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Lucas matchup discussion. (overhaul in progress)

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Levitas

the moon
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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This kind of discussion has been happening in kind of a hit-or-miss way on the lucas boards, but I think it's really important to start talking about this in an organized fashion while the metagame's still taking shape.

Basically here's the deal: If we want to see Lucas take a seat in High tier, we need to start doing well in tournaments with lucas. If we want to do well with lucas, it's VITAL that we know every matchup that's likely to appear at tournaments. If you have doubts on whether or not this is necessary, consider this: at the last tournament I attended, 16 out of 48 people played Metaknight.

That means that if we can discover something to break the matchup, it's almost uarunteed that this will carry you through one more round at a tournament.So I'm going to list characters that are likely to appear at a tournament setting, and general strategies that we've discussed, and that's where the discussion will start. Bring up tactics that have worked on each character listed, and we'll all critique those strategies.

Hopefully, this will make some significant headway in Lucas's matchups, and this thread should be a great reference for people who are learning Lucas and need help.

[color="blue"This most recent update is making use of the character rankings that Ankoku's been tracking. This is based off of tournament results, so I think it's appropriate that we focus on the characters that have done well. Information on the characters not in the top 13 that were on the first page before are saved on my personal archive. Just pm me if you want information on those characters, or if you want a copy of my personal archive[/color]


[color="green"]S Rank
Snake (23 top8, 22 top4, 15 wins, 164 pts)[/color]

Snake is heavy and hits hard. Maintain medium range spacing, and spam PK fire. As long as he can't chuck grenades at you, you'll do fine. Watch for his dash attack and mortar slide, they come fast. Pay attention to the snake at ALL times. He'll get you with a C4 or mine otherwise. Don't ever close the gap or he'll get you with a jab, utilt, or ftilt and you'll die.

Edgeguard his cypher with a PK thunder moving in the same direction as him. It wrecks him. If he gets too close to the edge with the cypher, grab him out of it and DON'T pummel or throw. He'll die.

GofG's stuff:
Stay out of range of his utilt and hit him with jabs/ftilts (both clank with his utilt and you can get something out faster than he can afterward.)

Hardcorenesser notes that on smashville, mines blend with the stage.

Meta Knight (26 top8, 27 top4, 7 wins, 142 pts)
Metaknight likes to approach with fairs, run up and grab, or mach tornado at you. You can punish all three of these tactics with wavebounce PK fire. Don't spam it, use it to punish his approaches, as if he catches on, he'll just start to dodge all PK fires.

Metaknight has a lot of priority in all moves. If you see a downsmash coming, sheild, then forward tilt, or if you have time to get in the air, SH Nair at him. Watch for his f-tilt, though.

If you're on a platform, he'll almost always try to approach from below in the target zone of a Dsmash. Use that to your advantage.

From Galeon:
Last tourney I went to, every Metaknight I fought abused up-b to glide attack (possibly down smash after that but this is where mindgames come in) so the answer to that is rolling around. In a hurry so I'll mention other stuff later.

From Galeon later:
Metaknight's Up-B to glide attack is really tough to get around unless you react as soon as he does it. His glide attack will clank any attack you throw out and will get you down smashed if you're close to or on the ground when he uses it. Rolling around Up-B is a little more difficult than it sounds. If you roll past his glide attack as he's reaching the ground, Lucas's roll is slow enough that he'll get tornadoed or turn around Up-B'ed. Good Metaknights will probably go into those 2 options if they see you blocked or at low percent. Down smash is the unsafe choice for them.

What you can do is wait for the glide attack and if he's really close upon landing, you can get a full jab combo in. If he spaces his glide attack, your first jab will have knockback and push him out of range for the rest of the jabs. This is going to get you Up-B'ed. A single jab will get a bit of damage and should bait a reset of sorts if he sees he's hit and you haven't whiffed
your second jab. If he does Up-B after your single jab, it won't hit you. THIS is where rolling comes in. If a Metaknight EVER Up-B's close to you and it doesn't hit you, you can shamelessly roll behind him the second he leaves the ground. From here, you have an advantage because you can challenge his Up-B from below with an up tilt or up air. 90% of the time you'll hit him clean but if he times his glide attack perfectly, he'll clank and have fall time because you should have challenged him when he was above you. Now you can get a jab combo if he's relatively close to the ground, a grab, or possibly a bat if you got him to glide attack noticeably high.

