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A tech for surviving better against Horizontal KOs
tl;dr version: air dodge to jump sooner.
First off, I don't think this has been covered in any thread, but if it has, my apologies. You can call this a technique, a game mechanic, an "advanced tech," whatever. I don't think it's terribly advanced, but that's just me. Anyways...
Many of you've probably noticed that when you get launched far by a strong attack, you can air dodge shortly after being launched, even though you can't jump or use B moves yet. If you haven't done it yourself, you may have seen an NPC do it. In any case, the point is that the game allows you to do: A) any aerial; B) your character's Z-air/Z-tether, if any; or C) air dodge, MUCH earlier than your character should come out of stun. This is why characters with Z-tethers can still tether edges as they fly by, even if they've been hit so hard they'd die. The tethering thing aside, this fact on its own won't save you. Air dodging won't slow you down, and aerials that stop your momentum or make you dive downwards stop messing with your momentum when you're launched at high speeds.
Here's the thing. As M2K mentioned in his character weight thread, doing your mid-air jump slows you down, assuming you were holding forward of course. However, if your % is high enough, your mid-air jump can come out too late, or you can die before your character even gets the chance to jump. If you air dodge (or use an aerial, but for most characters air dodging lasts less than any aerial they can use) you'll be able to do any action you want after the dodge ends, including jumping. This lets you jump sooner, and lets you last (more or less) an extra 10% against horizontal KOs. It's not a huge difference, but every bit counts. This is pretty much useless against vertical KOs though.
As far as I know this doesn't have a name, but if you guys are going to name it at least make it something relevant like "stun canceling" or "early jumping" or something.
I'd like to know if it actually is practical to air-dodge immediately, or if by the time the air-dodge ends you'd've been out of hitstun anyway.
As far as I can tell, you'll always be able to act sooner with air dodging than if you wait for stun. I have tested (and confirmed) with a handful of other characters, but I've only bothered to write down numbers for Zero Suit Samus. Here's the numbers for her:
% needed to KO ZSS if the player jumps as soon as stun wears off: 133%
% needed to KO ZSS if the player air dodges (up-air works too) and then jumps: 140%
Same as above, but replacing the mid-air jump with her Flip Jump (Down B): 143%
The attack used was Mario's D-smash against a Zero Suit Samus standing at the middle of Final Destination, no DI used. It's pretty easy to test in Training Mode. I don't see why it would vary by character, since they all have to traverse the same distance to die, and I don't think their air dodge duration varies much.
P.S. Zero Suit Samus's Flip Jump is a special case, because it activates instantly and sends her forward more than a normal air jump. Other characters don't seem to be able to use their B moves after the air dodge to improve their recovery further; they just have too much momentum and the move either fails to halt you at those %'s, or activates too slowly.
EDIT: Oh yeah, it's also a good habit to get into because you can't bounce off of walls or roofs if you're doing an attack or air dodge, or in a state of freefall. May not be wise in Teams, though, because colliding with another person will gimp your speed much more than this.
I've been air dodging after getting hit for a long time now. I didn't think it helped much but I did it regardless.
as for a name...what about DovalJump? lol
Including the air dodge and jump,
I find holding the control stick perpendicular to the way you`re being hit reduces the distance you are travel.
[Aka, Directional Influence] As opposed to holding the control stick in the total opposite direction.
I think Sonic's neutral B stops horizontal momentum. Sonic's side B also slows horizontal momentum.
It should also be noted that tether recovery characters can airdodge and then immediately up B if they're close enough to the ledge when the airdodge ends.
What I really want to know is if Sonic's up B stops horizontal momentum as well (you normally stop moving sideways when you activate it, but I've never activated it directly after a powerfull hit though). I wouldn't be able to test this myself until the weekend though.
I think Sonic's neutral B stops horizontal momentum. Sonic's side B also slows horizontal momentum.
It should also be noted that tether recovery characters can airdodge and then immediately up B if they're close enough to the ledge when the airdodge ends.
