Finishing moves and setups: aka HOW TO KILL WITH SONIC?! [Updated: 8/30]

Intro
While playing Sonic, ever been positively sure that your next smash was going to kill just to find out that you didn't damage your opponent enough or been left wondering how you could possibly get your b-air to hit that guy for ONE last time? Well, this thread might just be useful for you!


I've taken an recent interest in playing Sonic, and noticed that alot of his moves, combos, and their usefulness in setting people up or knocking them to their deaths changes at different percents. This thread will (hopefully) become a collection of useful moves and setups that are effective at killing and at what percents they're most effective.

They don't have to be inescapable, but a chain of attacks that can kill from a certain % is good enough. Awareness of the options and potential finishers is what I'm going for.

The big focus here is this: These setups' effectiveness have limits- and the main limiters are weight and damage. A bit too much damage and your setup will fail, not enough damage, and you might end up suiciding, etc. These options can give you an idea of what and when things will work.

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Table of contents
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-Weight and Adapting to it
-Basic kill move/information Updated: 8/13!!!
-Kill movestrings/setups
- - [Under 100%]
- - - Off-platform F-air death: 30-70%
- - - Off-platform gimp: Homing Attack: 40%+
- - - Over-level KO: Spindash U-air Barrage: 50-70%
- - - ASC Combo/Over-Level KO/U-air Combo: 65-90% [Added 6/27]
- - - ASD Combo/Over-Level KO/U-air Combo: 70-120% [Updated 6/27]
- - - Off-platform KO/ASC Combo/Homing Attack gimp: 90-110% [Added 6/27]
- - - Off-platform gimp: Spring gimp / Spring Stage Spike [updated 6/27]
- - [Over 100%]
- - - Spin-dash Combo/Over-Level KO/B-air setup: 95-110% [Updated 6/27]
- - - Over-level KO/U-air setup: 95%*-130% [best at 105-115%] [Updated 6/27]
- - - Over-level KO/B-air setup: 110-115%
- - - Spin-dash combo/B-air setup: 115-125%
- - - Over-level KO/F-throw/D-air setup: 170%+
- - [Spring setups]
- - - (vs Air) Landing setup
- - - Throw setup
- - - Dash Attack setup [Added 6/27]


Weight and Adapting to it still under revisions
Most of these setups will require your opponent to be at a certain %. Of course, 100% on a Mario isn't the same as 100% on a Bowser, so you have to adjust the requirements based on character weight. These are decent estimations of how much to add/subtract from the requirements, so you have an idea of when certain moves will or will not work. Some characters have better horizontal DI than others, making them seem heavier when being launched sideways, and they will be noted here.


[-20%] Lightweight*: Jigglypuff(-25%)/Game&Watch/Metaknight/Kirby...
[-10%] Lower-middleweight : Pikachu/Ness/Lucas/Falco/Fox...
[+0%] Middleweight : Sonic(+5%)/ZSS/Samus*/Link/Marth/Mario*/Luigi*/Wario*...
[+10%] Upper-Middleweight : Wolf/Ganondorf/Snake(+15%)/Ike(+15%)/Yoshi/(+15%)...
[+20%] Heavyweight : Dedede*/DK/Bowser...

etc.

*Exceptions due to abnormal DI
-Jigglypuff has amazing horizontal aerial control. For vertical moves, treat her like she's 20-25% lighter, but for horizontal moves, treat her 10% lighter.
-Metaknight, Kirby, and Game&Watch are vertically treated 15% lighter, but horizontally treated 0-5% lighter (G&W lightest of them)
-Mario is treated 10% lighter vertically, but 10% heavier horizontally.
-Luigi is treated 5% lighter vertically and 5% heavier horizontally.
-Wario is treated middleweight vertically, but for horizontal KOs, treat him 10% heavier.
-Samus is treated 15% heavier on horizontal moves.
-Dedede is treated 25% heavier vertically, but only 10% heavier horizontally!