If a Metaknight Up-B's from far away and is going for you, your goal is to run underneath him. By doing that, you're forcing a reaction because he won't be in a good position. He'll most likely aim his glide down to hit you with a glide attack. This is where your mixup comes in. You can either block and jab as he lands to setup for the situation above or challenge him with an up air or Up Smash. Up Smash (I know this is risky, I rarely ever use this move but here's it valid) will catch him if he was ready to clank with something like an up air or something as you'll slide past the range of his glide attack (behind him), if he chooses to glide past you, or will flat out trade. Playing safe would be challenging with up air.

If a Metaknight is tornado'ing close to you, then unfortunately you're going to have to take it. At close range, you won't have time to PK Fire and it will eat your shield easily. If you run away and try to shield the last few hits whe you reach the edge of the stage, the Metaknight can still safely di away so you have no possibility of punishing him. If the Metaknight is dumb and is tornado'ing to get close, PK Fire his face. But to PUNISH the tornado, yes you're going to have to get hit by it probably. As you're rising in the tornado, mash your A button
and attempt to di to either side. What should happen is instead of being launched by the final hit for about 10% damage, you'll come out of the tornado doing a neutral air. If you don't want to do that, then di and hope that the last hit doesn't get you so you can fall with him and up air him back into the air. Your biggest advantage against Metaknight is when he's above you.

EDGEGUARDING!: This is a toughy but you have to do it. The second you get Metaknight off stage, start a PK Thunder. I know you're probably thinking "But Galeon, he can tornado through my PK Thunder cause he's Metaknight and he's broken". Well right before you're about to make contact with him, start making your usual circles. The tornado cannot beat the tail of the PK Thunder. Drive that into his head. Make going low be a scary idea for him by pressuring him with PK Thunder and sending him back out horizontally with it, making it very difficult to recover. From my experiences, after enough time, they usually try to go high. But you have to remember that you have the advantage on Metaknight from below with both PK Thunder and some of your other moves.

NOT Getting Edgeguarded: Your Down Air beats Metaknight's Up-B from below you. But there is a spacing where you will trade or he will win. Practice with a friend so you can see when it's a better idea to beat him or airdodge. Feel free to mix it up. Also remember that its usually safer to come in from high above because its usually harder to get to Lucas when he's high rather than when he's low (they can just fall with you and kill you with a low percent dair).Other Notes: This has been advice on how to fight a tournament Metaknight that abuses these moves or puts you in bad situations. Against general Metaknights that try to outspace you and don't abuse B-Moves, outspace them with PK Fire. The fear of PK Fire usually lets you approach. Against the tourney-style Metaknight, you will usually be approaching only to get intercepted by Up-B or Tornado. Against the normal kind, it is still a disadvantage but it isn't NEARLY as frustrating. Lucas CAN beat the spammy type of Metaknight but it is just very difficult. You always have to be thinking about their options and react instantly to things like Tornado or Up-B. Basically, it's nowhere near unwinnable but I would suggest counterpicking unless you're just that much better or have gotten used to the timings of beating those moves. And that's coming from a Lucas main.

A Rank
King Dedede (7 top8, 13 top4, 6 wins, 76 pts)


His side b is faster than yours, but not by much. In fact, by short hopping at him with pk fires, you can use the "doppler effect" to your advantage and actually outpace him. Nairs and Dairs are good against him since he's so big. Jabs are good too. Hit him out of his up b when it's on the way down with a Usmash, or dodge it and punish the lag with an Fsmash or nair.Hardcorenesser notes that waddle doo's electricity can be absorbed for huge gains.

Mr. Game & Watch (17 top8, 8 top4, 6 wins, 71 pts)
This is a rough matchup. His bair is really tough, but if he starts spamming it, use a low pk fire once or twice. DON'T spam PK fire, he'll bucket it and kill you. Avoid his stuff, if he starts spamming any smashes with IASA frames, just grab, it's longer. Watch for his Dtilts and ftilts, they hit hard. When recovering, try not to use PK thunder ever, unless you're really far away. He'll bucket gimp you and get a full bucket (that kills almost always) out of it. use the tether whenever possible. Jumping with an airdodge can get you past a Game and Watch that chases you off the edge.