What I really want to know is if Sonic's up B stops horizontal momentum as well (you normally stop moving sideways when you activate it, but I've never activated it directly after a powerfull hit though). I wouldn't be able to test this myself until the weekend though.
@Rampage: Nah, naming it after myself would be silly for many, many reasons. Since it appears this truly was a "new" technique, and it should have a name so it can be easily referred to, I'll call it "Stun Shortening" unless there's any objections. I feel it's accurate and descriptive, and there's too many techs with "cancel" in their name to call it Stun Canceling.
@Fredd: So we're clear, I don't mean to DI the attack in the opposite direction it sends you. The correct way to DI is indeed perpendicular to the attack's usual trajectory; however, after you've been launched, you should be holding forward. If you don't, your jump won't slow you down, or, if you're at lower %'s and don't need to jump to live, you'll continue to freefall away from the edge after you become unstunned.
@Sonic Wave: You'll have to test it yourself. Most B moves don't behave properly at high speeds. For example, Fox's Reflector normally halts all aerial movement, but at high speeds, he still retains some horizontal movement, and he gets a noticeable upwards push. Your character will also usually continue to "skid" backwards even during the start-up of moves that move your character, so if the move doesn't activate immediately, it's usually useless. Fox's Reflector, Kirby's Stone and Hammer, and Meta Knight's Drill Rush and Mach Tornado all proved ineffective at stopping the character's movement.
Like I said, Zero Suit Samus's Flip Jump is an exception because it's basically a more horizontal mid-air jump. But try regardless, you might find something that works. I'm just saying, don't get your hopes up.
Me and my crew thought we found this, We named it AMC (Air Momentum Cancel). AMC was supposed to reduce the hit lag, and decrease the distance you flew. What we found out it was just a result of stale moves, making us think that AMCing made the distance you flew even shorter.
But the whole jumping part of the speculation, Its been mentioned before in various threads, as well as using midair moves to stop your ascent.
But TBH, I never thought of combining the 2, and even 3 together at once, thanks for bringing it to my attention and everyone elses
Subscribed, just so i can remember to try and work this into habit. Unfortunately this doesn't help Pit more then anyone else, but it sounds like a good habit to keep. However if i get better as Toon Link and use him more this will be useful.
Hell I already did this from time to time after a mis-timed spot dodge. ><
Just have to break the counter-intuitive nature from Melee.
I found myself intuitively doing this, even though I read that supposedly it doesn't change your momentum. After investigating why I was doing it, I noticed the jump reaction time, as Doval pointed out, but also you get to DI more during the duration of the fall. And, you get more effective DI when you aren't tumbling, right? I thought maybe that was another reason I was doing it.
All I know is when I forget to do it, I die more often, and when I do it, I'm able to come back from the brink of destruction, which is great for surprising overly cocky opponents who taunt too early, sometimes even netting me a KO if their damage is as high as mine. Thanks for confirming that I wasn't airdodging for no reason. ^^;
And, you say I can airdodge/Z-tether if I get launched past an edge and latch on? That's awesome, I've gotta give that a shot sometime @_@
Location: In Michigan with all the other Super Saiyan Pandas
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I, too, have intuitively been doing this, but I didn't know you could do an aerial to a jump instead of an airdodge (well, I guess that doesn't really matter much anyways). But I have a problem with everyone saying that airdodging, even without the jump, after getting hit doesn't matter. I might just be imagining things, but in my experience, airdodging w/o jumping does help when I get hit. So after thinking about why, I realized that the most likely explanation is that due to the airdodge being done at an earlier time than when you should be able to get out of hitstun, airdodging allows your DI to matter more. So, if I'm right, if you're not DIing when you get hit, and you airdodge, that wont help. But if you're DIing towards the stage when you get hit and you airdodge while still DIing, it will DI more than without the airdodge. Does anybody have a few minutes to test this out and see if its true?
Last edited by SamuraiPanda; 04-30-2008 at 08:55 PM.
Linear Mode