Basic kill move/information
Unless otherwise stated, from the center of Final Destination, with no stale-move effect, no attack-charging:

Damage is first given without DI, and with best possible DI.


Fsmash : 110% [135% with up-towards DI]
Dsmash (first hit): 120% [145% with up-towards DI]
Usmash (last hit): 170% [200% with sideways DI]
U-tilt (full triple hit): 155% [190% with down-away DI] (for star KO. It can kill off the sides at lower %'s if you're closer to the edges)
B-air: 125% (sweet spot) [155% with up-towards DI] (can star KO lower if U-DI'd in midair)
U-throw (FD height): 195% [215% with down+towards DI]

U-airs are all double hits (first+second)
U-air from full hop: 170% [190% with down+away DI]
U-air from double jump: 150% [170% with down+away DI]
U-air from top of level (double jump + spring): 90% [110% with down+away DI]
Forward ASC [ground level]: 170% [215% with down+away DI]
Further modifiers for vertical kills/star KO's: For each "Jump" worth of height, subtract 20% from the kill%, similar to the U-air info.


From the edge of Final Destination:
B-air sourspot: 140% [190% with up+towards DI]
D-air sweetspot(Aerial): 140% [210% with up+towards DI]
B-throw: 165% [215% with up+towards DI]
F-air (Final hit/"head" sweet spot): 125% (sweetspot) [200% with up+towards DI]
N-air: 130% (sweetspot vs aerial opponent) [180% with up+towards DI]
Homing Attack (person standing on edge): 170-180% [215% with up+towards DI]


Note: if you hit the person with the initial hop into u-smash, it adds alot of extra knockback so that the opponent can get launched out of the u-smash at weird angles. For damage or to do the u-smash kill, hyphen smash or time it so you avoid the first hit.

Gimp tip: Hitting with Homing Attack
If you are lower than your target, Homing Attack will move upwards and hit the person so they fly in a forward trajectory (direction you are facing).
If you are higher than your target, Homing Attack will move upwards and tend to hit the person so they fly toward you (direction you are coming from).
So if you want to hit someone forward with a HA gimp, try fastfalling first.

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And now for the moves and setups.
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-Under 100%
-Over 100%
-Spring Setups
Red: Lethal, hard to miss or hard for opponent to escape
Orange: Generally lethal, but requires a bit of mind gaming or luck
Yellow: Fairly easily predicted, dodged, DI'd or avoided, but lethal if it connects
Blue: Very situational
[]: This denotes a 'weak spot' or where your opponent can move/DI/break the combo if he's attentive.

[Under 100%:]
Off-platform F-air death: 30-70% (best at around 40-60%)
B-throw>F-air> double-jump []> F-air
[]If damage is too low or too high from the critical percents, either the hitstun will be too low or it will take you too long to catch up, so the opponent can double jump or attack. The good news is, if he double jumps, you can switch to homing attack instead of F-air, mixing it with the next move.

The optimal placement for this move is if your opponent is above stage level, in range of your first jump - that way, you can still make it back with a spring. IMO, the best time to use it is after your opponent uses a double jump and is trying to recover, and they usually double jump after a B-throw.
Assuming that your opponent is within that %, if you can hit your opponent on your way up/near the top of your first jump, you should be able to hit the 2nd jump fine.
F-AIR TIP: Your opponent can possibly DI through your f-air so they get launched from the back. You can avoid this by simply using F-air a little earlier. As long as the final hit knocks them, the setup will still be fine.

Off-platform gimp: Homing attack: 40%+ (best at around 40-80%)
F-throw>F-air> [] Homing Attack
[] Opponent must use double jump, or else this fails, but at least it leaves your recovery fine.

Most people do not double jump after F-throw because it simply doesn't have alot of horizontal knockback. They usually will double jump after an F-air though, so if you don't cancel the homing attack, chances are that your opponent will get hit by your homing attack right after he double jumps. Of course, since it incorporates homing attack, it's more likely to fail than the other combo, but it also leaves a double-jump free for use.
RECOVERY TIP: If you tap the direction towards the stage, let go, then press B, you will go in a 45 degree angle towards the stage instead of away from it if you miss. There's no difference if your opponent is in range though.