From FoxySigma:
About the G&W discussion, though I know it's beat talked to hell, you may think that spamming PKF slows him up (which it does, I usually get hit with one or two for every three I bucket) but you have to remember that dthrow-bucket is a mostly guaranteed combo, and therefore as soon as I get three I'm going to be approaching with SHAD's or shields or rolldodges until I can get a grab off, and then I'm free to bucket more.

If there's any one weakness he has is that once he buckets something he takes a ton of lag. If you know G&W is going to bucket a PKF (and chances are if his bucket is out it takes too much lag to put it back anyways, he'll either bucket it or get hit) then just fire one and run in with a shield-cancelled grab, dash attack, or aerial of your choice. GofG has done it reliably on me many times.As for other notes on the matchup (even though I don't main G&W) is that he is the single biggest counter in the game to your recovery. I can bucket PKT if you're below me (off the stage) for an instantly full bucket which I can easily land, AND stop your recovery, or I can blow you away from your PKT with my uair if you're trying to use T2 as an approach from above, and you absolutely cannot hit yourself with it at that point. Then I'm free to uair juggle you until I feel you're in good position to fall into my usmash.


Marth (17 top8, 13 top4, 2 wins, 66 pts)
No matter what Emblem Lord says, Marth is not top tier. Use PK fire a bunch, punish his laggy moves, watch for his side b, and edgeguard his up b by hitting him on his way up with a PK Thunder from behind. It'll stagespike him.
DON'T get grabbed. It's an instant 30% (at least) on lucas for all intents and purposes.

Wario (2 top8, 6 top4, 9 wins, 65 pts)
I've got nothing on this matchup yet. Please provide input.

ROB (13 top8, 12 top4, 2 wins, 59 pts)
He's heavy and he edgeguards well. Punish his dsmash by jabbing it, you'll win. if he approaches in the air, PK fire. While he's on the ground, try not to force an opening through his tilts and jabs, it'll rack up damage on you quite efficiently. More tips here are appreciated.

Pikachu (3 top8, 12 top4, 3 wins, 54 pts)

Anther flat out wrecks me. As he's the only pika I've played, someone else should talk about this matchup. One thing, though: Magnet his bolts and thunders. You can jump or spotdodge out of absorbing a bolt directly, so that will avoid his approach nicely. Anther likes to hit with the jolt and either run up and grab or SH Fair to Dsmash.

B Rank
Wolf (9 top8, 11 top4, 1 win, 47 pts)

Wolf is heavy, but once he's off the edge, you will know exactly how he's going to recover. This is because his recovery options are non-existant. Also, you can force him to approach by psi magnetting. This is useful because approaching is something that Wolf doesn't excell at. When he's approaching, watch for his high priority bairs as well as making sure you're not in range of his fsmash.

Edgeguard him by circling pk thunder in the path he will take to get back to the stage. Play defensively, and when he stops lasering, use pk fire.

From proAPC:
if wolf use his upB to reach the edge, you can use a down smash near the edge, and it will hit wolf before he can sweetspot

This is only true if he uses a few select angles, otherwise use other methods.

Falco (6 top8, 8 top4, 2 wins, 40 pts)

From Trozz:
I find d-air to be very effective when you're already close range.

From Tyr_03:
Against Fox and Falco their Up B moves can both be edgeguarded with PK Thunder by hitting them with the side of the head. The front of the head will just cancel when it hits these moves but the sides of the head outprioritize it.


From Technomonster:
1) Play extremely accurately and somewhat carefully. Falco is a buff dude and his buffest bit is his 42% chain grab to dashattackusmash combo which is gay. You can try to get out by mashing A, in which case you may neutral air or jab him if he times his janx incorrectly. Otherwise just DI and take it like a man, it won't kill you.
Falco's second buffest bit is his Backair, which is kinda like game and watch's F-air in duration range and priority, with a bit less knockback, and ***** all of your air game and ***** your johns while it's there. Falco cannot pull this off fast enough to counter your approach (but he can f-smash you tho so don't be dumb), so it's good to approach, but it's better not to PK thunder too close to the stage and get a backair to the face, and for the most part don't try to challenge him in the air, you have some good speed and priority but it's like jumping at a Game and Watch or very similar, it looks tempting but is full of **** for you and not them.

Lasers are pretty cake, shield 'em rather than trying to absorb them in a silly manner unless it's really safe and obvious. I like to try to powershield them because it makes Falco angry.

