

darkNES386 said:

How about meta knight and luigi... anyone have thoughts on those two?

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not sure about luigi but MK is ridiculous. he can cancel nearly any of sonic's moves as long as he continues swinging and has so much priority over him. I guess the only advantage is that if you keep your distance as much as possible and wait for his moves to finish, catch him in between those frames, get him with small guerilla hits, and KO him at 100% or so...this might take awhile, just play it safe...

Spacing and speed seem to be the keys with Sonic. I tend to do 150% before I even think about trying to go for kills with Sonic, unless I do something specialized like his bair or upthrow, uair, upb, uair combo.

My Sonic tends to be okay with Luigi as long as I think, but MetaKnight almost alwyas ***** Sonic.

Sonic actually has a serious problem against people who hold the A button for no reason because of his lack of priority... wtf.

Do's
Don't be afraid to run through his Laser, I won't stop you, and you wont get much damage because you are quick enough to only get hit a few times.
Or short hop to him
Or Or spin dash through it
Or Or Or stay just out of his range (it doesn't reach the whole way across Fd) then when he moves forward or comees in to attack then move in.

Keep him in the air. Use spindash combos to get him up and then F-air and U-air him to death. Then B-air or use the spring to gimp his recovery.

If you D-air, do it high enough to cancel it before you hit the ground or the running wheel kick will castrate you.

Don'ts
Fox's ground game>sonic's ground game. Be careful on the ground, they love the running u-smash, but you do too!!!

Homing attack= Bad!!! They will dodge and u-smash you (that means u die ) Careful with spins-do not spam them, but remember being unpredictable changes this.

Opinion
Fox is weird, he's almost as fast as you, but not quite, so make sure to be careful if you try to out run him. Fox's smashes are like this= All of Fox's smashes>Sonic's attacks =So this means that you have to out manuever him. It's a hard match. Lastly, watch for his reflector, it can change the match once he's over the ledge.


hope that helps a bit.

Your Fox matchup doesn't help. Hope is overrated, it seems.

Added Pit, Metaknight and Peach.

anyone have advice for fighting a camping wolf =/

Great Post. I can't wait to try some of this stuff out.

I had one thing to add about Pit's Side-B

This thing can be a real pain if Pit hit's but you can use it against him. It takes him a while to put it away, usually that doesn't matter because most of Sonic's attacks can't penetrate it. His Forward Smash can, but the placement is difficult unless you do a stutter step.

One quick stutter step smash will send Pit flying.

Khaoz said:

anyone have advice for fighting a camping wolf =/

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Stay in his face and don't let him set up camp

Just a few little tips.

Snake's jab will eat through anything you throw at him (ground attacks from what I've seen) and you don't want to get caught in it. Fighting him up close is a bit risky if they're not the campy type.

Sonic's jab can cancel pit's arrows. I haven't tested it out, but I do remember doing it before.

have u fought a good peach? peach is one of sonics worst match ups. she has moves that can outprioritize anything sonic can do. turnips are annoying, dair goes through anything, and toad messes up ur spin dashes.

Here's mine for Luigi, he's my other main so I know the ins and out fairly well, add it if you think it's good

Luigi

Do's:

- Shield Dash Cancel, this is a godsend in this match.
- Be primarily ground based, utilizing your tilts.
- Gimp, but only after the second jump (see summary)
- F tilt can outrange him, use it ALOT.
- D Throw to Tech chase

Dont's:

- Follow him into the air...EVER. You will be out prioritized.
- Stay right next to him for too long, you will be jab cancel Up B'd.
- Approach with Spin Dash often, Fireball can cancel it or you can get F Smashed out of it.
- Stay in the air for any longer then is necessary.
- Wait around inside the range of Fireball or Luigi Tornado.

Opinion:

Whatever people say, I will always believe that Luigi, except perhaps MK is Sonic Enemy number 1. He can shut down almost any aerial attempt you make with his most of his aerials, especially his N Air. This is why you need to say grounded. Unfortunatly Luigi has some good ground game aswell. His F Smash Kills at around 90% with DI and his B Up at around 65%. But other then that you've got him beat. Your F Tilt can outrange him and you thanks to that speed of yours you can approach without much fear of fireballs, thanks to that aforementioned shield dash cancel.
Just keep your finger on the L Button incase he decides to try and pop you into the air with Luigi Tornado, beware its range (around half of FD). In the event of him getting you in the air, you can possibly get a surprise F/B Air, never D Air as in the lag you can get B Up'd. If you are ever going to Spindash, Use it right next to Luigi with Side B to make use of the invincibility frames (until the apex), but most of the time there is a better option.
When gimping, get him off with a with a F/D Smash or D throw and then wait until the second jump before gimping with either run off F Air or homing attack. You have to wait to the second jump because after that he loses the crazy height he can get off the tornado.
As always, be unpredictable with your offence and be shield happy.

Someone put up how to play against diddy kong I have a lot of trouble with banana spammers

I agree with browny about Vs. D3. I normally have little problem, unless the are walls...

=\ don't think Sonic owns Ike, dNes can give you my viewpoint about that.

messiahfreak2000 said:

luigi is a beast against sonic. granted i don't play against luigi much (most of my experience comes from fighting against my bro's fox) but when he does choose luigi, it is a bit difficult. mostly due to luigi being better this time around i think. some of luigi's moves are fast and hit hard (fair comes to mind).

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I hate having to face Luigi. He gives me fits even more than Wario. Probably just playstyle.

As an aside great to see other Christians on the boards.

Ussi said:

=\ don't think Sonic owns Ike, dNes can give you my viewpoint about that.