Over-level KO: Spindash U-air barrage: 50-70%[!!] [Added 4/26]
Spin-dash (hit) > Immediate U-air > [] double jump U-air > Spring [] > U-air
[] 1: If they airdodge immediately, you can still catch them with the second half of the u-air and continue the combo(!!)
[] 2: Same problem with most Spring finishers: they can airdodge as soon as they see spring, making you miss your u-air.
This one has an added risk, since it happens at such a high point- characters with moves that knock you upwards can reverse this setup and kill you, too!
Thanks to IvoYaridovich for pointing this risk out

*You can also delay after the 2nd U-air to move to the side and setup for a B-air instead. It's generally safer.


Wow. Just wow.
I really didn't think there would be another string that could kill if successfully pulled off from under 100%, but here it is! It works best if you go straight into u-air from the spindash hit - the spindash jump attack tends to send people flying too far away to be pulled by u-air. Very nice. The second U-air takes your target to the top of the screen, and your spring U-air knocks them off the level. Epic placement.
Thanks to Badakin for bringing it up!

ASC Combo/Over-Level KO/U-air Combo: 65-90% (best at around 70-85%) [Added 6/27]
ASC [first hit] > U-air > Spring [] > U-air
[] Opponent can airdodge after the second U-air, but provided that you do this right, airdodging is all they can do about it.

You can actually kill with this at a lower % if your opponent is already in the air and you catch him with an ASC. The awesome thing about this move is that it registers as a true combo! If you do it from 70-85%, it will register as a true combo and set up the heights perfectly. Higher %'s will still work, but eventually the first hit of the second U-air will not connect, so your opponent will be out of hitstun and be able to attack you by the time you use the spring.

U-air Timing tip: Try to do the U-air as soon as you see the ASC hit! If your opponent is in front of you and you catch him with the upper-front of the U-air, it will set up perfectly for the second U-air! Doing the first U-air too late will result in your opponent being sent a bit behind you!

ASD Combo/Over-Level KO/U-air Combo: 70-120% (best at around 75-95%) [Updated 6/27]
Side B hop [hit] > U-air > (can delay) Spring [] > U-air
[] Same deal as previous combo :D

Side-B's hop does a constant, low amount of damage, but it's balanced out by invincibility frames during the initial release (3-5 frames, I guess?). From 70-95%, this registers as a true combo. Again, it can kill at lower %'s, but it depends on your opponent's height and where the KO ceiling is. 100%-120%, you can use it as a juggle or substitute in a B-air, as seen later on.

Off-platform KO/ASC Combo/Homing Attack gimp: 90-110% [Added 6/27]
ASC > jump+(fast) Homing attack []
[] Can be airdodged, and depending on DI, Homing Attack can miss.

This is an interesting move, done by SonicOrochi in his tutorial video at around 9:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c&feature=related
Something cool to note is that ASC has high hitstun, so if you do a quick homing attack, it will still count as a true combo.


Off-platform gimp: Spring Gimp/ Spring Stage Spike: any %+ (140%+ for stage spike of death) [Updated 6/27]
Setup 1:
(D-throw/Opponent is under platform height)> Jump off edge > [] Spring
[] Dropping a slow moving projectile ==> easy to dodge.

Depending on the kind of recovery, this can be used in different ways:
VS limited-reach recoveries, like Fox/Falco's up-B's, you can drop a spring to send them sliiightly further away from the level.
VS Ness and Lucas, you can drop the spring so it hits their PK thunder, or you can drop it in front of them, and as we know, if PKT2 hits something, it slows down considerably.
VS Floating recoveries, like Pit and ROB, you can wear out their jumps/fuel/float with multiple spring drops.
VS Limited horizontal recoveries, like Ike or Samus up-B's, you can drop a spring on the outside, knocking them under the level.