2) In contradiction to #1 go for the **** as often as possible.
Uptilt to shieldgrab ***** Falco and as far as I can tell is 100% gaurenteed lol, because Falco will always either downair or airdodge after an uptilt, and for some reason never jump. Good for 25% and maybe a good edgeguard to boot.
Falcos like to Forward B recover to the middle of the stage. This is u-smash city population Falco. Do this a few times, and he'll try to go for the ledge, which takes longer and is funny to **** with PK thunder and D-smash (Falco can be d-smashed out of his up-b and side b at the right angles at the edge).

3) Also PK Fire and f-tilt that mofo to make him tech and then tech chase and throw him off the stage or f-tilt him again whatever you like. Remember to shield as he lands out of his falling animation to stop your momentum and approach the direction you predict quickly.



Ike (11 top8, 5 top4, 2 wins, 36 pts)
Ike is my favorite matchup in the game. Wavebounce pk fires and he can't touch you. If he wants to close the gap from afar with a side b, just sit on a platform or get behind him from the air. Avoid his smashes, especially his usmash. Always recover to the edge, never onstage. Watch for his fast utilt, jab combo, and bair, and dodge everything else.

Fox (5 top8, 7 top4, 1 win, 31 pts)
Lucas's tilts wreck fox. Jabs are great, too. If he starts to laser, magnet a few. PK fire doesn't get back to you if he shines it, as long as you're wavebouncing.

From Tyr_03:
Against Fox and Falco their Up B moves can both be edgeguarded with PK Thunder by hitting them with the side of the head. The front of the head will just cancel when it hits these moves but the sides of the head outprioritize it.


Donkey Kong (6 top8, 5 top4, 2 win, 31 pts)

Input here would be great.

Kirby (8 top4, 1 win, 29 pts)
Peach (3 top8, 7 top4, 1 win, 29 pts)

From technomonster: Peach has a lot of quick moves and a lot of priority. Lucas has an advantage in the matchup, however.

1) Peach can't close distance quickly enough to accurately punish well spaced PK fire or B-sticked unless you use it in tight quarters. PKF is super spammable in this matchup. Try to match her height when she floats over to let her know that we're not playing that game.
2) Peach's best move is down-airing on your head, and she can do it repeatedly and chase your roll with a f- or b-air if she's good. You can PKT out of shield to get out of it if your timing is excellent.
3) Peach's jab is fast as **** and you won't be fast enough to grab any of her aerials if she cancels them into jabs correctly. Just wait for it and grab out of the jab, and hope your big *** head doesn't get hit.
4) D-smash is still pretty good for pressuring. Memorize the timing with shield lag, and FJ D-air to escape!
5) Land those KO moves! You can always find a way to upsmash a Peach!

This is more a battle of attrition than it is a kill or be killed matchup. Just make sure your PKFs aren't getting predicted and punished, and you aren't dropping your shield too early in her pressure strings and you'll be fabulous.


Olimar (11 top8, 6 top4, 29 pts)
Ice Climbers (4 top8, 6 top4, 1 win, 27 pts)
Lucario (4 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins, 26 pts)
Toon Link (3 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins, 25 pts)
Sonic (4 top8, 3 top4, 2 wins, 23 pts)
Pit (5 top8, 3 top4, 1 win, 19 pts)
Zero Suit Samus (3 top8, 3 top4, 1 win, 17 pts)
C Rank
Diddy Kong (7 top8, 3 top4, 16 pts)
Luigi (1 top8, 4 top4, 13 pts)
Lucas (4 top8, 3 top4, 13 pts)
Ness (3 top8, 1 top4, 1 win, 11 pts)
Bowser (1 top8, 3 top4, 10 pts)
Jigglypuff (3 top8, 2 top4, 9 pts)
Zelda (1 top 8, 2 top4, 7 pts)
Sheik (1 top8, 2 top4, 7 pts)
D Rank
Captain Falcon (2 top4, 6 pts)
Mario (3 top8, 1 top4, 6 pts)
Ganondorf (3 top8, 1 top4, 6 pts)
Link (2 top8, 1 top4, 5 pts)
Pokémon Trainer (1 top4, 3 pts)
Yoshi (1 top4, 3 pts)
Samus (2 top8, 2 pts)


One last note: If you're righting an FAQ or have one and want to use the info in this thread, I preapprove it as long as you credit this thread. If you're posting in the thread and don't want it used in FAQs, just say so and I won't move your tips to the first post. If not, I'll add the ideas to the first post and credit the contributors. That seems fair to me.
 