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im not so sure either. Every ike ive played is a spamming idiot who does nothing but quick draw and aether, so my opinion is highly skewed. although i do make short work of them every time, I havent played against any competent players who at least know about ikes b-air.

i think sonic vs the space animals is interesting. especially versus fox since his ability to camp is completely negated along with his combo potential since sonic can end pretty much any combo with his spring and being juggled it never a problem with a properly judged d-air. thier bad recovery makes it easier for sonic. i rarely send wolf users off the stage, once they get to about 70% a properly placed d-throw or dsmash + one edgehog and they generally wont make it back on.

As an aside great to see other Christians on the boards.

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It sure is!

But anyway, I'd really like to see how everyone copes with playing against a good Olimar player. I really just can't seem to figure out ANYTHING effective in handling Olimar aside from running away forever and getting in little tiny hits whenever possible.

I'll need help against Zelda.

Badakin said:

Someone put up how to play against diddy kong I have a lot of trouble with banana spammers

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Spin dashes aren't stopped by banana peels, right? And his dash attack is an easy way to pick them up. I'd assume that would make for a good approach. I've never really played against any really good Diddy players yet though.

Ussi said:

=\ don't think Sonic owns Ike, dNes can give you my viewpoint about that.

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Ike is the easiest character to gimp, no doubt. Sonic definately has more control on and off the stage in this matchup. Other than jabs and grabs, I don't really see how Ike can approach.

FrostByte said:

Ike is the easiest character to gimp, no doubt. Sonic definately has more control on and off the stage in this matchup. Other than jabs and grabs, I don't really see how Ike can approach.

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I have trouble gimping Ike... and I tend to air-dodge-->land into his smash attacks. I think my style of play begs for ike to capitalize on my mistakes

This threads a bit inactive...
Ganondorf help for all? What are match-ups like with him?

I'd like to see advice against Lucario. Guys a monster.

Lucario's an easy match up IMO. His attacks (besides Fsmash) Are low priority since he's a combo char just like Sonic. Where they differ is ease of combos and speed. I think you know who has which. All it means is that you keep pressure and watch out for the counter, occasionaly switch up sheild pressure by doing things like Nair > Dtilt > Jab > Grab. By the time he sees another attack coming, he'll be grabbed. If you have decent damage done to him, throw up and persure with a Uair > Spring Uair. He's floaty so he's incredibly easy to do this to. That's just an example of 'switching things up' though. Always change up sheild pressure so you can avoid getting countered is the name of the game. He's also tall, and vulnerable to cobos into a Bair. I think he's one of the easier match ups.

>_>

Lucario has almost as much priority as Marth *and* he has lingering hitboxes that can catch you off guard. His %=aura ability is a pain in the *** for Sonic as he won't be getting easy kills from upairs because Lucario's dair ***** him. It's best not to try to pursue him when he's above you. He is hella fun to edgeguard though. I've WOP'd a few lucarios with Sonic.

ROOOOY! said:

This threads a bit inactive...
Ganondorf help for all? What are match-ups like with him?

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Ganons slow, easy to rack up damage to. Though dont underestimate a good ganon u have to be careful of approaching him on the ground due to his down-b cancel that has an aura knock up when landing and he can side b u down and start punishing u. His side b is his bread n butter against fast opponents. from that he can combo u with a down tilt or well time forward smash. down tilt launches u up, and right in front of him so he can chase u with a fair and knock u real far out. All of his attacks hurt real bad and can ko at low %s. If he can build up around 80% on u ure pretty much next in line to die.

One more thing. A ganon that knows sonics dash attack and how he can short hop over it and use his dair, will utterly **** u. Safest to approch from air, hes has no real defense up there.

It's a shame that Sonic's one of the lighter 'middle-weights', because Ganondorf has an easy time with those more often than not. Looking at the Ganondorf boards, they seem to think that he has a slight advantage against Sonic, and I guess you'd have to agree. Being predictable, particularly on the ground, will just let Ganondorf anticipate all your moves, and punish you for it. Spindashes are fairly easy to read, really.
In fact, thinking about it, predictability coupled with awful priority really means that Sonic won't really have a lot of good match-ups..

Boxob said:

Lucario's an easy match up IMO. His attacks (besides Fsmash) Are low priority since he's a combo char just like Sonic. Where they differ is ease of combos and speed. I think you know who has which. All it means is that you keep pressure and watch out for the counter, occasionaly switch up sheild pressure by doing things like Nair > Dtilt > Jab > Grab. By the time he sees another attack coming, he'll be grabbed. If you have decent damage done to him, throw up and persure with a Uair > Spring Uair. He's floaty so he's incredibly easy to do this to. That's just an example of 'switching things up' though. Always change up sheild pressure so you can avoid getting countered is the name of the game. He's also tall, and vulnerable to cobos into a Bair. I think he's one of the easier match ups.

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You need to go up again Rock Man X

ROOOOY! said:

It's a shame that Sonic's one of the lighter 'middle-weights', because Ganondorf has an easy time with those more often than not. Looking at the Ganondorf boards, they seem to think that he has a slight advantage against Sonic, and I guess you'd have to agree. Being predictable, particularly on the ground, will just let Ganondorf anticipate all your moves, and punish you for it. Spindashes are fairly easy to read, really.
In fact, thinking about it, predictability coupled with awful priority really means that Sonic won't really have a lot of good match-ups..

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Um what?
The spindash isn't predictable at all. If you are being predictable in your usage that is a afult on your part.
Sonic has the advantage against Ganadorf since he can punish ganadorf very often and badly.
I don't understand how a character with laggy moves and is gimpable can be considered to have an advantage over a character whose specialty is in punishing and chasing.

this isn't to say ganadorf won't win against Sonic but I cannot see as to how ganadorf would be able to do a thing to Sonic unless the Sonic user was predictable and an idiot.