Setup 2:
(While next to your opponent [ledge, tether, under stage... etc])>[] Spring
[] Needless to say, being next to your opponent is risky, but you CAN find situations to 'pin' them, where if they attack you, they will gimp themselves

The stage spike, or any other spring projectile-related kills are dependent on the spring's placement relative to your opponent. So if your opponent thinks it's a good idea to hang around on the ledge to try to avoid the slow-moving spring, and the invincibility frames run out as the spring is slightly UNDER your opponent, it will result in a nasty stage spike. You can also run and drop down slightly, THEN use the spring to stage spike. Pretty nice, especially if your opponent has a nasty habit of dropping down and double jumping to do an anti-edgeguard attack.


[Over 100%]
Spin-dash Combo/Over-Level KO/B-air setup: 95-110% [updated 6/27]
Side B hop/ASC [first hit] > U-air > (delay) Spring [] > B-air
[] Usual 'predictability' when springs come out, but you can use a bit of delay to either see if he double jumps or to place yourself on the opposite side. Just watch out for aggressive opponents that will attack you and make this backfire.

It's alot simpler and easier to land than the ground-based spin-dash move strings, and IMO, it's alot more reliable :D

Over-level KO/U-air setup: 95%*-130% [best at 105-115%] [Updated 6/27]
U-throw > Move under opponent > Spring [] > U-air
[] As with all throw-based setups, your opponent can DI away from this, making you have to chase, and buying him time out of the hitstun.
*On final destination, this works at 105%, but it can be lower for stages with lower ceilings.

Given that your opponent does not DI out of this, it will register as a true combo, and the only thing your opponent can do out of it is airdodge.


Over-level KO/B-air setup: 110-115% (If it's higher, you can delay the spring instead of using it right away)
U-throw>Spring [] > B-air
[] Opponent can still DI/dodge, but if you can predict their movement, you can try the u-throw setup again a second time, and the extra height from the throw will buy you time to run under and spring again :D Again, if you delay this at all, watch out for counterattacks.

If you grab starting at this % range and spring immediately after the throw, your height will be perfect for a B-air to land. Remember to move in closer to get best knockback from B-air. This also registers as a natural/true combo. Note that this does work up to about 10% less than the recorded %, but it won't necessarily kill, unless you're killing off the edge.

NOTE: Assuming that your opponent doesn't DI, this actually registers as a true combo!

Spin-dash combo/B-air setup: 115-125% [Added 4/22]
Spin-dash [hit]> Immediate U-air > Up-B [] > B-air
[] There's a small window where your opponent can DI/Dodge after you hit the U-air.

This is an interesting alternative I saw in lucky vs danimals R1 from 2:26-2:33. It's not as easy to predict and DI as the throw setup. Props to Lucky for being awesome like that.
NOTE: If you can see your enemy DI forward, you can do a diagonal-back spring to do something similar to a RAR so you can B-air 'forwards'


Over-level KO/F-throw/D-air setup: 160%+
F-throw> [] Spring > D-air (non sweetspot)
[] After your F-throw, your opponent must DI toward you for the placement to be right. Throwing them towards the edge (but don't move yourself too close to it) can help.

At the height that this happens (around double-jump height?), D-air will launch them vertically off the ceiling. Flashy move, but it's different, so it can catch someone off guard.


[Spring setups]
Generally ~110-120%+ to kill with U/B-air, F-air depends on distance to edge.
Unlike U-throw or the other moves where height changes depending on damage, the spring sends everyone the same height, so become acquainted with the height so you can catch them with aerial attacks after they get launched.

(vs Air) Landing setup: (100-130% for U-air/B-air kill) [Updated 5/09]
(Ground) Use spring under an opponent about to land > [] Aerial
[] Difficulty to position aside, your opponent can attack as soon as he bounces. This is only good against unawares.