Trozz

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
611
Location
Canada, BC
Great post. It's nice to see a thread like this from someone who knows Lucas. I'm competing in a tournament this weekend with Lucas as my main and I've been told to watch out for snakes (who continuously win the tourney).

Another note vs Metaknight: never approach him from above. Shuttle Loop has great knockback and a massive hit area above him, so try to keep grounded. This gets particularly hard on maps like Delfino Plaza and Onett.

Vs Diddy, use his bananas against him (collect them on the ground with a dash attack or catch them in the air with n-air). Wavebouncing keeps you safe from his chimp kick. D-smash ruins his land approaches (which is usually the roll dash attack).

Vs Falco, I find d-air to be very effective when you're already close range.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
Levitas, I've been under the impression that the idea of facing a GaW is to spam PKF as much as possible, make him understand that you aren't going to stop simply because you're giving him another killing move. The fact that oil panic is absorbable for incredible amounts of damage is a plus, even if it is a very good KO move for GaW.

I'll experiment, Foxy plays an extremely mean GaW, but I'm not to the point where I'm ruling out PKF. It's too good of an approach/defense/offense/staller/pressure.

As for Snake, I wrote a fairly detailed matchup, you could probably quote it if you intend for this to become a matchup "guide" so to speak. I use jab a ton with Snake, being that for some reason it clanks with Snake's jab, and then afterwards, yours comes out faster, so it's a pretty safe move to use when up close.
 

Levitas

the moon
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Try not to let him absorb it. It kills things. However, PK fire is not any less effective as long as you don't really get bucketed.

That said, definately don't drop it from your game completely against game and watch.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
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Jul 6, 2005
Messages
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Levitas, I believe it was you who can be quoted as saying:

lol, if the G + W starts bucketing, just keep firing anyway. All you have to do is dodge the bucket, and if you're firing, you'll be out of range most of the time. That, and a game and watch will generally think "Oh, I've absorbed a PK Fire, so now that we both know that I've beaten that strategy, he'll have to move on to something else". WRONG!
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
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Location
OH
I find that Snake's recovery is best edgeguarded by sending PKT1 up through him and into the bottom of his cypher. Although this is a bit more difficult to do than sending it down and through the top of the cypher to hit him, it is more effective because the cypher cancels PKT1 allowing you to follow up with an additional PKT1. I find that going from the top down into him my PKT1 runs out shortly after and I can't usually get a second hit. Of course the case is different when he's coming from far below the stage since it's so much easier to come from the top down but when he's a bit higher up I think overall it's a better plan. Just thought I'd add my two cents on that.
 

Levitas

the moon
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lol, GofG, I've been wrong before. That is one of those times. Unless it works, in which case I'm wrong now.

Tyr 03, sounds good.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
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Jul 6, 2005
Messages
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Location
Raleigh, NC
Jab combo. It comes out faster than anything he has. Literally, EVERY SINGLE MOVE THAT HE HAS gets beaten by Lucas's jab combo.

PKF spamming doesn't work against a good snake, because there will be mines in the way. One might give the advice "just hit the mines with PKT" or "Just let them hit you, it'll open up the stage and they don't do that much damage." Don't do this. The mines are killer. You'll be at 100% before you know it, and then you're just one of snake's jab combos away from being off the edge.

No PKF means no approach, especially when snake has the 'nade that keeps you at bay. You're going to have a hard time if Snake gets away from you. You want to keep him close. Most of all, if you get on the offensive, stay on the offensive. Take control of the stage, and keep control. Keep him on the defensive, because all he has going for him at close range is his jab combo, and, as I've mentioned, yours is better.

How do you get near him for when he does slip away from you? Carefully aimed PKFs, find a position to camp where he can't 'nade you, and watch the hell out for his missile thing. If you're brave, shoot a PKT off or two. That'll scare him, if he knows what he's doing. If it doesn't scare him, even better, because you can **** him up with it. The problem is that he has more long-distance pressure techniques than you, what with 'nades and the missile.

Try to take him to a small stage. Yoshi's Island is preferable, but smashville will also work. Try to keep him from putting down his dsmash mine as much as possible, that's the real killer. For god's sake, watch where he puts his b-down mine. Keep a mental tab at all times of where that mine is, because trust me, you aren't going to be able to see it all the time.

If this snake is roll-dodge happy, then pressure his shield with nairs. A nair to ftilt will get his shield looking VERY tiny, and the knee-jerk reaction is to let up on it. If you dsmash at the right time, it will hit him, after a nair>ftilt combo. If he's at a low enough percent, he's heavy enough that it will hit him twice.

Your damage should be coming primarily from jab combos, fairs, nairs, and utilts. When you get him to a respectable damage, start being more liberal with dsmashes and fsmashes.

However, he will not die off the side until obscenely high percentages. You must ledge guard. It is extremely difficult to edge guard a Snake. I might even call it impossible to do reliably. His recovery is simply too weird. PKTs don't REALLY work, unless you can read his recovery well enough. I've tried many times to PKT a Snake out of his recovery, and you have to get the timing right, because you have to put the PKT above him. It's too difficult.

If you know when he's going to up-b, it's better to jump out there with a fair. Sure, the knock-back isn't as horizontal as you might like, but it's a start, and it'll put more pressure on him to get back.
I think we should talk about snake first and foremost. I have too much trouble with him, to the point where he's unbeatable.
 

Levitas

the moon
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Cool. I'm gonna look up who that quote's from and move it to the first post. Also, roll through mines to safely detonate them.

Ok, I see, it's yours.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
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I'll be playing Snake for about 3 hours right now. I'll take some notes instead of having to rely on memory. Notes will be posted afterward.
 

Levitas

the moon
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Jul 20, 2007
Messages
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Ann Arbor, MI
I'm using color to differentiate headers and quotes. Is that ok for everyone, or is it annoying, because I can change the quotes to traditional quote tags.
 

Mr.E

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Messages
1,520
Location
Lima, Ohio
As far as I know, most Snake players don't like to use the land mine (DSmash) anyway since it's just as likely to blow him up with it instead. You can Stick away the Nikita being flown straight at you (say to block PKFs) and run under to punish those going high for a drop.

Colors are nice and less cumbersome than quote blocks.
 

supercake

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
80
This is a fantastic idea. Some of us should go spying on the metaknight boards and like to scope out their thoughts and newest tricks, tendencies. This post should be updated frequently, and stickied if it isn't already. The lucas board should definitely concentrate almost all of its efforts on the characters who appear most often at tournies. It'd be nice to have some hard solid statistics on the amount of players using so and so character, whether in online ladders, tournies, or just the amount of posts in their forums on smashboards.

I'm pretty sure the stick can reflect snake's forward b missile.

I always think lucas lucas matchups are the hardest. Any suggestions?
 

Levitas

the moon
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lol, in the ditto just copy what they're doing that works, and if it doesn't work, then figure out why, and it won't work on you.

I'm gonna ask for a sticky the next chance I get.

Mr. E (nice name btw): Snake's Dsmash sets up for techchases and zoning nicely. He gains control over one side of the stage more easily if you have to cross in the air. However, it backfires if you get your ftilt out and hit him towards it first.
 

Galeon

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
617
Location
Miami, Florida
my post got deleted but I'll try to help.

Last tourney I went to, every Metaknight I fought abused up-b to glide attack (possibly down smash after that but this is where mindgames come in) so the answer to that is rolling around. In a hurry so I'll mention other stuff later.
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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Against Fox and Falco their Up B moves can both be edgeguarded with PK Thunder by hitting them with the side of the head. The front of the head will just cancel when it hits these moves but the sides of the head outprioritize it. Yoshi's double jump makes him not take knockback from PK Thunder until he has greater than 91% (atleast in training mode.) Ness's PKT2 can't be edgeguarded by the head of PK Thunder but can be slightly gimped by hitting him during it as it shortens the length. I find it more effective however to instead tail whip his PKT2 and then follow it up by hitting him with the head.
 

Levitas

the moon
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Let's try to restrict our comments to the characters I listed, as that will be the most useful information to take to tournaments. I'll update the first post with the new information sometime today.
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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Can it really hurt anything to have information about other characters? I'm not saying we need a full section on them but it might be useful on that one occasion where you play a less commonly used character.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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It's too much filler to have info on every character. Concentrate on hard matchups.
 