If your opponent is spamming a SH move (eg, Ganon's thunder stomp, Ike's N-air, or some kind of slow meteor-attack type move from a recovery), place a spring under them and the spring will cancel their move and send them flying up next to/under you (depending on how early you use it). If you use it early, you can mindgame your opponent into using the spring and if they chase after you, retaliate with B-air.

[update]
Sonic has dodge/invincibility frames from the moment that he jumps (but not while he's spawning spring/standing on it), to about a little higher than full-hop height. You can use this information to your advantage and use this move to counter fast-falling moves like:

Dedede Up-B, Bowser/Yoshi Down-B, Toon Link/G&W/Ice Climber D-air, Sonic/Sheik/ZSS D-air, Falcon Kick/Wizard's foot... etc.

Throw setup: [Added 4/22]
(Spring must be set up on the floor already) > D-throw opponent toward spring > [] Position+ Up-B to intercept
[] Like other moves involving Spring under them, your opponent can react to your spring and dodge.

Note: Springs last for 4 seconds, so you might want to D-air lagcancel and catch your opponent quick if you wanna get it to work. Very mindgame-y.
SonicLucario's Sonic Rush Trailer has this setup and you can see what he does with it from 00:08-00:17.

Dash Attack setup: [Added 6/27]
Early dash attack (hit with the end)[] > Spring > aerial
[] Certain characters can hit you after the dash attack, before the spring comes out, but if you catch someone with this, chances are that they will be attacking in the wrong direction when the spring comes out.

Thanks to Anthinus for doing this combo and having it in his combo video (1:12) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4GGuRDQShw
and to KayJay for bringing it up :D

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Additions/feedback welcome.
._.; well, at the least more Sonic players can have some options and hopefully can build off from them.
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[PENDING ADDITIONS]


U-throw > u-air > u-air > Spring > u-air
--Also have to figure out which percent this works with.

:D thanks

Pretty good info on what attacks start to kill at what percentages... usually I just wait until 150% to start killing, but that's just me. And with this info, I can adjust that thought process accordingly.

But what do you mean by "u-smash starts to lose targets at 95%"?

Yeah, I was kinda like that too, waiting until high %, but then it started to get really annoying because people at high % start turning into dodge/run-beasts, and setting them up for smashes when they're in 'flee' mode is pretty annoying. The first one is my favorite, since you can surprise people with a low-percent kill lol. At a certain point, if the placement and damage% is perfect, you can get both F-airs without the person being able to dodge at all because of the hit-stun

Keep in mind that the smash kill%s are from the CENTER of final destination, so you can actually pull them off at lower % if you can bring your targets near the edge.

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Up-smash is a series of small hits that knock a person towards Sonic while dealing some minor damage, right?

(for example, at the beginning of the smash, a person on Sonic's right will be hit towards Sonic's left, then the second hit will knock the person right again, keeping the person inside the up-smash multiple hit)

At higher percents, there's a better chance of your target being knocked a bit too far and freeing them out of the combo before the last hit, and if you do u-smash out of dashes, then there's an even greater chance of losing them.
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Also, if I could 'request' moves/options, I'd like to request more off-level gimps against people lower than the platform. The spring-bombing is kinda lame since it's probably the most situational of them all, and requires a high amount of damage to get a worthy hit-stun that you might as well just kill in a different way, and as far as I know, Sonic has no meteor smashes, so that's bothering me :[

Who knows, D-air might have some interesting uses ;d

...thanks.

Some people think that Dair can spike if you hit at the very start of the animation, but it hasn't been recorded.

Theres also spindash>uair>uair>spring>uair which is what i do sometimes i guess that would go under orange but is soooo sweet when u do it

I'm with Badakin, spindash and or u-throw>uair>uair>spring>uair is awesome when everything connects. Not very easy, more like a yellow than an orange.

Thanks for the input :D

Also about the D-air and the sweetspot, if you hit at the beginning of the kick, you'll launch the person horizontally (lower angle), while normally it hits upwards.

added more stuff today, like kill info for u-air (from different heights), and b-throw/d-air from the edge of Final Destination. Also added Badakin's move it DOES kick major butt when it works, and the % that it's effective is... glorious.