GofG

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We should remember that we're rushed for speed. We aren't trying to develope our own personal skills with Lucas; we are trying to improve Lucas, the character itself, and through it, every lucas player on the SWF community. If that goal is accomplished, Lucases will win tournaments. So no, we can't go through and figure out how to beat Ganon with Lucas when that's easy. We need to figure out how to beat the characters we will be seeing in tournaments who we have difficulty beating.
 

Tyr_03

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lol rushed for speed? First of all why is making Lucas top tier such a priority? It just means more noobs will try to learn him. I for one don't really care how popular my character is, in fact I'd prefer he be a less commonly used character because then people will be less experienced at fighting him. Second, exactly how rushed for speed are we? I mean we're posting at the speed of the internet and reading this thread takes all of about 2 minutes. I suppose I don't really have a problem with leaving some out if you don't want to clutter the thread. But I mean look back at the Melee forums at the character guides. Most of them have character match up information for every character, not just the high tier ones. Just go back and look at the Fox guides. They have entire sections on fighting Link who gets absolutely destroyed by waveshining and is generally considered a very easy matchup just as Ganondorf would be to Lucas in Brawl. If we're going to have this thread stickied is there really any reason to withold information just because you may or may not encounter a certain character? One of the good points that Brawl has is that most characters are very balanced given correct usage. How long do you think it will be until there's a good Yoshi player out there? And Ness? Simna has chosen Ness over Lucas and I guarantee will be a force to be reckoned with in tournaments. I think for a thread like this to have any longevity it only makes sense to include information on more than just the most commonly seen characters. I mean no disrespect to Gofg or Levitas or anyone else posting on this thread and I accept that it is your thread and you're welcome to put whatever you like or leave out whatever you like. I just don't see how leaving out information serves the smash community in any way. I think they can spend a few minutes of their time reading about a less popular character which might help save them in a tournament.
 

GofG

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Err, i'm equating being high on the tier list with being developed metagame-wise. I don't particularly care about where Lucas is on the tier list, but I do care about how developed he is.
 

Foxy

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About the G&W discussion, though I know it's been talked to hell, you may think that spamming PKF slows him up (which it does, I usually get hit with one or two for every three I bucket) but you have to remember that dthrow-bucket is a mostly guaranteed combo, and therefore as soon as I get three I'm going to be approaching with SHAD's or shields or rolldodges until I can get a grab off, and then I'm free to bucket more.

If there's any one weakness he has is that once he buckets something he takes a ton of lag. If you know G&W is going to bucket a PKF (and chances are if his bucket is out it takes too much lag to put it back anyways, he'll either bucket it or get hit) then just fire one and run in with a shield-cancelled grab, dash attack, or aerial of your choice. GofG has done it reliably on me many times.

As for other notes on the matchup (even though I don't main G&W) is that he is the single biggest counter in the game to your recovery. I can bucket PKT if you're below me (off the stage) for an instantly full bucket which I can easily land, AND stop your recovery, or I can blow you away from your PKT with my uair if you're trying to use T2 as an approach from above, and you absolutely cannot hit yourself with it at that point. Then I'm free to uair juggle you until I feel you're in good position to fall into my usmash.

Felt that matchup needed some rational and definite points.

EDIT: I noticed you said that his dtilt "really hurt". I just wanted to clarify that is has extremely low knockback in Brawl and can't even gimp Lucas on G&W stages like YI due to the invinvible nature of the T2 recovery.
 

Levitas

the moon
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Foxy, that's good information. I'm not going to update the first post more than once a day, but it'll be up on the first post soon enough.

Tyr, posts about other characters will be welcome, but I'm not going to move them to the first post. The intent is to make sure that the hardest matchups are addressed, as well as the matchups that one is likely to see in a tournament. The most relavent matchups to tier placement are the ones that I've listed, and whether or not you want to see lucas in high tier, I want him to have good representation by the time the first official tier lists are being made.
 

Tyr_03

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Lucas can easily do false edgeguards to get off a free PKT2 against Dedede for some very nice damage. Ademisk does it with Ness quite nicely in this video at about 1:20. So just apply the same principle for Lucas. With some practice I've been able to pull this off against Fox too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JzqGGrsUMCg&feature=related
 

HRP

Smash Rookie
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Mar 10, 2008
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This isn't necessarily a tactic against any specific opponent, but it's been helping me out lately.