Thats what im here for ^_^. about the d-air when u hit with is it like a spike? cuz ive heard about the d-air spiking but ive never tried it myself

Nah, it's not a spike. People were saying that if you hit with it near the beginning of the kick, the person flies "at a lower angle", and as soon as people heard that, they thought "OH IT MUST BE A SPIKE!"

but... no.

Normally, if you hit someone with the middle/end of the kick, they go flying at a high angle (maybe 60-80 degrees?). If you hit someone with the beginning of the kick, they'll go flying at a "lower angle" (0-10 degrees?) - pretty much horizontal, or similar to D-throw's trajectory.

The direction that they fly depends on whether they're on your left or right side of you as you're going down, regardless of which way you're facing.

WUT!? DUBLE POST!?!

pafffttt this update's worth it! XD

-Added kill info for Homing Attack/F-air/N-air (!! N-air is awesome o_O)/U-smash/U-throw (LOL SUREFIRE KILL)/, opening up 'surefire' edgeguard kill mindsets!
-Checked DI effects for all the single-move killing hits- Now you have %'s in case your opponent is a DI master! >:]
-Added some aerial spindash killing setups (moves that can start from side-B's hop or a down-b charged in midair). They're pretty simple, check them out!

luls I did a U-throw kill on a Bowser online.
I pummelled him from 200-220 damage (LOLYESOVERKILL!), threw him, and did SHFFYTS to rub it in.

So yeah, If not the move strings, the single-move kill info is surprisingly useful!

Dragonbreath said:

Some people think that Dair can spike if you hit at the very start of the animation, but it hasn't been recorded.

Click to expand...

aside from that, there is a lot we dont know about dair.

i think i need to do more testing on this. and i swear to god i canceled dair 2 different times, halfway thru the downard motion i up-b'd out of it.







I really like this kill list. its very detailed.. a pretty reliable kill move for me is Running dash into pivot Fsmash. (usually i aim Fsmash downward to give it the ability to go threw sheilds)


It would require testing on what damage it works at, but usually its kinda lower damages because the characer has to get knocked up from running dash and then come down fast enuff to meet your fsmash, of course sonic can delay the fsmash to match.. but it gives the opponent the opportunity to attack and most likely out priority sonic's fsmash... but it depends. on their bair and damage.

double post yay

Do that dance! <(*-*< ) ( >*-*)> <( *-* )>


That way you move is a mystery!

mini update- I had tested alot of the DI incorrectly and wasn't pressing the direction during the hit ;;

basically every move that had been denoted as not having any effect from DI now has a DI counterpart.

.. except Uthrow. Because it's that awesome.

Thanks to a guy named Midboss for pointing that out xD

Should be noted that the up air barrage combos for star KOs need to be taken with caution against certain characters. Twice I've been killed at a low percentage when they decided to counterattack instead of air dodge the up air. Once, by a Fox that started Fire Fox, which I was stuck in when I tried to up air him out of it, then hit off the top at 20%ish (Right after an awesome combo too none the less >.<). Second time by a Link (I think) that started his down air, and killed me off the top at 30% (This one, I probably deserved <.<). Pretty sure other characters could easily stop it too. Ike, Marth, Lucario, and maybe even Peach could probably activate their counter specials against you to KO you instead... Perhaps testing is needed? It's fun to pull off a Spindash u-air u-air up-n u-air KO, but when they start to realize "Hey, why don't I just hit him when he comes for me." it becomes more dangerous to even try =/

[]: This denotes a 'weak spot' or where your opponent can move/DI/break the combo if he's attentive.

Click to expand...

The risk is always there :x

I prefer the B-air alternatives when they are there, since U-air moves are predictable and positioning for a B-air usually keeps you off to the side where their U-airs won't hit.

That move could probably be converted into a B-air move. when you do your 2nd u-air, slide off to the side, do a reverse spring and B-air.

It's a little more complicated, DI'ing in the wrong direction means they escape, but it's safer.

I usually use b-air or f-air instead of coming directly under and using up air, and I saw that little []. I just thought it worth noting that if your opponent decided to counter attack during this combo, you can get KOed at a very low percentage =/

IvoYaridovich said:

I usually use b-air or f-air instead of coming directly under and using up air, and I saw that little []. I just thought it worth noting that if your opponent decided to counter attack during this combo, you can get KOed at a very low percentage =/

Click to expand...

Valuable words of wisdom IMO. I agree completely.

3rd on that... or Kirby's stone for that matter, xD

seriously, the first post on this thread contains a lot of info valuable to sonic user's and especially since a lot of people always cry: "SONICZ R T3H NO KILL'N MOOVZ wah"

so bump. i for one think this thread shouldn't fall off the planet.

EDIT: about the aboves posts, this further outlines the fact that above all else: i think sonic should be concerned with avoiding things.

R4ZE said:

i think sonic should be concerned with avoiding things.

Click to expand...

does that include a fully charged ddd forward smash?

boom head shot?

...

R!S3 said:

does that include a fully charged ddd forward smash?

boom head shot?

Click to expand...

Speaking of Dedede, this post reminded me that I had found better uses for the spring, which I happened to use against Dedede and Bowser.

Today's update:

Spring gimp updated! [STAGE SPIKE OF DEATH added!]
Spring setup vs aerials updated! [Invincible/dodge frames usage vs fast-falling aerials added!]

and I made the formatting more.. bold.

Didn't mention it, but I did add the caution/warning to the u-air barrage.

..have fun with that.

GO USE MOAR SPRING! >:[

btw, when I get it down, should the infinite jab-lock setup be in this thread or the useful moves/glitch thread?

the jab lock is in twinkle toes' thread, so i wouldn't worry about it

but there's no exact setup for it is there? :x

Well, I'm too lazy to test the exact jump height/effective %'s but here's the general idea:

drop the spring over/to the 'back' of the opponent (side away from you), d air lagcancel.

at the right setup (spring, damage%... etc) the spring knocks them/bounces them (they tend to not tech it, but this is usually online- either way it's not an expected knockdown) directly in front of you full of hitstun without the dair intercepting it. You're basically free to do any move you want out of it, and one such move can be the jab lock.

:x it's not exactly a killing move, but it's an interesting idea anyway.

every time I've done it, I was in the rush of battle so I AAA'd out of it instead of doing something more useful like jab lock or smash. If I add something like this, it would probably be the smash version, since jab lock is for damage and smash is... for killing.

Uh... today/yesterday's update:

- Weight changes/notes on alot of characters. I neglected to check horizontal/vertical-launching moves' differences, since characters like Jigglypuff and Wario, among others have alot of weird DI properties and can regain control earlier than other chars.
Many of these characters are treated much lighter vertically than they are horizontally. Maybe it will help you choose which kill moves to use on them? :x

Affected:
--Jigglypuff
--Kirby/Metaknight/G&W
--Mario/Luigi/Wario

Also added Wolf to the list. On a similar note, Snake is more correctly treated as being about 15% heavier than Marth/the numbers given here.

- I will be testing more characters as the week goes on. Also, the DI information is partially incorrect in that I tested opposite DI and not perpendicular DI. Added a note on that.

- Gimp tips added for Homing Attack (placement / how to get it to hit). I started putting it into practice and got much better results. Also explains why the F-throw>f-air>HA gimp works when the opponent double jumps- it's because double jumping places them above you, and hitting with HA pretty much negates the distance they covered with their double jump.

- Minor changes in %'s for the u-throw>spring>b-air combo. Btw, it actually registers as a true combo if you do all the inputs in succession!
too bad for that placement to happen, the DI has to be minimal :x

[edit]
- Something still to be tested: F-air seems to correctly have the 2nd strongest knockback, with N-air in 3rd place. However, this extreme knockback, along with the semi-spike trajectory, might be DI-dependent.

also, y is dis in pag 2? D:

Bumped for Tenki's orgasmic pleasure.