If you're up against someone big and slow, like DDD or Ike, and can coax them into an FSmash, you have an opportunity to start a quick dash and go into a USmash slide. Often times their smashes are so slow that you have enough time to dash towards them, start a USmash, and slide directly 'on top' of them or behind them while they're swinging at air.
 

Trozz

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Vs Dedede: PKT can weave through minions and zap Dedede. If you hit with a PKT, it does nice damage against Dedede (since he's so huge). Just note that his hammer is higher priority, so f-tilt or d-air will kill the projectile without slowing Dedede down.

I'll have a lot more experience with Lucas in tournaments after this weekend.
 

Affinity

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hey Levitas i think you already hit on this a little and probably already know this, but its good to mention.

if you hit Pit far enough off the level without killing him and you see him start to use his Up-B recovery, PK-THUNDER HIS ***!! if you do, he'll just fall to death, not being able to do anything.
 

Deeja

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hey Levitas i think you already hit on this a little and probably already know this, but its good to mention.

if you hit Pit far enough off the level without killing him and you see him start to use his Up-B recovery, PK-THUNDER HIS ***!! if you do, he'll just fall to death, not being able to do anything.
Yup, any attack will cancel his up b, killed a pit twice like this in a tourney last Friday so this is important to know :D.
 

Trozz

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The SFU tournament was great; there was lots of wicked competition. Here's some info.

vs Fox
Fox's d-air u-tilt combo can be easily DI'd out of. Watch for Foxs who like to recover with side-b. They have just enough landing lag that you can hit them with a smash, tilt, or grab. Fox is lightweight, so you should start using your smash attacks earlier (up throw doesn't kill as early as you think due to his ridiculous fall speed).

vs ROB
Watch for his sneeze. ROB reels his head back before he shoots a laser. whenever there is any sort of distance between you and ROB, watch for the sneeze and ready the absorb. Try to stay grounded during this fight (SHs are fine); ROB's aerial attacks will destroy you.

That's about all the help I've got. I decided that Lucas isn't just my main so much as he is my opener. I might switch to Diddy or someone if I don't like the matchup (counterpick ftw).
 

ZMan

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vs. Ike
Be annoying. Spam PK Fire and wave bounce like crazy. He'll get pissed and try to approach and attack. Just punsih these mistakes with sidestep dodges and counter with smashes or tilts.And if you can live up to high %, do it. It'll just piss the user off more.

IN short, just piss the ike user off. And counter pick Frigate or Port Town if you lose.
 

Fhed

Smash Apprentice
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Reseda, California
In the tournament i recently attended, i faced a diddy kong. I noticed that he would draw out 2 bananas and throw them at me. I would then be trapped with 2 bananas in between me. Thus if i tried to tech roll i would trip. The opponent would then use his dash attack which then leads to other attacks. Thus i recommend preventing him from drawing 2 bananas out or catch them and throw them back.
 

supercake

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 12, 2008
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pk thunder ruins snake. I was camping with him and a lucas shot a pkthunder which went through my grenade, missile, mine, and still hit me, blowing up everything in the process.
 

Levitas

the moon
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That's interesting. I wonder if it's the same for Ness, who's PK Thunder is considerably better (tailwhip grenades and missiles, race to snake).

Add to that the fact that snake is far more mobile on the ground than air, and you've got a reason why Ness could cope with snake (and why lucas can too, just thinking)
 

Fishcake56

Smash Cadet
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Tampa, FL
Dedede is my greatest nemesis. I have a friend who mains him for brawl. He is a very technical player (from melee, perhaps), and his Dedede is nasty. His waddle dee spam negates and supersedes my pk fire spam. His ftilt wrecks any ground-based approaches and his inhale ability sweeps me off my feet every time. I've learned to hit in a box around Dedede, spacing fairs and dairs to prevent him from juggling me with his unbelievably cruel bair. Oh, and his five jumps are a pain too; he reminds me of a very corpulent jigglypuff who wields a big mallet.
 

Fhed

Smash Apprentice
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Hey against a good G&W, be careful when u get grabbed. U either want to DI or get ready to tech. I suggest to be ready to tech when he down throws u, G&W can jab then regrab.
 

supercake

Smash Apprentice
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There needs to be a post to catalogue how well Lucas places in tournaments. The other boards have them. Ill be playing in one tonight at school with Lucas, we'll let you know how it goes.
 
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