Will you be putting the ASC data in this thread or another one? IMO it is really important and should be put into a big topic/it's own one.

SUPER SONIC HUMP!!! Oops I mean BUMP!!!

Yo add that Olimar gimp I invented lol. I'll try to help out as well.

BlueTerrorist said:

SUPER SONIC HUMP!!! Oops I mean BUMP!!!

Yo add that Olimar gimp I invented lol. I'll try to help out as well.

Click to expand...

was that the spawn spring? lol if that was you, it's awesome- I do it to everyone I fight now xD

Also, for the weight testing, if you see a character not listed here, this is my test for vertical/horizontal DI/weight tests:

Horizontal: Fsmash (see how much it deviates from 110%)
Vertical: U-throw>Spring>B-air (how much it deviates from 115%).

round it to the nearest 5%.

rounding is actually alot more practical for real fighting xD

also, lol sonic is heavier than marth.

i vote sticky worthy

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170851

We should just ask for that one to be stickied.

/agreed

10char

You should note that from below the HA will go for the face of your opponent and from above it will go for his/her back. This is critical for effective use of the HA, both as a killing move and in general.

HA out of SDJ's carry frames is too good.

"carry frames"? Are you talking about the attack aura or the 'speed' frames? Either way, yeah, it's a good move, needs to be used more xD

can't test anything atm.

Gimp tip: Hitting with Homing Attack
If you are lower than your target, Homing Attack will move upwards and hit the person so they fly in a forward trajectory (direction you are facing).
If you are higher than your target, Homing Attack will move upwards and tend to hit the person so they fly toward you (direction you are coming from).
So if you want to hit someone forward with a HA gimp, try fastfalling first.

Click to expand...

Basically, that, TwinkleToes?

@.@ This needs some better color coding/bolding or something. Wall of Text makes it hard to find stuff.

When you SDJ and don't touch anything. They just kind of get carried. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Letting the second hit of SDJ hit the opponent and you DON'T use Uair or Bair? GASP! Radical thinking right? But it's actually a pretty effective knockout tool.

Oh, SDJ's attack aura.

yeah XD

before I found out about ASC, I was hellbent on trying to figure out how to use SDJ's knockback to kill people, since I was able to get a few kills with it in Delfino x.x

...back then, I felt like pulling spindash combos were too hard so I just thought "screw it" altogether and only did SDR>SDJ + double jumps lol.

Later on, I'll try to get effective %'s for this and a few other setups that came up recently:
Dash attack>spring + aerial
ASC > Homing Attack

The only problem with SDJ Homing is that the opponent can fair you in the face if they aren't in hitstun long enough. Luckily we have the HA cancel.

Tenki, that's wrong though. I'll try to restate it:
Homing attack will either go for your opponent's face or back. This is entirely dependent on whether the homing attack is released from above or below your opponent. If it is released above your opponent, it will always go for his/her back. If it is released below your opponent, it will always go for his/her face.

If the side the HA is going for is not the side closest to Sonic, it will attempt to hook around to get to it. Unless your opponent remains perfectly still or goes into the path of the attack (both of which are unlikely in a heated battle), this will result in the HA missing due to the very slow and punishable nature of the turn.

reply to next post edited in.

By "face", you mean head area, but side facing you, and by "back", you mean 'body' area, but side facing away from you?

Or do you literally mean the face and back of the opponent (like... changing depending on direction), because I didn't see any difference there ._.;

[Edit/reply to next post]
vv Yeah, basically, the 'gimp tip' I added was a watered down version of saying that. People get confused on what people mean by 'front' and 'back', so I just wrote it down to show basically where you should be if you want to hit your opponent forward or backwards >_>

Also, yes, HA does have less range behind Sonic, so if you do a B-reversal so you face away from your opponent, you'll get 'dud' shots more often.